Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

[Ariadna]

Agree with you Windmills Knight, "divide and conquer".

In addition, I think that the Catalan independence government (amalgam of parties from the right most right to radical left) has the strategy of winning or winning. Some notes:

- If they declare independence unilaterally, when their entry into the European Union is closed, then their strategy is towards the creation of a tax haven or a similar state to Hong Kong. In my opinion this is well grounded in the article shared by Gaby. https://laverdadocultablog.wordpress.com/2017/09/23/maidan-cat-tras-las-huellas-de-la-otan-en-el-proces/

- If the Catalan government forces the dialogue, pressing with the unilateral declaration of independence, they would request the competences on Justice and Public Finance. All others already have them. This situation would not detract from their objectives, walk towards independence and why not prevent the corruption of corruption.
https://es.sott.net/article/55148-El-fin-dec-secreto-bancario-en-Andorra-y-las-prisas-por-el-proces.

- The independence movement led by the Catalan government and civil associations like ANC and Omnium want to use victimhood as a political weapon. That is not real, they are not victims. They hold power in Catalonia, and exercise it for their political benefit, in every way they can, even bypassing the law. In my opinion, the victims are the other non-proindependent Catalan citizens who are considered second-class Catalans and who, until now, did not express themselves at risk of being stigmatized as fascist, enemy or simply not being Catalan.

-More than this, the Catalan independence movement focuses on peripheral territories such as the Valencian community, the Balearic Islands, a strip of Aragon and the south of France, called by them Països Catalans, as part of their future project.
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/13/actualidad/1505297868_213171.html.

I am Spanish, from Andalusia and I do not belong to the right wing of the policy.

 

[idiaysan]

Hello everyone!
Days ago I wrote this draft that I wanted to publish in the forum, it was just after the police violence that occurred on October 1st.
I was born and raised in a small town near the city of Barcelona, ​​and I lived there until just a year ago that I moved to Argentina, I say this because watching what happened in Catalunya, without being able to be a participant, hit me very hard.

From a very young age I have participated in social organizations, I have tried not to keep myself outside the political context and the social and economic problems that surround me, I feel a very direct empathic relationship with human suffering, or at least with that generated by around me. I believe in the direct relationship between rights and responsibilities

I have tried to keep awake always, attentive to the signals, and in the case of the Catalan independence movement, or in the mobilizations of the "indignados" that were lived in all Spain, movements that I have known very well from within.
I have seen how interests passed very quickly from being popular clamor transforming an unjust society, to being designed to benefit oligarchs or foreign interference that responded to corporatist interests of the deep state.
Just as it happened with the "color revolutions", as it happens with the Kurdish case, just as it will happen with my beloved land of Catalonia.

It hurts me deeply, you do not know how, the police violence that occurred in the October 1 referendum, that again, the people will be the shield of political and economic interests that go far beyond what normal people could reach imagine (unfortunately).
It hurts me deeply to know how intelligent and good people are manipulated, whom I love very much, my colleagues who now work in the CUP and other social organizations linked to it, or my family, my friends ...

- from my point of view, the arrest of Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sànchez has been previously designed and agreed upon by two government partners: the dome of Junts Pel Si and the PP. and perhaps with a remuneration agreed to their families for being both a scapegoat.
-I do not think Puigdemont declares unilaterally the independence, after the ridicule he made in parliament on October 11, has lost much popular support.
- I do not think I will apply the 155, not at least with the whole of the autonomic suspension, have already agreed an election in January 2018, be held and "nothing has happened here."
And another point for the circus of democracy.

Although it may happen, nothing would surprise me in the games of power and politics.

Spanish society, including politicians obviously, is a cowardly society, that is the legacy of not ending the Franco dictatorship and disguising a democratic system when it is not.
(I remembered this video of the economist Jose Luis Sampedro, I did not find it subtitled in English, but it says something like that fear is the main motivating force of the man and that to govern based on the fear is very effective) https: // www. youtube.com/watch?v=2ZL3bMvC7UE


Even so, I consider it imperative that the people mobilize, respond and take advantage of the political, social and economic moment that lives. In an increasingly dehumanized and remote-controlled society, the citizen movement and the popular response are necessary.
But how do you take sides in mobilizations if they respond to initially just causes?

There is no longer the Marxist left, in Catalonia allied with the neoliberal right promoted by CIU. In USA we see the barbarities that are committed in the name of causes as fair as the feminist and antiracist struggles, Kurdish revolutionary organizations armed and remotely controlled by the United States and then abandoned ...

Getting away always offers you to see with more perspective and want to pursue the truth and knowledge always brings pain, but how to deal with it?
How do you manage to get rid of those identifications with the left?
we live in difficult but very interesting times

 

[thorbiorn]

[...]

Getting away always offers you to see with more perspective and want to pursue the truth and knowledge always brings pain, but how to deal with it?
How do you manage to get rid of those identifications with the left?
we live in difficult but very interesting times

If what you mean about the pain is the realization that some things are different than you originally thought and believed in, then I think one has to accept this discomfort as part of the learning process. The pain you feel now will probably not last, as it is because you continue to grow in knowledge. Recall also the quote Laura has as her signature:

"He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.
Agamemnon, Aeschylus"

Regarding: "How do you manage to get rid of those identifications with the left?"

Personally I have had sympathy for both right and left wing policies, but mostly with the left. These days I can't support them the same way as before, but it does not mean that some of their analysis do not have valid points, it is just less of a black and white picture.

Perhaps your identification with the left is also related to personal relationship, memories of people you have worked with, were friends with. If that is the case why not acknowledge all the good things, these interactions or sympathies led to. Maybe it helped you to mobilize your energy and emotions for something greater, something connected to the lives and sufferings of other people and the destiny of mankind, maybe it helped you to learn and progress. Like that you might gradually grow out of the identification.

 

[Possibility of Being]

How do you manage to get rid of those identifications with the left?

At first, hardly and in convulsions. Now, trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but the same time not to leave anything of 'identification' which seems to be the main part of the problem. Trying to keep what feels right and take a close look at anything that I got used to think because of... any kind of not verified external influence. Chaff and grain sort of thing.

[quote author=Lavinia_Sofia]we live in difficult but very interesting times[/quote]

No doubt. And it's hard to say whether the times are more difficult or more interesting. I guess it depends, if only partly, on how close your emotions are to any particular event / location. It's not always easy to "maintain the attitude of a naturalist" as Lobaczewski suggested. A dear member of my family lives in Catalunia as an integrated immigrant and a bit of a local activist. Another one is in another European country where so called opposition is highly fueled from outside. And they haven't been paying close attention left and right and buy some of the crap. Some people lose their health or life by going to the barricades. I don't think that's the best thing to do nowadays. It's a futile war that benefits only those who stay away and pull the strings - at least as long as we don't have well educated and aware society. So yes, it's hard and painful to watch it - so be it. But there is always much more to learn and as some say there is no better teacher than pain and suffering. Whatever you can win in a political battle, you can easily lose shortly after. What you have learned, stays no matter what and in right circumstances, can enrich those around you. What more you can realistically wish?

 

[Ant22]

How do you manage to get rid of those identifications with the left?

Regarding: "How do you manage to get rid of those identifications with the left?"

Personally I have had sympathy for both right and left wing policies, but mostly with the left. These days I can't support them the same way as before, but it does not mean that some of their analysis do not have valid points, it is just less of a black and white picture.

Perhaps your identification with the left is also related to personal relationship, memories of people you have worked with, were friends with. If that is the case why not acknowledge all the good things, these interactions or sympathies led to. Maybe it helped you to mobilize your energy and emotions for something greater, something connected to the lives and sufferings of other people and the destiny of mankind, maybe it helped you to learn and progress. Like that you might gradually grow out of the identification.

Lavinia_Sofia, I too have always been quite left leaning although there have been aspects of right wing politics that spoke to me too. The way I look at it now is that the old left is all gone and I just cannot continue to align myself with the intellectually and morally unhygienic caricature it has become.

I've never been actively involved in any social organizations the way you have and I can only imagine how hard it will be for you to reinvent your lifestyle now that the left has been overtaken by propagators of a truly hideous agenda. It's not going to be an easy journey but I'll risk a guess that it's still going to be easier than trying to fit yourself into the current picture of what the left represents.

Personally I think that you can still live your life according to the values and ideals you believe in but they will not match the label of left-wing politics anymore. That label now describes something completely different. Like the swastika, the name of which comes from Sanskrit and means "conducive to well being or auspicious". Yet the original meaning became forgotten when the symbol was adopted by the Nazis. To me, the left has similarly been overtaken by people who distorted the original idea to the point that it no longer resembles the original.

 

[idiaysan]

Many thanks Thorbiorn, Possibility of Being and Ant22 for the little time you have spent answering me, it really helps me to continue on my way. In general this forum, you are all a great inspiration.

Recall also the quote Laura has as her signature:

"He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.
Agamemnon, Aeschylus"

I just remembered Laura's signature when I reread what I wrote before I published it :)

And it is true, overcoming identifications is undoubtedly the next step, and I think it will be easier to do it from here, away from the whole movement.
In part, and I have talked a lot with my partner, a part of me wanted to leave Spain to work all these issues in a more calm way.

thank you very much again, I will take into account all your appreciations
have a nice day!

 

[thorbiorn]

The theme of divide and conquer has been brought up in relation to Catalonia, Spain and Europe and spelled out in the post by Windmill Knight https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,36274.msg737562.html#msg737562
One factor, that facilitates such policies is that many young people, even with degrees, end up having few job opportunities. Here are some headlines and a quote that describe the issues.

"The average age at which Spaniards leave home has risen to 29, almost nine years later than the average Swede, according to Eurostat." _http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39934674 From May 18th, 2017. This difference may also be partly due to different social support systems, but anyway 9 years is a lot.

Workers in southern Europe are stuck in lousy jobs
_https://www.economist.com/news/europe/21721219-segmented-labour-markets-have-scarred-young-jobseekers-workers-southern-europe-are-stuck from April 20th, 2017.

Europe's lost generation: Young, educated and unemployed _http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/13/news/economy/europe-youth-unemployment-france/ fraom April 13th, 2017.

It has been going on for quite a few years. From January 2014 there is a report from McKinsey & Company:
Education to employment: Getting Europe’s youth into work _https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/social-sector/our-insights/converting-education-to-employment-in-europe

Though many young people have university degrees few probably have a well rounded knowledge of history and human behavior. Add to this that the role models put forward by popular culture, and the entertainment industries are very limited as guides to leading a life guided by reason. Furthermore, the people that are growing up, or are young is the first generation who have lived a life exposed to GMO food, cell phones and Wi-Fi. Thus in conjunction with the many other transformations that take place, there is ground for the creation of frustrations. When frustrations get channeled one may generate a crowd with laws of its own:

Crowd psychology, also known as mob psychology, is a branch of social psychology. Social psychologists have developed several theories for explaining the ways in which the psychology of a crowd differs from and interacts with that of the individuals within it. Major theorists in crowd psychology include Gustave Le Bon, Gabriel Tarde, Sigmund Freud, and Steve Reicher. This field relates to the behaviors and thought processes of both the individual crowd members and the crowd as an entity.[1] Crowd behavior is heavily influenced by the loss of responsibility of the individual and the impression of universality of behavior, both of which increase with the size of the crowd.[...]

One book, The Crowd, by Gustave Le Bon is on the reading list.

Although the right to be called a science has been challenged, there might be something to psychohistory:

Psychohistory is the study of the psychological motivations of historical events.[1] It attempts to combine the insights of psychoanalysis with the research methodology of the social sciences to understand the emotional origin of the social and political behavior of groups and nations, past and present. Its subject matter is childhood and the family, and psychological studies of anthropology and ethnology.[...]

It is not clear to me if the last area also includes collective trauma experienced by a group of people, but that would be an influence too. In the history of Spain they are not missing.

Below some headlines translated with Yandex. At the time of posting I checked El Mundo and there is online transmission of a heated debate in the Spanish Parliament about which they write:

The challenge for independence in Catalonia and the possibility of a constitutional reform that addresses the tensions territorial will be two of the axes of the control session this Wednesday in the Congress, in the same week that the Senate debate and vote on the application of article 155 in Catalonia.

Of concern is also that the local Catalonian police, "Los Mossos d'esquadra", say they hesitate to implement a violent action against the citizens. They can't legally go on strike, but they can report sick

Mossos about the 155: "According to what they ask for, there will be low"

The issue about declaring independence or not is not yet clear for the president of Catalonia, Carles Puigdemont:

In the past few days is repeating the situation prior to the Plenary session of 10 October, when Carles Puigdemont should decide whether proclaimed or not the independence. On that occasion, he chose the middle path, but that decision is not served to prevent the Government to trigger the application of article 155 of laConstitución. Now the president of the Generalitat faces of new internal pressures in ways contradictory: a few will ask you to proclaim the secession, and lead the "resistance" in the street; others that modulate the speech, not take away years of progress in the self and ends by calling for elections.

Some progress has already been lost and whether among poor or rich much money have left Catalonia: _http://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2017/10/25/59eb748846163ff5268b4633.html

Edit: They will try to hold elections in Catalonia as soon as possible:
Rajoy: "to Hold elections urgent is a wise decision"_http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/25/59f03def46163f20278b4572.html

 

[Windmill knight]

How do you manage to get rid of those identifications with the left?

Regarding: "How do you manage to get rid of those identifications with the left?"

Personally I have had sympathy for both right and left wing policies, but mostly with the left. These days I can't support them the same way as before, but it does not mean that some of their analysis do not have valid points, it is just less of a black and white picture.

Perhaps your identification with the left is also related to personal relationship, memories of people you have worked with, were friends with. If that is the case why not acknowledge all the good things, these interactions or sympathies led to. Maybe it helped you to mobilize your energy and emotions for something greater, something connected to the lives and sufferings of other people and the destiny of mankind, maybe it helped you to learn and progress. Like that you might gradually grow out of the identification.

Lavinia_Sofia, I too have always been quite left leaning although there have been aspects of right wing politics that spoke to me too. The way I look at it now is that the old left is all gone and I just cannot continue to align myself with the intellectually and morally unhygienic caricature it has become.

A simple answer would be: Forget about the labels and examine each issue separetely. Ask yourself: Is this particular issue good for the people? Does it create more problems than it solves? If it's not good, who seeks to benefit from it and for what reason? Remember, there is good and evil, and the specific situation that determines which is which.

It will turn out that you will be with the 'left' in some issues and not in others. People may find it hard to put a label on you, but that's their problem, not yours. (I've been called both right and left on Twitter.) We stick to our principles and what we believe to be correct, and we do not allow ourselves to be put into boxes. In fact, the confusion is largely because those boxes have spun around us in crazy ways in the last few years; it's not really us who have changed that much. Back then, being 'left' meant standing against Bush and Blair's imperial wars - now it's about gender pronouns! Who has lost the plot here??

 

[idiaysan]

How do you manage to get rid of those identifications with the left?

We stick to our principles and what we believe to be correct, and we do not allow ourselves to be put into boxes. In fact, the confusion is largely because those boxes have spun around us in crazy ways in the last few years; it's not really us who have changed that much. Back then, being 'left' meant standing against Bush and Blair's imperial wars - now it's about gender pronouns! Who has lost the plot here??

Thank you Windmill knight is very clear who has lost the way, and it is very clear how hard it will be fighting against manipulations and schedules, but that's where we are!

As usual in the morning I flip news on the internet,
today in session of the Catalan Parliament, when, in theory, the president of the Generalitat Carles Puigdemont, should announce elections, change course unexpectedly and dismiss calls for elections and puts in the hands of the Parlament decide on DUI, today's session or an extraordinary one for tomorrow.

I found this news in english:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/26/inenglish/1509015415_232297.html

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/9/280458/World/International/Catalonia-crisis-deepens-as-regions-leader-rules-o.aspx

this circus is already a dizzy swirl

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

- The independence movement led by the Catalan government and civil associations like ANC and Omnium want to use victimhood as a political weapon. That is not real, they are not victims. They hold power in Catalonia, and exercise it for their political benefit, in every way they can, even bypassing the law. In my opinion, the victims are the other non-proindependent Catalan citizens who are considered second-class Catalans and who, until now, did not express themselves at risk of being stigmatized as fascist, enemy or simply not being Catalan.

Agree. There are strange things in Spanish politics that can hardly be seen in other places: for example, it is believed that it is very "left" to satisfy the extreme Catalan right. The same seditious leaders who now do not want elections for "lack of guarantees" when it is they who organized an illegal and fraudulent referendum taking the results as valid -and did not vote nor 45% of the census-. Or that the separatism can be "a peaceful movement" when the declaration of independence is, in itself, a declaration of war. Yes, separatist leaders are seeking to generate martyrs, and are desperate to get them for a violent media show, to be used as victimhood propaganda in the international press. That is their only chance, appear as victims in the media and that way the separatist leaders will get their own state by intervention of the UN, NATO or whoever. Pretty sickly, and even psychopathic.
Separatist leaders are leading to a civil war, they say they want to "dialogue" but just demanding their own little-state, by hook or by crook. The art. 155 will not be fulfilled by the seditious. So if the violence increases will be mainly the fault of the central government for not enforcing state of siege, detain seditious / rebellious leaders (no more than forty people) and judge them by the military. That would prevent the war between civilians. It should have been done a long time ago, but now there is no alternative but to implement it soon. Catalan Autonomy (which is a Spanish institution) must be suspended until separatists cease to be a danger to others and to themselves.

I am Spanish, from Andalusia and I do not belong to the right wing of the policy.

Two things about the latter. It is sad that you have to explain that you are not in the right wing for opposing a group of seditious people that seek to destroy Spain, your nation. But it is good because at the same time they (the separatist) can no longer silence those who think differently by calling them "fascist." I was seeing in internet that already many call the separatists "nazis" and "zionists", for example. And that seems to be what comes in the short term, "war of flags", struggle of sentimentalisms in the streets, insults and increasing grievances, to see who makes more noise and has more minutes in the media.

Edit: grammar.

 

[caballero reyes]

Reply 37 of I apprenti di forgeron.

"This is a policy issue, and Spain is one of the oldest nations in the world -a nation with 500 years of territorial and cultural unity"

---------------------- ------------------ ---------- ----------

What is now known as Spain or Spanish country, exists only politically, with its legal consequences that implies, when they joined Catalonia, Castilla, Aragon, Navarre, Galicia, Granada, Andalusia, Asturias, etc., some of those little kingdoms that were in conflict.

One thing is the antiquity of Iberia or Iberian Peninsula that includes Portugal, Gibraltar, and the regions mentioned above, and another is Iberia, but the Iberia of the Caucasus, which is where the name of the peninsula probably took its name. That region called Iberia is what currently comprises the state of Georgia and the state of Armenia. That region is really old.

 

[Beau]

Catalan separatists have declared independence. Spain's PM responds by stating 'rule of law will be restored in Catalonia.' I have a feeling this will not end well, perhaps that's the plan?

https://www.rt.com/news/407960-catalonia-spain-independence-parliament/

 

[Windmill knight]

Catalan separatists have declared independence. Spain's PM responds by stating 'rule of law will be restored in Catalonia.' I have a feeling this will not end well, perhaps that's the plan?

https://www.rt.com/news/407960-catalonia-spain-independence-parliament/

The Spanish Senate voted in favor of the activation of article 155, which removes the autonomy of the region and the local executive power. That was happening at the same time as the Catalan Parliament was voting in favor of independence. At this point this can certainly not end too well, but I'm not even sure there's a plan behind all this or if it's just another manifestation of chaos on the planet.

 

[luc]

Catalan separatists have declared independence. Spain's PM responds by stating 'rule of law will be restored in Catalonia.' I have a feeling this will not end well, perhaps that's the plan?

https://www.rt.com/news/407960-catalonia-spain-independence-parliament/

The Spanish Senate voted in favor of the activation of article 155, which removes the autonomy of the region and the local executive power. That was happening at the same time as the Catalan Parliament was voting in favor of independence. At this point this can certainly not end too well, but I'm not even sure there's a plan behind all this or if it's just another manifestation of chaos on the planet.

Germany and France have declared they don't recognize Catalonia's independence. NATO remains neutral. EU is a bit more careful, Juncker said said it was important to avoid any splits and fractures in the European Union bloc.

Oh well. Looks like chaos manifesting perhaps with a dose of Soros-style destabilization attempts. If the latter, this may drive Europe further away from the failing US, granted there will be a Europe left...

Live updates: https://www.rt.com/news/407960-catalonia-spain-independence-parliament/

 

[Alejo]

Catalan separatists have declared independence. Spain's PM responds by stating 'rule of law will be restored in Catalonia.' I have a feeling this will not end well, perhaps that's the plan?

https://www.rt.com/news/407960-catalonia-spain-independence-parliament/

The Spanish Senate voted in favor of the activation of article 155, which removes the autonomy of the region and the local executive power. That was happening at the same time as the Catalan Parliament was voting in favor of independence. At this point this can certainly not end too well, but I'm not even sure there's a plan behind all this or if it's just another manifestation of chaos on the planet.

I have been thinking about it and I can’t escape a feeling that this is sort of a test run.

Part of this has to be rooted in authentic feelings of separatism, but I am not sure people fully understand what it would imply to secede from Spain. And not only that but, for no change. Catalonia would still be part of the West for all intents and purposes.

So somewhere it feels as though someone is pushing in one particular direction just to see what would happen, what people’s reaction would be, to then export it elsewhere. There has been a lot of talk about this movement infecting other regions in Europe. And perhaps I’m being too conspiratorial, but I can totally see how that serves the PTB.

Today, Spain is far easier to control and manipulate than a month ago. It’s people are deeply polarized over an issue that could have been addressed with dialogue, but that somehow received such attention that it became dramatic and tense.

I agree with you guys, if we saw the treatment Madrid had over voting in Catalonia. I can only imagine what the treatment will be of the declaration.

It’s like the South American Declaration of Independence spree of the 1800’s at a micro scale. Spain won’t take it kindly when a huge source of wealth wants out and the reaction could be just as violent.

Which is ironic, Spain has been authoritative in denouncing Venezuela but today, they’re in the same position (violently polarized and divided population, unable to talk and about to violently harm human rights) . Funny enough, in the 1800’s it was a “Venezuelan” who was instrumental in pushing South America for secetion from the Spanish rule.

It can’t end well.