Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

[OrangeScorpion]

The "right to decide"

There is NO "right to decide" of a few when it comes to collective matters. If a group of Catalans (who are still not in the majority in Catalonia, and who at a national level do not even represent 10% of the Spanish population) can become independent because they feel like it, why can't a group of Basques, or Galicians, or the tennis group in my neighbourhood become independent? Why can't I declare the republic independent of my house if I can get all the members of my family to agree. Don't I have the right to decide? I mean, how far can we stretch this "right to decide" stupidity? Who decides who has the right to decide and who doesn't?

This right to decide is a fallacy with which all Spanish people have been manipulated. When you see Spanish people supporting Catalans, from Madrid, Valencia etc... they are not supporting independence, no one wants the independence of Catalonia, they defend the invented right to decide. A responsible state cannot encourage this kind of nonsense that jeopardises the unity and sovereignty of a nation and therefore leaves all the citizens of that nation defenceless.

In international law, the only right that allows a region to become independent is the "right of self-determination", as far as I know, which protects colonised regions and also nations that joined in the past so that they can now claim their independence. And this right also protects historic nations (and Spain is one the oldest of all European nations) from foreign influences and local powers that want to destabilize a nation through any process of independence. This right may apply to Scotland or Ireland, but not to Catalonia, which was never a colony, nor was it ever a nation. The only way to achieve independence in Catalonia is to invent this "right to decide" that puts all nations at international risk if this right begins to be applied as legitimate.

I don't understand laws, I'm learning at a forced pace to understand a little what's going on, but if there's someone reading this who's a lawyer maybe can explain better than me what all this: the right to self-determination and the crimes of rebellion and sedition. Because when I listen to jurists, they talk about rights and crimes that are fundamental to the protection of peoples, and I would like to know if that is really the case.

 

[OrangeScorpion]

You said that a few times in recent posts OS. What evidence is there for this?

Yes, I don't know if it will be conclusive evidence for you, but I have no doubt that the images of the police beating the Catalans that were broadcast all over the Western world have been the key to the growth of independence. And not only did Rajoy's national government not prevent it, but it was he who ordered this attack on the population and then protected the Catalans from maintaining this image of victims.

- During the interrogation of Jose Antonio Nieto, Secretary of State, in the trial, he declared under oath that there was a meeting, 3 days before of referendum, between Rajoy and Puigdemont, where Rajoy tried to convince Puigdemont to hold a popular consultation in the town squares. This is because a popular consultation in the street is not a crime in Spain, but by the time the polling stations are used, the forces of law and order must already intervene. While Rajoy calmed the Spaniards by assuring that there would be no referendum, all he could do was beg Puigdemont not to force him to take the police out into the street. That is the power that the president of our nation has, none.

- At the trial, it was confirmed that the Rajoy government prohibited the Police and the Guardia Civil from broadcasting videos showing how they were attacked or insulted by pro-independence citizens on the day of the referendum. The images were incorporated as evidence in the trial. Why would Rajoy hide images that could improve his image and that of the police forces and counteract even a little the image of a fascist and oppressive state that Spain was giving to the world?

- And the third point, Rajoy's Minister of Finance, Mr. Montoro, first stated that there would not be a referendum, when there was one he assured that it was not paid with public money, finally in the trial he had to admit that public funds could have been used for the referendum, but that he would have been deceived by the Catalans. That is to say that supposedly the Rajoy government lost money that was used to make this referendum, I think that currently the Attorney General's Office is still investigating what happened to this alleged diversion of funds. I don't think we'll ever know the truth, but it's hard to believe that Montoro, who controlled all the money that the Treasury moved, wasn't aware of this deviation of funds.

Days after the police violence in the referendum, the working class clearly joined the independence movement, for the first time the tractors of the peasants accompanied the independentists.

As I mentioned earlier, independence was off lately, at the last "Diada" in September there were 600,000 people, 40% less than in 2018. In 2014, they reached 2 million. And now, once again, after the police violence it has become again today, Friday, a massive movement.

But apart from this, in general, the facts show, in my opinion, that the national government has never stopped the Basque and Catalan independence movements, above all, the national right has always been falsifying clashes against Catalan and Basque nationalism, and they participating in the circus, but the reality is that since the Majestic Pact in 1996 between Aznar (national right) and CIU (the independentistas when they were still right-wing) that allowed Catalonia to increase its competences, both in Catalonia and the Basque Country have not ceased to obtain privileges, and we speak of decades of pacts between the national right and the Basque and Catalan nationalisms that it pretends to fight.

And as I mentioned earlier, this is a problem that comes from the regime of 1978 itself. The electoral law created in 1978 rewards nationalists over the rest of the political parties, a nationalist vote is worth more than a vote to another party, so that the Basque and Catalan minorities have always been over represented in the national parliament and therefore the party that wants to govern and does not have an absolute majority has to govern with them, and keep them satisfied.

 

[OrangeScorpion]

Why would the national government want to do that?

I don't think it's about what the national government wants, I think it just follows orders, I haven't given it the acronym of any party because they are all, before it was Rajoy (right) and now we have Pedro Sánchez (left), and whatever, it's the whole Spanish party system that serves an elite that has its own agenda, apart from the Spanish, and seems obsessed with giving prominence to local powers to generate conflict. And this agenda seems to be totally at the service of foreign interests. I totally share the vision of @l apprenti de forgeron

Spain is a kind of American-Zionist protectorate without own power. What the spectacle of separatism shows is the desperation of all local politicians to destroy the Spanish nation-state to give way to a European federalism of small regions. A totalitarian monstrosity, but that can start effectively in Spain, since its ruling classes are totally pro-EU and without any attachment to their own country.

The idea of using federalism as a tool to destroy European nations is something that many journalists and thinkers have long advocated. I give as an example an article by Leo McKinstry from 2016., in English.

It is not a question of whether federalism is good or bad, I don't care, I think it is a question of whether there is an agenda to establish federalism in Spain and whether it is only the beginning for the project of "the Europe of the regions". Because then federalism is not going to be good for Spanish people, nor for Europeans.

Regarding Spain, it is really surprising to see how the entire Spanish party system defends federalism in recent years. All of them. Even the Catalans. Even the population. More and more people speak directly of federalism as a better option than independence. Pierre, for example, has commented on her Catalan friend who thinks the same thing. And it's really curious how the population is more than ready to accept this federalism.

With regard to Europe, there is a whole series of regional funds aimed at injecting money into small regions in Europe, and with that they create associations, collectives to promote regional identities. This is already happening. I will bring links, I do not want to be heavier, but finally I will share here in a future message what has been published in Sott in Spanish on all this federalism and Europe of the regions.

And to end the final surprise that left us three months ago the president of Spain, Pedro Sanchez, speaking openly and for the first time of the "Europe of the regions:

He talks about Europe being Peace and overcoming national egoisms, that soberness must be shared, that Spain needs a great transformation, that Catalonia is not solved with Spain but with Europe... that the local territorial perspective of Europe is vital... that Catalonia has to enter into a federal Europe...

Could the current Catalan crisis be the push Pedro Sánchez needs to carry all this out? I don't know, they have fanned this fire many times and then put it out.

In 2017, with the crisis of the referendum, until the Financial Times reported that Spain was going to change the constitution to resolve the Catalan conflict and in the end they did not dare to take the step. I don't know if it will be now. Wait and see.

 

[Gaby]

What do our Hispanosphere members think of all this?

For as distant as I would like to have kept from the entire drama, a couple of things stands out for me from a foreigner's perspective who has lived in Italy, France, Spain (Balearic Islands, Navarre, Valencia, Aragon and now Catalonia).

First, the language issue. For instance, the language protection of each community (i.e. Catalonian) is something that is protected by the Spanish Constitution and it is even specified that it is important for those who have a public office role to know the language of the community. You would think that is an argument that Spain could highlight in their favor in this whole affair. After all, countries like France committed "linguicide" back then so that now the French speak in French. For example, southern regions of France used to speak Occitan ("la langue d'oc"), which is very similar to Catalonian. Still, Catalonian survived well in Catalonia despite temporary historical restrictions and nowadays all Catalonians are bilingual. I've talked even with far left teenagers who speak Spanish fluently despite the fact that they express themselves better in Catalonian.

It's amazing that Spain has managed to protect the different regional languages as it did. Yet, what I noticed is that even more division is created for something that is protected by the Spanish Constitution. I can sense a divisive force behind the whole affair just from this alone.

Second, even though the Iberian peninsula is fairly homogeneous, I can't help but notice a "genetic difference" sense of feeling that's at play and/or played. I've stumbled upon maps while searching something entirely different (i.e. some references about medieval Europe in the book "In Search of Zarathustra") and noticed a "border" crossed over not necessarily Barcelona, but the upper region in Girona and along the Pyrenees. This is where the heresies reached, i.e. Cathars, Bogomils, etc. I work in this region and sometimes I think and joke to myself that the pro-independence movement is genetically inherited. It was with their grandpas, parents and it will be with their descendants. I see people in this region more similar to people up the Spanish border than to any other culture that I've ever met in Spain. I've learned to appreciate both Spain's and Catalonian's positive traits and it's heart-breaking to see the divide. Images such as the Catalonian flag along the Spanish flag in historical scenes such as the glimpse of one which I caught when I saw at a Queen Live concert in the 80s will remain like a fond memory.

Despite the madness, I still see people from all different backgrounds hanging together, making a pretty good effort to be helpful to each other and treat everyone with respect. This is a big contrast from my uprising. And as long as I have the opportunity, I will continue treating each population with great appreciation and respect, for what they are and for the learning opportunities they have brought me, regardless of their choices. I often wake up and still feel grateful that I decided to cross the pond and meet this land and people, however they are labelled. Retrospectively, I highly appreciate European culture and hope that the best of them and at least to some degree, will survive the turmoil now and ahead.

 

[Pierre]

I've stumbled upon maps while searching something entirely different (i.e. some references about medieval Europe in the book "In Search of Zarathustra") and noticed a "border" crossed over not necessarily Barcelona, but the upper region in Girona and along the Pyrenees. This is where the heresies reached, i.e. Cathars, Bogomils, etc. I work in this region and sometimes I think and joke to myself that the pro-independence movement is genetically inherited.

I've a lot of sympathy for Catalans too. I remember how the last French Cathars escaped French inquisition and found shelter in Spanish Cataluniya. Belibaste was one of them. On both sides of the French-Spanish borders, they shared the same languages, genes and heresy.

I think that those genetic and socio-cultural specifics are still there, albeit diluted. Though I'm wondering if the socio-cultural factors i.e. identity, are the main motivators of the current independence movement. After all, Catalunian culture is alive and well. I've been in Barcelona for two weeks now and seen plenty of Catalan-only schools, Catalan language everywhere, Catalan culture widely displayed.

When I talk to locals, it seems the prime reason for supporting independence is not cultural/social but economic, basically they say 'we are a rich region, if we become independent, I'll get more money at the end of the month'.

I can't blame people for thinking this way especially when you know the high cost of living in Barcelona. But, would the indepenence increase workers wage? I'm not sure about it.

So it seems that some Catalunyans do want independence, mostly for economic reasons. Now is that all? Are we witnessing a purely grassroots movement?

The idea of using federalism as a tool to destroy European nations is something that many journalists and thinkers have long advocated. I give as an example an article by Leo McKinstry from 2016., in English.

It is not a question of whether federalism is good or bad, I don't care, I think it is a question of whether there is an agenda to establish federalism in Spain and whether it is only the beginning for the project of "the Europe of the regions". Because then federalism is not going to be good for Spanish people, nor for Europeans.

Regarding Spain, it is really surprising to see how the entire Spanish party system defends federalism in recent years. All of them. Even the Catalans. Even the population. More and more people speak directly of federalism as a better option than independence. Pierre, for example, has commented on her Catalan friend who thinks the same thing. And it's really curious how the population is more than ready to accept this federalism.

With regard to Europe, there is a whole series of regional funds aimed at injecting money into small regions in Europe, and with that they create associations, collectives to promote regional identities. This is already happening. I will bring links, I do not want to be heavier, but finally I will share here in a future message what has been published in Sott in Spanish on all this federalism and Europe of the regions.

That is so true. I witnessed this process first hand. My current stay in Barcelona is not the first one. In 2000-2010, I was a manager in high-tech industries located in Marseille region. One of our funding was FEDER, a European fund (dozens of billions of euros) mostly dedicated to support the development and international cooperation of European regions.

That is, as a representative of Marseille region, I could NOT cooperate with other French regions (despite our cultural, linguistic, geographic and historic proximity and hence potential synergies). Instead I was cooperating with Barcelona region (Spain), Milan region (Italy) and Porto region (Portugal).

What I noticed during those years of European projects and professional trips to Barcelona is how much privilege and connections Barcelona had with Europe. Although FEDER is supposed to re-balance regions wealth, and Barcelona was the richest of the four of us, Barcelona was systematically getting the most funding, the leadership and the less work. For years, European money has been poured in Catalunya.

Ten years later, I can see that the European projects for Barcelona were fruitful. Today, Barcelona is a modern, rich, economically independent region. Economically, Catalunya doesn't need Spain anymore, quite the contrary.

The project for a federal Europe is even older than Europe. It aims to replace old European nation-states by a federation of European regions. From a EU perspective a federation makes sense, the less power and sovereignty to the nation-states, the more power to Bruxelles non-elected technocrats.

But I don't think European policies are only designed to maximize power of European leaders. Behind this war against nation-states there is a clear ideology, where Catalunya, Madrid and Brussels 'leaders' are just pawns.

I think this is the good same old materialist, globalist, individualist, predatory clique that is pulling the strings. And nation-states are one of the last obstacle standing in the way of their agenda. Although nation-states are built upon violence and myths, Roger Scruton describes the essential role played by nation-states (the whole article is worth reading):

national sentiment is, for most ordinary Europeans, the only publicly available and publicly shared motive that will justify sacrifice in the common cause – the only source of obligation in the public sphere that is not a matter of what can be bought and sold. In so far as people do not vote to line their own pockets, it is because they also vote to protect a shared identity from the predations of those who do not belong to it, and who are attempting to pillage an inheritance to which they are not entitled. Philip Bobbitt has argued that one major effect of the wars between nation states in Europe has been the replacement of the nation state with the 'market state' – the state conceived as a firm, offering benefits in exchange for duties, which we are free to join or to leave as we choose. (See The Shield of Achilles.) If this were true, then the nation, as an identity-forming community, would have lost its leading role in defining political choices and loyalties. Indeed, we would have emerged from the world of political loyalty altogether, into a realm of self-interested negotiations, in which sacrifices are no longer accepted, and perhaps no longer required. But if the present crisis has convinced us of nothing else, it has surely brought home to us that the capacity for sacrifice is the pre-condition of enduring communities, and that when the chips are down politicians both demand sacrifice and expect to receive it.

In light of Scruton words, isn't it tragic to witness a number of Catalunyans embracing independence for economic reasons? Ditching the national community for 'freedom' while the national community was their last shield against the very predation they think they are escaping?

So, will Spain be the new Yugoslavia? In any case, we see the same kind of individuals who disintegrated Yugoslavia at work in Spain (see this article I wrote in 2018). We see Soros and co. who deeply infiltrated the EU and spread its federalist border-free agenda. Soros and co. in bed with the antifa movement who play a major role in the current riots.

The difference between the Yellow Vest VS Catalunya movement is striking. A grassroots movement VS coordinated movements (identical professionaly made signs, concomitant marches to Barcelona, timed demonstrations), a deeply repressed movement VS a mostly tolerated movement, a national and social movement VS a local and mostly economic movement...

But the most striking difference is probably the media treatment (including to most extent RT) where the Yellow Vests were described as violent, illegitimate, minor, disruptive, manipulated, infiltrated while the Independence movement is described as peaceful, major, legitimate, independent.

As far as ideology is concerned it's also worth mentioning that Spain is one of the most Christian countries in the world, that alone is probably enough to trigger the wrath of Mammon and its materialist emissaries.

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, " "Those who would give up national community, to purchase a little temporary wealth, will get neither national community nor wealth. "

 

[Alejo]

I can't blame people for thinking this way especially when you know the high cost of living in Barcelona. But, would the indepenence increase workers wage? I'm not sure about it.

I have been thinking about this very thing, it has to be a part of the promise in order to sell the idea of independence: "Madrid is draining our pockets, imagine if that wasn't the case! We'd have so much money!!"

But, let's think about it... 80% of the goods sold by Catalonia are sold to the rest of Spain, should Catalonia become a new nation, Spain would probably look for those goods elsewhere. Would they be allowed into the Eurozone? considering that in order for a new nation to become a member, all existing members have to approve their entry, one would suspect that Spain wouldn't, so they would be out and so would be held, one would think, to higher tariffs and duties to do commerce with European nations.

I am not sure how this works entirely, but the debt that belongs to Catalonia, as part of Spain once the break took place, I'm sure someone would come and collect it. I also heard that the national government buildings in Catalonia have a cost that would, in the event of a secession, be owed to Spain.

It may sound like, hey we're rich so let's leave and we'll remain rich and be even richer. But when all these tiny and not so tiny little details start to show up, the hypothetical brand new Catalonia would be a brand new nation born in debt and without many friends. And that's just the kind of nation bankers love.

This happened once before to Spain, back in the 19th Century, when all the American viceroys decided (with some English help) it would be an amazing idea to seek independence because, since they were soo rich in resources and the peninsula had just been invaded by Napoleon, they would be awash in gold and silver and things would be dandy. Places like Mexico and Lima had so much money and we're so well placed trading with Europe and Asia at the same time, that they'd constantly joke that the king should come and rule in one of their cities, because they were worthy of a king unlike Madrid.

That turned out horribly, the minute the independence was "won" the english came and robbed the treasuries, took the riches, came to collect the money they lent for the wars and to provide new loans for the brand new baby nations, who became a mere backyard.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is that the logic of, we're rich now.. going at it alone will only mean we get to keep more, misses a lot of the nonlinear dynamics that govern such moves and provided some outside "assistance" it usually ends with an outcome opposite to the one imagined or desired.

 

[Niall]

That the police handling the rebellion are officially Catalan has been mentioned a few times now, so I think it should be pointed out that after the failed referendum attempt in October 2017, when many Mossos d'Esquadra (Catalan police) defended locals against attacks by Spanish riot police, Madrid replaced them with personnel brought in from the rest of the country...

Spain to purge Catalonia police force of pro-independence officers

Spain’s interior ministry is finalising plans to purge Catalonia’s police force of pro-independence officers who could obstruct the rollout of direct rule over the rebellious region by the Spanish government from Friday.

Besides a replacement for Mossos d’Esquadra police chief, Major Josep Lluís Trapero, Spain’s authorities are also preparing to take over the control of Mossos units seen as likely to remain loyal to the Catalan authorities...

 

[Niall]

Ok, so we've got some clues now about why (roughly 50% of) Catalans seek independence: there is something of a 'natural fault-line' because of the region's cultural make-up and history; they are generally wealthier than the rest of Spain; and they are perhaps reacting - since the mid-2000s - to Spain/the EU's ongoing economic crisis by 'going tribal' and 'building a wall of protection' around themselves.

All in all, these are weak reasons for any group of people to 'rise up against their oppressors'. Catalans are not oppressed by Spain; if anything, they are 'overly-privileged by Spain'. Maybe, as Joe suggested, Catalans are reacting - like everyone else - to the general malaise people feel about the state of the world in general, so the idea of independence is attractive to them because it seems like a nice, neat 'solution' to their sense of disempowerment caused by things beyond their control (globalization, terrorism and the increasing totalitarian controls).

However misguided, selfish or 'libtard' we may judge secessionist Catalans to be, violent suppression of democratic expression - 'legal' or otherwise - breeds discontent. The Spanish state is at fault here, so don't confuse common practice for 'what is right or justified'. Remember these scenes from October 2017:

Regarding a 'grand plan' to split Catalonia from Spain, I don't give much weight to external forces seeking this.

For starters, neither ordinary Catalans (nor whatever wealthy backers they have) will succeed. Unless Catalans are prepared to take up arms to fight for independence, they're not going to get it. And because their grievances are not deep and 'real' enough, they will not win a battle of wills against Madrid/the EU/NATO, none of which want Spain broken up.

This isn't a comparable situation to China/Hong Kong or Russia/Ukraine, where Western finance/govts have strong interests in antagonizing geopolitical rivals by capitalizing upon local fault-lines. And the EU does not want more member-states. It's complicated enough to run with 28 of them.

 

[thorbiorn]

The other thing to consider here, from a broader perspective, is the number of protests occurring in recent weeks around the world. Hong Kong, Iraq, Lebanon, Ecuador, Chile, France (yellow vests and more recently fire service members) 'extinction rebellion' (everywhere). So there seems to be something 'in the air' these days that is motivated, at least in part, by something that is not limited to any specific grievance, but rather specific grievances are being used to give vent to some other kind of collective 'angst'.

Collective angst may be a subconscious awareness of being alive in this time of transformation with some part having an idea of the significance.
Saturday night there was:
From Barcelona:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185636834799509509

From Belgrade:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185605326105657344

From Lebanon:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185629190961414149

 

[Pierre]

No doubt there is local discontent, no doubt there is a specific cosmic context, but does it discard the influence of some puppets masters?

Regarding a 'grand plan' to split Catalonia from Spain, I don't give much weight to external forces seeking this.

How to reconcile the hypothesis of a purely grassroots/spontaneous uprising with the Soros Foundation directly funding the independence movement already five years ago?

In 2014, George Soros’s Foundation, Open Society Initiative for Europe, funded organizations fighting for the independence of Catalonia. This is what La Vangardia revealed last year (2016).

According to internal documents the Soros Foundation provided:

27,049 dollars to the Consell de Diplomàcia Pública de Catalunya (Catalonia’s Council for Public Diplomacy in Catalonia), an organization that Catalonia’s Generalitat [Translator’s note: this is the institutional framework for Catalonia’s independence] established with different private partners; and - 24 973 dollars to the Centre d’Informació i Documentació Internacionals a Barcelona (the Barcelona Centre for International Information and Documentation, which we will call “BCIID”). BCIID is an independent think tank.

The BCIID is playing the role of the Premier Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs for the “Generalitat of Catalonia”. It is defending every issue from the same perspective as Hillary Clinton.

Source

 

[Niall]

No doubt there is local discontent, no doubt there is a specific cosmic context, but does it discard the influence of some puppets masters?

Sure, that is always in play, but only at the margins. I think we tend to overestimate their influences.

Case in point:

According to internal documents the Soros Foundation provided 27,049 dollars to the Consell de Diplomàcia Pública de Catalunya (Catalonia’s Council for Public Diplomacy in Catalonia)

That reminds me of the 'bombshell proof of Russian meddling': that a Russian clickbait farm 'funnelled hundreds of dollars' into ads on social media during the US election. First they massively inflate agency, then they misattribute whatever agency is in play to Putin/Russia, when in fact internal, structural factors largely account for the division in the US.

 

[Niall]

A couple of things Putin said in his interview with Oliver Stone earlier this year seem relevant to this discussion.

On protest movements/activism in the US:

Oliver Stone: You know, young people in America, sometimes, they are different.

Vladimir Putin: Young people are different everywhere.

Oliver Stone: They are spoiled to some degree in the western world.

Vladimir Putin: It depends. The older generation always says that about the younger generation.

Oliver Stone: Yeah, I know, I know. That’s true. But I don’t know what is going on with the American culture. It’s very strange right now.

Vladimir Putin: Is there an American culture?

Oliver Stone: As you know, I’ve been very rebel all my life. Still am. And I have to tell you, I’m shocked by some of the behaviours and the thinking of the new generation. It takes so much for granted. And so much of the argument, so much of the thinking, so much of the newspaper, television commentaries about gender, people identify themselves, and social media, this and that, I’m male, I’m female, I’m transgender, I’m cisgender. It goes on forever, and there is a big fight about who is who. It seems like we miss the bigger point.

Vladimir Putin: They live too well. They have nothing to think about.

By which he means, they have no real suffering to work through/ameliorate collectively. It has been substantially bleached from their lives.

And then, on 'influencing political outcomes':

Oliver Stone: [...] the world has degenerated in these two years, with all this backbiting and accusations, dirty fighting.

Vladimir Putin: There are no rules at all. It is no holds barred.

Oliver Stone: Well, you have rules. You say no interference.

Vladimir Putin: I have principles.

Oliver Stone: Ok. But you seem to have rules based on those principles.

Vladimir Putin: Well, yes.

Oliver Stone: Ok. Well, you are fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

Vladimir Putin: Why? You mean, because of these principles?

Oliver Stone: Yes. If you knew something about the election, it would tilt the balance in a very weird way.

Vladimir Putin: I think this is simply unrealistic. I have said so many times.

Oliver Stone: What is unrealistic?

Vladimir Putin: To change anything. If you want to return to US elections again – look, it is a huge country, a huge nation with its own problems, with its own views on what is good and what is bad, and with an understanding that in the past few years, say ten years, nothing has changed for the better for the middle class despite the enormous growth of prosperity for the ruling class and the wealthy. This is a fact that Trump’s election team understood. He understood this himself and made the most of it.

No matter what our bloggers – or whoever’s job it is to comment on the internet – might say about the situation in the US, this could not have played a decisive role. It is sheer nonsense. But our sympathies were with him because he said he wanted to restore normal relations with Russia. What is bad about that? Of course, we can only welcome this position.

Oliver Stone: Apparently, it excited the Clinton people a lot. The Clinton campaign accumulated the “Steele dossier.” They paid for it. It came from strange sources, the whole “Steele dossier” issue. Some of it comes from Ukraine. They also went out of their way, it seems to me, with the CIA, with Mr Brennan, John Brennan, and with Clapper, James Clapper, and Comey of the FBI. They all seem to have gotten involved, all intelligence agencies, in an anti-Trump way.

Vladimir Putin: They had levers inside the government, but there is nothing like that here. They applied administrative pressure. It always gives an advantage in countries such as the USA, some countries of Western Europe, about 2 percent on average, at a minimum.

Oliver Stone: Two percent? What are you talking about?

Vladimir Putin: Yes. According to experts, those with administrative pressure can apply always have a 2 percent edge. You can look at it differently. Some experts believe that in different countries, it can vary, but in countries such as the United States, some European countries, the advantage is 2 percent. This is what experts say, they can be wrong.

Oliver Stone: I do not know. I heard of the one percent, but it seems to get more like 12 percent.

Vladimir Putin: That is possible, depending on how it is used.

I think what Putin was suggesting is that Western govts - and/or other agencies working through Western govts - can influence political outcomes at the margin. But that's it. They don't literally control the minds of millions of people in all situations and at all times!

(4DSTS can, but that's a different story.)

 

[Pierre]

That reminds me of the 'bombshell proof of Russian meddling': that a Russian clickbait farm 'funnelled hundreds of dollars' into ads on social media during the US election. First they massively inflate agency, then they misattribute whatever agency is in play to Putin/Russia, when in fact internal, structural factors largely account for the division in the US.

Does the alleged funding (hundreds of dollars) of ads by a Russian clickbait farm really compare to the documented direct funding of independist movements by the Soros foundation whose meddling in other uprisings is vastly documented?

But fair enough, let's assume that those 27,000 euros is not enough proof. Although we should assume that most support is hidden, is there any other evidence of Soros involvment? Here is what I found in about 30 minutes from Spanish sources - I don't even speak Spanish:

- 24 973 dollars from the Soros foundation to the Centre d’Informació i Documentació Internacionals a Barcelona (the Barcelona Centre for International Information and Documentation, “BCIID”). BCIID is an independent think tank. The BCIID is playing the role of the Premier Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs for the “Generalitat of Catalonia”.
Source

- There is Omnium - more than ten million received in subsidies from public funds -, Irídia - quilombo de Podemos and Colau -, Novact - more than 95% of its income is obtained through grants from Catalan institutions and, has created the Spanish Agency for Development Cooperation - and the Institut de Drets Humans de Catalunya, whose 59% of revenue, 88,066 euros, come from direct grants, coming more than half of them from George Soros
Source

- in 2016, a single Soros collaborator, related to the OSF, charged 50,000 euros for a conference organised by the separatists.
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- Soros' Open Society’s, who apart from financially supporting the separatists, in an official internal document lists the 'antiglobalist' Pablo Iglesias, leader of the Spanish Communist Party Podemos, as an ally of the globalist foundation
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- Open Democracy (separatist website) and its leaders Guillermo Vasquez, funded by Soros' Open Society
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- Artur Mas (separatist leader) hired, through the Council of Diplomacy (Diplocat) and the Catalan embassy in New York, the International Independent Diplomat (ID) lobby, founded in 2004 by British diplomat Carne Ross, but funded by Open Society Foundations. Independent Diplomat (ID) is the same society that designed the legal framework for the self-determination of Western Sahara - former Spanish colony - South Sudan and Kosovo. He also advised in 2013 the Syrian rebels who faced President Bashar Al Asad. But relations between ID, which works under the auspices of Soros, and Artur Mas are not exclusively philanthropic. ID, in two years came to receive 1.6 million euros from the Catalan Government.
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- Secret meeting between Pedro Sanchez and Soros in June 2018. The same month Sanchez was nominated prime minister of Spain.
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- Soros has also recently acquired numerous properties in Barcelona. Through Inmobiliaria Hispania, he now owns 213 apartments and 230 parking spaces in Diagonal Mar, the neighborhood that was created to be a model neighborhood for the popular classes. Next step is buying buying tourist apartment buildings and hotels. With the current trouble, hotel prices will sure go down.
Source

From the above, I think it's fair to say that there are external forces at work in the Catalunyan independentist movement. Now, do they play a major role?

It's difficult to say. But I can see how they shaped Western societies over the past decades, how they engineered numerous colored and non-colored 'revolutions', so I don't underestimate them.

 

[Joe]

This right to decide is a fallacy with which all Spanish people have been manipulated. When you see Spanish people supporting Catalans, from Madrid, Valencia etc... they are not supporting independence, no one wants the independence of Catalonia, they defend the invented right to decide. A responsible state cannot encourage this kind of nonsense that jeopardises the unity and sovereignty of a nation and therefore leaves all the citizens of that nation defenceless.

I agree with this. People tend to periodically lie to themselves that they "live in a democracy" when in fact it is clear to all that we live in a limited democracy where we elect people to "take the hard decisions" for us. It's a bit silly to only accept that on a conditional basis, i.e. on the condition that elected representatives always act appropriately and do what we like. Sure, it's a nice idea, but in reality, when you give power to individuals to make decisions for you the way they see fit, it's very unlikely that they are gone to cede that power back to the people when it suits the people.

- At the trial, it was confirmed that the Rajoy government prohibited the Police and the Guardia Civil from broadcasting videos showing how they were attacked or insulted by pro-independence citizens on the day of the referendum. The images were incorporated as evidence in the trial. Why would Rajoy hide images that could improve his image and that of the police forces and counteract even a little the image of a fascist and oppressive state that Spain was giving to the world?

I think you're looking for conspiracies here where a more prosaic explanation fits better. The answer to your question is in the article you link to. Videos were not released because the Madrid govt. wanted to calm the situation rather than inflaming nationalist sentiment by exposing the violence of protestors. Also, they received the videos 1 day after the referendum took place, so there was little point in releasing them. They WERE used however in the court case that eventually lead to the jail sentences for independence leaders.

Catalunya has always had an independent streak, it has a vibrant language of its own and a sense of its own separate identity and culture. Only the basques have a similar level of separateness, and the history there shows it. The chances for a drive for Catalan independence coming to the fore were always pretty high, and I agree that a big part of that is political leaders in Catalunya looking to an increase in their own positions of power, but ideology plays a big part too, among the politicians and the people.

When the police beat Catalan heads at polling stations in 2017, many Catalans were outraged. Since then, that outrage has been bubbling away under the surface. The recent prison sentences given to the leaders was always going to reignite that flame of indignation and lead to protests. No "manipulation" was necessary. This is pretty normal human reaction stuff.

I seriously doubt anyone consciously wants the break up of Spain, certainly NOT the Madrid authorities, but that doesn't mean they aren't going to act in ways that is counterproductive to their goals. Politicians do that a lot, especially in these times, and historically, when there are widespread public protests, governments have no other plan other than to send in police and beat heads.

I don't think the Catalan people deserve independence, simply because they are not suffering enough, or suffering at all in any significant way. As I said previously, there is something 'in the air' that is causing people to get antsy across the globe: Hong Kong, Iraq, Lebanon, Ecuador, Chile, France (yellow vests and more recently fire service members) 'extinction rebellion' (everywhere).

It seems to me that many people are experiencing a kind of anxiety or restlessness that may be the result of a general awareness (and an accurate one) of 'something' being wrong with society and/or 'something' coming 'down the pipe', but they have no conscious awareness of what that is, exactly. As a result, they end up projecting that angst onto something they CAN identify as the source.

 

[OrangeScorpion]

Regarding a 'grand plan' to split Catalonia from Spain, I don't give much weight to external forces seeking this.

With all due respect, I don't believe that there is a great plan to split Catalonia from Spain, I don't think any power group has ever had that goal. What I believe is that there is a great plan to federalize Spain and the Catalan conflict is one of the tools to lead people to accept this federalism.

Considering that the Spanish oligarchy (and this includes the Catalan oligarchy, separating them is a mistake, in my opinion) works for external forces, regardless of each one's objectives, the outcome will be the same.

So we can get the "external forces" out of this equation and we have the same picture: the Catalan conflict has been manufactured to serve a certain purpose. It is already an open secret among serious Spanish analysts that Spain is heading towards federalism. The greater the chaos and division, the better the horizon for taking this step towards federalism, because people are very fed up and want a solution NOW. The plan is really Machiavellian because the Spanish oligarchy is not going to have to impose federalism on the people, but they are going to cry out for it. Catalans included, of course.

For those who don't know, on November 10 we have presidential elections in Spain... Is anyone including this point when analysing the current crisis in Catalonia?

I think what Putin was suggesting is that Western govts - and/or other agencies working through Western govts - can influence political outcomes at the margin. But that's it. They don't literally control the minds of millions of people in all situations and at all times!

I totally agree, which is why we cannot predict what will happen in Spain in the coming months, but that does not mean that we cannot analyse the plans of the Spanish oligarchies and clearly see that the conflict in Catalonia is totally instrumentalised. IMHO