Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

[OrangeScorpion]

It would not be strange that this new Catalan state should become a neoliberal "caliphate" where pedophilia and other depredations against humanity are legalized. Why not?

If the elites can already create states where more than half of the population of the region does not agree, then in that same state they will be able to create the most ponerologyc laws. The way to achieve power then conditions the way it is exercised. And obviously that Catalan state will be completely fascist with the millions who want to remain Spanish - like new Palestinians in a new Israel-.

Where exactly do you see evidence of this PRO Paedophilia in Catalunya ?

The PRO Paedophilia is more than evident in Catalunya and the rest of Spain, if you're paying attention. IMO.

https://es.sott.net/article/47662-Polemica-por-los-menores-tutelados-de-la-Generalitat-explotados-por-una-red-de-pornografia-infantil

I wish we could have more information in Spanish Sott about what is really going on with the Spanish (and Catalan) children, but we have to settle for what little escapes in the local media. And yet, you can sense a very horrible picture.

The intimate relationship of the Catalan politicians with the European Masonic lodges makes my hair stand on end.

https://es.sott.net/article/53868-La-Generalitat-catalana-acogera-un-acto-celebrando-300-anos-de-masoneria-con-los-lideres-de-logias

 

[Tristan]

I always had the impression that in the Catalan region, it was more radical. People had a strong identification with their dialect. Some people would continue speaking Catalan even when aware that they' were talking to a Latin American doctor and/or continue speaking Catalan even if they were in a non Catalan region in Spain. That is simply not courteous for the person who doesn't speak their dialect. I have lived in 4 different regions in Spain and only had this happening with Catalonians.

To tell teh truth, the Catalan language is not a regional dialect, as it happens eg. in some regions of Italy, since they are classified differently in the linguistic families. Although language and dialect are not scientific but political distinctions.


Language family

Indo-European

Italic
Romance
Western
Ibero-Romance
West-Iberian
Castilian languages
Spanish

Indo-European

Italic
Romance
Western
Gallo-Romance
Occitano-Romance
Catalan

 

[loreta]

In Spain there are four official languages:

In addition to the Spanish, official language of the country, are official in their respective autonomous Communities Catalan, Valencian, Galician, Euskera and Aranese (since the year 2006).

http://e-ducativa.catedu.es/44700165/aula/archivos/repositorio/1750/1862/html/61_lenguas_oficiales_de_espaa.html

Here a the definiton or language:

noun
1.
a body of words and the systems for their use common to a people who are of the same community or nation, the same geographical area, or the same cultural tradition

And the definition of dialect:

Linguistics. a variety of a language that is distinguished from other varieties of the same language by features of phonology, grammar, and vocabulary, and by its use by a group of speakers who are set off from others geographically or socially.
2.
a provincial, rural, or socially distinct variety of a language that differs from the standard language, especially when considered as substandard.

When people ask me how many languages I speak I name catalan also. Maybe during Franco people thought that catalan was a dialect. Not anymore. And it is official, so accepted by the constitution.

Although language and dialect are not scientific but political distinctions.

And you are right, also.

 

[Joe]

Joe, I don't think the spanish government is sending buses to Catalonia. I think they expect the non-independent people who live in Catalonia to vote this time and not to be afraid of the Antifa guys. It is the first time in Spain since 1975 that the spanish people go out with their national flags and the national soccer team is not playing.

How do you explain that the separatist parties in Cataluña have a majority of MPs in the parliament? I've heard the claim that they lowered the voting age to get young people to vote so they would have a majority, but still, representation in parliament is usually taken as an indicator of the political inclination of voters. If a lot of anti-independence people did not vote in the last elections, then why not?

 

[Cosmos]

[...]
Later Putin answered in more detail after the following question:

Rein Muellerson: [...]

Here is what Putin answered:

Vladimir Putin: [...]

Here is the above question and explanation from Putin about Catalonia, and more specifically, the separation movements in general nowadays, in video format:

http://<iframe width="854" height="..."0" gesture="media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Vladimir Putin, lawyer by vocation, provides excelent legal analysis of Catalonian crisis in Spain.

After Putin delivered his expert opinion the moderator had this to say:

Fyodor Lukyanov: For those of you who may have forgotten, President Putin is a lawyer by training, so debating him may be a challenge.

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

Joe, I don't think the spanish government is sending buses to Catalonia. I think they expect the non-independent people who live in Catalonia to vote this time and not to be afraid of the Antifa guys. It is the first time in Spain since 1975 that the spanish people go out with their national flags and the national soccer team is not playing.

How do you explain that the separatist parties in Cataluña have a majority of MPs in the parliament? I've heard the claim that they lowered the voting age to get young people to vote so they would have a majority, but still, representation in parliament is usually taken as an indicator of the political inclination of voters. If a lot of anti-independence people did not vote in the last elections, then why not?

That is because of the anti-democratic and proportional Spanish electoral law -that benefits the separatists in the Catalan autonomy-. There are provinces where the votes are worth more than in others, since the distribution of seats by province is unequal beforehand. That is why the separatists are over-represented thanks to the electoral law of the corrupt.
I hope that votes as few people as possible, that the abstention be huge -more than 60%- to begin to delegitimize the state political system in Spain that is destroying the nation. Now, the government of Rajoy wants to accord with the seditious leaders and that these appear in the elections again. They all have to go to prison, some for breaking laws, and others for not pursuing them. And the people are helpless.

 

[Garuda]

Joe, I don't think the spanish government is sending buses to Catalonia. I think they expect the non-independent people who live in Catalonia to vote this time and not to be afraid of the Antifa guys. It is the first time in Spain since 1975 that the spanish people go out with their national flags and the national soccer team is not playing.

How do you explain that the separatist parties in Cataluña have a majority of MPs in the parliament? I've heard the claim that they lowered the voting age to get young people to vote so they would have a majority, but still, representation in parliament is usually taken as an indicator of the political inclination of voters. If a lot of anti-independence people did not vote in the last elections, then why not?

Hi Joe, it is very easy to explain that they have a majority in their parlament. Since the 80's both spanish political parties, PP and PSOE, led the education in their hands. For years they have teached nosenses such Ebro was a Catalonian river which started in a foreign land. History was forged and lately you could not even study in Castilian language. This is an experiment which began 40 years ago.

I remembered a C' sessions with Julius Caesar (07.14.2014) where he said something about education :

Q: (Atriedes) If you could give 3 pieces of advice to the world, what would they be?

A: I was wrong to think I could change the masses by example. Humans are fickle and self-centered for the most part. Thus, if you wish to really effect changes, it can only be done by early education, and even then it is fragile and will not last. In the end you must be true to your own nature and fear nothing. If you do that you may make a difference after you are gone. That is not exactly what you are looking for, but there are no 3 pieces of advice that serve all events.

From my point of view, they have experimented with us and we have fall in their traps. This morning I read this article in the blog gurus blog. It is a economic blog and I usually agree with them. The link is: _https://www.gurusblog.com/archives/no-ha-habido-declaracion-unilateral-de-independencia-the-fake-dui/28/10/2017/. The article says that last days where agreed by both parts and that there has never been a DUI declaration and explain why. From my point of view, they have pulled my leg.

The Anfiga guys (the CUP) are now realizing they have been an instrument, the independent guys are realizing they won't be this time a Republic, the economic guys can justify a crisis and the money is back in Madrid in their way to Brussels.

Thanks for your time and to this community because all of you are an inspiration to me.

 

[Joe]

Joe, I don't think the spanish government is sending buses to Catalonia. I think they expect the non-independent people who live in Catalonia to vote this time and not to be afraid of the Antifa guys. It is the first time in Spain since 1975 that the spanish people go out with their national flags and the national soccer team is not playing.

How do you explain that the separatist parties in Cataluña have a majority of MPs in the parliament? I've heard the claim that they lowered the voting age to get young people to vote so they would have a majority, but still, representation in parliament is usually taken as an indicator of the political inclination of voters. If a lot of anti-independence people did not vote in the last elections, then why not?

Hi Joe, it is very easy to explain that they have a majority in their parlament. Since the 80's both spanish political parties, PP and PSOE, led the education in their hands. For years they have teached nosenses such Ebro was a Catalonian river which started in a foreign land. History was forged and lately you could not even study in Castilian language. This is an experiment which began 40 years ago.

Well, that's a bit more of a nuanced answer to the question I asked. Every population is 'mind programmed' in one way or another, but even with that, if the representation of the separatist parties in the Catalan parliament is a true reflection of the political leanings of the voting population, then it seems that, for good or bad, a majority of the voting population supports independence.

 

[SocietyoftheSpectacle]

Somebody mentioned the unfairness of Proportional Voting.

below are the regional parliaments of Basque,
la rioja, Navarre , Aragon, catalonia , and Valencia.
TOP RIGHT is the Spanish parliament.

All it takes is for the Red and Blue party to cut a deal behind closed doors ,
and ,,,,,,,,,,

Also mentioned was the subject of brain Washing,
not Forgetting that Ex Pee Pee Prime Minister
AZNAR, ( the one that wanted to Join the war in Iraq )
Now works for Murdochs,
news Corporation.

 

[Tristan]

According to the Spanish professor of Political Science Ramon Cotarelo this article 155 is a carbon copy of article 37 of the Germany Constitution (The Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany), which in turn comes from article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The constitution that technically remained in effect throughout the Nazi era from 1933 to 1945.

Article 37 [Federal Coercion]
(1) Where a State [Land] fails to comply with its obligations of a federal character imposed by this Constitution or another federal statute, the Government may, with the consent of the Senate [Bundesrat], take the necessary measures to enforce such compliance by the State [Land] by way of federal coercion.
(2) For the purpose of exercising federal coercion, the Government or its commissioner has the right to give binding instructions to all States [Länder] and their authorities.

Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution

Embedded within the Weimar Constitution was an article that encompassed the right/left political tension and would be fundamental to Hitler's rise to power. This was Article 48, which stated that “If public security and order are seriously disturbed or endangered within the German Reich, the President of the Reich may take measures necessary for their restoration, intervening if need be with the assistance of the armed forces.” It also allowed the President to suspend civil liberties guaranteed in the Weimar Constitution.

It allowed the President to declare a state of emergency in Germany in times of national danger and to rule as a dictator for short periods of time. The intent was to offer an opportunity for a strong executive leader to take decisive action in times of crisis without navigating what could be a slower legislative process. It was, however, a fatal flaw written into the founding document of the Weimar Republic. This is not to say that it was always abused. President Friedrich Ebert used Article 48 sixty-three times in 1923–24 alone to deal with critical economic dangers facing Germany. Yet, each time he returned his dictatorial powers after a short period time.

Article 48 of the constitution of the Weimar Republic of Germany (1919–1933) allowed the President, under certain circumstances, to take emergency measures without the prior consent of the Reichstag. This power was understood to include the promulgation of "emergency decrees (Notverordnungen)".

The invocation of Article 48 by successive governments helped seal the fate of the Weimar Republic. While Brüning's first invocation of a Notverordnung may have been well-intentioned, the power to rule by decree became increasingly used not in response to a specific emergency but as a substitute for parliamentary leadership. The excessive use of the decree power and the fact that successive chancellors were no longer responsible to the Reichstag probably played a significant part in the loss of public confidence in constitutional democracy, in turn leading to the rise of the extremist parties.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008220

Nazi use

On 30 January 1933, Adolf Hitler was named Chancellor of Germany. Lacking a majority in the Reichstag, Hitler formed a coalition with the Nationalists (German National People's Party (German: Deutschnationale Volkspartei, DNVP)). Not long afterwards, he called elections for 5 March. Six days before the election, on 27 February, the Reichstag fire damaged the house of Parliament in Berlin. Claiming that the fire was the first step in a Communist revolution, the Nazis used the fire as a pretext to get the President, Hindenburg, to sign the Reichstag Fire Decree, officially the Verordnung des Reichspräsidenten zum Schutz von Volk und Staat (Presidential Decree for the Protection of People and State).

Under the decree, issued by Hindenburg on the basis of Article 48, the government was given authority to curtail constitutional rights including habeas corpus, free expression of opinion, freedom of the press, rights of assembly, and the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications. Constitutional restrictions on searches and confiscation of property were likewise suspended.

The Reichstag Fire Decree was one of the first steps the Nazis took toward the establishment of a one-party dictatorship in Germany. With several key government posts in the hands of Nazis and with the constitutional protections on civil liberties suspended by the decree, the Nazis were able to use police power to suppress, intimidate and arrest their opposition, in particular the Communists. Hitler's subversion of the Constitution under Article 48 thus had the mark of legality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_48_(Weimar_Constitution)

 

[idiaysan]

Joe, I don't think the spanish government is sending buses to Catalonia. I think they expect the non-independent people who live in Catalonia to vote this time and not to be afraid of the Antifa guys. It is the first time in Spain since 1975 that the spanish people go out with their national flags and the national soccer team is not playing.

How do you explain that the separatist parties in Cataluña have a majority of MPs in the parliament? I've heard the claim that they lowered the voting age to get young people to vote so they would have a majority, but still, representation in parliament is usually taken as an indicator of the political inclination of voters. If a lot of anti-independence people did not vote in the last elections, then why not?

That is because of the anti-democratic and proportional Spanish electoral law -that benefits the separatists in the Catalan autonomy-. There are provinces where the votes are worth more than in others, since the distribution of seats by province is unequal beforehand. That is why the separatists are over-represented thanks to the electoral law of the corrupt.
I hope that votes as few people as possible, that the abstention be huge -more than 60%- to begin to delegitimize the state political system in Spain that is destroying the nation. Now, the government of Rajoy wants to accord with the seditious leaders and that these appear in the elections again. They all have to go to prison, some for breaking laws, and others for not pursuing them. And the people are helpless.

Yes l apprenti de forgeron is important to take into account the political representation of the Spanish population in its electoral system, electoral system without democratic guarantees, less representative, Machiavellian and without separation of powers.

The electoral system in Spain is based on the law d'Hondt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_method

The distribution of votes is done by circumscriptions, which are the provinces, each province has a minimum of 2 seats (except Ceuta and Melilla that have 1) this means that we have 50 districts for 2 seats, plus 2 circumscriptions for 1 seat, that is to say 102 initial seats, if we take into account that in the congress of the deputies there are a total of 350 seats, that is to say, deputies, that leaves us 250 seats that are distributed among the circumscriptions, the Spanish provinces, in relation to their density of population (with the right to vote).
Therefore the scrutiny is at the provincial level and not at the community level and this causes that there are more than notable differences in what the seat is worth. Not all votes are worth the same, in large cities such as Madrid or Barcelona you get a deputy (seat) for every 100,000 votes, while in smaller cities such as Soria, for example, is achieved with just about 20,000

Further:
The lists of the matches are closed and blocked.
The elected deputies are subject to voting discipline by their respective parties.
This leaves us with an electoral system in which the elected deputies have no responsibility towards the province by which they present themselves, they represent their parties and not the population (voters without direct representation).

At the level of autonomous communities, the electoral law works in the same way and that explains why there is a parliamentary majority of independence in Catalonia.
In the elections of September 27, 2015, Junts pel si obtained 39.5% of the votes and the CUP obtained 8.2% if we add them, we obtain only 47.7% but translated to seats, that is, to deputies They are 62 of Junts pel Si + 2 of the CUP, give your total of 68 pro-independence deputies and voila! we already have an absolute majority to govern.

This happens because the vote of provinces such as Girona and Lleida is worth more than the vote of the provinces of Barcelona and Tarragona (these last two, as they are more industrialized, have a higher migrant population index, not only from abroad but also from other provinces of Spain ).
So the rate of independence voters will be higher in the provinces of Girona and Lleida, than in the provinces of Barcelona and Tarragona.
In the case of the last Catalan elections, Girona and Lleida obtained 64% and 63.3% of the independence vote respectively, and Barcelona and Tarragona 44.3% and 49%.

http://elecciones.lavanguardia.com/catalanas/2015/resultados-cataluna-ccaa/

Here I leave two videos the first one is a bit childish but very explanatory and has the possibility of putting subtitles in English, the second is in Spanish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vjFfFskVaM&t=634s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMEdIIyrdyo

 

[idiaysan]

Joe, I don't think the spanish government is sending buses to Catalonia. I think they expect the non-independent people who live in Catalonia to vote this time and not to be afraid of the Antifa guys. It is the first time in Spain since 1975 that the spanish people go out with their national flags and the national soccer team is not playing.


The Anfiga guys (the CUP) are now realizing they have been an instrument, the independent guys are realizing they won't be this time a Republic, the economic guys can justify a crisis and the money is back in Madrid in their way to Brussels.

Thanks for your time and to this community because all of you are an inspiration to me.

The CUP realized that it was being manipulated or would begin to be on December 27, 2015 when it was decided in a national assembly on the investiture of Artur Mas, leader at that time of Junts pel Si.
With the history of the Cup until that moment as a political organization of the left and anti-capitalist, it was not possible to believe how that Orwellian result was obtained in that assembly: 1515 votes in favor of Mas and 1515 votes against. The thing was beginning to paint badly between the ranks of the CUP ...

Before the tie, the decision was taken by the Political Council of the Cup that ended with the envestidura of Puigdemont (which we remember, was a president handpicked by Artur Mas and that was never voted by anyone)

in Spanish: http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/militancia-CUP-rechaza-investir-primera_0_467203496.html

 

[Gaby]

According to the Spanish professor of Political Science Ramon Cotarelo this article 155 is a carbon copy of article 37 of the Germany Constitution (The Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany), which in turn comes from article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The constitution that technically remained in effect throughout the Nazi era from 1933 to 1945.

Another sign of the time...

 

[Aeneas]

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201710301058657366-catalonia-lawsuit-spain/

Catalan Parliament Recognizes Spain's Decision to Dissolve the Body
EUROPE
14:40 30.10.2017(updated 17:20 30.10.2017) Get short URL4145109
The Catalan parliament, dissolved by the Spanish government by the invoking of Article 155 of the Constitution, has recognized the decision and halts its work until new early elections, the legislature told Sputnik.
The parliament presidium's meeting due Tuesday has been canceled.

Catalonia's former leadership faces rebellion, sedition charges and embezzlement over the decision to hold the independence referendum. Spanish state officials have confirmed that ousted Catalan resident Carles Puigdemont had traveled to Brussels with other dismissed members of region's government.

Previously media reports were claiming of the Spanish chief prosecutor Jose Manuel Maza's preparations to prepare rebellion charges against Puigdemont over his participation in the parliament's unilateral declaration of independence. Under the Spanish law, rebellion is a crime punishable by up to 30 years in jail.

"The Attorney General's Office… initiates the filing of lawsuits against the key politicians of the Catalan Generalitat," Spanish Attorney General Jose Manuel Maza told Spanish television channels.

This step was taken after on Friday, October 27 the Catalan parliament has unilaterally declared the region's independence from Spain after a secret vote.

Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has previously described the Spain's actions in the region as efforts aimed to restore the rule of law in the country. Rajoy has dismissed Puigdemont and his government and called for regional elections on December 21. The Catalan leader, however, refused to recognize his removal and urged to create a "democratic opposition". BBC reports claim that his possible arrest may ignite protests in the region.

So now after the Catalan leadership travelled to Brussels, the independence move has been cancelled. One wonders if the Catalan elite really ever was interested in independence or merely were trying to bluff their way to a better deal with more autonomy. Was it merely a poker play that backfired? I think the common people are the ones who will be paying the price as a huge number of companies have left the Catalan region. Polarizing the population was never a good idea, but that might have been part of the 'game'.

 

[Ca.]

I wounder how much influence the European Central Banking System, NATO, and the Global Shipping Industry's and ship builders have in it? Oh.. and Narco America?

Catalonia's pro-unionists rally against independence
The National Published on Oct 30, 2017

http://<iframe width="560" height="...=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Catalonia's pro-unionists rallied against the region's bid for independence days after the regional parliament voted to separate from Spain.

RT
Published on Oct 30, 2017
Hundreds of thousands took to the streets of Barcelona, protesting the apparent desire of the Catalan government to create an independent state.

Days before, hundreds of thousands had marched in support of the push for secession.
An unrelenting Madrid, unwilling to let any of this happen, is ready to prevent Catalonia from becoming independent. Will it come to the use of military force?

Is the drive for independence strong enough to overcome all the obstacles? We ask Josep-Maria Terricabras, member of the European Parliament for the Republican Left party of Catalonia

http://<iframe width="560" height="...=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>