Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

caballero reyes

The Living Force
THE PRIDE OF THE CATALANS

The people who live here in America / Mexico, we know something about Europe from what news agencies say, which are actually news leaked or filtered or just tourist news of the beauties of Europe when it is not covered with snow, and it is logical to think that the same thing happens with the perceptions that they have there in Europe about America, most of the times are wrong perceptions.
To this we can add the stories about America that the "official history" has been in charge to spread there in Europe.

One of these phrases that are constantly repeated is that Spain conquered Mexico when it was clear that Spain did not exist as a nation yet, the one that organized the so-called "conquest" of Mexico, which was actually an invasion, was the kingdom of Castile, or rather I would say that it was a European plan, understood as a fusion of small kingdoms under the yoke of the European clergy, a well planned / organized program, and imposed the Castilian language when in Mexico there were languages dialects very beautiful like the Nahuatl language, but imposed the program of European invaders.
Although there is now an educational plan to increase the use of English and French that many thousands of Mexicans speak or are learning.

The issue of the independence of Catalonia has made me think and remember these concepts and also to think about many of the problems that afflict Europe in general, despite having a reputation as a continent with a lot of cultural heritage.

I began to take an interest in and inform myself about Cataluna in particular when a writer asserted that the order of the Knights Templar originated in Cataluna, and this seemed to me particularly interesting because of the significance of this order of warrior monks in the socioeconomic development of Europe.

After reading Laura's stories in "The wave" about the Pyrenees / Alchemy / Rennes le chateau, Cathars, Catalans etc., I took other stories about those regions and I am clear why the Catalans are very proud of their history, a history of a region that is prior to the unified states of what we now call Spain.

The original Catalunya was a fluctuating region between France and the south of the Pyrenees, in the Iberian peninsula and,thus,the importance of this and other aspects that make the Catalans proud of its history. It is quite possible that these ideas together with the economic or monetary issue are the cause of this desire to be recognized as an independent country, if this is possible in today's Europe.
 
Latest from the Presidents speech in Parliament,

Catalan president says Catalonia has won right to independence, but suspends declaration to pursue dialogue

Catalan president Carles Puigdemont has proposed further dialogue in order to work toward independence.

He says:

I want to follow people’s will for Catalonia to become an independent state.

The parliament erupts with applause. But he says the government wants to delay any formal declaration. He continues:

We propose to suspend the effect of the independence declaration... in order to work towards putting into practice the result of the referendum... Today, we are making a gesture of responsibility in favour of dialogue.

So he has Ignored the Co in Tel,
Ass-ange.

Catalans I have spoken to,
Really just want a Good Accountable Govt.
Something many believe they can only get by breaking from madrid
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
I think these articles are pretty good in depicting the current state of affairs and sentiments in Spain:

Echoes of the Spanish Civil War?
https://www.sott.net/article/364401-Echoes-of-the-Spanish-Civil-War

8 points about the crisis in Catalonia: A counterview
https://www.sott.net/article/364352-8-points-about-the-crisis-in-Catalonia-A-counterview

As for more background on the historical domestic politics that Alexander Mercouris founds lacking, it is mostly in Spanish:

Cataluña y España: lucha de élites para renovar el Régimen del 78 sin el menor contenido social
https://es.sott.net/article/55146-Cataluna-y-Espana-lucha-de-elites-para-renovar-el-Regimen-del-78-sin-el-menor-contenido-social

"War of the elites" as Pepe Escobar explains sums it up for a lot of people. Alexander Mercouris portrays the general sentiment of deeply conservative Spain. And the Catalonian elite have had no problems in mobilizing police violence against "their people" in the past when it was convenient for them.

Alternative political parties in Spain are sponsored and/or courtesy of Soros money. The left is corrupt since a long time ago. And the last Spanish elections might have been tampered with, but my impression is that confronted with a deeply conservative pathological elite or a deeply communist pathological elite, the Spanish will prefer the former one.

I've also been following Julian Assange's point of view on the matter on twitter which is clearly pro-Catalonian, showing a vested interested in a "free" technological city or country, or so it seems to me. Can't blame him. If the day of tomorrow there are more medical options offered in Catalonia without the restrictions of some of the Spanish regulations, I can't deny that I would be happy to support that. I also couldn't help but see the same symbolical connection Assange saw on October the 12th. What happened is that after the military parade of October the 12th in Madrid, a Euro jet that took part of the demonstrations crashed as it arrived to its base for seemingly no reason at all. The pilot died.

Nevertheless this is not a fun matter nor can't we ignore all the facts that go contrary to our self-interests in the situation. One thing that I haven't seen highlighted in English-speaking media is the mass exodus of important companies and banks from Catalonia. From where I sit the following was the sequence of events:

The Catalonian Referendum took place. Some who had money on Catalonian banks moved all their finances to Spanish banks. Some did it out of pure concern, others as a statement. I used to have my money in a local small bank which was later absorbed by a Catalonian bank due to the economic crisis back in 2012. I was displeased by that, but didn't saw the need of moving my money out of the Catalonian bank. The Referendum changed that. Can't really have my Spanish salary outside of Spain, it is simply not practical. After I moved my money out of the Catalonian bank, I learned that many people have done that weeks before and in the days prior and later after I did. Then the Catalonian banks made the statement that clients had nothing to fear because their interests had priority. That didn't helped, because it seems that more people took their money out. The Central EU bank was saying that over 21 million euros in cash were withdrawn the days following the Referendum from EU banks. The next days after their statement of "there is nothing to fear", Catalonia's major banks declared that they were moving their headquarters to the rest of Spain (Valencia, Alicante, Palma de Mallorca).

And it turns out it was not necessarily Spanish clients moving their finances. The Spanish banks in Aragon, the neighboring province of Catalonia, were completely overwhelmed with requests for new accounts from Catalonian themselves, some of who where clearly pro-Independence. During this time, over 20 major companies with their headquarters in Catalonia declared that they were moving their HQ out after Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy facilitated that bureaucracy. Some of them include important industries and one of the world's most prestigious editorial house, Planeta. Now it is the lawyers and notaries who are overwhelmed with the paperwork. All of this acted like a restraint for those with high sentiments of seeing Catalonia independent ASAP.

It is not funny. Although there are always histericized people who see a delight in the above, even the Spanish-based competition banks saw the fear-based financial moves with concern.

From what I see, a sentiment shared by countless of others, the damage has already been done. It doesn't matter that the Madrid elite might have more in common with the Catalonian elite than each population with their respective elites (although one might be smarter than the other). The last few weeks were highly hysterical. People are against people, brothers against brothers. The drama has since then calmed down, but it can always go up in this volatile situation.

I don't know what is going to happen. Either or, folk will pay the consequences.

Just some current thoughts on the situation.
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thank you Gaby for putting light in this obscure situation. It is difficult to understand what is happening when no living in Spain. I live in Spain but so far away, in a little island in the middle of the Atlantic that I have the sensation not to live in Spain.

Yesterday we meet a man that told us that his family are against one to the other, that he does not talk anymore with friends, etc. What a situation where politics make you be mad with your family or your friends. How convenient for the PTB that people are against the other, in lieu of taking care and have common sense. This is crazy! It is anyway a very interesting situation and also a little scary situation.
 
I Live in Barcelona,
and Know of at least one old lady who did not vote for fear of the Police.

It is to be conjectured that these Companies who are so quick to take the Francoist Madrid Side,
might well have sent a friendly memo to their workers reminding them of the facial recognition technology that exists today,
and that it would be illegal and disobedient to vote.

One of the best Video backgrounds i have seen is the one below.
Incidentally , to appreciate the contempt spanish have for catalans.
I was told this story by a guy at the independence rally on tuesday.

When mario Rajoy had to appear before the Judges to give evidence in a Corruption scandal he said,
" Dont look in my pockets ,
look in the catalans pockets"

The case concerned a PP ruling party Slush Fund based in switzerland.
An odd remark then, typical of spanish arrogance.


https://youtu.be/FRU-CL9HNW8
 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Gaby said:
I think these articles are pretty good in depicting the current state of affairs and sentiments in Spain:

Echoes of the Spanish Civil War?
https://www.sott.net/article/364401-Echoes-of-the-Spanish-Civil-War

8 points about the crisis in Catalonia: A counterview
https://www.sott.net/article/364352-8-points-about-the-crisis-in-Catalonia-A-counterview

As for more background on the historical domestic politics that Alexander Mercouris founds lacking, it is mostly in Spanish:

Cataluña y España: lucha de élites para renovar el Régimen del 78 sin el menor contenido social
https://es.sott.net/article/55146-Cataluna-y-Espana-lucha-de-elites-para-renovar-el-Regimen-del-78-sin-el-menor-contenido-social

"War of the elites" as Pepe Escobar explains sums it up for a lot of people. Alexander Mercouris portrays the general sentiment of deeply conservative Spain. And the Catalonian elite have had no problems in mobilizing police violence against "their people" in the past when it was convenient for them.

Alternative political parties in Spain are sponsored and/or courtesy of Soros money. The left is corrupt since a long time ago. And the last Spanish elections might have been tampered with, but my impression is that confronted with a deeply conservative pathological elite or a deeply communist pathological elite, the Spanish will prefer the former one.
[...]
One thing that I haven't seen highlighted in English-speaking media is the mass exodus of important companies and banks from Catalonia.
[...]
I looked up Spanish papers and found:
_http://www.elmundo.es/economia/empresas/2017/10/13/59e0ccdde2704eba4d8b45b0.html said:
Economic consequences of the challenge secessionist
At least 540 companies have abandoned Catalonia from the query in the 1-OrAt least 540 companies have left Catalonia and have moved to other points of Spain since the referendum illegal last October 1, [...]In the opposite direction, from the 2 of October has transferred its registered office to Catalonia 22 companies, which leaves a negative balance of 518.[...]
For names see:
_http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/11/59ddecbbe2704e323c8b4585.html said:
What companies have pulled out of Catalonia: see the interactive chart
_http://www.expansion.com/empresas/2017/10/06/59d74d6e22601d64698b469f.html?cid=OUTSINER001&s_kw=elmundo said:
Bimbo, Cola Cao and Applus add to the exodus of companies from Catalonia
More than 4,800 companies have come out of Catalonia in five years _http://www.expansion.com/economia/2017/10/07/59d7e29722601de0658b45f2.html [...]
And in response to this:
_http://www.expansion.com/catalunya/2017/10/09/59dbc85ce5fdeada7b8b45ad.html?cid=OUTSINER001&s_kw=elmundo said:
Barcelona is preparing a "contingency plan" to address the exit of companies
There was an interview with a retired liberal intellectual who gave his comment on the exodus:
_http://www.elmundo.es/opinion/2017/10/14/59e0e699e2704e53288b45f8.html said:
[...]
[RAÚL CONDE:]Companies with more weight of the productive apparatus Catalan have moved or have announced that they are going to do it their headquarters outside of Catalonia. What could not the policy or the Justice may be able to the economy?
[Antonio Garrigues Walker (Madrid, 1934):]
The transfer of enterprises can have an impact on many people and on many ideological positions. I have followed the debate on the role of the Catalan bourgeoisie, but the process of independence is explained more by the pressure from the bottom up than from the top down. Has influenced, above all, the breeding ground of social movements and separatists. The behavior of the bourgeoisie has been reasonable. Entrepreneurs have been asking for dialogue.[...]
I saw a note that the turmoil would influence the economy of Spain negatively in 2018:
_http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/13/59e0ee96468aeb82608b46a2.html said:
Guindos admits that the crisis in Catalonia will slow down the economic growth of Spain in 2018The minister of Economy, Luis de Guindos, has recognized today that Spain will have to lower its growth forecast for 2018 as a result of the crisis in Catalonia. [...]
[...]
The effect more drastic and immediate is being in the investment in Catalonia, which represents around 20% of the GDP of that community. Consumption will be affected more gradually, like tourism, and exports aren't likely to suffer.

Guindos has insisted that the company have gone from Catalonia "are looking forward", and gave them to understand that the divisions within the Catalan nationalism between the more conservative sectors of the CuU and to the left of the CUP are in great measure responsible for this situation. "The law is not divisible. If you have failed to comply with a part of the legality, you don't give any credibility that tomorrow is not going to violate the other."
Some acronyms for political parties can be looked up here: _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Catalonia though "CuU" I could not find, but CUP is Candidatura d'Unitat Popular:
_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Unity_Candidacy said:
[...]Ideology[edit]
The CUP website describes the entity as "an assembly-based political organization spread throughout the Catalan Countries that works for a country that's independent, socialist, environmentally sustainable and free from the domination of the patriarchy".[11][third-party source needed]
"National liberation" [edit]
The CUP defends the unity of the Catalan-speaking areas, or Catalan Countries, which they believe should be allowed to constitute an independent republic, according to the principles of self-determination. [...][12][...]
A map of the extend of the Catalan Countries can be found on _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Countries It is attached, in case it changes later.
Below are some videos about the history of the Iberian peninsula, Catalonia and the Spanish civil war

The Animated History of Spain in less than 10 minutes

https://youtu.be/nPcfZLaMoAo
Catalonia independence from Spain explained in 4 minutes (Catalonia referendum 2017)

https://youtu.be/WpoA23fn71o
The History of Catalonia in 8 minutes

https://youtu.be/46T24kESeek
The Hidden History Of The Spanish Civil War in 15 minutes

https://youtu.be/qvBhbnd69mA
Interesting that the platform for destroying the Spanish Republic in the Spanish civil war came from outside, or we can say, from an area which Spain had conquered.

Even today _http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4959952/Spain-supporters-fascist-salutes-independence-demo.html Far-right Spanish thugs scream ‘sieg heil’ and perform NAZI SALUTES in praise of the police officers who tried to put down Calatonia’s independence

Jake Wallis Simons writes that _https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/francos-fascism-is-alive-and-kicking-in-spain/
Franco’s fascism is alive and kicking in SpainAfter the demonstration in Barcelona on Sunday, I happened to walk past the city’s main police station. A unionist crowd had gathered to praise the officers who had so brutally suppressed the Catalan referendum the previous week. Wrapped in Spanish flags, they were chanting Viva España and throwing flowers. Then they started performing the Nazi salute.

I hung around to report on it (a video that I shot on my phone was retweeted many thousands of times). The fascists, I realised, had based themselves in a pub next door. I went in, filming on my GoPro, and saw police drinking with far-Right thugs, smiling as they were serenaded with Sieg Heils.

Later, a masked activist tried to burn a Catalan flag. This time, however, a skinhead spotted me filming and I almost had my head kicked in (as another journalist had earlier that day). Again, no intervention from the cops.

Far-right activists hand-in-glove with police: it’s hard to think of a clearer illustration of the rude health of fascism in modern Spain. For this was not just a one-off. In recent decades, Francoism has been viewed with a blind eye by the Spanish state, which has harnessed it for political advantage.

Understanding this begins with Franco’s deathbed. One peaceful night in November 1975, at the age of 82, El Generalísimo breathed his last. He had presided over concentration camps, ordered the murder of hundreds of thousands of his countrymen, installed a regime of state terror and brainwashing, ordered the mass kidnap of the children of his opponents, yet he had clinched a natural death as a free man. Worse than that: the levers of power were still tight in his pale and cooling fist.

It is true that by the Seventies, the regime was declining and had begun to be seen as outdated. But not for Franco the cyanide capsule in the Berlin bunker. Not for him the summary execution outside the Villa Belmonte. The Germans and Italians learned the hard way that fascism ends in humiliation, but the Spanish strongman was never beaten. Consequently, although Spain soon transitioned to democracy, a reckoning with its fascist past never followed.

Such a reckoning has been dodged ever since by Madrid, for the sake of political expediency. Parliamentary attempts to retrospectively delegitimise the Franco years have been blocked by the ruling Partido Popular (PP). As a result, although not praised in schools, Francoism remains in the official annals of the national story.

In 2007, the Law of Historical Memory – an attempt to formally acknowledge Franco’s victims and limit public adulation of him – was passed by the then-Socialist government. But its impact was limited. It did not, for example, stop the former minister and MEP Jaime Mayor Oreja from describing Spain’s fascist experiment as ‘an extraordinarily peaceful period’.

His nostalgia was not unusual. Franco brought death and repression, but also stability and rising living standards. When seen from the economic doldrums that Spain finds itself in today, some harbour the unarticulated belief that the fascist years were the golden ones.
As a comment on the stregnth of Fascism in Barcelona, I learned from an acquaintance that Jewish music played in the streets can no longer be heard, and that when her origin was rumoured in the neighbourhood, Spanish fascist would walk outside the house she stayed in and shout Hitler - meant as a threat. I asked her about what she thinks about the seperation of Catalonia from Spain. She wishes Spain to remain as it is, she thinks the independance of Catalonia it is a poorly conceived idea that will make everybody weaker. Divide and rule comes to mind. As I see it, it will not root out the pathocracy from neither Catalonia nor from the rest of Spain, and that is completely missed by the people who like to be "independent".

There was this comment on the situation in Catalonia:
_https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/10/13/on-independence-catalunia-kurdistan-north-korea-and-latin-america/ said:
October 13, 2017
On “Independence”: Catalunia, Kurdistan, North Korea and Latin America

by Andre Vltchek

Interview with ANDRE VLTCHEK by ALESSANDRO BIANCCHI, Chief Editor of the Italian political magazine Anti-Diplomatico

1) AB: Self-determination of peoples and respect for the borders and sovereignty of a country. This is of the most complicated issue for international law. How can it be articulated for the case of Catalonia?

AV: Personally, I’m not very enthusiastic about smaller nations forming their own states, particularly those in the West, where they would, after gaining ‘independence’, remain in the alliances that are oppressing and plundering the entire world: like NATO or the European Union.

Clearly, the breaking of the great country of Yugoslavia into small pieces was a hostile, evil design by the West, and particularly of Germany and Austria. The dissolution of Czechoslovakia after the so-called “Velvet Revolution” was a total idiocy.

But Catalonia (or Basque Country), if it became independent, would become one of the richest parts of Europe. I don’t think it would have any great positive or negative impact on the rest of the world. As an internationalist, I don’t really care if they are separate from Spain or not, or whether they are even richer than they already are, as I care much more about what is happening in places such as Afghanistan, Venezuela or North Korea.

On the other hand, the way Spain has now behaved in Catalonia, after the referendum, is a total disgrace. They decided to treat the Catalan people in the same way as Indonesians have been treating Papuans for decades. If this continues, it will all reach the point of no return: reconciliation will become impossible. You cannot start sexually harassing women and then break their fingers, one by one, just because they want to have their own state. You cannot injure hundreds of innocent people, who simply don’t want to be governed from Madrid. That’s absurd and thoroughly sick! Of course Spain used to commit holocausts all over what is now called Latin America, so it is ‘in their blood’. But I don’t think Catalans will allow this to be done to them.

What about the constitution of Spain? Look, there should be nothing sacred about constitutions. In the West, they were written to protect the interests of the ruling classes. When they get outdated, they should be moderated, or totally rewritten. If Catalans or Basques want their independence, if they really want it, if it is so important for them, then why not – they should have it. Spain is not a ‘people’s country’. It is an oppressive Western bully. I would have a totally different position if some part of Bolivia or China were to try to secede.
[...]
Andre Vltchek brings up some isues with regard to the history of Spain and its actions, which might help to explain why there is a problem. Time will show how it gets resolved.
 

Attachments

Chacaflus

The Force is Strong With This One
whitecoast said:
The Catalan Referendum is a classic bait-and-switch operation by Barcelona
The economic elite in Barcelona merely plan to swap Madrid for Brussels as their preferred patron, and are relying on demagogic distractions such as the referendum in order to mislead the Catalan public into thinking that they’re voting for “independence”
_http://theduran.com/the-catalan-referendum-is-a-classic-bait-and-switch-operation-by-barcelona/
I think this is not a swaping operation between Madrid and Brussels but between the actual polítical system and the NWO/economical power.
In the Spanish Newspaper El Mundo you can read the following article: _http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/15/59e1176f468aeb474d8b4591.html
It says that the solution of this conflict comes from the banks and big companies which will not accept any command from Barcelona. Even more, these companies will solve something the politicians cannot.

The money created this social problem and, now they are the only one who can solve it quietly.
 

l apprenti de forgeron

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
caballero reyes said:
After reading Laura's stories in "The wave" about the Pyrenees / Alchemy / Rennes le chateau, Cathars, Catalans etc., I took other stories about those regions and I am clear why the Catalans are very proud of their history, a history of a region that is prior to the unified states of what we now call Spain.
So? In SH is also named Hendaya / Hendaia and talks about the meeting of Canseliet with Fulcanelli in Seville...This is a policy issue, and Spain is one of the oldest nations in the world -a nation with 500 years of territorial and cultural unity-: if it is destroyed by "voluntarism", "decide everything by elections", "postmodern democracy", robbing the territory and resources that belong to the majority by just the will of a minority sponsored by international elites, that will be the shot to fragment nations in mini-states everywhere. Mainly throughout Hispano-America.

Gaby said:
"War of the elites" as Pepe Escobar explains sums it up for a lot of people. Alexander Mercouris portrays the general sentiment of deeply conservative Spain. And the Catalonian elite have had no problems in mobilizing police violence against "their people" in the past when it was convenient for them.
The struggle of factions of oligarchs is everything that happens in Spain. The nation is trampled by political parties, and some follow centralists and others to separatists. The separatstas are not another nation, but the leaders that want a state only for them make nationalist propaganda...The whole Spanish people are all slaves of the partitocracy, and already is the worse of all Europe, surpassing the Greek, Italian and Portuguese.


Gaby said:
From what I see, a sentiment shared by countless of others, the damage has already been done. It doesn't matter that the Madrid elite might have more in common with the Catalonian elite than each population with their respective elites (although one might be smarter than the other). The last few weeks were highly hysterical. People are against people, brothers against brothers. The drama has since then calmed down, but it can always go up in this volatile situation.

I don't know what is going to happen. Either or, folk will pay the consequences.

Just some current thoughts on the situation.
Yes, it is a dangerous situation. There can be a great violence that leads to a war in Catalonia, between Catalans: Spanish Catalans vs Catalan separatists, what more or less are the halves that comprise the region ... The advice I would give to analysts who do not know the idiosyncrasy and the Spanish political system is: do not take the Spanish politicians (including the separatists) seriously, they are all corrupt to the core and do not care about the people at all. The important thing is that the Spanish people realize that they are oligarchic factions struggling and agreeing among themselves, and that push the people to confront violently. And it is a unhealthy breeding ground, since the political culture in Spain is low, the unwary people easily identify themselves with propaganda of the state factions, and are predisposed to follow the directions that come from the leaders. And, besides that, politics -or the struggle for power- is always passionate, that is, reason weighs less than the already programmed sentimental and identity issues. There is danger to the people in Catalonia because of irresponsible politicians in their blind search for more power.
 
Alternative political parties in Spain are sponsored and/or courtesy of Soros money.

has anyone got any proof of this ,
other than a 1 off payment of 25'000 euros to a think tank.
 

Gawan

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
mglsmn said:
whitecoast said:
The Catalan Referendum is a classic bait-and-switch operation by Barcelona
The economic elite in Barcelona merely plan to swap Madrid for Brussels as their preferred patron, and are relying on demagogic distractions such as the referendum in order to mislead the Catalan public into thinking that they’re voting for “independence”
_http://theduran.com/the-catalan-referendum-is-a-classic-bait-and-switch-operation-by-barcelona/
I think this is not a swaping operation between Madrid and Brussels but between the actual polítical system and the NWO/economical power.
In the Spanish Newspaper El Mundo you can read the following article: _http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/15/59e1176f468aeb474d8b4591.html
It says that the solution of this conflict comes from the banks and big companies which will not accept any command from Barcelona. Even more, these companies will solve something the politicians cannot.

The money created this social problem and, now they are the only one who can solve it quietly.
Hi mglsmn, it is not exactly your first post, but it would be great if you could write a small intro in the newbies section, as it was suggest before :). Nothing too personal need to be shared, just how you found this forum and if you know Lauras books etc.
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
SocietyoftheSpectacle said:
has anyone got any proof of this ,
other than a 1 off payment of 25'000 euros to a think tank.
To my knowledge, the tangled web is only available in Spanish:

La conexión de Podemos y eldiario.es con Soros está en AECID
https://es.sott.net/article/47988-La-conexion-de-Podemos-y-eldiario-es-con-Soros-esta-en-AECID

The connection of Podemos and eldiario.es with Soros is in AECID
Exigen la suspensión de la actividad de la Fundación de Soros en España por seguridad nacional
https://es.sott.net/article/48650-Exigen-la-suspension-de-la-actividad-de-la-Fundacion-de-Soros-en-Espana-por-seguridad-nacional

Suspension of the activity from the Soros Foundation in Spain is demanded for national security reasons
There is info on the one payment to the above-mentioned think tank in English though:

_http://www.voltairenet.org/article198106.html

In 2014, George Soros’s Foundation, Open Society Initiative for Europe, funded organizations fighting for the independence of Catalonia. This is what La Vangardia revealed last year (2016).

According to internal documents the Soros Foundation provided:
- 27,049 dollars to the Consell de Diplomàcia Pública de Catalunya (Catalonia’s Council for Public Diplomacy in Catalonia), an organization that Catalonia’s Generalitat [Translator’s note: this is the institutional framework for Catalonia’s independence] established with different private partners; and - 24 973 dollars to the Centre d’Informació i Documentació Internacionals a Barcelona (the Barcelona Centre for International Information and Documentation, which we will call “BCIID”). BCIID is an independent think tank.

The BCIID is playing the role of the Premier Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs for the “Generalitat of Catalonia”. It is defending every issue from the same perspective as Hillary Clinton.

“George Soros financió a la agencia de la paradiplomacia catalana”, Quico Sallés, La Vanguardia, 16 de agosto de 2016.
_http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20160816/403969314802/george-soros-diplocat-financio.html
 
Thanks,
I ought to point out that Podemos,
are in my opinion heavily infiltrated controlled alternative.

One example is Ada Colau the mayor of barcelona, who spoke out against the referendum at first,
but reset her sails as popularity for it increased.

Interesting to Note ADA has often sought closer Links to the EU, and some of the more
progressive aspects of it.
Ada Colau agrees with Lesbos and technical assistance to the Lampedusa refugee crisis
_https://www.insidetheworld.org/2016/03/16/ada-colau-agrees-with-lesbos-and-technical-assistance-to-the-lampedusa-refugee-crisis/

Remember ADA won on an anti Eviction platform. the PAH,
which is against the huge rise in Evictions.
Not enough housing , and landlords raising the rents,
But ADA wants a few 10's of thousands of refugees Extra.

Also podemos had a Visitor a while back at their annual meeting,
and in general have NOT been supportive of independence,

 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
According to El Mundo there is after translation:
_http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/16/59e454db22601d2c7b8b45e1.html said:
The letter of Puigdemont to Rajoy, live | Saenz de Santamaria: "The Government regrets that it has decided not to answer to the requirement"

The president of the Catalan government, Carles Puigdemont, is still not clarified whether declared or not independence as requested by the Government of Mariano Rajoy. In its response to the request of the central Executive, Puigdemont prefer to keep the ambiguity and calls for dialogue to Rajoy.
[...]
On the above page they keep an updated timeline of what is happening today.
It seems that the situation i sin limbo, but probably the ambiguity reflects the problems for the Catalan administration. One issue is that the central government may activate a paragraph 155 of the constitution. This has never happened before, but if it happens the central administration could take over much more of the administration of Catalonia. For more on the article 155, see:
_http://www.dw.com/en/spains-article-155-the-constitutions-nuclear-option/a-40861578 said:
Spain's Article 155: the constitution's 'nuclear option'
Article 155 of the Spanish constitution would allow the government in Madrid to intervene in the running of Catalonia. But it is an extreme measure for exceptional situations which has never been invoked before. [...]
Maybe it is symbolic that there are many fires in Spain and Portugal, however it also appears rain clouds are moving in.
 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Another observation - whether landing or taking off - crash:
_https://www.rt.com/news/406948-f18-spain-crash-madrid/ said:
Spanish F18 fighter jet crashes after takeoff in Madrid, pilot killed (VIDEOS, PHOTO) [...] The incident took place just five days after another military plane crash claimed the life of pilot Borja Aybar, whose aircraft suffered a malfunction while he conducted landing maneuvers.
I checked El Mundo, and the top front page is full with news relating to the situation with Catalonia, but below is the tragic case of the crash. Might somebody be inspired to think twice before escalating?... However, Spain still has 70 F18's and 50 Eurofighters left according to _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Air_Force
 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Tuesday morning, I saw, but passed over, an article in El Mundo Omnium copy a video of propaganda Ukrainian to deceive the european citizens _http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/17/59e5c92eca4741ae3d8b466c.html
Now the issue has come to the attention of RT and with context: Are Catalonian nationalists copying Maidan's ‘propaganda’ handbook? (VIDEOS) _https://www.rt.com/news/407015-catalan-democracy-video-maidan-ukraine/
On the portal of Omnium they say about themselves:
__ https://www.omnium.cat/english one reads said:
Òmnium Cultural has worked for over fifty years as a civil society agency to promote the Catalan language and culture and also to disseminate Catalonia’s will for freedom. In recent years one of Òmnium’s aims has been to assist Catalonia in its quest to become a new independent state
Here is the video:

https://youtu.be/wouNL14tAks
The Ukrainian/US State Department production is for comparison: _https://youtu.be/Hvds2AIiWLA
And:
_http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/17/59e6445846163f5d4f8b4583.html said:
[...]The imprisonment of Jordi Sànchez (Assemblea Nacional Catalana) and Jordi Cuixart (Omnium) has shaken the pro-independence after several days of impasse and has picked up of the street demonstrations in Catalonia, one of the main measures of the pressure that has been exercised by the entities in recent years to influence the roadmap sovereignty. Thousands of people -200.000 according to the Guardia Urbana- gathered in the center of Barcelona to make an appeal to Europe by appealing to the "freedom" of the two Jordis. The appointment was attended by the main leaders of the block pro-sovereignty headed by the president of the Parliament, Carme Forcadell, and economic vice president of the Catalan government, Oriol Junqueras. [...]
It is possible that the Catalonia issue has not from the beginning been planned the same way as the Maidan, but it is for me an open question how the administration in Madrid and people/administration in Barcelona will manage to defuse the situation they have created - if they wish to.
 
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