Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

NO WAY was it 100's of thousands.

I remember some of the Independence marches that Actually were 100's of thousands ,
and the Helicopter wold show the Crowds,
not just a few shots from Chosen angles.

The fact that they LIE,
tell's you a big truth.
The EL PAIS Video is even Claiming a MILLION.
( This is propoganda at its worse.

And for all those maligning the UN-Named catalan elite,
Even if they actually exist,
they cant be worse than the Madrid Cabal , that use main stream media to Outright LIE.
 
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
And for all those maligning the UN-Named catalan elite,
Even if they actually exist,
they cant be worse than the Madrid Cabal , that use main stream media to Outright LIE.
Click to expand...

Oh yes how they can - their greed driving them to extort more from a smaller turf... Just like in Crapatia
 
Another example of pathocracy. The independent republic of Catalonia seems to have started with actions that are not very fair. Embezzlement of public funds destined to the most disadvantaged of society.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2017-10-31/independencia-cataluna-govern-desvio-fondos-asuntos-sociales-montar-hacienda-catalana_1469836/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ECDiarioManual
 
Madrid often use the Guardia civil dogs as a Political Police.

We will see if any charges are bought.

They have used this tactic often in the past.

Have you read the comments ??

"Catalan Nationalism is a CRIME, viva Espana ""

The ridiculous Irony of bigots.
 
Like there is any difference in changing master in Madrid with master in Barcelona. People seem to very easily forgett about the experience of other "nations" in same endevours, or did they ever cared until it came on their doorsteps? Think it is the latter.

SocietyoftheSpectacle, nice choice of words.
 
Corvinus said:
Like there is any difference in changing master in Madrid with master in Barcelona. People seem to very easily forgett about the experience of other "nations" in same endevours, or did they ever cared until it came on their doorsteps? Think it is the latter.

SocietyoftheSpectacle, nice choice of words.
Click to expand...

ARISTOTLE.

"No community of civilised men under a single government can exceed in size the number of citizens that can be within earshot of a single Herald"

I refuse to give up hope,
and believe that the smaller states become ,
( Iceland being the best example )
The more chance people will actually get intellectually involved with the politics that affects them directly.
Some call it Anarchy , using that word in it's most pejorative terms,
neverthless, I still refuse to give up hope in mans basic decency.
 
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Madrid often use the Guardia civil dogs as a Political Police.

We will see if any charges are bought.

They have used this tactic often in the past.

Have you read the comments ??

"Catalan Nationalism is a CRIME, viva Espana ""

The ridiculous Irony of bigots.
Click to expand...
The Catalan politicians are just as corrupt and oligarchic as centralists. They are the same crap. The problem is the state of parties or partitocracy; but you think that the separatist faction are different. Wrong. Further you carry the belief that destroying Spain to generate mini-states (smaller for the benefit of the elites) would be better for the people. Wrong again. And by the way, forming a small state is something of right wing since it dissolves the mutual interests of the working class, breaks the unions and all the solidarity struggle in common.
Seems that you are still a follower of some corrupt and Francoist authorities - maybe you do not know, but the Catalan oligarchs were the most francoist - and that can lead you to a bad path, since the belief in lies corrupts. What must be overcome is the system of state parties, because otherwise there will be no collective freedom or democracy (separation of powers and representation of the voters) never. The Spaniards must go against centralists and separatists at the same time, dodging the opposite polarities scheduled, for the good of all. I know it must be difficult to be in that place and maintain a good mental hygiene of all the madness around you, but I think some good exercises to get away from mass hysteria are to begin to abandon the victimist narrative and the treatment of politics as if were a football match between Madrid and Barcelona...I really hope that things go well and violent clashes will not occur in Catalonia.
 
The Spaniards must go against centralists and separatists at the same time, dodging the opposite polarities scheduled, for the good of all.


Shall I hold my breath ?
 
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
The Spaniards must go against centralists and separatists at the same time, dodging the opposite polarities scheduled, for the good of all.


Shall I hold my breath ?
Click to expand...
I do not know. But chaos is growing, and unforeseen things can happen. While some seditious leaders are being imprisoned, all the slaves demand again vote, vote and vote to the lists of the antidemocratic state parties. It is difficult for the slaves be freed of their political beliefs and the programming about these issues.
 
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Corvinus said:
Like there is any difference in changing master in Madrid with master in Barcelona. People seem to very easily forgett about the experience of other "nations" in same endevours, or did they ever cared until it came on their doorsteps? Think it is the latter.

SocietyoftheSpectacle, nice choice of words.
Click to expand...

ARISTOTLE.

"No community of civilised men under a single government can exceed in size the number of citizens that can be within earshot of a single Herald"

I refuse to give up hope,
and believe that the smaller states become ,
( Iceland being the best example )
The more chance people will actually get intellectually involved with the politics that affects them directly.
Some call it Anarchy , using that word in it's most pejorative terms,
neverthless, I still refuse to give up hope in mans basic decency.
Click to expand...

Smaller states are not bad and would be preferable under normal circumstances. In a highly ponerized world such as ours, things are different, as I think Joe was saying in a recent Sott Radio show about Catalonia. The Catalonian leaders appear to be just as willing to join NATO and the EU, so it is as has been pointed out by others, just the swapping of oligarchs from Madrid for oligarchs in Barcelona and the only people who will suffer are the Catalonians. The prize of this high stakes poker has already been high with many businesses leaving the Catalonien region, which translates into loss of job and economic activity.

Regarding community size as referred to by Plato and Aristotle, since you bring it up:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090317073826AA1zgjP

In book 2, just before he talks about the characteristics of guardians, it becomes pretty clear that Plato wants his republic to be a small as possible. He cites the 'evils of the individual' (a desire for luxury and wealth) as being the cause of the 'evils of the polis' (a need for expansion which causes war). In a later work "Laws" he states an exact number of people in his ideal state: 5040.

Aristotle's answer (in book 7, chapter 4 of "Politics") isn't too different, though as usual his position is a little more moderate. The lower limit is that a city should be self-sufficient, but the upper limit is that a city must not be too large to have order and strict rule of law. That upper limit, he suggests, has to do with people's ability to know one another... to select officials without personally knowing them he describes as 'haphazard'. Or, to quote, "...the largest number which suffices for the purposes of life, and can be taken in at a single view."
Click to expand...

Iceland has 322000 people and Catalonia some 7,5 million. So there is still a lot of splintering and blood to be shed to reach anywhere near an Aristotlian ideal size of community. The idea behind community size is that everybody knows each other which keeps things a little in check and much more egalitarian. It is thus much harder for pathological deviants to reach power as they can't hide. This is not the case with Catalonia, which is still 1500 times greater than the ideal proposed by Plato/Aristotle.
 
As usual blaming the Russians :lol:

Maria Zakharova rejects claims of Russian meddling in Catalan crisis


Madrid’s unfounded claims of Russia’s alleged interference in Spain’s internal affairs are harmful to bilateral relations, Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said on Thursday.

The Russian diplomat thus commented on claims by some Spanish officials that Russia was allegedly supporting separatist sentiments in Catalonia.

“Such disregard for objective facts and the unjustified infatuation with unproven overblown accusations taken from dubious sources clearly do not do any good for Spanish diplomacy,” she said.

“Such steps won’t yield anything except damage for Russian-Spanish relations,” the diplomat said.

https://en.news-front.info/2017/11/16/maria-zakharova-rejects-claims-of-russian-meddling-in-catalan-crisis/
 
Interesting Document Printed by the George Soros Open Society European Policy Institute .
pablo-iglesias.jpg

A PDF that Lists European Parliament Memebers from all European Countries ,
( Scroll down ) Who are Friendly or Controlled by George Soros.
Incidentally Not a single Spanish member is from a catalan Independence party.
But all the State Parties are represented , on comittees like the LGBT Comittee for example.
The Profiles with Pictures and INFO start about a third of the way down.
https://legacy.gscdn.nl/archives/images/soroskooptbrussel.pdf
 
Since the crisis erupted two years ago, the Spanish govt has handed down draconian prison sentences to the organizers of the referendum, prompting Catalans to take to the streets.

They're now on Day 4 of mass protests. Several marches are apparently converging in Barcelona for a mass rally there today. The police/authorities, just like two years ago, have cracked down hard, prompting escalation from protesters who have blockaded streets, particularly in Barcelona.

Spanish unity is at stake here. But then, democracy - in whatever way one conceives that term - is clearly also in trouble. If this happened outside the EU/West, we'd be hearing lectures about how unethical this is, backed with economic sanctions and threats of 'humanitarian intervention'.

It's interesting to note that the Left-Right divide over Catalonia is pro/anti-independence. Antifa flags are flying at protests supporting independence, which makes them... Catalan lefty nationalists calling for MORE borders, not less!?

On the other side, Nazi salutes are raised in support of Spanish unity (which makes a kind of sense, as they are very much on the anti-democratic side of this crisis). In between those extremes, however, there is a sizeable mass of ordinary Catalans who either want Catalonia to secede from Spain, or who are at least protesting against how Madrid has dealt with this movement.

To my knowledge, there is still no clear poll indicating that a majority of Catalans want independence from Spain. Should Spain let one proceed in order to 'settle the issue'? Is it worried about what happened the year before in the UK, when the people 'voted the wrong way'?

What do our Hispanosphere members think of all this?
 
Niall said:
there is a sizeable mass of ordinary Catalans who either want Catalonia to secede from Spain, or who are at least protesting against how Madrid has dealt with this movement.
Click to expand...
Both go sometimes hand to hand. I was recently talking to a woman born in Catalunya and working in Barcelona. She told me she voted 'no' to the independence referendum. So, she was part of the 8% minority that voted 'no' during the 2017 referendum.

She said she though Catalunya by itself would too small facing the global markets. She preferred a federation solution like in Germany. Now fast-forward 2 years, this same lady said she would vote 'yes' to the referendum because of the way Madrid authorities dealt with the independence leaders.

Indeed, if Madrid wanted Cataluniya to become independent, they would not behave differently. They created martyrs, they gave people a tangible cause to fight for, they increased the very schism that underlays the independence project.
 
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