Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

Russia Today is just trying to Stir trouble,
It's what they do,
and is almost as bad as Julian Assanges Tweet , recommending Catalunya
Mobilise it's 1 million fighting age men.

It's sad bu inevitable to see big interests trying to push from the sides.
 
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Russia Today is just trying to Stir trouble,
It's what they do,
and is almost as bad as Julian Assanges Tweet , recommending Catalunya
Mobilise it's 1 million fighting age men.

It's sad bu inevitable to see big interests trying to push from the sides.
It appears to me RT was primarily reporting what was first observed by El Mundo when they saw the video by Òmnium Cultural. Do you think El Mundo is stirring trouble by making the comparison between the Òmnium Cultural video and the Maidan video? That said, one could hold that the RT article when read could be interpreted by prospective tourists as a hint to choose another town than Barcelona. But is that bad? A friend of mine lost a couple of hundred Euros and three days of waiting and no earning, because Barcelona was up in arms with little public transport running!

Of course one does not find comments on the Òmnium video in the business news like "Expansion". But they still write about Catalonia, and what they write weigh in more than a comment from this or that foreign media outlet or Twitter person. At the time of posting, Expansion has at least 12 articles related to the issues of Catalonia: _http://www.expansion.com/actualidadeconomica.html These articles, read by Spanish people in positions of influence, report the worries of the business community, and what is one result of the events taking place in Catalonia and the reporting done?

The other day about 540 companies had decided to move, now: 700 companies have come out of Catalonia since the 1-0 _http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/17/59e5d3b846163f790f8b4670.html and counting since: The rate of leakage of Catalonia arrives to 20 businesses per hour in the Commercial Register http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/18/59e665fbe5fdead35f8b4684.html thus the very latest refreshing of my browser revealed: "The number of companies that come out of Catalonia rises to 805 after the other 105 leaks in a day" and:
__http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/18/59e665fbe5fdead35f8b4684.html said:
[...]The president of the patronal Catalan Foment del Treball, Joaquim Gay de Montellá, said yesterday in Antena 3 that the impact of what has happened in these weeks may not be passed until 2022. [...] telling not produce unilateral declaration of independence, in which case the debacle would be much higher. The agency of credit rating Moody's has applauded the decision of the large companies of the Ibex leave Catalonia as a social club because that is positive for its solvency and legal security, ensures.

Some businesses might move, not because they really need to, but because so many others are moving, and the instability is not resolved. From the front page of Expansion and El Mundo it is clear many are talking about it. It's like a run for the exit! Consequently Citizens already pay the 'procés': Spain will lose 3,300 million and will create 75,000 more jobs less _http://www.elmundo.es/economia/macroeconomia/2017/10/18/59e65973e2704e2d4d8b4663.html

In the mean time, the Referendum Law has been cancelled:
_http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/18/59e66cfce2704e513c8b4636.html said:
The action of the independence majority of the Parliament "has put at maximum risk" the rights of all Catalans, who has left "at the mercy of a power that says they do not recognize any limits." This is stated by the Plenary of the Constitutional Court in a ruling declaring the unconstitutionality and nullity of the Referendum Law, which until yesterday was only suspended and from today, legally, no longer exists. The unconstitutionality of the Law is "patent" , and the High Court has not had any problem in reaching the unanimity with which it has been resolving the resources that affect the independence process. One reflection of this unconstitutionality is the fact that the Generalitat, for the first time and despite having participated in the proceedings, did not present any arguments in defense of its own law.

And he Government in Madrid will act accordingly:
The Government affirms that it will apply article 155 to "recover the autonomy of Catalonia" 24 hours after the last deadline given to Carles Puigdemont to respond with a yes or a no if last 10 declared the independence of Catalonia and, if so, return to constitutional legality, the PDeCAT and ERC deputies have urged the government to "stop machines" and "sit down and talk". However, at this point, the Executive is no longer willing to give more margin to Puigdemont. If tomorrow, the president insists on its ambiguity and being outside the law, the Government will immediately bring to the Senate the proposal of measures of control of autonomy under Article 155 of the Constitution. The request made to Puigdemont is "firm", stressed the vice president, Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, who has assured, at the request of the leader of Citizens, that 155 will be used "to recover the autonomy of Catalonia."

To "recover the autonomy of Catalonia" is a legal euphemism for intending to put to test the aspirations of Catalonia in terms of independance from the rest of Spain. Even Madrid is probably helped to act along these lines by the EU, IMF and the European Central Bank, who probably see the Spanish problems as a danger to their investments. In fact one could ask if Spain is more independant of the EU than Catalonia is of Madrid?
 
More companies moving out, the number is now up to 912
_http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/19/59e8baa3ca47412b1d8b45a0.html said:
The rate of departures increases: leave other 112 companies in Catalonia and the brain already reaches 917

Foreign observers and governments are realizing the issue has not disappeared as expected, and comments from various official sources are coming in:

Madrid is upset with Belgium, because of some ambiguous statements about the situation in Catelonia:
_http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/19/59e866ccca4741187c8b456e.html said:
Diplomatic tension between Spain and Belgium for Catalonia

But in spite of Belgium there is news from Macron/EU admonishing for union:
_http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/19/59e8a78e468aeb2c188b4614.html said:
Macron: the EU sent in this summit, "a message of unity around Spain"

Although the machine translation is not the best, the idea of the following is clear:
_http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/19/59e8c3c046163f1c2e8b463a.html said:
Putin to the EU about Catalonia: "Have thought of better support to Kosovo"
"Europe should have thought better before they arise contradictory processes", said the president of Russia, Vladimir Putin, in reference to the crisis of Catalonia. During his speech at the annual forum of the Club International Discussion Valdai, which is held in the Russian city of Sochi, Putin has criticized the double standards of the western countries to cases such as that of Catalonia and that of Kosovo. In the case of Spain, the Government has not recognized the independence of Kosovo.

The process for the independence of Catalonia has resulted in a "political crisis acute", noted the Russian leader and added that in any case what is happening in Spain is an "internal matter", by which the situation must be treated in accordance "with the laws of spain".

"In Spain there is a conflict, it is not known if it is going to become a crisis," he lamented Putin, who accuses Europe of having caused "the growth of the spirits separatists" supporting the independence of Kosovo. "And now he is suffering for this, as in the case of Catalonia", he said.

Putin has shown "against the policy of double standards, as it is a danger for the European Union and for the whole world". He has also spoken out against "the politics of self-centeredness, which presents the country as the best in the world, because it is something that creates insecurity for the State.

"For Putin the process separatist Catalan it is "a matter of Spain, and must be decided by Spain, according to its laws". He has also referred to the case of Crimea, although there Moscow not appealed to the Ukrainian laws.

The crisis secessionist around Catalonia and Kurdistan iraqi therefore are a consequence of the policy of the western countries, according to the Russian leader. "It turns out that for some of our colleagues there are fighters good for freedom and there are separatists who can't defend their rights or with the help of democratic mechanisms," said the head of the Kremlin, which recalled that, in relation to Catalonia, the European Union and a number of countries condemned the drivers of the independence, despite the fact that "at the time, supported the disintegration of a number of States, without hiding his joy at that fact"

Faced with the situation of Catalonia the Ministry of Foreign affairs of Russia has warned of the possibility of a "severe impairment" and "fighting mass" in Catalonia as of today.

On the same statements but in better English:
_https://www.rt.com/news/407203-eu-separatist-sentiment-kosovo/ said:
Putin on Catalonia: EU triggered rise of separatism by supporting Kosovo independence
EU countries bolstered separatist sentiment in Europe when they bowed to US pressure and supported Kosovo breaking away from Serbia. They now face such consequences as the Catalan crisis, Russia’s President Vladimir Putin says.

“As for the situation with Catalonia, we have seen a unanimous condemnation of the independence supporters by the EU and a number of other states,” Putin said. “Regarding that, I have to say – you should have thought about it earlier.”

“Did they not know about centuries-old contradictions of this nature in Europe? They knew, didn’t they? But at the time they de facto welcomed the disintegration of a number of states in Europe, with undisguised relish,” he added.

The EU’s “unanimous support of Kosovo’s secession” has proved a turning point, and Europe now faces the repercussions of short-sighted policies aimed at “pleasing the bigger brother from Washington,” Putin believes.

Putin mentioned the 2014 Crimean referendum, which led to the region’s secession from Ukraine and ultimately its reunification with Russia, as a development that was “disliked by many.”

“And now, there you have it – Catalonia, Kurdistan in another region, and the list might be far from complete,” he added.

“It turns out that in the eyes of some of our colleagues, there are legitimate fighters for independence and freedom, and then there are separatists, who cannot defend their rights even through democratic procedures. Those like us say all the time that such double standards – and it’s a glaring example of double standards – are a serious threat to the stable development of Europe and other continents, to the implementation of integration processes worldwide,” Putin said.

Matters in Catalonia came to a head when local authorities pushed for the October 1 referendum, in the teeth of objections from Madrid, which deemed it illegal. The vote took place, despite a massive police crackdown on the separatists, and led to a standoff between Barcelona and Madrid. The local Catalan government declared “suspended independence” and called for dialogue, while the federal Spanish authorities urged the region to clarify its status.

In the most recent developments, Madrid threatened Barcelona with revocation of its autonomy via Article 155 of the constitution. The Catalan Government, in its turn, promised on Thursday to declare true, not-suspended independence if such a hostile move takes place.


Many including the president of Serbia and a former British official picked up on the inconsistencies in the EU policies:
_https://www.rt.com/news/405659-catalonia-referendum-spain-serbia/ said:
Why isn’t NATO bombing Madrid for 78 days? – former British diplomat
It is a little bit late for the EU to remember international law on its western border when it was ignoring it on its eastern border, Marko Gasic, an international affairs commentator, told RT.

Catalonia's leader has vowed to declare the region's independence from Spain in the coming days.

Carles Puigdemont, the breakaway region’s president, said he does not plan to delay the declaration of independence for much longer and is ready to “act at the end of this week or the beginning of next,” he said in an interview with the BBC on Tuesday.

Spanish authorities continue to say they see the vote on Sunday as illegal and unconstitutional, while the EU gave its backing to the Spanish prime minister to resolve the crisis.

In the case of Yugoslavia and Kosovo, the EU is "deciding the fate of countries outside the European Union," because although it craves "stability in EU countries," it has no problem when it comes to "instability outside of the EU... because that gives the EU an excuse to project itself into those areas," Gasic argued.

The move has been criticized by the president of Serbia, who has accused the EU of double standards regarding Kosovo.

Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic did not mince his words when he voiced a rather obvious question: "How did you proclaim the secession of Kosovo to be legal, even without a referendum, and how did 22 European Union countries legalize this secession, while destroying European law and the foundations of European law, on which the European policy and EU policy are based?"

Marko Gasic, an international affairs commentator, said Kosovo's vote was recognized because it's not part of the union.

The political analyst went on to note that "if the EU wants to be consistent with international law, it should oppose secession in Spain, or in Serbia, or anywhere else in line with the terms of Helsinki Final Act and the UN Charter. Self-determination should be within nation states or rather within states, not without states."

"Some say the EU has double standards on this matter. I would say that they just have very low standards on this matter, in terms of international law and their consistency in obeying it. Because the EU opposes Catalan secession in Spain and it supports Kosovo secession in Serbia," Gasic told RT.

He added, "this is clearly a schizophrenic position the EU has."

Gasic provided some historical insight into the EU's past stance on Kosovo secession.

"While opposing the referendum in Spain, it was insisting and organizing referenda in Yugoslavia," he reminded. "In Yugoslavia they were saying that it didn’t matter what the constitution said; in Spain it is saying the constitution is all important. In Yugoslavia they said you have two weeks to decide whether you want independence for parts of Yugoslavia and we will decide within a week for you - this was in 1992."

Gasic expressed doubt that the EU has learned any lessons from its past experience in Yugoslavia since "it never admitted any mistakes" there.

"I believe the EU would behave in exactly the same way again because [Kosovo] is not an area that belongs to the club, the rich man’s club, as Spain does," he added.

In the case of Yugoslavia and Kosovo, the EU is "deciding the fate of countries outside the European Union," because although it craves "stability in EU countries," it has no problem when it comes to "instability outside of the EU... because that gives the EU an excuse to project itself into those areas," Gasic argued.

The political analyst went on to note that "if the EU wants to be consistent with international law, it should oppose secession in Spain, or in Serbia, or anywhere else in line with the terms of Helsinki Final Act and the UN Charter. Self-determination should be within nation states or rather within states, not without states."

"The EU behaves selectively according to where its power interests lie. It is supporting Spain not because Spain is right, I believe Spain is, it is supporting Spain because it is convenient. And it was opposing Yugoslavia and opposing Serbia now because that is an opportunity for its projected power over there."

"I think all Serbian see the comparison between Catalonia and Kosovo and Metohija. That is something that the Catalans themselves see. The Catalan government expects the EU to support its bid for independence because it is thinking 'if a drug-running, organ-harvesting criminal cabal in Kosovo can be allowed to separate from Serbia, then why shouldn’t we civilized Catalans have the same pleasure at the expense of Spain?"

You could hardly blame the Catalans for seizing the opened Pandora box the EU is responsible for. It is a little bit late for the EU to remember international law now on its Western border when it was ignoring it on its Eastern border," Gasic told RT.

Why isn't NATO bombing Madrid for 78 days?'
Former British diplomat William Mallinson told RT that a major part of the problem involving the Catalan crisis is "the enormous size of the European Union and globalization" which brings about the "slow destruction of the nation state itself.”

This undermining of the nation state causes the "smaller parts getting irritated."

Mallinson then drew parallels between what is now happening in Spain to past events when NATO opened a relentless offensive on Yugoslavia and the capital Belgrade over the question of Kosovo independence.

"Why isn’t NATO bombing Madrid for 78 days, because the situation is similar in very many ways."

“In fact, Kosovo is even more a part of Serbia than Catalonia [is to Spain.] Let’s remember in the Middle Ages joined when Ferdinand and Isabella joined all those bits of Spain together. Let’s remember that Spain is a united country but it is a conglomerate. We also must remember this dangerous knock-on effect. This is going to feed Basque anger more and more. And of course, other parts of Europe, possibly even the Walloons in Belgium, not to mention Scotland,” he continued.

Mallinson suggested a possible solution to the ongoing crisis is to "throw out the hotheads and get Mr. Rajoy to talk to the leaders of Catalonia to try to come to some kind of temporary compromise while everyone gets together and try to put a stop to these deleterious effects of globalization and the destruction of the nation state."

"Keep the interfering people out,” he emphasized.
 
thorbiorn said:
On the same statements but in better English:
_https://www.rt.com/news/407203-eu-separatist-sentiment-kosovo/ said:
Putin on Catalonia: EU triggered rise of separatism by supporting Kosovo independence

This version seems more complete:

http://tass.com/politics/971595

SOCHI, October 19./TASS/. Support by Europe for the break-up of some countries and Kosovo’s separation triggered a growth in separatist tendencies which has resulted in the situation with Catalonia, Russian President Vladimir Putin told a session of the Valdai International Discussion Club.

"In the situation with Catalonia, we have seen unanimous condemnation of independence supporters by the European Union and a number of other states. You know, I cannot but note in this connection - you should have thought about it earlier," Putin stressed.

"Why, was everybody unaware of contradictions inside Europe itself lingering for centuries? They knew it, right? Yes, they knew it," Putin stressed.

He noted that in due time, Europe practically welcomed the break-up of a number of states on the continent "without concealing its joy over that".

"Why should they have acted so thoughtlessly, proceeding from the political situation and a bid to please Big Brother from Washington, I’ll put it baldly, to unequivocally support Kosovo’s separation and thus to trigger similar processes in other regions of Europe, and in the world?" Putin asked.

At the same time, when Crimea declared its independence and then became part of Russia following a referendum, this was condemned. "And now, here you are - we have Catalonia and Kurdistan in one more region," the president went on. "This list is may be far from complete, and the question emerges then - what are we going to do and what will be our reaction to this?" he asked.

Some foreign colleagues believe "there are right fighters for independence and freedom, but also there are separatists who cannot defend their rights even with the help of democratic mechanisms," he summed up. "Such double standards are fraught with serious danger for a stable development of Europe and other continents, for the development of integration processes in the world," he stated.

Russian position on Catalonia

Putin reiterated that Russia sees the situation around Catalonia an internal affair of Spain. "All that is going on is an internal affair of Spain and must be settled within the framework of Spanish legislation in line with democratic traditions. We know that the country’s leadership is making steps in this direction," he added.

On October 1, Catalonia held a referendum on seceding from Spain. A total of 90.18% of the voters, or more than two million people, said "yes" to Catalonia’s independence. Madrid said the referendum was illegal and refused to recognize its results.

On October 10, Catalan president Carles Puigdemont said that his government would not step away from its obligations to implement the Catalan referendum law, which formally stipulates a unilateral declaration of independence from Spain. At the same time, he pointed out that Barcelona expected reasonable dialogue with Madrid, and suspended the formal process of declaring independence. After that, Puigdemont and other Catalan leaders signed a document on declaring the region’s independence from Spain but it has not taken effect yet.

On Thursday, Puigdemont sent a message to Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy threatening to hold a vote on independence in the regional parliament in case Madrid does not agree to dialogue. In response, the Spanish government said that it was activating Article 155 of the country’s Constitution, which allows Madrid to suspend Catalonia's autonomy.

Article 155 is going to be activated this Saturday.

Sigh.

More turbulence ahead.
 
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
Russia Today is just trying to Stir trouble,
It's what they do,
and is almost as bad as Julian Assanges Tweet , recommending Catalunya
Mobilise it's 1 million fighting age men.

It's sad bu inevitable to see big interests trying to push from the sides.

Say WHAT???!!!

Where do you live, SotS?
 
Gaby said:
thorbiorn said:
On the same statements but in better English:
_https://www.rt.com/news/407203-eu-separatist-sentiment-kosovo/ said:
Putin on Catalonia: EU triggered rise of separatism by supporting Kosovo independence

This version seems more complete:

http://tass.com/politics/971595

SOCHI, October 19./TASS/. Support by Europe for the break-up of some countries and Kosovo’s separation triggered a growth in separatist tendencies which has resulted in the situation with Catalonia, [...]

On Thursday, Puigdemont sent a message to Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy threatening to hold a vote on independence in the regional parliament in case Madrid does not agree to dialogue. In response, the Spanish government said that it was activating Article 155 of the country’s Constitution, which allows Madrid to suspend Catalonia's autonomy.

Article 155 is going to be activated this Saturday.

Sigh.

More turbulence ahead.
Thanks for finding the article from Tass, maybe that is where EL Mundo had it from. I think you are right on more turbulence. The fact that the companies keep moving out at high rates indicates people are very nervous. Saturday is like a choice for conflict, but I guess Madrid hopes they can clear the streets by Sunday night. They could very well succeed. I hesitate to mention it, but taking the example of what happened in other towns, Hamburg, Kiev ... is it possible some hooligans will travel tomorrow? I guess the emergency rooms in Barcelona will have extra staff on stand by.

There is yet no open violent conflict in Catalonia, but could one interpret the events as an internal economic civil war which has led to economic damages? Considering that the Spanish Civile war, 17 July 1936 – 1 April 1939, preceded the turmoil of WW2, 1 September 1939 – 2 September 1945, is Spain a thermometer for future events in Europe?
 
thorbiorn said:
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
There are 7,5m Catalans (~1m fit men) a force which if rallied vastly eclipses the available capacities of Spain's police & army as police


https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/911696647024979969
The history of disagreements and conflicts, modern and ancient, shows there are other factors besides mere numbers.

Indeed. There may be 1m fit Catalan men, but I don't believe they have an air force or navy, as the Spanish military does.
 
thorbiorn said:
There is yet no open violent conflict in Catalonia, but could one interpret the events as an internal economic civil war which has led to economic damages?

I thought about it that way too. In the mean time:

The pro-independists call for a massive withdrawal of money from the banks this Friday in protest for the change of headquarters

_http://www.elmundo.es/economia/macroeconomia/2017/10/20/59e91faee5fdeab30f8b45f3.html

[google translation]

Òmnium Cultural and the Catalan National Assembly (ANC), the two associations that lead the separatist movement in Catalonia, have appealed to all their followers so that throughout the morning of Friday, but preferably between 8 and 9 in the morning a massive withdrawal of deposits from the five major banks in the region. The initiative, promoted through Crida per la Democracia, aims to be the "first direct peaceful action" in protest of the imprisonment of the leaders of Òmnium Cultural and ANC, Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sánchez.

"It is time to demonstrate that our strength is in each one of us, that the sum of small individual gestures can change everything," says the appeal. "Do not forget it's your money." The proposal, released this Thursday through social networks, proposes to use the money to "buy a gift, make the purchase of the week or make a donation because" we want a strong Catalan economy. "

It also advises that, if such money is in entities such as CaixaBank or Banco Sabadell, let the entity's staff know that withdrawing cash is in protest of the change of seat of both banks. Caixabank has moved its headquarters and tax office to Valencia and Banco Sabadell, which intends to move its presidency to Madrid, has moved it to Alicante.

How is that exactly going to help? With friends like that, who wants enemies.

In the mean time, the Spanish government is applying article 155 in 2 weeks to give Puigdemont a margen of time, to see if confrontation can be avoided.

PP and PSOE are given two weeks to apply a minimum article 155
_http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/20/59e9154c268e3e18308b4679.html

More information on the history of the elite in Catalonia (in Spanish):

The Catalan Maidán: How the Catalan oligarchy is using independence to control the Catalans (written in 2014)
https://es.sott.net/article/55496-El-Maidan-catalan-Como-la-oligarquia-catalana-esta-usando-el-independentismo-para-controlar-a-los-catalanes

The original title in 2014: "The Catalan Maidán - Nationalism or revolution?"

Maidan. Cat: After NATO's footprints in the Procès
_https://laverdadocultablog.wordpress.com/2017/09/23/maidan-cat-tras-las-huellas-de-la-otan-en-el-proces/

I don't think that minimal confrontation is feasible once the Spanish government puts into practice Article 155. The Catalonian elite might mobilize people to be martyrs and victims to further polarize the situation. If they do that, I would not expect to see this elite in the front line with the masses of Catalonian people receiving the Spanish Army.
 
There was
_http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/20/59e99662ca4741c61a8b45ff.html said:
The Guardia Civil requisition recordings of the 1-Or the technology centre of the Generalitat
The Civil Guard increases the pressure on the Mossos d'esquadra and the role they played during the 1-O. According to have confirmed to police sources, officers from the Armed Institute have been submitted to first hour this Friday at the Center of Technologies of the Information (CTTI) of the Generalitat in L'hospitalet de Llobregat (Barcelona), to obtain by court order, a copy of the internal communications that were commanders and officers of the police of the Generalitat.

Throughout this week have been repeated entries similar to the building of the 112 in Reus (Tarragona), and this Thursday at the police station of the Mossos in Lleida. Judges from all over Catalonia have been open causes that remain secret to find out if there was passivitat volunteer of the Mossos at the time of stopping the referendum on independence. [...]
"Los Mossos d'esquadra" are the local Catalonian police force:
__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossos_d%27Esquadra said:
The Mossos d'Esquadra (Catalan pronunciation: [ˈmosuz ðəsˈkwaðɾə]; in English: Troopers, literally "Squad Lads", "Squaddies") are the autonomous police force of Catalonia, largely replacing the Guardia Civil of other regions of Spain. The cost of maintaining the "Mossos d'Esquadra" is estimated to be approximately 720 million Euros which is paid for by the Spanish government.[3][4]
The force was founded in 1951 but takes its name from the informal name of an earlier force, the Escuadras de Paisanos, formed in 1721. [...]
The Wiki says there are close to 17.000 in the local police force.

And:
_http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/20/59e90a9446163fd44b8b46a5.html said:
The Mossos not recorded all of their communications during the referendum of the 1-Or[...]The court of Instruction number 4 of Lleida also authorized yesterday the Civil Guard to be in the police station of the Mossos in Lleida all the recordings that were made before, during, and after the 1-O. The officers of the Armed Institute also came with orders to dump the contents of the mobile phones of the two knobs and the agent that the day of the referendum coordinated by the device in the region police of Ponent. The operation was still open last night, more than ten hours after it had begun.[...]
One strategy at the moment to regain control thus seems to be to put pressure on the local police. This will likely help to insure Los Mossos consistently follow the orders from the courts and the central Spanish administration when it comes to future actions.
 
Joe said:
thorbiorn said:
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
There are 7,5m Catalans (~1m fit men) a force which if rallied vastly eclipses the available capacities of Spain's police & army as police


https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/911696647024979969
The history of disagreements and conflicts, modern and ancient, shows there are other factors besides mere numbers.

Indeed. There may be 1m fit Catalan men, but I don't believe they have an air force or navy, as the Spanish military does.
Exactly. But in addition separatist propaganda speaks only of the Spanish state, trying to make invisible the SPANISH PEOPLE / NATION, that is, the vast majority, in order to steal the resources and territory that belong to everyone. So for now the danger is not that the army intervene, but civil Spanish take up arms against separatists to prevent the destruction of the country and clashes occur. That will lead to the intervention of the army to impose order...And all those dangers are latent while politicians live in a bubble isolated from this reality.
 
Gaby said:
[...]

I don't think that minimal confrontation is feasible once the Spanish government puts into practice Article 155. The Catalonian elite might mobilize people to be martyrs and victims to further polarize the situation. If they do that, I would not expect to see this elite in the front line with the masses of Catalonian people receiving the Spanish Army.
True. Important for the outcome will apart form other factors be the way the central government will implement article 155:

There was today:
_http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/20/59e9b76c22601d8f428b4583.html said:
Rajoy and Sánchez agree that there's elections in Catalonia in January[...] The president of the Government, Mariano Rajoy, and the leader of the opposition, Pedro Sanchez, have agreed that the elections in Catalonia, making necessary the application of article 155 of the Constitution are "in the shortest possible time", [...] The first to recognize it has been the former minister Carmen Calvo, one of the main negotiators of the Socialist Party with the Government to apply article 155 in Catalonia. Calvo has said this morning on TVE that the Executive and PSOE have agreed that the regional elections are in January.[...]

The main goal of the application of article 155 is to bring the self-government of Catalonia to the terrain of legality, to ensure the general interest of citizens and, finally, to call elections.[...]

_http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/20/59e9bf15ca474162088b463b.html said:
[...]The Popular Party spokesman in Congress, Rafael Hernando, has ensured that the application of article 155 of the Constitution "can not be done overnight," but required "a time for discussion and agreement."[...]
The mayor of Barcelona, Ada Colau, has warned Friday that the 'comuns' will not support a unilateral declaration of independence (DUI) "assumes the shape that assume"[...]
And a few days ago there was
_http://www.elmundo.es/baleares/2017/10/15/59e3237b468aebbf7d8b4696.html?cid=MOTB23701 said:
The boycott of the Catalan product and it stresses the entrepreneurs balearic islands

The way I interpret the above and info in previous posts in relation to the question about the possibility of a violent conflict is that the "rectification" and control of the local police force along with a drawn out 155 process with elections only in January, and the impact from businesses moving out and some consumers not buying Catalan products will have the effect of attrition, where the stronger central force, for all practical purposes, attempts to wear down the strength of the lesser.

This process might work for the central government, but presupposes they will have enough time and that the Catalan side is or remains split, as is evident from the statement of the mayor of Barcelona, or somewhat unclear about openly declaring independence, as they have been so far. However the ambiguity of the Catalan administration in their responses to Madrid, which has caused irritation in the central government seems to be a cover for trying to gain time, because preparations are being made:
_http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/20/59e9bf15ca474162088b463b.html said:
[...]The vice-president of the Catalan government, Oriol Junqueras, has rejected the holding of early elections in Catalonia, whether convened by the Government or enforced by the State in application of article 155. "Elections are not the best way to move forward" on the roadmap sovereignty, and has ensured that the only priority is to implement the mandate of the October 1, independence.[...]
Another sign of preparations is that the vice president of Catalonia, Oriol Junqueras, has made a statement pointing to preparations in progress:
_http://www.expansion.com/economia/politica/2017/10/20/59e9b739e2704e79508b45c7.html said:
Junqueras says the Government is prepared to pay officials and pensioners when independence is approved
As a minimum, the differences in the intentions behind the statements of the leaders in Catalonia and the Central Government leaves room for concern about the smoothness of future developments.
 
l apprenti de forgeron said:
Joe said:
thorbiorn said:
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
The history of disagreements and conflicts, modern and ancient, shows there are other factors besides mere numbers.

Indeed. There may be 1m fit Catalan men, but I don't believe they have an air force or navy, as the Spanish military does.
Exactly. But in addition separatist propaganda speaks only of the Spanish state, trying to make invisible the SPANISH PEOPLE / NATION, that is, the vast majority, in order to steal the resources and territory that belong to everyone. So for now the danger is not that the army intervene, but civil Spanish take up arms against separatists to prevent the destruction of the country and clashes occur. That will lead to the intervention of the army to impose order...And all those dangers are latent while politicians live in a bubble isolated from this reality.
True, and even without the participation of Spanish people in general, the excuse to justify sending in the army could be created by a fairly small group. Is it unthinkable that there are such groups within Spanish society that silently, without involving the central government are capable? Thus the central government may not even wish such an outcome, they would just be forced to act due to the initiative of other actors. It is also possible that such actions will be attempted but fail, just like the two Spanish military planes/[plans] that crashed recently.
 
Joe said:
thorbiorn said:
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
There are 7,5m Catalans (~1m fit men) a force which if rallied vastly eclipses the available capacities of Spain's police & army as police


https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/911696647024979969
The history of disagreements and conflicts, modern and ancient, shows there are other factors besides mere numbers.

Indeed. There may be 1m fit Catalan men, but I don't believe they have an air force or navy, as the Spanish military does.

Im sorry ,
I'll explain.
I thought the Statement showed Julian Assange was trying to make trouble.
War mongering a little.

Laura appeared a little sceptical that Julian and RT would stir trouble,
So I posted Julians Tweet.

I have only heard calls for total non violence by catalans.
Today I was speaking to an 80 year old lady and she described the pressure of FEAR everyone was under to
sign the referendum of 1974.

Restoring the King after he was democratically OUSTED in 1933.

Simply put , I dont trust Julian assange.
 
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