Child Psychopaths

[truth seeker]

I just finished going through it and think it's great! Thanks so much for posting that. While I have no children of my own and don't intend on having any, I have been a caregiver in the past and really appreciate the information. Much of it solidifies what I previously thought regarding childcare. In addition, it was a lovely reminder to me of what my parents did right. Even with their own narcissistic wounding, they were still able to give in positive ways that I see and feel the effects of even today. That was priceless.

Yeah, I could go on and on about how the medical system takes advantage of people who aren't feeling their best to push unnecessary medical treatments on them. The last thing someone needs when they are sick or scared is the added stress of now having to fight for your right to be heard.

 

[manitoban]

I posted something about education for discussion for the FOTCM here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=14662.msg126863#msg126863.
Let me know if this is not the right place to do so (I thought that it would be of interest to non FOTCM members as well)

Good stuff, Mrs.T, thanks for posting that.

Yeah, I could go on and on about how the medical system takes advantage of people who aren't feeling their best to push unnecessary medical treatments on them. The last thing someone needs when they are sick or scared is the added stress of now having to fight for your right to be heard.

Yeah we could go on and on about what they do - it's so infuriating. And all the lies they tell just become considered "fact'. Just the other day, one of the mom's at the school was talking about circumcising her sons and said, "Well they definitely don't feel it or remember anything." This is a woman who is a very conscientious mother, yet she genuinely thinks this. I nearly fell off the sidewalk when she said that.

 

[Hildegarda]

I posted something about education for discussion for the FOTCM here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=14662.msg126863#msg126863.
Let me know if this is not the right place to do so (I thought that it would be of interest to non FOTCM members as well).

That's such a nice compilation, Mrs. Tigersoap. I used to do AP and be in a local AP group too, when my kids were younger. You are right in saying a lot of it is common sense, but so many parenting books, "professional advice" and prevailing lifestyle have skewed our inner feel of these things.

If I remember correctly, it was Eric Erikson who said in his book "Childhood and Society" that in each culture the children are raised to conform to that particular society's demands and values. And I think the reason why our mainstream culture encourages early separation from the parent and early institutionalization, is that women's natural life cycles do not match the modern industrialized and corporate work environment.

"They" make it so that it is practically impossible for a woman to both have a career or some kind of professional development, and dedicate enough time and energy to being with her children. In many fields, every time you drop out of workforce, you have to start over from scratch and go back to competing with energetic younger people who are willing to do the same job for less because they do not have a family to feed yet.

In addition to promoting healthy parenting, in a new world something probably should be done to fix this situation...

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Regarding leaving 5 y.o alone, I also would have to say if you do leave them alone, expect the unexpected when you return! So best not to...

I can example myself at 4-5 years old. I remember my mom would sometimes leave me alone to cook or clean, and I remember once or twice (even though I was told not do do so) I went to play with my mom's makeup in her room. Especially nail polish, nail polish remover & perfume. I remember that I used to watch my mom remove her nail polish with nail polish remover and I would think WOAH IT'S LIKE MAGIC!!! So I went in there putting different colors of nail polish on, and wiping them off with nail polish remover. And one time I spilled nail polish remover all over my mom's nice dresser and began to cry. She immediately came in there asking if I was ok, and once she found out i had spilled the nail polish she just removed me from the area and calmly told me this was the reason she asked me not to go play with that stuff alone. But being a stubborn kid that I was, I didn't learn my lesson, because I went back again when she wasn't looking another day. But she HAD learned her lesson & removed all the nail polish, nail polish remover & perfume and put them in the dresser's drawer with a lock. And that was that-- playtime was over! :P Until I'd go ask for her to play make over with me that is...

 

[Breton]

something about day care usage Re: Child Psychopaths

Also, pediatricians here strongly advise not to get attached too much to your baby Scared, since you will be putting him in day care in just a few months... They also tell you that baby has to follow your life, not the other way around, that you can feel free to ignore your child's cries (small babies are evil, manipulative creatures apparently) by putting a pacifier in their mouth all day long (How many poor little children have I seen with a pacifier in their mouth and a vacant, dissociating look in their eyes!!), that should you be too tired with this baby business, do not hesitate to take a week vacation with your husband, away from the baby. Shocked
But also, a lot of Belgian children are raised rather than brought up. I mean by that that the punishment/reward (not necessarily physical, mind you but that too, of course) is very widely used and is advocated by pediatricians, again.

To the above quote, if it represents what pedatricians teach and are taught, then I just want to say one word: SICK.

<snip>
In my country (Belgium), it is the 'norm' to put children in kindergarten (called crêche) at the ripe old age of ... 4 months!!! That is to say, just when the pregnancy leave is over. There is usually no other solutions to mothers who want/have to continue working after giving birth.
<snip>

Also I may wish to point out how in Finland, there is still a strong idea that parents should be enabled to have a choice to be with their child during the crucial first few years of life. Or at least give them some sort of security about their future job with their employer and not necessarily have to start from scratch. This may not always work out well in practise, but I have seen it work out ok. It is interesting how far apart even two western countries can be - or at least appear to be.

Child care benefits

After parental allowance or extended paternity allowance is no longer paid, parents can take a child care leave with full employment security to look after a child under age 3, though both parents cannot be on full-time leave at the same time.

Employers are not required to compensate employees who are on child care leave. After the leave, employees are entitled to return to their previous job or a comparable position. Credits for paid annual leave do not accrue during child care leave.

The minimum length of child care leave is 1 month. Under law, employees are entitled to one or two leaves, but additional periods are possible with the employer’s consent.

This is not to judge anyone's tough choices (as Hildegarda said in post 28) but I mention this benefit here to kind add a bit more evidence that some people consider it quite important and self-evident that it is worthwhile to not have strangers caring for kids under 3. So self-evident that they actually enact legislation to support it!

However, there may simply be no other choice, (in our less than perfect ponerized society) and we do the best we can, but the more knowledge we have, we can work with the consequences better of what our decisions may have wrought.

I might add a personal observation, that not everyone takes this opportunity in Finland. I think that Western Societies tend to create an atmosphere were materialism, career, affluence gets higher priority over basic fulfilling of children's needs. I felt a relief that the trend did not seem so advanced in Finland as I saw in Canada. However the trend is still in evidence here.

My wife (a Finn) has noticed a new generation of Finns who find it acceptable to take on extremely demanding careers as members of parliament while at the same time giving birth to children. This is more acceptable nowadays here, although, I think some people (my wife being one) raise their eyebrows at such choices. We do have choices as to what our priorities are sometimes: as one CEO said (I don't remember who) as he stepped down from his post: "anyone can do this job, but only I can be a father to my kids". [paraphrased]



On a personal note: I am a dad of 3 kids who are now 10, 7 and 5. I think we were fortunate to be able to have all kids be at home for 3 or 4 years after which they never had very long days at day care.

Here are some of the recent quotes that prompted me to post to this thread:

it also seems that that early enrollment in day care is considered by those around him to be a positive influence. This may be culture-specific, Ive heard similar opinions from people in countries with day-care freely available and encouraged. Again, it seems that for this child early competence was encouraged, that makes him less of a burden on the adults. In actuality though, being separated from the mother at an early age is a stress for a child and a risk for future behavioral problems, especially for children under 1 y. of age (here are some links: \\\http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/16/us/two-studies-link-child-care-to-behavior-problems.html?pagewanted=1 , \\\http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17795821/).

<snip>
Any culture that thinks it is a good idea to put infants in day care is backward or psychopathic.
<snip>

<snip>
And I think the reason why our mainstream culture encourages early separation from the parent and early institutionalization, is that women's natural life cycles do not match the modern industrialized and corporate work environment.

"They" make it so that it is practically impossible for a woman to both have a career or some kind of professional development, and dedicate enough time and energy to being with her children. In many fields, every time you drop out of workforce, you have to start over from scratch and go back to competing with energetic younger people who are willing to do the same job for less because they do not have a family to feed yet.
<snip>

 

[anothermagyar]

It's interesting because in Hungary where my child was born and raised, the government gives free choice since the 60's for mothers to stay at home for 3 years, after a child was born, and pay the 75% of the regular salary of the mother for one year and 50% for the rest of 2 years.
I thought supports like this exists in Western Europe, as far as I know in Germany.
Other countries I'm not familiar with.
Money wise a lot of mother choose to go back to work after one or two years.
My son was very social from early age.
He just loved to be with other babies since he started walking and speaking, about a year old, and when I took him to kindergarten, he loved it.
In Hungary the kindergarten has a "get used to it" period, when for two weeks the mother is present. The first day she can go out from the room for ten minutes, and next day 15-20min., and so on. Each day if the child is ok and "forget" about his mother, the time goes up to hours, up to 8 hours, usually the work time of the mother.
My son got used to it so fast, he find friends very quickly and the caretaker ladies were very loving, good people.


I was very disappointed when I read about the child-care customs in Belgium.
The details are very pathological, like leave the child cry, not to "get attached too much" to your baby.
Sick bag please!

[quote author=Mrs. Tigersoap]But also, a lot of Belgian children are raised rather than brought up. I mean by that that the punishment/reward (not necessarily physical, mind you but that too, of course) is very widely used and is advocated by pediatricians, again. That system makes children blindly obedient to anyone with some sort of authority but who, once in a while, go berserk because of the pressure it entails and because of all the emotions that are basically smothered from birth.[/quote]

Sound like to me, like my grandparents raised my mom, and me too, a good old Prussian type of method.
Children are "trained" not raised, like animals.
I remember my grandma used to tell me:
"You speak when an adult asking you."

 

[Hildegarda]

It's interesting because in Hungary where my child was born and raised, the government gives free choice since the 60's for mothers to stay at home for 3 years, after a child was born, and pay the 75% of the regular salary of the mother for one year and 50% for the rest of 2 years.
I thought supports like this exists in Western Europe, as far as I know in Germany.

You are right, maternity leave is important but it's only a partial solution. Even in Europe, corporations continue to assault maternity leave as it interferes with their profit. In the US, welfare was originally designed to allow poorer mothers to stay home with their children, like middle-class mothers did; everybody seems to have forgotten about it.

But there's something else going on here, too. In Russia, there were always similar rules to the ones you are describing: partial salary paid out for the first 18 months with an option of staying home further; the daycare centers are state-run and numerous. In the US, maternity leave is 3 unpaid months; daycare centers are mostly private and costly, and standards vary. And yet, the daycare enrollment in Russia was always pretty high for infants and practically 100% for children age 2 and up, whereas in the US only 50% or so children are cared for by non-relatives, and the difference between rich and poor is not as pronounced as one would expect. There is a lot more mothers in the US who drop out of work to take care of children, reasoning perhaps that, what's the point paying most of your salary for daycare or nanny and being away from your child. In Russia, the debate between a "working mom" and a "stay-at-home mom" was non-existent -- there really were no stay-at-home moms.

But the end result for women's achievement at work is the same, whether there is maternity leave or not. Whether you are out of work for 2-3 years with guaranteed employment, or for 3-5 years on your own until your kid goes to school or daycare, and then look for new employment, your working peers, male or female, at this time have completed a medical residency or a post-doc training, published a few articles in professional magazines, or worked their way a few notches in a corporation. You, on the other hand, are coming back at the same point as you left, if you are lucky, and have a kid who is still little, gets sick, gets into scrapes, so you have to keep taking time off or pay someone else to totally pick up childcare while you dive into work. If you have another child and skip more time, you might as well start over and go to school again either way, because your experience by now will be totally outdated. I remember when I was working in a lab in Russia, my female bosses were talking about how women drop off the face of science in their 20-s en mass: maternity leave or not, science doesn't wait. I wish I paid attention to it at a time, because US academia was much more intense and this was more obvious. I have recently seen stats showing that in the US, professionally successful women are disproportionately childless, even if they did intend to have children originally. They simply can't find time to pause their lives for childbearing and childrearing.

So even if the state may have a generous maternity leave policy, the culture still encourages women to separate from their children early. There is a sort of a schizophrenic split between the demands and attitudes women get. On one hand, the society conveys the idea that children are the nations's future (through governmental programs that encourage birth rates, or religious incentives along the lines of "be fruitful and multiply"). On the other hand, when a woman actually has a child, it is viewed by those around her as a personal choice the cost of which she, or her family, is alone to bear. Promoting peaceful parenting ideally should go hand n hand with alleviating this pressure as well.

fwiw

 

[anothermagyar]

Yes, that's right.

Meanwhile workplaces not encouraging you to have a child, sometimes they're threatening women to get fired if they go to maternity leave. I heard that from my ex-boss, who is a woman and have four children!!!

 

[Breton]

I just read your post Hildegarda and spot on! It so succinctly outlines the problems faced by mothers to give those earlier years to children!
On another note, in Finland the leave can be taken also by the fathers. Although I did not do this myself, I do know some friends who split that time off between the parents so that both were not impacted as deeply in their careers/jobs. But there are so many variables: many types of people, many types of careers. Taking leave when working as a scientist, or a bus driver is not going to have the same impact!

Bottom line: the society is not setup properly (ponerized) and we struggle.

Anyways, this topic was originally about the difficulty with this particular child and I hope that some of the discussions here will help Twisted with finding the clues and information to clearly see the reality about his particular circumstances.

This is a tough one and my heart just ached for you, Twisted, as I imagined if I was confronted with some very unpleasant possibilities like you are!

I wish I could offer something more to you. Maybe this: Keep your eyes wide open. Don't let your love or bias towards your life-long friend also blind you to seeing the possibility that she is also a contributing factor to the difficulties.

 

[Twisted]

Thank you Breton for your words!
I still follow this topic, and take on board, if you will, anything that I feel is of importance and of use to the current situation. I am also happy for the fact that my starting this topic has inspired and/or influenced people to take a deeper look, and discuss the task of raising children in ways that are healthy, and raising awareness of the ways that are damaging.

For a small update of the situation in our home:
My friend has had a conversation with the prime carer for her son when he is in kindergarten, and been allowed to read what notes they have on him so far. She was deeply saddened by this and what they had to report. She didn't tell me all that they had in this rapport, only that when she read that they had written that he seemed to be very sad, she broke down. As far as I understood, she has had a conversation with her son, as when they came home last evening, they told me that they had made a deal, that from now on they were going to be nicer to each other. It was was clear to me that not only did she act more loving towards him, he was the same with her: wanting to sit on her lap, engaging in "real" conversations with the both of us about what he looked forward to, all the things they were going to do today, what he wants for his birthday as it is fast approaching, and all the lovely things he was going to give to his mother on her birthday. All in all it was a very nice moment, and I hope, a good solid step towards righting the wrongs.

 

[Buddy]

For a small update of the situation in our home:
My friend has had a conversation with the prime carer for her son when he is in kindergarten, and been allowed to read what notes they have on him so far. She was deeply saddened by this and what they had to report. She didn't tell me all that they had in this rapport, only that when she read that they had written that he seemed to be very sad, she broke down. As far as I understood, she has had a conversation with her son, as when they came home last evening, they told me that they had made a deal, that from now on they were going to be nicer to each other. It was was clear to me that not only did she act more loving towards him, he was the same with her: wanting to sit on her lap, engaging in "real" conversations with the both of us about what he looked forward to, all the things they were going to do today, what he wants for his birthday as it is fast approaching, and all the lovely things he was going to give to his mother on her birthday. All in all it was a very nice moment, and I hope, a good solid step towards righting the wrongs.

Twisted, thanks for sharing that. It was deeply moving for me. :)

 

[knowledge_of_self]

For a small update of the situation in our home:
My friend has had a conversation with the prime carer for her son when he is in kindergarten, and been allowed to read what notes they have on him so far. She was deeply saddened by this and what they had to report. She didn't tell me all that they had in this rapport, only that when she read that they had written that he seemed to be very sad, she broke down. As far as I understood, she has had a conversation with her son, as when they came home last evening, they told me that they had made a deal, that from now on they were going to be nicer to each other. It was was clear to me that not only did she act more loving towards him, he was the same with her: wanting to sit on her lap, engaging in "real" conversations with the both of us about what he looked forward to, all the things they were going to do today, what he wants for his birthday as it is fast approaching, and all the lovely things he was going to give to his mother on her birthday. All in all it was a very nice moment, and I hope, a good solid step towards righting the wrongs.

Twisted, thanks for sharing that. It was deeply moving for me. :)

I agree, thank you for sharing. I'm glad that your friend is taking a more active role as mom and that things are starting to smooth out a little. I hope things get better and better. As most people say, "communication is key!" So I'm glad that they are communicating. :)

 

[Laura]

Making changes in a long-standing dynamic is not so easy. Your friend needs to begin educating herself by reading and researching. There are going to be all kinds of tricks and traps in such a broken relationship that will come up. She will have to remember at all times that she is the adult and the child in a child and she is responsible for managing her behavior toward him no matter how he may test and try her. And he surely will.

 

[slowone]

It's interesting because in Hungary where my child was born and raised, the government gives free choice since the 60's for mothers to stay at home for 3 years, after a child was born, and pay the 75% of the regular salary of the mother for one year and 50% for the rest of 2 years.
I thought supports like this exists in Western Europe, as far as I know in Germany.

You are right, maternity leave is important but it's only a partial solution. Even in Europe, corporations continue to assault maternity leave as it interferes with their profit. In the US, welfare was originally designed to allow poorer mothers to stay home with their children, like middle-class mothers did; everybody seems to have forgotten about it.

But there's something else going on here, too. In Russia, there were always similar rules to the ones you are describing: partial salary paid out for the first 18 months with an option of staying home further; the daycare centers are state-run and numerous. In the US, maternity leave is 3 unpaid months; daycare centers are mostly private and costly, and standards vary. And yet, the daycare enrollment in Russia was always pretty high for infants and practically 100% for children age 2 and up, whereas in the US only 50% or so children are cared for by non-relatives, and the difference between rich and poor is not as pronounced as one would expect. There is a lot more mothers in the US who drop out of work to take care of children, reasoning perhaps that, what's the point paying most of your salary for daycare or nanny and being away from your child. In Russia, the debate between a "working mom" and a "stay-at-home mom" was non-existent -- there really were no stay-at-home moms.

But the end result for women's achievement at work is the same, whether there is maternity leave or not. Whether you are out of work for 2-3 years with guaranteed employment, or for 3-5 years on your own until your kid goes to school or daycare, and then look for new employment, your working peers, male or female, at this time have completed a medical residency or a post-doc training, published a few articles in professional magazines, or worked their way a few notches in a corporation. You, on the other hand, are coming back at the same point as you left, if you are lucky, and have a kid who is still little, gets sick, gets into scrapes, so you have to keep taking time off or pay someone else to totally pick up childcare while you dive into work. If you have another child and skip more time, you might as well start over and go to school again either way, because your experience by now will be totally outdated. I remember when I was working in a lab in Russia, my female bosses were talking about how women drop off the face of science in their 20-s en mass: maternity leave or not, science doesn't wait. I wish I paid attention to it at a time, because US academia was much more intense and this was more obvious. I have recently seen stats showing that in the US, professionally successful women are disproportionately childless, even if they did intend to have children originally. They simply can't find time to pause their lives for childbearing and childrearing.

So even if the state may have a generous maternity leave policy, the culture still encourages women to separate from their children early. There is a sort of a schizophrenic split between the demands and attitudes women get. On one hand, the society conveys the idea that children are the nations's future (through governmental programs that encourage birth rates, or religious incentives along the lines of "be fruitful and multiply"). On the other hand, when a woman actually has a child, it is viewed by those around her as a personal choice the cost of which she, or her family, is alone to bear. Promoting peaceful parenting ideally should go hand n hand with alleviating this pressure as well.

fwiw

Hildegarda, I agree entirely. I have noticed recently just how messed up our attitudes and work structure are toward women bringing up children and being able to work. Men and women have children but its as if only women have to make the choice between children or career.

In my family I stayed at home to bring up our three children, this period in my life has spanned 10 years so far and it will be 11 by the time I am even in a position to consider a daytime job. I trained to be a yoga teacher when my sons were young and work evenings at the moment. Even when I can work during the day, I still need to be able to be home at school holidays etc. Added to that I am 42, I already feel too old to reenter the workplace! I'd like my husband and I to downscale our lives enough to not worry too much about money but we have made the commitment to pay for our childrens education so that we could have a choice about how and where they are educated and that costs a fortune! We are caught in a trap.

For a small update of the situation in our home:
My friend has had a conversation with the prime carer for her son when he is in kindergarten, and been allowed to read what notes they have on him so far. She was deeply saddened by this and what they had to report. She didn't tell me all that they had in this rapport, only that when she read that they had written that he seemed to be very sad, she broke down. As far as I understood, she has had a conversation with her son, as when they came home last evening, they told me that they had made a deal, that from now on they were going to be nicer to each other. It was was clear to me that not only did she act more loving towards him, he was the same with her: wanting to sit on her lap, engaging in "real" conversations with the both of us about what he looked forward to, all the things they were going to do today, what he wants for his birthday as it is fast approaching, and all the lovely things he was going to give to his mother on her birthday. All in all it was a very nice moment, and I hope, a good solid step towards righting the wrongs.

Twisted, thanks for sharing that. It was deeply moving for me. :)

I agree, thank you for sharing. I'm glad that your friend is taking a more active role as mom and that things are starting to smooth out a little. I hope things get better and better. As most people say, "communication is key!" So I'm glad that they are communicating. :)

Twisted, I am so glad that things are beginning to move in the situation you have at your home. I know the mistakes I made with my stepdaughter still make me shudder, and I still make some of them! I also know that it's threads like this that keep me on the path to keep working with it. I hope that this is the beginning of things improving for you all.

 

[TRANSSOCIOPATHICA]

What I first noticed about him was the look he gets in his eyes when he is angry and doesn't get his will. The only way to describe the look, is that it is angry, black and empty. You know the expression "If looks could kill" ..

The thing is today with so many medications, vaccines and psychotic media pumped into children almost as soon as they are out of the womb, it is becoming much more difficult to identify psychopathic children from ones who have just had their psychology/soul ravaged by the system.