Civil War in Ukraine: Western Empire vs Russia

[Windmill knight]

“Western-engineered Coup d'État? “
- I'll try to explain how looked reasons for mass action against the Ukrainian power from within Ukraine.

[...]

10. And on 3 December the first heavy trucks with the grabbed values under escort of machine gunners left the residence Yanukovych Mezhygorye towards the airport.

11. The will for normal life of Ukrainians, their righteous struggle for that cause, their hopes, ALL co-opted, perverted and use in the worst ways you can imagine by the western psychopathic intelligence services for the western (mostly USA) psychopathic causes.

Yes, Oleg, you skipped important parts of the story: the 5 billion that the US gave to the Ukranian opposition throughout the years; the takeover of the popular movement by the Banderites, many of whom are openly neo-nazis and neo-fascists, and who took care of turning the movement into extreme violence - even more violent than the police; the massacre of Odessa by the same elements; and the infamous Victoria Nuland phone call in which she discussed who the US wanted in power in Ukraine (and which actually happened). That is before the new Ukranian government started shelling civilians on E. Ukraine.

So, nobody is saying that the original Maidan protestors didn't have legitimate reasons to protest, i.e. corruption. But the movement got hijacked, and the result is for all intents and purposes, exactly that: a Western-engineered Coup d'Etat. One proof that the Maidan people didn't get what they wanted is that, at least until around a month ago, they were still protesting. I think that with a bloody civil war, it is safe to say that Ukraine went from bad to much worse. None of that would have happened if this had been a purely popular movement.

That's how coups against foreign governments are done. They don't start from scratch. The engineers are opportunists and take years of funding and propaganda and creating links to the leaders of the opposition, until they get their chance to topple governments. And when the right time comes they pull the strings in their favor to see that their people land at the top. Read 'The Secret Team' by L. Fletcher Prouty for a more detailed explanation of how the CIA operates.

 

[Nević Nenad]

[quote author=OlegNN]
Do not be so naive. Our salaries, our revenues, taxes, and all of our treasury Yanukovych dragged with him to Russia. If you're Putin simpatico - ask him where is the money stolen from us. Tens of billions of dollars. He knows. And I do not think that the guys from the Kremlin left that trucks full of cash to Yanukovych. Something left.
[/quote]

Just noticed this, it is interesting. That is the VERY story which Nazis (as a occupiers) and later communist regimes told to their respective nations (Yugoslav, for example) during the World War Two and later:

“Your king has run to England with all of your fortune. He took all your national gold and jewelry. Blame him for your poverty now!”.

In the real world it was they who took it.

 

[Oleg NN]

Yes, Oleg, you skipped important parts of the story: the 5 billion that the US gave to the Ukranian opposition throughout the years

- the US never gave nor the 5 billion not the 1 billion to the Ukranian opposition.

US money like "to the Ukranian opposition" is a fake. It's coming from Nuland speech - and her words were twisted. In orifinal it sounded that way:

Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government - all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals.

_http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm

What it's about? In Kiev I have heard of some US organisations involved in the issue - the USAID, the TACIS (Technical Accistance for CIS countries) and PADCO. Our company worked with PADCO. The ficancing of the project came from the US. With a budget of tens of millions of dollars had quite subversive title: "The system of personified registration data of the Pension Fund of Ukraine."

I saw and a weighty volume of other subversive project of the Ukrainian opposition. It was called "The reorganization of the municipal services of the city of Kharkov." In PADCO (they were sitting in a big old house on the territory of the monastery in Kiev Frolovsky) more than 40 people engaged in similar projects.

But the most subversive of the Ukrainian bureaucracy were American lectures on the organization of local self-government, and in 2004 - on public control over transparent and fair elections.

At the same time, as far as I know, the American financing of such projects in Russia under the TACIS and USAID markedly also came on the billions of dollars.

 

[Oleg NN]

..

. the takeover of the popular movement by the Banderites, many of whom are openly neo-nazis and neo-fascists, and who took care of turning the movement into extreme violence - even more violent than the police; the massacre of Odessa by the same elements; and the infamous Victoria Nuland phone call in which she discussed who the US wanted in power in Ukraine (and which actually happened). That is before the new Ukranian government started shelling civilians on E. Ukraine.

In fact, "Banderites" (Banderovtsy) were the Ukrainian partisans in Western Ukraine since the WWII, which in 1943-1950 fought first the German and then the Russian occupation. The goal they had was simple and clear - an independent and sovereign Ukraine, free from foreign enslavement. They had their own guerrilla army - UPA (Ukrainian Isurgent Army) - well organized and disciplined. UPA used the strong support of the Ukrainian population. It is this support that allowed the guerrillas to fight 5 years in full blockade and without any support and assistance from outside. To fight one-on-one with the most powerful military power - the Soviet Union - with its vast repressive apparatus. In that region during the Great Siege 1946-1947 were brought troops of the NKVD-MGB - up to 57 thousand officers and soldiers. Details of the great unknown war -to article from the Russian spetsnaz magazine. "Blue caps against embroidered shirts" _http://www.bratishka.ru/archiv/2008/11/2008_11_13.php

The scale of the fighting illustrates only one figure: according to official Soviet data, only for 1944-45 in the battles in Western Ukraine 110 thousand Ukrainian partisans were killed.

So Banderites at the moment - it is not a political movement. This is a tribute to Ukrainians those who fought for our independence and freedom - as we fight for it with Russia these days. And that's why the slogan of Bandera - Glory to Ukraine! - (and as an answer) - Glory to Heroes! - has become popular since the beginning of this year, not only in western Ukraine, but also in many places in the east. And the slogan was born in 1919 - when in the heart of Ukraine, at the Cold Ravine, the descendants of our Cossacks fought against the Russian red invaders for 3 years .

So, nobody is saying that the original Maidan protestors didn't have legitimate reasons to protest, i.e. corruption. But the movement got hijacked, and the result is for all intents and purposes, exactly that: a Western-engineered Coup d'Etat.

Nobody here believes that the fall of the regime of Yanukovich was a "coup", and even more so - that is was the military coup. It's absurd to call our power a junta - no military at power - look for a junta in our East.

For us the fall of Yanukovich is a normal and absolutely natural final of of the bandits and thieves. If you want - the hand of the Lord. They had to have a bad final and they've got it. They are to be happy they all stayed alive. We did not want extra blood - we've had enough of our own. Ukrainians are tolerant and peaceful until they leave us a chance to stay tolerant and peaceful.

And maidan moved on - in the direction of implementation of the general idea - a complete change of the format of power in the country - from the post-Soviet - to the democratic model. And no one here is trying to copy the West today - we have no illusions about where now wandered Western democracy and what was left of it. We have our own vision of how and on what principles should our society be build. And these principles are so convincing, clear and close to all that the maidan in Ukraine won almost effortlessly. In this case, it involved the Ukrainians of different nationalities - including - all my Russian friends of the Kiev locals, too.

And maidan recently stopped in its motion only where it was stopped by the Russian aggression.

We had to go in such circumstances to the hard forced compromise with our oligarchs and even politicians of the former Party of Regions. This is temporarily. We'll move on as soon as the war ends. And Putin knows it and he is afraid of that. So he throws the logs on the fire.

I think that the Western bureaucracy liked our maidan not too much, too. And I know why,

 

[clerck de bonk]

I think that the Western bureaucracy liked our maidan not too much, too. And I know why,

Well, please tell us since You seem to be in the 'know'.

 

[Seppo Ilmarinen]

Yes, Oleg, you skipped important parts of the story: the 5 billion that the US gave to the Ukranian opposition throughout the years

- the US never gave nor the 5 billion not the 1 billion to the Ukranian opposition.

US money like "to the Ukranian opposition" is a fake. It's coming from Nuland speech - and her words were twisted. In orifinal it sounded that way:

Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government - all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals.

_http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm

You can't really expect Nuland to say in a speech that: "We are using this money to create opposition forces through different NGO's that will drive our own national agenda in Ukraine". Read between the lines. Use your own critical thinking by asking questions like this: Will the US really invest 5 billion dollars for just altruistic purposes in a country that has critical geopolitical location (or in any country to be honest)? Do they just genuinely want to bring "democracy" into Ukraine? And then perhaps contemplate how this democracy business has worked in Iraq, Afganistan, Syria, Libya etc? Do you see any vested interests? A pattern perhaps?

You might be interested of these too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8
http://www.sott.net/article/274978-USAID-involved-in-getting-Ukraine-coup-up-and-running
http://www.sott.net/article/278775-Beware-of-USAID-agency-bearing-gifts

 

[Laura]

Yes, Oleg, you skipped important parts of the story: the 5 billion that the US gave to the Ukranian opposition throughout the years; the takeover of the popular movement by the Banderites, many of whom are openly neo-nazis and neo-fascists, and who took care of turning the movement into extreme violence - even more violent than the police; the massacre of Odessa by the same elements; and the infamous Victoria Nuland phone call in which she discussed who the US wanted in power in Ukraine (and which actually happened). That is before the new Ukranian government started shelling civilians on E. Ukraine.

So, nobody is saying that the original Maidan protestors didn't have legitimate reasons to protest, i.e. corruption. But the movement got hijacked, and the result is for all intents and purposes, exactly that: a Western-engineered Coup d'Etat. One proof that the Maidan people didn't get what they wanted is that, at least until around a month ago, they were still protesting. I think that with a bloody civil war, it is safe to say that Ukraine went from bad to much worse. None of that would have happened if this had been a purely popular movement.

That's how coups against foreign governments are done. They don't start from scratch. The engineers are opportunists and take years of funding and propaganda and creating links to the leaders of the opposition, until they get their chance to topple governments. And when the right time comes they pull the strings in their favor to see that their people land at the top. Read 'The Secret Team' by L. Fletcher Prouty for a more detailed explanation of how the CIA operates.

Exactly.

Regarding Oleg... hmmm...

 

[Laura]

I reckon Oleg can be assessed as part of this psyop:

http://rt.com/politics/186252-russian-maidan-yabloko-dollars/

Representatives of the recently-founded anti-Maidan council claim that the veteran pro-democracy party has received millions from the US and plans to overthrow the Russian government with the help of Ukrainian and Georgian spin doctors.

The head of the Anti-Fascist anti-Maidan council, Evgeny Shabayev has told the popular mass circulation daily Izvestia that his group possessed information about Ukrainian and Georgian citizens who played major roles in preparations to the violent events leading to displacement of governments and dissolution of parliaments in these countries – the so-called ‘color revolutions’. Now these people arrive in Russia and start talks with representatives of the pro-democracy opposition party Yabloko and other opposition groups in order to prepare and launch a similar regime change in Russia, the activist claimed.

According to Shabayev, at present stage Yabloko together with members of the Solidarity group are holding a string of single-person protests. Over 1,000 people have been hired to participate in them and each signed a contract to picket for 15 days for a $2,500 fee. The total budget of the event amounts to over 90 million rubles (about $2.4 million) and it will end with a massive rally on September 21.

The activist noted that the timing of protests is tied with the approaching national voting day, which falls on September 14. He said that the most intense and numerous protests will take place in major cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg (Moscow is holding elections to the city legislature and St. Petersburg is holding its mayoral poll).

Shabayev also said that it was obvious for him that the whole scenario is backed by the US Department of State as the United States is interested in changing the political system in Russia, as already happened in Georgia, Ukraine, Libya and other countries where the ‘color revolutions’ had succeeded.

Boris Nemtsov of the opposition party Parnas (People’s Freedom Party) has confirmed that a major rally called the March of Peace was scheduled for September 21 and that it was organized together with Yabloko.

The Yabloko party has strongly denied receiving funds from any foreign state as well as organizing any protests. However, a source in the Moscow City Hall has told Izvestia that the pickets in the city center had been organized by Yabloko and the participants were protesting for fees.

The Anti-Maidan Council was formed in August this year by veterans of the Russian military and special forces together with rights activists and representatives of Orthodox Christian community. The main goal of the group was announced as thwarting attempts to forcefully change the political system in Russia by informing citizens of the methods of Western propaganda. The council also plans to organize own rallies and events in order to promote the interests of the Russian state and prevent ethnic tensions in the nation’s regions.


The Yabloko party was founded in 1993 and is one of the oldest in Russia. The party promotes the ideas of democracy and social liberalism and it was fairly popular in mid-1990s, winning about 10 percent of seats in the lower house in 1995. However, since then the public support for Yabloko has dwindled and the party got no seats in the State Duma in 2007 and 2011.

Just a little point here: notice what "democracy and social liberalism" have done to the US where there is SO MUCH "democracy" and "social liberalism."

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I reckon Oleg can be assessed as part of this psyop:

http://rt.com/politics/186252-russian-maidan-yabloko-dollars/

Representatives of the recently-founded anti-Maidan council claim that the veteran pro-democracy party has received millions from the US and plans to overthrow the Russian government with the help of Ukrainian and Georgian spin doctors.

Kinda puts this bit from his forum intro into context, huh?

I took part a bit in the Maidan-2004 - all this happened in a 5-minute walk from our office. Before that I was not interested in politics - and will happily forget about it once my country will be quiet again.

The terms of his contract?

 

[Oleg NN]

I think that the Western bureaucracy liked our maidan not too much, too. And I know why,

Well, please tell us since You seem to be in the 'know'.

- European bureaucracy could dislike Maidan as much as it was carrying a powerful antibureaucrat charge. Yanukovych's power in this case was the epitome of extreme bureaucracy, although the maximum bureaucracy is, I think, a dictatorship. To dictatorship Yanukovych went straight through - copying Putin in many respects.

 

[Altair]

I think that the Western bureaucracy liked our maidan not too much, too. And I know why,

Well, please tell us since You seem to be in the 'know'.

- European bureaucracy could dislike Maidan as much as it was carrying a powerful antibureaucrat charge. Yanukovych's power in this case was the epitome of extreme bureaucracy, although the maximum bureaucracy is, I think, a dictatorship. To dictatorship Yanukovych went straight through - copying Putin in many respects.

Why should European bureaucracy dislike Maidan? Either the first or the second Maidan were staged by this same European bureaucracy as you call it. There is mostly John McCain and his NGO International Republican Institute (IRI) who are behind all the color revolutions. Nobody here speaks for Yanukovych. Just try to use your critical mind and not preconceived opinions of the mass media and do your own research.

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[Siberia]

I reckon Oleg can be assessed as part of this psyop:

http://rt.com/politics/186252-russian-maidan-yabloko-dollars/

Indeed. Those bastards leaded by Nemtsov & Co came here, to Novosibirsk, one month ago: to hold a meeting for.. federalization of Siberia! Those psychos are "unaware" that Russia IS a federation already for quite some time.. Our mayor rejected their application for a meeting, but the idiots still came to the city square "to protest" - about 15 zombies in total. Our local people - ordinary citizens - kindly explained them, that we don't need this farce show here and asked them to leave the place asap. Later our prokuratura also had a very convincing and polite talk with the organizers. Since then, their page at Vkontakte social network has been closed (which content was a collection of hilarious BS, I assure you).

As for Oleg, all I can say is that trying to prove anything to him is a 100% waste of time. Like one of the latest SoTT articles went: "his mind's made up, so don't confuse him with the facts."

 

[Oleg NN]

You can't really expect Nuland to say in a speech that: "We are using this money to create opposition forces through different NGO's that will drive our own national agenda in Ukraine". Read between the lines

- I just mentioned Nuland to explain where the version on the "US$ 5 billion for Ukrainian oppostition" came from. And nothing more.

The protest movement in Ukraine - and I know it well on its lower level - was always very short of money and external support. It was held here on the enthusiasm, on volunteers, on the traditions of Ukrainian national resistance to foreign rule. I can tell you how the protest arousen, how people in Kiev called to each other asking whether their friends or relatives will go to Maidan tomorrow - and of the unique communication system to arrange volunbteer assistance and direct help to our protesters of any sort - by medicains, lawyers, foods, used tires, bottles for Molotov cocktails, etc.

And now, when the movement finally stuck in power (in a very compromise format) - support for it from the West is more at the level of blah-blah-blah. And that even in those days, when the northern neighbor is trying to crush it by brutal military force.

Use your own critical thinking by asking questions like this: Will the US really invest 5 billion dollars for just altruistic purposes in a country that has critical geopolitical location (or in any country to be honest)?

- Certainly, no. US has a pragmatic goal - not to let Russia to absorb Ukraine again - as there is an obvious Russian trend for such absorbing. And for not coming into a direct confrontation with Russia the best and low-cost way for US in that is to support the own Ukrainians will to live their own life - not under Russian rule.

Do they just genuinely want to bring "democracy" into Ukraine? And then perhaps contemplate how this democracy business has worked in Iraq, Afganistan, Syria, Libya etc? Do you see any vested interests? A pattern perhaps?

- WE ARE NOT LIBYA. And we are not Russia. We are a nation with 1000-year tradition of democracy that long ago has got a part of our mentality. We do not need democracy to be imported to Ukraine. We just need dictatorship not to be brought to us from outside as it was in 1918, in 1939 - and as an attempt - right now.

 

[Oleg NN]

I reckon Oleg can be assessed as part of this psyop:

http://rt.com/politics/186252-russian-maidan-yabloko-dollars/

Indeed. Those bastards leaded by Nemtsov & Co came here, to Novosibirsk, one month ago: to hold a meeting for.. federalization of Siberia! Those psychos are "unaware" that Russia IS a federation already for quite some time..

- I think you do not understand the irony that Nemtsov put into the word "federalization" saying about Siberia. He was referring to the same phony "federalization" as Moscow means when mentions Donetsk . In fact here is a question of separation of Donbass from Ukraine. And the same topic was about Siberia. I lived in Siberia 5 years and I know that the locals said - here in Siberia - and there in Russia.

Russia for them was all that to the west of the Urals. And you are kidding - or you really have not heard anything about the real Siberian separatism. And do not make a fool of Nemtsov. And do not try to represent the work of the FSB as "the will of the Siberians". It's not the same.

 

[Oleg NN]

Just noticed this, it is interesting. That is the VERY story which Nazis (as a occupiers) and later communist regimes told to their respective nations (Yugoslav, for example) during the World War Two and later:

“Your king has run to England with all of your fortune. He took all your national gold and jewelry. Blame him for your poverty now!”.

In the real world it was they who took it.

- the local story tells that Yanukovich started to carry the stolen money out from Ukraine to Russia when he was still at full power here. As early as on Dec 1, 2013:

From the Mezhyhirya left three bank KamAZ - media
December 1, 2013, 19:06

_http://obozrevatel.com/politics/83712-iz-mezhigorya-vyiehali-tri-bankovskih-kamaza-smi.htm

KamAZ is a Russian-built truck