Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

It's not always clear-cut where Soros - and his political machinery - falls on political issues. His money is everywhere, certainly, but it also appears to work at cross-purposes with itself. In the end, whatever makes him richer is good.

This is the guy who makes a killing on financial speculation, then has his organizations lobby govts to clamp down on financial speculation because - as he full well knows - it harms societies!

This is also the guy who knocked the British pound out of the ERM (exchange-rate mechanism), arguably removing the UK from what a few years later became the Eurozone, and thus beginning (or at last entrenching) the UK's split from the EU. This is totally at cross-purposes with his major financial and political backing of the EU in general, and his being anti-Brexit in particular.

Officially, his OSF takes no fixed position on Catalan independence:


Following recent events in Spain, the Open Society Foundations and George Soros would like to make clear that we have not played any role, financial or otherwise, in supporting the Catalonian independence movement or the referendum. We do not take a position on the independence of Catalonia.

The Open Society Foundations work to uphold human rights, civil liberties, and democratic principles across Europe and beyond. Since 2013, the Open Society Initiative for Europe has operated from a regional office in Barcelona, making grants to organizations in the European Union and the Western Balkans. In Spain, we have supported local initiatives aimed at preventing ethnic profiling during police stop-and-searches, fighting xenophobic stereotyping, guaranteeing the right to protest, monitoring the abuse of migrants, protecting whistleblowers, and facilitating access to lifesaving medication.
 
From the above, I think it's fair to say that there are external forces at work in the Catalunyan independentist movement. Now, do they play a major role?

I doubt it. People are ALWAYS susceptible to information based on their innate natures, and there is ALWAYS information and propaganda during elections, it is perhaps THE major part of any election. Regardless of how much money he puts into anything, Soros cannot create something that is not there in seed form (at the very least) among the population to begin with. So ultimately, people are to blame for allowing themselves to be 'encouraged' by propaganda rather than thinking for themselves. But very few humans EVER think for themselves in a real way.
 
So we can get the "external forces" out of this equation and we have the same picture: the Catalan conflict has been manufactured to serve a certain purpose. It is already an open secret among serious Spanish analysts that Spain is heading towards federalism. The greater the chaos and division, the better the horizon for taking this step towards federalism, because people are very fed up and want a solution NOW. The plan is really Machiavellian because the Spanish oligarchy is not going to have to impose federalism on the people, but they are going to cry out for it. Catalans included, of course.

Again, too much conspiracy thinking here IMO. If Spain become federalized, it will because people want it, not because anyone 'forced' it on them. Personally, I seriously doubt that Spain will become federalized because, as far as I can tell, the large majority of people do NOT want it.
 
The more I see this, the more I think it is a very complex issue, and as such, it's hard to determine it in black and white terms-that is, the pro-independence movement is completely manipulated or it is completely genuine. I guess the way to look at it is as a mosaic of many different factor contributing to a massive unrest.

I met some young and old Catalans throughout my life. What I see from those interactions is that the independence sentiment wasn't really that strong. I remember a strong national sentiment and pride over Catalonia and their language. Some of them didn't even speak Spanish very well, their language was Catalan. But, when it came to independence matters, they tended more towards remaining together while keeping their cultural identity and language. Only in one occasion I met a person who told me: "This is not Spain, this is Catalonia" and when I told some other Catalans about this, they said: "that's nonsense, this is Catalonia, true, but it's also Spain". Interestingly, I noticed more of this 'unity' sentiment amongst young people back then.

So, IMO, there are some Catalans who do want independence and the reasons might be very different for them. Some may want to become independent because of national pride and because they think they will be better off on their own. Some others may want to cut ties with an oppressive State that, according to them, has a history of cruelty against other nations, peoples. And some others might not really care that much but are moved by peer influence and the media. In the midst of all of these genuine sentiments, there are puppet masters who are funneling resources here and there for their own selfish reasons as well. This resources go to 'influencers', or local leaders who have many followers. Soros, or whoever, doesn't even have to be very involved in the matter. The funding just needs to get to the right people who have enough influence and these people can move lots of other well-intentioned people in a particular direction. Maybe that would only account for the 2% as stated before, maybe a bit more, who knows, but it sure can have some influence. We can look at the Arab Spring movements and other color revolutions that did have a lot of influence in the past for reference.

Anyway, as far as I can see from the outside, the movement seems to be in part genuine and in part manipulated, and manipulation might be more successful precisely because there is a genuine base for it to touch in at least some part of the population. If we add all of this to what others commented about the 'cosmic unrest' and just a basic general unrest in the world, we have circumstances in which people are just reacting and not really considering the consequences of their reactions or without really knowing exactly what their asking for... and for what I've seen so far, this is the case in many protests unfortunately.

Yet, however manipulated the protests are and how we feel about the pro-independence sentiment, violence against the protesters is bad, and so is the violence from the protesters themselves. And yes, it should be reported as well as part of all this issue. But I think it is important to keep in mind that there seem to be some interests trying to move things in the directions they want, even if just as one more factor and whether or not they are successful in their scheme.
 
With all due respect, I don't believe that there is a great plan to split Catalonia from Spain, I don't think any power group has ever had that goal. What I believe is that there is a great plan to federalize Spain and the Catalan conflict is one of the tools to lead people to accept this federalism. [...]

So we can get the "external forces" out of this equation and we have the same picture: the Catalan conflict has been manufactured to serve a certain purpose. It is already an open secret among serious Spanish analysts that Spain is heading towards federalism. The greater the chaos and division, the better the horizon for taking this step towards federalism, because people are very fed up and want a solution NOW. The plan is really Machiavellian because the Spanish oligarchy is not going to have to impose federalism on the people, but they are going to cry out for it. Catalans included, of course.

So you do think there is a plan. Why would the PTB consider Spanish federalization rather than constitutional monarchy a 'necessary change'?

Think for a minute about what you're saying: Madrid gave the referendum organizers harsh jail sentences specifically to provoke the reaction we saw, in order to... federalize Spain? You give way too much power to elites! They react to unfolding events, like everyone else, in the only way they know how.

For those who don't know, on November 10 we have presidential elections in Spain... Is anyone including this point when analysing the current crisis in Catalonia?

It will probably produce 'more of the same', which, as with all western European election results in the last few years, means another shaky, sclerotic, coalition/minority, short-term govt, hamstrung by being locked into the Western order of NATO/the EU and 'the established way of doing things'. This speaks to the social division everywhere, and probably contributes to Catalans' dreams of 'breaking free' from that 'messy' state of affairs.

I totally agree, which is why we cannot predict what will happen in Spain in the coming months, but that does not mean that we cannot analyse the plans of the Spanish oligarchies and clearly see that the conflict in Catalonia is totally instrumentalised. IMHO

"Totally instrumentalised" is another way of saying all these secessionist Catalans have been manipulated towards wanting independence.

I know it's frustrating to see people out on the streets for an unworthy cause, one which worsens the overall climate in your country, but dismissing them as Soros puppets - or worse, evil subversives - only divides you further from them and understanding why they are upset.

The danger of taking this position is that you'll find yourself enjoying videos of Guardia Civil and/or neo-Nazis beating defenceless people. Once you go there, well, you are not many steps away from becoming that Auschwitz prison guard, as Peterson warned about.
 
Personally I don't see these group of young people putting fire, destroying things, beating people as "defenseless people". But I don't agree when police beat normal people that want to manifest without violence.

It is, for me, I very complicated situation and I don't understand all of this, I just feel that the moment of these manifestations have something to do with the next elections. Maybe to put Sanchez in a corner? I don't know.

One thing is almost clear: these late manifestations where made with young people that it seems to me were manipulated. This violence maybe is good for the Catalan Elite who wants independence. But these groups of violent people do not represent Catalans in general, I think so. As I said, I don't know exactly what is happening. And I agree that maybe what I say is non sense.

Thanks for these analyses that make us think.
 
How to reconcile the hypothesis of a purely grassroots/spontaneous uprising with the Soros Foundation directly funding the independence movement already five years ago?
The Catalan independence movement has been around for almost 100 years.

Yes, even 150 years tracing back to the The Renaixença (cultural renaissance). The pre-existence of a separatist sentiment doesn't preclude the intervention external forces. On the contrary, it can be the very foundation on which external forces build their revolutionary projects.

For example, the anti-monarchy/ anti-clerical sentiment was present in France since the enlightenment. Almost a century later, the French revolution struck. The pre-existing sentiment does not make the French revolution a purely grass-root movement. It's now clear that some external forces used the potential revolutionary sentiment.

In other terms, there is a separatist sentiment shared by many Catalans but there are also external forces at work.
 
In other terms, there is a separatist sentiment shared by many Catalans but there are also external forces at work.

Well, there are always external forces at work. People are propagandized all the time by the media. How often does the media, which is the primary way in which people's opinions are formed, provide objective, rational, balanced information? Pretty much never.
 
How often does the media, which is the primary way in which people's opinions are formed, provide objective, rational, balanced information? Pretty much never.
Yes the media are biased pretty much all the time. The question then is "what way are they biased?". The difference in media coverage between the Yellow Vest movement and the Independence movement is telling. As I wrote in a previous post:

the most striking difference is probably the media treatment (including to most extent RT) where the Yellow Vests were described as violent, illegitimate, minor, disruptive, manipulated, infiltrated while the Independence movement is described as peaceful, major, legitimate, independent.
 
There is the Spanish saying, "of these powders these sludges", which refers to the cause and effect. Let's see if some internal causes of the movement could be glimpsed.

It may be true that the idea of independence is attractive to them because it seems a pleasant and orderly 'solution' for their sense of disempowerment challenged by things beyond their control (globalization, terrorism and increasing totalitarian controls). But here they may be losing focus, consciously and / or unconsciously of what has happened in Catalonia since Jordi Pujol, too. Corruption in the highest spheres of Catalan independence policy, widespread and with magnitude, does not acquire relevance for the Catalans. How much of this independence proclamation does not come to cover all that? I wonder if they are made to look towards unfair Spain , which has been unfair for many years, but not exactly about them, in my opinion.

El dispar bolsillo de los españoles según la región en la que viven

Anexo:Provincias de España por producto interno bruto per cápita - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

On the order hand, what would federalism do with these territorial differences? I have more questions than answers.

I think that Catalan people, at least the independence sector, do not consider that they may be being instrumentalized by their own politicians, who have fostered an independentist sentiment, with historical fallacies mainly, when at the same time they filled their pockets with money.
Politicians who are now in the background, relieved by others, new faces, which at the end of the day protect them and we don't know how far and why from those loyalties. Politicians in the background and possibly moving the threads in the shadow of political pulse in Catalonia.
Was the recent encouragement to the independence sentiment a maneuver of Catalan political class to keep the people distracted while they engaged in all kinds of economic crimes? And if so, what should they do when all that things begins to be public? Create a little more circus maybe. Cases of corruption that are still coming to light. People may be directing their frustration out to not see how their beloved politicians have been deceiving them, not to see what smells bad inside.

In addition, while justice and police forces are busy in the process and all its network (CDR, democratic Tsunami, anti-systems ...) less attention is paid to other things.


Caso Pujol

Panorama de la corrupción en Catalunya (1990-2017)

El 'procés' nació para tapar la corrupción del 'caso 3%', según una nota de los Mossos

La independencia corrupta
 
Again, too much conspiracy thinking here IMO. If Spain become federalized, it will because people want it, not because anyone 'forced' it on them. Personally, I seriously doubt that Spain will become federalized because, as far as I can tell, the large majority of people do NOT want it.

This is interesting as it goes into the question I had a few posts ago, the large majority of people don’t seem to want a federalization of Spain. But the one group that would take it, or a form of it, would be the Catalonians seeking independence. And the question remains, given the circumstances and the fervor, and the Madrid response and all the internal and external influences, truly influential or not.

Who’s decision should it be? The 2 million people who voted for it? Or the entire nation?
Some catalonians have expressed their desire to leave, whatever that means specifically, but.. given that they’re part of Spain, shouldn’t Spain be involved in the conversation?

I think that’s where it lies, Catalonia saying “I want to leave, because I am Catalonia (culture, language, genetics and what have you)” and Spain saying “well yes, but you’re also Spain so I have a say, and I say no”.. and chaos and protest and violence from both ends.

I think it would be terrible if Catalonia left, but that’s not the conversation we’re having, because that’s not a reason to stop them from leaving. It’s just what I think would happen if they left and why it’s a bad idea.

It’s like if Mexico City, or Paris or Buenos Aires or NYC, or Moscow decided it wanted to become its own entity tomorrow. Their governments would probably say...”uh no” and they’d denounce oppression and hold a referendum that defies (objectively) what the central government said, and denounce further oppression and now violence and riots would ensue and close down the airports and suddenly the conversation shifts to was the violent response of the government appropriate or even righteous.

so the conversation is now really far removed from where it should’ve started. I’m sure there’s outsiders trying to steer the situation in one direction or the other, invested in varying capacities, are they 100% to blame? I don’t think so. That removes the responsibility from the individual and denies the fervor that exists.

That is to say that imho not everyone defending independence is doing it for altruistic reasons and not everyone defending unity is doing it for selfish ones, and viceversa.

So perhaps, in the end it’s going to behave like brexit where they’ll dance and dance until some form of compromise is reached or who knows. But I get the sense that we’re just going to have to wait and see.
Hope the above made sense.
 
Second, even though the Iberian peninsula is fairly homogeneous, I can't help but notice a "genetic difference" sense of feeling that's at play and/or played. I've stumbled upon maps while searching something entirely different (i.e. some references about medieval Europe in the book "In Search of Zarathustra") and noticed a "border" crossed over not necessarily Barcelona, but the upper region in Girona and along the Pyrenees. This is where the heresies reached, i.e. Cathars, Bogomils, etc. I work in this region and sometimes I think and joke to myself that the pro-independence movement is genetically inherited. It was with their grandpas, parents and it will be with their descendants. I see people in this region more similar to people up the Spanish border than to any other culture that I've ever met in Spain. I've learned to appreciate both Spain's and Catalonian's positive traits and it's heart-breaking to see the divide. Images such as the Catalonian flag along the Spanish flag in historical scenes such as the glimpse of one which I caught when I saw at a Queen Live concert in the 80s will remain like a fond memory.
It is true that there is a lot of difference between Girona and Lleida compared to Tarragona and Barcelona. Of the first two come the majority of the most staunch separatists, in the other two provinces the majority are more unionists -that is why the formation of that ironic platform called Tabarnia-. I don't think there are racial differences between the Iberians, but the differences in this case are geographical. Also among the Basques (and Galicians to a lesser extent) the more fanatics of the regional nationalist causes come from isolated mountain villages. But, even if it were true the racial case, it is a supremacist business that despises the poor who come from other Spanish regions as "charnegos." The same ideological system of ETA: disguised as the left, they are completely sectarian of the right and want benefits for themselves by destroying all kinds of cooperation between regions, destroying national workers unions, etc. If they really were of left wing and had studied the authors they claim to know, they would know that Marx said there is no right to self-determination in any nation in Western Europe. That is an obvious contradiction, and there are many others. But it seems that in the fight for power, anything goes.

Again, too much conspiracy thinking here IMO. If Spain become federalized, it will because people want it, not because anyone 'forced' it on them. Personally, I seriously doubt that Spain will become federalized because, as far as I can tell, the large majority of people do NOT want it.
I believe that the idea of European federalism, or the Europe of the regions (which has its similarities to a Nazi project), is something that is desired by the elites, but whose realization is not easy. The Catalan theme will continue to be insisted, not for any love of Catalonia and hatred of the Spaniards, but because Spain in these times is a nation with the most weakened state and can be the initial kick of a new great continental state with Brussels as the capital of many small regions without any power.
In any case, the signal for such changes will come with the modification of the Spanish constitution, the only legal way for Catalonia to become another new state. And to achieve this, elites can generate fear of a new civil war. This is nothing new, when the people accepted the 1978 constitution -agreed between francoists and the left, and written up in SECRET-, Santiago Carrillo (of the PCE) spoke of "noise of sabers," that if the new consensus of political oligarchs was not accepted, there could be another coup d'etat. It was all a lie. It is very easy to deceive the people, and more to the Spanish people, who lives with the open wounds of the civil war. The case of separatisms and unionists is nothing more than the continuation of the civil war of 80 years ago through other masks.
Changing the constitution and legalizing a referendum is, beyond the result, the death of Spain as a nation-state, because the nation will no longer be considered as what it is, a historical fact, created by wars, geography, marriages to unite kingdoms and crowns, etc., And will become a subjective project: voting for nationality as a project, as something voluntary, is a triumph for psychopaths and their vision of the world, "create the reality." A new triumph of psychopaths in international law. They already do this at other levels, modifying through the positive law issues of gender, minority rights, etc. But getting the nation-states themselves to be something "decidable" will be a big step for them. If they succeed in Spain, they will continue for the rest of Europe and the world. That is why if in a future, if the process to modify the Spanish constitution is opened, the Spaniards must show that they are alive and fight against their entire state political class. And they should have help from other peoples in that fight.

Yes the media are biased pretty much all the time. The question then is "what way are they biased?". The difference in media coverage between the Yellow Vest movement and the Independence movement is telling. As I wrote in a previous post:
Yes, The Yellow Vests movement is a French national movement and the separatists movement is a fragmentary movement of a region. This could be seen well in the "strike" of Barcelona the other day: the majority were students, anti-fascists and anarchists. Almost nothing of workers - who continued with their normal workday-. The only working class there were the police, having to prevent the excesses of the postmodern revolutionaries.
To the antifa you can apply a quote said by Lacan in 1968 - in several ways, the young people of May '68 are the grandparents of the current "rebels"-. Lacan said: "What you aspire to as revolutionaries is a new master. You will get one."
 
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From Madrid's perspective, if Catalan 'leaves', then contagion would likely spread to other regions (Basques, Galicians etc.) and there would be a real risk of Spain becoming 'balkanized' and no longer existing. You can understand why the powers in Madrid do not want to see that happen, and even a good majority of Spaniards who identify as and like being Spanish. The EU is also very wary of any independence movements inside the EU, for the same 'contagion' reasons.
Beyond the struggles of the state oligarch factions, in Catalonia what is seen is not Catalans against Madrid, but Catalans against Catalans: a latent violence between neighbors. It is a real sadness to see society so divided and families that distance themselves for political issues.

The other thing to consider here, from a broader perspective, is the number of protests occurring in recent weeks around the world. Hong Kong, Iraq, Lebanon, Ecuador, Chile, France (yellow vests and more recently fire service members) 'extinction rebellion' (everywhere). So there seems to be something 'in the air' these days that is motivated, at least in part, by something that is not limited to any specific grievance, but rather specific grievances are being used to give vent to some other kind of collective 'angst'.
Very interesting. And planetary changes and more social chaos can push many groups around the world to try to create new states, mostly for economic reasons. Perhaps in a future the very idea of the modern state end up being obsolete:
Birth of the Republic of Western Canada is a Cry of Our Heart – Wexit Alberta Founder
 
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