Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Look how they came and start to hit pacific people in a small village... I am sick to see all this.

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fjosep.bermejo%2Fvideos%2F10212789954010883%2F&show_text=0&width=169" width="169" height="276" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>
 

Possibility of Being

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Chu said:
Yeah, something is rotten, I think. It doesn't look at all like another "Brexit", but rather an orchestrated "democratic success".
Just came across two articles pointing in that direction:

One by Cartalucci, NATO angle:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/catalonia-independence-five-things-to-think-about/5611607

And one touching the EU angle:
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/catalonia-the-fingerprints-of-eu-power-are-all-over-it/
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
loreta said:
Look how they came and start to hit pacific people in a small village... I am sick to see all this.

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fjosep.bermejo%2Fvideos%2F10212789954010883%2F&show_text=0&width=169" width="169" height="276" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>
I try to put this video that we can see it correctly but I am unable. If you go to facebook and look for Josep Bermejo he has the video in his wall and you can see the video smaller. Sorry for that. Maybe someone can do something about this video?
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
Chu said:
Yeah, something is rotten, I think. It doesn't look at all like another "Brexit", but rather an orchestrated "democratic success". OSIT. They EU can benefit from small and rich states at their service (like Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, etc.) and from more social division and hatred, combined with easier access to immigrants, etc. OSIT. What I don't understand is why they need to paint the Spanish government in such a bad light (and it already has a bad reputation, together with its Guardia Civil) and put so much pressure there. Spain has been one major dealer of weapons, friends with Israel, Qatar et al., and has been a pretty good pawn in the "war against terrorism". So, why sacrifice that? Even if the referendum ends up being considered illegal and nothing happens, it still succeeded in making the Spanish government look terrible in opposition with the innocent and good-willed snow-flakes (and maneuvered people) in favor of independence.
Possibility of Being said:
Chu said:
Yeah, something is rotten, I think. It doesn't look at all like another "Brexit", but rather an orchestrated "democratic success".
Just came across two articles pointing in that direction:

One by Cartalucci, NATO angle:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/catalonia-independence-five-things-to-think-about/5611607

And one touching the EU angle:
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/catalonia-the-fingerprints-of-eu-power-are-all-over-it/
I was reminded of the plan-Heineken from 1992:

https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurotopia

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/386-my-kingdom-for-a-beer-heinekens-eurotopia
 

RedFox

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
loreta said:
I try to put this video that we can see it correctly but I am unable. If you go to facebook and look for Josep Bermejo he has the video in his wall and you can see the video smaller. Sorry for that. Maybe someone can do something about this video?
Couldn't seem to do anything about the video, so here's a more convenient link _https://www.facebook.com/josep.bermejo/videos/10212789954010883/
 

Andrian

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
According to the article below, published on Sputnik, it seem that some leaders of EU countries (France, Estonia, Italy) are supporting the Spain's Government it's unity and integrity:

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201710031057892002-eu-support-madrid-catalonia-independence/ said:
Several leaders of EU countries have expressed their support for Madrid's stance amid Catalan independence referendum, which took place on Sunday.

MADRID (Sputnik) – The Spanish government said that Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy held phone conversations with leaders of Estonia and France as well as heads of the European Parliament and the European Commission.

“Rajoy thanked them [leaders of EU states] for their support for the Spanish constitutional order at every moment … Rajoy pointed out that the Spanish government’s determination to prevent the illegitimate referendum is promoting the stability and democracy in the whole European Union,” the statement said on Monday.

French foreign ministry announced Monday that France supports the unity and integrity of Spain amid the dispute.

"France is committed to the unity and integrity of Spain, a friendly country, whose voice is needed on the European stage," a representative of the ministry said during a briefing.

The French ministry also added that they were confident in Spain’s democratic ability to hold a peaceful political dialogue within the constitutional law.

Italian Prime Paolo Gentiloni announced that the country was ready to assist Spain in peaceful settlement of the issue.

“We, Italians and Europeans, are viewing ourselves as big friends of Spain – and we are ready to extend a helping hand believing that is necessary to respect rules and boost the dialogue,” Gentiloni said at the Italian-Spanish forum on Monday.
Just saw on Sott that Scots are reigniting the call for UK split...
 

c.a.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Catalonia To Declare Independence From Spain On Monday
by Tyler Durden Oct 4, 2017 8:33 AM
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-04/catalonia-declare-independence-spain-monday
Links within:
Spanish stocks tumbled, with the IBEX index sliding into a 10% correction, following an overnight report that Catalan leader Puigdemont was set to make a statement at 9 p.m. (1900 GMT) on Wednesday, after an all-party committee of the region's parliament meets to agree a date for a plenary session on independence. That concluded moments ago and CUP, the pro-secession party that is a majority in the Catalan parliament, has announced it will declared independence from Spain in plenary session on Monday, El Pais reports.

As reported last night, Catalan President Carles Puigdemont told the BBC that his government would ask the region's parliament to declare independence after tallying votes from last weekend's referendum, which Madrid says was illegal. "This will probably finish once we get all the votes in from abroad at the end of the week and therefore we shall probably act over the weekend or early next week," he said in remarks published on Wednesday.

Puigdemont’s comments came after Spain’s King Felipe VI accused secessionist leaders on Tuesday of shattering democratic principles and dividing Catalan society, as tens of thousands protested against a violent police crackdown on Sunday’s vote. The Catalan leader is due to make a statement at 9 p.m. (1900 GMT) on Wednesday, during which he is expected to announce that Catalonia will formally announce independence on Monday.

Spain has been rocked by the Catalan vote and the Spanish police response to it, which saw batons and rubber bullets used to prevent people voting. Hundreds were injured, in scenes that brought international condemnation.

And while the constitutional crisis in Spain, the euro zone's fourth-biggest economy, has hit Spanish stocks and bonds, raising Madrid's borrowing costs, it has so far failed to have an adverse impact on the broader European market, or the Euro which has remained relatively steady in recent days. As shares in Spain’s big lenders fell on Wednesday, Economy Minister Luis de Guindos tried to reassure investors and customers.
“Catalan banks are Spanish banks and European banks are solid and their clients have nothing to fear,”
he said on the sidelines of a conference in Madrid.

According to Reuters, Caixabank, Catalonia’s largest lender, said in a memo to employees late on Tuesday that its only objective was to “protect clients’, shareholders’ and employees’ interests”.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, a conservative who has taken a hard line on the issue, faces a huge challenge to see off Catalan independence without further unrest. Rajoy has been fighting to maintain control after 2.3 million Catalans voted in Sunday’s makeshift referendum and the regional police force ignored orders to prevent the ballot. Preparing for launching the "nuclear option", Bloomberg added that Rajoy is mulling if, and when, to use Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution to take direct control from the administration in Barcelona.

It is unclear what Madrid's response will be if, or when, Catalonia follows through on its threat to declare independence. One option is for Madrid to challenge the declaration at the Constitutional Court, which will immediately rule against it. Next, if the Catalan government ignores the ruling, Madrid is likely to trigger article 155 of the Constitution to strip out Catalonia’s autonomy and to call for regional elections. This would be a risk-negatie scenario, and one which Citi said "could trigger a civil rebellion, with possible wide disruptions and violent confrontations.
A move by the regional police force to ally with the pro-independence parties could significantly escalate the situation."
Video From the comments of ZH Peanut Gallery:

LAS CLOACAS DE INTERIOR ( THE STATE'S SECRET CESSPIT )-1:18:54
MEDIAPRO
Published on Aug 1, 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXrYBUAcYUo
Las malas prácticas y la corrupción en el Ministerio del Interior a partir de las grabaciones entre el ministro Jorge Fernández Díaz y Daniel de Alfonso que reveló el diario Público en junio de 2016. Con testimonio en exclusiva de dos comisarios y un sargento de la guardia civil, desvela una red de intereses y corruptelas que va más allá de la persecución a los enemigos políticos, que configura una trama de favoritismos y corruptelas que implica a policías, jueces, fiscales y empresarios: una estructura dentro del estado que ofrece sus servicios a los más poderosos. El documental repasa también las malas prácticas en el Ministerio del Interior desde el inicio de la transición.
 
Chu said:
Yeah, something is rotten, I think. It doesn't look at all like another "Brexit", but rather an orchestrated "democratic success". OSIT. They EU can benefit from small and rich states at their service (like Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, etc.)
or ICELAND ?

Chu said:
and from more social division and hatred, combined with easier access to immigrants,
Its in the South that the Immigrants usually enter,

Chu said:
etc. OSIT. What I don't understand is why they need to paint the Spanish government in such a bad light (and it already has a bad reputation, together with its Guardia Civil) and put so much pressure there. Spain has been one major dealer of weapons, friends with Israel, Qatar et al., and has been a pretty good pawn in the "war against terrorism". So, why sacrifice that? Even if the referendum ends up being considered illegal and nothing happens, it still succeeded in making the Spanish government look terrible in opposition with the innocent and good-willed snow-flakes (and maneuvered people) in favor of independence.
September 2016
All-female flotilla sets out from Barcelona to Gaza


I Live here in Barcelona and have been following the Independence movement for 10 years.

APRIL 2017,


There are few Snow Flakes or Manouvered people, and such a statement is insulting and condescending to say the least.

The question that should be asked is why So Few people have come out to Condemn the Spanish Fascist Police.

All the Co-In.Tel sites of the Alt media are against independence,
and this issue has Fully Exposed people Like patrick hennigson
and the UK 5th Column.
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
There are few Snow Flakes or Manouvered people, and such a statement is insulting and condescending to say the least.
I think that you feel strongly about this because you are on the ground there where it is hard to avoid the "psychology of the masses" (See Gustave Le Bon in the forum).

SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
The question that should be asked is why So Few people have come out to Condemn the Spanish Fascist Police.
If by people you mean the official EU agencies, NATO et al., then yes. The rest of people are condemning the actions of the police in a big way. There is hardly nothing but that coming from my twitter feed from Spain and with good reason!

The Spanish government's pathology is out there for all of the world to see. What we don't hear about is this side of the story from the Catalonian elite. For both elites we are more like cattle.

Perhaps someone pulling strings knows that the Spanish government can be relied to act that way? Considering their track record and that they are already mobilizing the army, it doesn't bode well.

This is like an unstoppable avalanche. I also think that it is intended that Catalonians feel so strongly about their independence. At long-term and with a wider perspective, who benefits from this mess? I think there are some people in high places delighted to see the mess that is probably about to be unleashed in Spain, but I hope to be wrong. With this prospect on the horizon, at this point I hope to see the Catalonians going their way peacefully and the Spanish government accepting that without pulling out big guns.

Just some thoughts.
 

caballero reyes

The Living Force
From BBC News en espanol:OCTOBER 1/2017

Referéndum del 1 de octubre: ¿fue Cataluña alguna vez independiente?


In the midst of the climate of tension experienced in Catalonia and the rest of Spain in this matter,many people are asking themselves: Was this territory ever independent? Catalonia, in northeastern Spain, is one of the most prosperous regions of the country.

This question has no easy answer, since historians and scholars do not agree on whether there ever existed anything like an independent Catalonia.

Members of the Catalan Institute of Studies (IEC), a private entity based in Barcelona founded at the beginning of the 20th century, go back to the Middle Ages to answer affirmatively to this question.

A different concept "Catalonia was independent (in the past), taking into account the political and historical circumstances of each moment," the lawyer and historian Josep Cruanyes,a member of the organization, told BBC Mundo.

In his opinion, "it could be said that from the XI-XII century until the beginning of the eighteenth century Catalonia was a state,understanding what was an independent state at that time."

His colleague in the same IEC, Jordi Casassas, explains, for his part, that "independence is a modern concept, as we understand it."
"But it is evident that in the Middle Ages, Catalonia, with the Crown of Aragon, was the principality of Catalonia,was an independent area, an independent country, which also had its own parliament,its own legal system and a commercial code of its own was copied throughout the Mediterranean world and therefore was an independent area. "

5 keys to understand the tension that is experienced in Catalonia by the referendum on independence on October 1

How is a new country formed?
Casassas'allusion to the Catalan "own parliament" refers to the Catalan Cortes, which, like the Valencian and Aragon courts,remained active,although their call was irregular throughout the Middle Ages and until 1714, when were dissolved after the War of
Succession that faced Bourbon and Austrias by the throne of Spain to have left this vacancy.

Precisely in 1714, with the enthronement of Felipe V de Borbon,Catalonia loses its privileges and organs of self-government,it is the turning point in which the controversy between historians is centered.
Contrary to what the IEC members maintain,Professor Xosé Manoel Núñez Seixas,from the University of Santiago de Compostela and an expert on nationalisms,believes that it can not be said that Catalonia was never independent.

Contrary to what the IEC members maintain, Professor Xosé Manoel Núñez Seixas, from the University of Santiago de Compostela and an expert on nationalisms, believes that it can not be said that Catalonia was never independent.

Xosé Manoel Núñez Seixas:
"Catalonia was a full nation before 1714, with its own state? I would say no, because the nation-states only exist,from my point of view,from the end of the eighteenth century,when the holder of sovereignty happens to be the set of citizens with rights that are equal before the law and ceases to be the king the foundation of political legitimacy.

1714, key date for the independentistas.
Some independentistas consider that between 1705 and 1714 Catalonia was fighting for its independence.

For Núñez Seixas,"from a serious historical point of view this can not be maintained".
"It belongs to the bitter Catalan historiography the myth of 1714 as the loss of independence, but this is not so,"says the professor.

The war that is referred to is known in the historiography like War of Succession, since it was the Crown of Spain that was between Philip of Bourbon and Carlos of Austria; a dynastic war which, according to the Santiago de Compostela expert, "was not a conflict between Spain and Catalonia," although Catalonia paid a heavy price for supporting the defeated candidate.

Manipulation in the present.

This is explained by Josep María Fradera, a professor of History at Pompeu Fabra University in Barcelona,who denies that Catalonia was independent at some point in its history, but admits the discontent after the War of Succession.

"The conflict," recalls Fradera, "ended with Catalan institutions that had survived until then,that is true." In addition to a very hard way and with relevant punishments,many Catalans felt defeated,but not all,because some they supported the Bourbons,but the punishment fell on the Catalan institutions that had survived until then ".

Fradera also provides another analysis.

"All societies need to make their own version of history,not only this,but also because it is experiencing a moment of great tension, it has evidently accentuated it much more," he says.

He added: "These who also speak of Spain as a unit since the Catholic Monarchs is also an ideological construct that has little to do with reality that is much more complex.

Nor was Spain an independent nation because Spain itself as such did not it existed. "

Translation is from google and mine.

-------------- ------------- --------------

THE SAYING GOES: FREEDOM IS TO CHOOSE FROM WHOM YOU WANT TO BE SLAVE.
DICE EL DICHO: LIBERTAD ES ESCOGER DE QUIEN QUIERES SER ESCLAVO.

If catalonia manages to be independent it is very possible that the Basque country follows the example.
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Gaby said:
at this point I hope to see the Catalonians going their way peacefully and the Spanish government accepting that without pulling out big guns.
Would be nice, but I don't think it's going to happen. The EU 'central powers' are fully backing Madrid (was likely talked about and planned that way in advance) and Madrid has made it clear last Sunday that they are willing to hold Catalunya by force if necessary. I don't think the Catalans have the stomach to stand up against those kind of strong arm tactics. Most likely a deal will be struck and the Catalan authorities will get more autonomy and the issue will go away for a while. Certainly though the true face of EU 'democracy' was seen on Sunday, and it's rather interesting that it was immediately (the very same day) pushed off the front pages by Las Vegas.
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
caballero reyes said:
If catalonia manages to be independent it is very possible that the Basque country follows the example.
That's the main reason for the resistance from Madrid and the EU. Both fear a 'contagion' that would break Spain into separate countries and encourage other separatist movements elsewhere in Europe. They're determined to hold on to the power bloc.
 

caballero reyes

The Living Force
The original article of the BBC in Spanish of the previous reply 24:

En medio del clima de crispación que se vive en Cataluña y el resto de España por este asunto, son muchos los que se preguntan: ¿fue alguna vez en la historia independiente este territorio?
Cataluña, en el noreste de España, es una de las regiones más prósperas del país.

Esta cuestión no tiene fácil respuesta, ya que historiadores y estudiosos no se ponen de acuerdo en si existió alguna vez algo parecido a una Cataluña independiente.
Miembros del Instituto de Estudios Catalanes (IEC, por sus siglas en catalán), una entidad de carácter privado con sede en Barcelona fundada a principios del siglo XX, se remontan a la Edad Media para responder afirmativamente a esta cuestión.
Un concepto diferente
"Cataluña fue independiente (en el pasado), teniendo en cuenta las circunstancias políticas e históricas de cada momento", afirma a BBC Mundo el abogado e historiador Josep Cruanyes, miembro de la citada organización.
En su opinión, "se podría decir que desde el siglo XI-XII hasta principios del siglo XVIII Cataluña fue un Estado, entendiendo lo que era un Estado independiente en aquel momento".

Su compañero en el mismo IEC, Jordi Casassas, explica, por su parte, que "el de independencia es un concepto moderno, tal y como lo entendemos nosotros".
"Pero es evidente que en la Edad Media, Cataluña, con la Corona de Aragón, fue el principado de Cataluña, fue un área independiente, un país independiente, que además tenía un parlamento propio, un sistema jurídico propio y un código comercial propio que fue copiado por todo el mundo mediterráneo y por lo tanto fue un área independiente".
5 claves para entender la tensión que se vive en Cataluña por el referendo de independencia del 1º de octubre
¿Cómo se forma un nuevo país?
La alusión de Casassas al "parlamento propio" catalán hace referencia a las Cortes catalanas, que al igual que las valencianas y las de Aragón, se mantuvieron activas, aunque su convocatoria fue irregular, durante toda la Edad Media y hasta 1714, fecha en que quedaron disueltas tras la guerra de Sucesión que enfrentó a Borbones y Austrias por el trono de España al haber quedado este vacante.
Precisamente en 1714, en el que con la entronización de Felipe V de Borbón, Cataluña pierde sus fueros y órganos de autogobierno, es el punto de inflexión en el que se centra la controversia entre historiadores.
En contra de lo que sostienen los miembros del IEC, el catedrático Xosé Manoel Núñez Seixas, de la Universidad de Santiago de Compostela y experto en nacionalismos, considera que no puede afirmarse que Cataluña fuera nunca independiente.
Pertenece a la historiografía catalanista el mito de 1714 como la pérdida de la independencia, pero esto no es así;

Xosé Manoel Núñez Seixas
"¿Cataluña fue una nación plena antes de 1714, con estado propio? Yo diría que no, porque los estados-nación sólo existen, desde mi punto de vista, a partir de finales del siglo XVIII, cuando el titular de la soberanía pasa a ser el conjunto de los ciudadanos con derechos que son iguales ante la ley y deja de ser el rey el fundamento de la legitimidad política".

1714, fecha clave para los independentistas
Algunos independentistas consideran que entre 1705 y 1714 Cataluña estuvo luchando por su independencia.
Para Núñez Seixas, "desde un punto de vista histórico serio esto no se puede mantener".
"Pertenece al acerbo de la historiografía catalanista el mito de 1714 como la pérdida de la independencia, pero esto no es así", afirma el catedrático.

La contienda a la que se hace referencia es conocida en la historiografía como "Guerra de Sucesión", ya que era la Corona de España la que se dirimía entre Felipe de Borbón y Carlos de Austria; una guerra dinástica que, según recuerda el experto de Santiago de Compostela, "no fue un conflicto entre España y Cataluña", aunque Cataluña pagó un alto precio por apoyar al candidato derrotado.

Manipulación en el presente
Es algo que explica el también catedrático de Historia de la Universidad Pompeu Fabra de Barcelona, Josep María Fradera, quien niega que Cataluña fuera independiente en algún momento de su historia, pero admite el descontento que se vivió tras la Guerra de Sucesión.

"El conflicto -recuerda Fradera- terminó con las instituciones catalanas que habían sobrevivido hasta entonces, eso es cierto. Además de un modo muy duro y con castigos relevantes. En ese momento, muchos catalanes se sintieron derrotados, aunque no todos, porque algunos también apoyaban a los Borbones. Pero el castigo cayó sobre las instituciones catalanas que habían pervivido hasta entonces".

Fradera aporta además otro análisis:
"Todas las sociedades necesitan fabricar su propia versión de la historia. No solo esta, todas. Como además esta vive un momento de gran tensión, evidentemente lo ha acentuado mucho más", señala.
Y añade: "Estos que hablan también de que España ya fue una unidad desde los Reyes Católicos es también un constructo ideológico que tiene poco que ver con la realidad que es mucho más compleja. Tampoco España era una nación independiente porque España propiamente como tal no existía".
--------------- --------------- ---------------

DICE EL DICHO: LIBERTAD ES ESCOGER DE QUIEN QUIERES SER ESCLAVO

Short video

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-41340911/catalonia-referendum-protests-over-raids-to-halt-vote
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
RedFox said:
loreta said:
I try to put this video that we can see it correctly but I am unable. If you go to facebook and look for Josep Bermejo he has the video in his wall and you can see the video smaller. Sorry for that. Maybe someone can do something about this video?
Couldn't seem to do anything about the video, so here's a more convenient link _https://www.facebook.com/josep.bermejo/videos/10212789954010883/
Thank you very much for the link.
 

l apprenti de forgeron

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Joe said:
caballero reyes said:
If catalonia manages to be independent it is very possible that the Basque country follows the example.
That's the main reason for the resistance from Madrid and the EU. Both fear a 'contagion' that would break Spain into separate countries and encourage other separatist movements elsewhere in Europe. They're determined to hold on to the power bloc.
The problem is that Spain is not the same case of Ireland or Scotland. In Spain they have the same history, ethnicity, religion and language. But there are pathological dudes like Assange who are pushing for civil war in Spain (another more!):





It seems assange is following a script from the CIA or Dana Rohrabacher or whoever it is to get his deal with Trump, putting his grain of sand in the cause of destroying the European nations. And for that he does not care that thousands of Spanish people have to die.
The tragedy of Spain is that it has not broken with the Franco regime: after the death of the dictator has been imposed on the nation a state of parties that fragmented in 17 autonomies to Spain so that the second and third rows of state politicians (and their families and friends) had positions and good remunerations of the public money. Political corruption in Spain is total, there is NO NATIONALISM, they are all statalists: they want states or fiefs of their own to steal and have position. In Spain both, centralists and separatists, are fascists. And so that will continue until they really break with fascism-statism and conquer a democratic, modern and presidentialist Spanish republic (separating the nation / people from the state), overcoming the prohibition by partidocracy over the republic. It's because there is still no democratic break with fascism (as happened in Italy and Germany, at least in a symbolic way) that any foreigner as Assange can speak of Spain without any knowledge of its people and history. I hope that soon the Spanish people will manage to arrange their own affairs, without strange interference, and to conquer the collective political freedom and representative democracy that they never had -and the other European countries do not know either-.
 
Top Bottom