Civil War in Ukraine: Western Empire vs Russia

[Siberia]

This guy was a real psycho.
They want number of drug addicts to grow with methadone help

True, see: Russia bans methadone in Crimea:

MOSCOW, March 26. /ITAR-TASS/. Russia will ban methadone, a narcotic drug used in the treatment of drug addiction, in Crimea, Russia’s Federal Drug Control Service (FSKN) chief Viktor Ivanov said on Wednesday, March 26.

Methadone has become a criminal business in Ukraine. Ivanov said its efficacy was not clinically proved, but there was hard statistics showing that the number of deaths from its use in the United States and Great Britain had increased considerably as addiction to methadone is much stronger than that to heroin.

“Methadone is not a cure. Practically all methadone supplies in Ukraine were circulating on the secondary market and distributed as a narcotic drug in the absence of proper control. As a result, it spread to the shadow market and traded there at much higher prices. It became a source of criminal incomes,” Ivanov said.

He said that 200 million US dollars were spent in Ukraine for methadone therapy. Russian specialists and their colleagues in other countries, including the US, do not recognise it as a means of efficient treatment.

There are twice as many drug addicts in Crimea as in Russia, Ivanov said. He described the drugs situation on the peninsula as “difficult” and blamed it on unemployment, available resources for making poppy straw, closeness to Turkey, which is a transit country for Afghan heroin, and circulation of methadone in Ukraine.

But then, is anyone surprised that Nemtsov didn't mind promoting a deadly drug among Russian children, if he didn't mind killing his own child?

 

[Lumiere_du_Code]

Sure it's 'pretty much' on the money. Roubles. Have you put your invoice in to Moscow yet?

Look who came! you "gave himself with giblets" (unmasked himself)
Only Ukie trolls care about this "crucial issue" :D

 

[Lumiere_du_Code]

damn, just how easily manipulated by millions of people who do not know anything at all, and immediately pecking at a few "emotional" accusations or hypocritical "revelations" and the whole world is ready to explode in a "holy war".

 

[Laura]

Sure it's 'pretty much' on the money. Roubles. Have you put your invoice in to Moscow yet?

Look who came! you "gave himself with giblets" (unmasked himself)
Only Ukie trolls care about this "crucial issue" :D

But, if they are "Ukie trolls", they are undoubtedly paid by CIA fronts which is what the whole Ukraine govt is: a big front for the CIA.

 

[SeekinTruth]

which is what the whole Ukraine govt is: a big front for the CIA.

This, in addition to the list Be made (ironically), is undeniable, documented reality. The "pro-Ukrainian" side of the story spewed as obsessively by the Anglo-American-Zionist cabal and their media operations as by the junta supporters/collaborators in Kiev, is utter, laughable nonsense - thus there's NEVER been any evidence provided for all their accusations and/or claims.



It seems like the very likely false flag Nemstov murder is NOT going to have any results in making the 5th column opposition in Russia any more credible or palatable to the general Russian public. However, expect even more desperate stabs in the dark all around. The Empire is looking more and more like a caricature, e.g. Dr. Evil in Austin Powers, and their demonizations, especially of Putin, also made to look like Dr. Evil (even if many zombied out people in the West don't notice). In the overall desperation of a rotting and collapsing Empire, the more they do to stave off their end, the more they seem to speed it up. At least that's how it's looking to me for quite a while....

 

[Laura]

Joe's latest article is a welcome antidote to the paramoralistic insinuations made by propaganda trolls, though it is unlikely that those who NEED this information will actually read it.

http://www.sott.net/article/293245-The-insolvability-of-the-US-Russia-stand-off-The-psychopaths-problem-with-Russian-facts

This is one article that should be translated and shared widely.

 

[Howzat]

(Kiev) is … attempting to prevent Eastern Ukrainian independence

You are trying to frame the conflict as a) a simple struggle for 'independence' by a breakaway region b) fighting under its own steam, with no external military support from Russia.

a)
Do you really think Putin wants eastern Ukraine to be genuinely independent? Like one of the Baltics, Hungary, the Czech Republic, or Poland? Free to choose between the EU or the EEU and eventual absorption within the RF?

It's either disingenuous, or fuzzy thinking to use the term 'independence' in this context. In reality, the breakaway region's eventual independence will be strictly limited as it is Putin's obvious objective is to bring these chunks within the borders of the RF. There can be no serious doubt.There, the region will be as independent as, say, Chechnya. It is not the word the 100-200,000 dead in the Chechnyan wars would use.

(The route to these Ukraine territories becoming Russian territory may be circuitous, via reinstatement within Ukraine, and then extraction after subsequent breakup of Ukraine, along with other parts of the shattered state, timescale flexible, but spanning years. Putin's ultimate goal remains expansion of the RF.)

I suspect you use the term 'eastern Ukraine' because it is suitably vague, and even if unconsciously, the phrase makes the place sound suitably large. Unspoken, of course, is the capacity for expansion of the breakaway region by terror, subversion and military force: hybrid war.

If you want to speak accurately, the breakaway regions are not eastern Ukraine, but on the eastern edge of Ukraine. And there are not one but two, separate regions. (A small matter, as they can be rolled together at Moscow's convenience, by printing a referendum result in the Kremlin. But so far, left to themselves, it should be noted they have chosen to remain separate. This may be because they are seen as personal fiefdoms/ rackets by Plotnitsky (what a gangster!) and Zaharchenko, but it may reflect a residual difference in aspiration by the two populations.)

The 'republics' were entrained into what has become a war by covert Russian intervention. Strelkov has publically stated his crucial role. We may never know the true proportions of the population who would have chosen autonomy, or federal status within the RF, or a loosened affiliation without Ukraine. Certainly, by now it is to be suspected the fighting has long effectively 'ethnically cleansed' the region of any significant pro-Kiev opposition.

b)
Can it be you seriously think the republics are achieving their inexorable military success by themselves? Those war ravaged economies?

Can you see those pigs flying over the moon?

 

[Howzat]

(Kiev) is now following the dictates of Washington and the IMF etc. in attempting to prevent Eastern Ukrainian independence by way of a large scale military offensive

In the outlying suburbs of the Kremlin it seems to make no difference what actually happens: Ukraine must always be responsible for the next offensive.

Why when it does not fit the obvious evidence? The evidence points to the fact Kiev does not (for now) want another round of fighting, and there is obvious evidence that points to the fact that Russia/ the republics do want, and are actively preparing for an offensive.

For a start, the UAF is not strong enough to launch an offensive. Even if it strong enough to win back some ground locally, with the present balance of forces it would be suicide. Any significant advance would risk provoking Russia into open war. Russia could effortlessly escalate to match any Ukrainian effort. A single, sufficient reason why Ukraine will not launch the next offensive.

If in some dreamworld the UAF had incredible success, showed unexpected competence, overcame all conventional resistance to reach the borders, Russia could introduce air power, long range missiles, the threat… and actual use of nukes. This is not conspiracy theory. Putin has said he's prepared to do what it takes.

The net is crawling with evidence that Poroshenko and the UAF needs a ceasefire (for now). Poroshenko is desperately and actively trying to mobilise EU and UN support for the idea of international peacekeepers. Why would he do this if he did not want a real ceasefire? Poroshenko as Commander in Chief has given the UAF instructions to follow the terms of Minsk I and II. The UAF are not firing back despite advances by 'DNR' forces towards Mariupol right now:
http://conflictreport.info/2015/02/25/silent-advances-the-russian-offensive-towards-mariupol-already-began/#comments
So there is no way Kiev will be launching any offensive any time soon. 18 months, or two years may be a different matter. There is something of a race against the clock going on between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine can strengthen its fighting forces in that period, and Russia by then may run out of foreign reserves and face serious economic collapse and disruption and may not want a quagmire of war against 40 million people.

The next offensive will come from the East. It's written in neon letters. It may be slow motion, or slow, slow, fast but it will almost certainly come, and it could be huge. The build up of forces is reported to be unprecedented in the war so far. The assault could come in several directions. Zaharchenko never stops raving about Mariupol being his (along with the rest of Ukraine). All the evidence points to the next offensive coming from this quarter. Why would Moscow be against the idea of EU peacekeepers if it seriously wanted peace?

So why can the truth about the next offensive not be said out loud?

I have to presume there is a (partly hidden) narrative to protect? Because Russia can never be revealed as the aggressor? Because then the whole narrative of 'the West' being the cause of the conflict would start tumbling down?

 

[Howzat]

Hey, dude, what part of town you from? Speak, else me gonna shoot your muthf***** *ss.

English, English, English. Guilty, guilty, guilty. I cannot stop supporting Reading FC. I hope you can forgive me. They sometimes win.

Now I've gone and opened myself up to raving prejudice. I hear the shuffling tread of zombies, sharpening meathooks…

Well, half Scottish, actually. Let's drink a wee dram to that. Problem: I cannae stand the haggis.

Probably Celt, with a cultural stripe of Irish. Four years of Gaelic as a boy. Hello Clondalkin!

Makes 'me' a 'British'. British Isles? 'Me' is equally happy with the sound of 'British'. Which is only partly happy, as I'll attempt to outline below.

And American. Four years as a boy. Got a subcutaneous Hoosier T-shirt. That was before I knew I was signed up to NATO.

Born in Cyprus, which was in Asia at the time. Makes me Asian? A wee bit? Have legal rights to switch to Greek citizenship. Hell, not even Putin can say that.

The point is, nationalism is one of the most schismatic, separational forces in human nature. Whoever invented the Tower of Babel put over a good one on us. Big picture: one planet, the human race its custodians. Locking your identity into one particular patch of soil is to buy into an illusion that binds you in a mesh of pure prejudice. 'We have the sweetest songs, the best food, the prettiest children. When we toast our flag with our uniquely national beverage we have the most elevated feelings of all. Being us is absolutely the best.'

And the quarrelling flows from there. But national identity melts into absurdity when you examine it closely. From any angle at all. Ultimately it's an internal construct. Buttressed by the external constructs of human law: borders have no referent in nature. Where are even the geographical bounds of your fave country? Right up to recent history national borders have been in constant change. What is their aerial limit? Do those dotted lines on maps project outwards into space? Nationalism is an internal construct: a cage.

If you are proud of certain national values, which are objective, they must be human values.

It goes deep, very deep. I am surprised there has not been more focus on the CF on the emotion of nationalism, so key to the conflict in Ukraine. Arguably the single key is Vladimir Putin's sense of national identity. The emotional blind spot of nationalism is shown by the way patriotic affiliation is unchosen. You don't choose a country, it claims you. As a child you absorb the notion from people around you, and hey, one day, click, it's part of your personality (which is an assemblage of automated reactions which lives as 'you') and 'you' belong to that group. Patriotic pride can be (is exclusively?) an extension of ego, which, remember is always trying to be right, to justify itself to itself. This projected assertiveness of ego gets raw emotional charge from an instinctive territorial drive which is primal, feral, and an expression of a constant illusion: the need to survive. An illusion: because we exist.

I haven't got to the bottom of it. I think we should all be citizens of Earth, members of the human race. Basic peace, to do the work, is required. Which is why Gurdjieff went to Essentsuki rather than be a White or a Red or anything in between. I am sorry for the Ukrainians, East and West, who are forced to fight to achieve this stability and peace.

I believe borders should be more or less frozen, and mutual cooperation between nations increased, until one day there are no borders. 'Multipolar' is a recipe for turmoil, dogs fighting over bones. America can't help being hegemon, for now it's de facto. But what does hegemon mean? There's no Olympic medal for being top dog. Scheming elitists are in a personal hell of separation from the rest of the human race: let them enjoy their emotions. In the meantime, short of an institution of the Borg, or a return to the ponerised system of Communism/Nazism and you have the freedom to do the work, that is enough, for now.

President Putin, ultra-nationalist - perhaps rabidly so - is creating a godawful mess by insisting on redrawing the map to benefit 'Russia'.

Putin, 'Love of the Motherland provides one of the most elevated emotions' - is the stuff of enslavement.

 

[Howzat]

If Goebbels = Nazi = bad guy (the sense you are using him in) then you are close to being hoisted by your own petard. Careful, you'll be calling yourself a Nazi next.

Dude,

You fail to quote the full context of my remark. Is Goebbels bad because he was a Nazi, or because he was a vile spin doctor (who would have approved of RT). Or both? If you love RT, you have that in common with Goebbels, were he alive. As a general rule of thumb, it's not very nice to address someone as 'Goebbels'. (Except when addressing Goebbels himself, were he alive. He'd presumably still be OK with it?) 'Goebbels' is normally a smear term, unless you love RT, in which case you're in a quandary, stuck between a self-applying smear and a hard place. (Who's that chuckling from the grave? Not the Giftzwerg himself?)

If Butusov is a patriot, I am Jesus Christ, then.

May I call you Yeshua? I'm afraid Butusov is a patriot. Will you be changing your avatar? May I suggest a star of David?

you're so naive and stupid 'coz you can not realize fact what is the essence of Ukrainian media, …for what they write all this bullshit. but, of course, for you it is holly truth!

Christmas is here!!

You are mistaken. I cannot have the holy truth because it resides in Russia. Holy truth resides in Russia because Russia is the only nation that is 'Holy'. [bong icon]

so continue to eat these slops.

Well, you know…

One man's slops, another man's RT.

I will only say one thing: just go to hell, or to U.S. embassy - because it's one and the same. run to Nuland for cookies, because you're so great and independent Ukrainian, yeap!

Yessir. I mean *snaps to attention* Yes, Sir! Dang, those cookies taste good. And the embassy sure does a mean dog. The Devil, it seems, as well as the best tunes has all the best food.

 

[Siberia]

Why would Moscow be against the idea of EU peacekeepers if it seriously wanted peace?

Sorry to disappoint you, but the EU are also not happy with this peacekeepers idea. Following your logic, that kind of suggests the EU doesn't seriously want peace too..

See: _http://www.dw.de/eu-police-as-peacekeepers-in-ukraine/a-18269929

 

[Joe]

Lumiere is pretty much on the money with everything he has said about Ukraine.

Yeah, right. The NATO Hercules planes are already landing in Khazaria Airport? The Khazarian women have been reading their horoscopes and have realised allegiance to Moscow is their only course? Nuland bought the Maidan for $5 billion? Yanukovich was a fine, upstanding leader any country should be grateful to serve. The Cyborgs were getting their prisoners high on morphine substitutes? Ukraine is preparing a nuclear false flag? Ukraine is still ruled by a 'hunta'. Ukrainians are a subspecies of humans afflicted by genetic Nazism. A Polish battalion was fighting alongside the black troops in Debaltseve? Don't forget the 1/16th Jews in Kiev. Poros's family has fled Ukraine to avoid death threats by Yarosh? Ben Fulford said so. This thread is a hothouse of bizarre theories and wild speculation, unsourced, unreferenced, unchallenged, unacknowledged when wrong. It's low level propaganda for uncritical conspiracy theorists.

I won't list the bloodlust, and the language of hate.

To read this thread, a reader could think only the Ukrainian side

• 
  
  • uses cluster munitions
  • Has oligarchs interfering
  • Bombs hospitals
  • Bombs children and pensioners
  • Has grieving mothers
  • Causes terroristic provocations
  • Tortures prisoners
  • Disregards the Geneva Convention
  • Flies drones
  • Breaks the ceasefire
  • Has troops who surrender
  • Has high losses in battle
  • Uses badly trained conscripts
  • Uses barrier troops
  • Has psychopaths
  • Has troops from other countries fighting on its side (!)
  • Uses mercenaries
  • Uses weapons sourced outside Ukraine (!)
  • Recycles outdated weaponry
  • Has citizens who complain, indulge in civil discontent
  • Wages information war
  • Uses tactics of deception
  • Has disaffection in its parliament, disagreements with its elected representatives
  • Has problems with ultra-nationalists (Nazis)
  • Has corruption and venality
  • Etc
  • Etc
  • Etc

You're making the mistake of thinking you have any idea what you are talking about. You're obviously unable to critically think about this situation, which is evidenced by your straw man arguments, putting words in other people's mouths so you can shoot them down. You best leave the hard work of figuring out what is going on to the adults.

 

[Lumiere_du_Code]

Hey, dude, what part of town you from? Speak, else me gonna shoot your muthf***** *ss.

English, English, English. Guilty, guilty, guilty. I cannot stop supporting Reading FC. I hope you can forgive me. They sometimes win.
<...>

Hey, you, that's enough to change my words! You even removed reference to my comment, you did it deliberately, because you changed it!
and here that was actually:

Dude, where are you from? where you live? just answer to this question.

So, as saying Russians, walk in waltz ("Go fly a kite" / scram out of here)

 

[Joe]

You are trying to frame the conflict as a) a simple struggle for 'independence' by a breakaway region b) fighting under its own steam, with no external military support from Russia.

a) Do you really think Putin wants eastern Ukraine to be genuinely independent? Like one of the Baltics, Hungary, the Czech Republic, or Poland? Free to choose between the EU or the EEU and eventual absorption within the RF?

It's either disingenuous, or fuzzy thinking to use the term 'independence' in this context. In reality, the breakaway region's eventual independence will be strictly limited as it is Putin's obvious objective is to bring these chunks within the borders of the RF. There can be no serious doubt.There, the region will be as independent as, say, Chechnya. It is not the word the 100-200,000 dead in the Chechnyan wars would use.

No, they want to be independent of fascists, the IMF and the warmongering Brits and Americans that control Ukraine. THAT is what they want independence from. Who wouldn't (apart from you). Russia has never stated it wanted any parts of Eastern Ukraine to be sovereign nations. But he's clearly prepared to stand by the ethnic Russians of Eastern Ukraine in their desire to not be forced to play at part in NATO and the US government's hysterical and irrational attempts to bring Russia to heel. You, on the other hand, are an obvious authoritarian follower and, therefore, a shill for brutal and inhuman psychopaths at the helm of the anglo-American empire. I have no idea what you think you possibly stand to gain from this forum since so much of what we discuss is beyond your ability to comprehend.

(The route to these Ukraine territories becoming Russian territory may be circuitous, via reinstatement within Ukraine, and then extraction after subsequent breakup of Ukraine, along with other parts of the shattered state, timescale flexible, but spanning years. Putin's ultimate goal remains expansion of the RF.

Did you get that from the BBC? Or was it CNN? It's pretty pathetic of you. NATO is expanding, the US Empire is expanding, every Russian action has been IN RESPONSE to NATO aggression.

I suspect you use the term 'eastern Ukraine' because it is suitably vague, and even if unconsciously, the phrase makes the place sound suitably large. Unspoken, of course, is the capacity for expansion of the breakaway region by terror, subversion and military force: hybrid war.

Again with the Western media propaganda. You're pretty pathetic.

If you want to speak accurately, the breakaway regions are not eastern Ukraine, but on the eastern edge of Ukraine.

So now you descend to nitpicking to avoid the crux of the matter.

The 'republics' were entrained into what has become a war by covert Russian intervention. Strelkov has publically stated his crucial role. We may never know the true proportions of the population who would have chosen autonomy, or federal status within the RF, or a loosened affiliation without Ukraine. Certainly, by now it is to be suspected the fighting has long effectively 'ethnically cleansed' the region of any significant pro-Kiev opposition.

What a ridiculous contention, straight from the mouths of Western warmongers. Yeah, all those people that have been killed by indiscriminate shelling of urban areas by Kiev forces were "pro Kiev". That's Kiev's strategy you see, to target the people in Eastern Ukraine who support them. Dunning Kruger all over the place, you have no idea how idiotic your statements are.

b)Can it be you seriously think the republics are achieving their inexorable military success by themselves? Those war ravaged economies?

Of course not, they are being aided by the Russians.

Can you see those pigs flying over the moon?

No, but I can see you talking an unmerciful amount of horsesh1t here.

 

[Zee Ley]

This thread is kind of weak spot to me. Hardly can keep myself unbiased. Anyway...
The point that is extensively covered in Russian side of the media is "Ukrainian army kills civilians and destroys their property". Recently found this video on youtube: _https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mgLdG9o0n5A
And I am aware that it doesn't necessary explain all the cruelties that were done.

And to Be,

It's either disingenuous, or fuzzy thinking to use the term 'independence' in this context. In reality, the breakaway region's eventual independence will be strictly limited as it is Putin's obvious objective is to bring these chunks within the borders of the RF. There can be no serious doubt.There, the region will be as independent as, say, Chechnya. It is not the word the 100-200,000 dead in the Chechnyan wars would use

Regarding Chechnya some time before I was stupid enough to watch one video from that war. In the video Russian soldiers were butchered in halal way. As I know there are many relevant videos from that period of time.
Although my opinion is partly based on emotional thinking I still can't justify and tolerate cruelty and torture by anyone. I have relatives and friend back in Ukraine. So I'm pretty much aware of their moods and attitude. By the way they are on the "Ukrainian" side. And I can clearly see that this side is NOT the same as of current government... or Russia. To be honest by watching Pro-Russian AND Pro-Western propaganda I think that average people are deceived. One friend from Kiev recently mentioned that President Poroshenko is the same scum as Yanukovich was. He is not interesting in changing anything.
In general about what was just said. I see current situation as challenge to Ukrainian people and I wish them all the best in their decision:)

P. S. And regarding the video above... my face is ready for rotten tomatoes:)))