JERZY KARWELIS: Since I want to talk to you about the entire Covid pandemic from a scientific point of view, I am asking you to introduce yourself, mainly from the side that will confirm that you know what you are talking about - who are you, Doctor Pieniążek?
NORMAN PIENIĄŻEK: I was born in Poland and graduated in genetics from the University of Warsaw under prof. Wacław Gajewski. I got my Ph.D. at the Department of Genetics, University of Warsaw. In the 1970s, I worked at many laboratories outside Poland. During martial law in the middle 1980s, I did not return from a scholarship to Spain and then moved to the USA.
What scientific achievements predispose you to a broader knowledge of the nature of the coronavirus and the assessment of strategies to combat it?
I am a molecular biologist, worked as a virologist, and taught molecular biology. After two years in the US, I won a CDC [Center for Disease Control and Prevention] position to create a laboratory of reference molecular diagnostics. I worked at CDC as the head of this laboratory for 24 years until 2013, when I retired.
What research in this laboratory influenced your knowledge about coronavirus and its diagnosis?
Two projects were crucial to understanding the coronavirus pandemic. The first was POIS, a study of respiratory infections in people with HIV. I learned from this study that molecular diagnosis is not the gold diagnostic standard, which is essential in understanding the problems of the current use of PCR testing techniques for SARS-CoV-2 (COVID). The second project, named EPIC, lasted six years. The results were so significant that anyone working with coronavirus should read the EPIC publications. Sixty-two percent of hospitalized patients with pneumonia showed no known pathogens. So do I have to ask why, when COVID appeared, things changed drastically? Did someone wave a magic wand, and at least 200 other viruses infecting the respiratory tract disappeared? Is it surprising that you find only one virus when testing only for one? That's pure BS.
I want to dismantle all the pillars of the covid pandemic here today with you. So let's start from the beginning. There are many hypotheses about from where the virus came. The extreme is that it got out of a laboratory in Wuhan, where local scientists developed it. The other extreme thesis is that it jumped from a bat or a pangolin to a human in a wet market in Wuhan. Which version do you think is true?
You are suggesting that the construction of a biological weapon took place. During the last hundred years, there have been many projects to create such weapons. However, all these projects failed as testing new germs on human subjects was not feasible.
What was this "pandemic"?
It is necessary to return to the history of the cruise ship "Diamond Princess." It's February 2020. We have a cruise ship in quarantine anchored off Yokohama, Japan. The debacle started on January 31 and lasted until the end of February. A Chinese man from Wuhan, ill with COVID, flew to Hong Kong, Tokyo, and Yokohama, embarked on the Diamond Princess, and mingled with thousands of people. Japanese Professor of virology Kentaro Iwata goes to the quarantined ship and records a video (it's on YouTube) where he says that, in his opinion, everyone on the cruise ship is going to die. It turned out that only eight elderly and sick people out of 3,711 passengers and crew died during the quarantine. Please remember, the situation on Diamond Princess was tense and very stressful. Not even a runny nose among the staff, on average, much younger than passengers.
Okay, but with what were we dealing? With a tiger or a kitten? It's the deadly SARS.
Exactly - the main problem with this virus is its name. SARS stands for Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, a disease with high mortality. If it were SARS, people on the entire cruise ship would die in an already leaky ship quarantine. So, the virus was called SARS-CoV-2 to create panic; if it were DT53/N3 or something like that, no one would see it as a deadly disease.
Let's move on to the second pillar - PCR tests. Are they okay? I came across numerous opinions that if we didn't stick this thermometer into everyone and everywhere, we wouldn't even know there was a pandemic.
Yeah, that's right. First, let's look at the flu. Every year we have several million infected people in Poland. However, no one at the doctor's office has shoved anything up your nose because it didn't matter what infected you (see above: 62 percent of pneumonia cases are of unknown origin). Instead, the doctor checked you for pneumonia and sent you home to reduce contacts and rest. Nevertheless, if the doctor detects complications, he will give you broad-spectrum antibiotics to treat your pneumonia or send you to a hospital.
So what about those tests? What did they show?
Testing viruses on a nasal swab tell us more about how polluted the air we breathe is than about the etiology (cause) of the infection.
Let's go back again, this time to the European beginning. And not epidemiological, but in the area of media events. Trucks with coffins in Bergamo. What have we witnessed?
When the epidemic started in Bergamo, all who cared for the elderly fled. In that city, the worldwide media showed two things: trucks loaded with coffins and a church packed with dozens of coffins. The trucks were full of coffins because the funeral homes were closed and under imposed lockdown. The photos from the church, on the other hand, were shots from a few years ago, after the shipwreck with refugees at sea. The media stories were so hysterical that the US military authorities dispatched two military hospital ships to New York Harbor, each with a capacity of 1,000 patients. It turned out that during the first four weeks, only about 20 patients passed through them.
Yes, only thirty-six patients passed through the field hospital set up at the Polish National Stadium in Warsaw during its "working period." Well, specific mathematical models were predicting the development of a massive pandemic.
Yes, but let's see how it worked. The leading creator of these models, Briton Neil Ferguson, goes with these terrible death charts to the then British Prime Minister – Mr. Boris Johnson. Boris kicks him out of his office, so our "modeler" goes straight to the BBC and says in a dramatic interview that the Prime Minister has just decided to murder millions of Britons. The media catches such a sensation, raises the heat, and the prime minister gives up. Media, not science. We also have a prediction center in Poland. In charge is an incompetent geographer with no knowledge of infectious diseases.
Another pillar is research. You are the preacher of the thesis that we must reject all scientific papers published after March 2020.
That's what I think, which I've been writing about since May 2020. But this is not my thesis, but Prof. Roman Zieliński's. He believes that all this "research" is neo-Lysenkoism. They are so fake. In May 2020, for example, two papers appeared in top medical publications proving that hydroxychloroquine (which Trump took to treat his respiratory infection) causes heart damage. Because of my profession, I have worked a lot with people dealing with malaria, and hydroxychloroquine is the primary drug used for malaria by billions of people in tropical areas. Was this an important discovery? After all, billions would have died of heart disease long ago if that were true. Someone somewhere would notice that long ago. After two weeks, the publishers recalled these papers; however, the media did not provide this information even more than a year later. The fight against COVID drugs such as ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, and amantadine paved the way for adopting vaccines without proper testing under the Emergency Use Authorization (EUA). One of the three conditions for vaccines to be approved exceptionally quickly by granting a EUA is that there is no cure for the disease targeted by the vaccine.
So, can the entire period from March 2020 to the end of that year be treated as a preparatory period, an action intended for future vaccines? Media are spreading panic, weakening immunity through stress, not treating patients, and limiting access to health care. There was such a panic that nations demanded the introduction of vaccines as soon as possible without long-term research. To which the authorities responded willingly. I am omitting the contortions of media and governments in which everyone wanted to demonstrate the fastest possible fulfillment of these hysterical, although induced, wishes.
There seems to have been a period up to May 2020 when there was still a discussion. Then there were only publications by neo-Lysenkoism followers, exceptionally far from evidence-based medicine. But on the other hand, the media blocked voices other than the established choir. And the lack of discussion blocks the circulation of knowledge and, thus, the development of science.
Now, what about vaccines, the central pillar of Covidianism? Do you believe that although there are several types of vaccines, health authorities selected the most harmful vaccine?
The oldest are vaccines, where doctors inject people with a harmless virus (e.g., vaccinia) related to the harmful (smallpox). The body produces antibodies that work for both viruses. Then there were attenuated vaccines, i.e., viruses weakened by passage (subsequent infection of animals or in cell culture). The reaction was the same when injected: the immune system reacted to the attenuated vaccine like a live virus and generated immunity. Finally, in the 1970s, work began on vaccines using genetic engineering. Virologists knew that they could not grow or weaken all viruses in this way, so something had to be found for, for example, the hepatitis B virus. Using genetic engineering, scientists could make viral proteins (antigens) in the lab in bacterial or other cultures. Such vaccines have been around for a long time; they're called subunit vaccines.
All right, but the current mRNA vaccines are some new idea "on the occasion of" coronavirus?
Of course not! It's the 80s. Researchers explored this technique in every way. In 2019, the final meta-analysis was published, i.e., a summary of all studies with mRNA vaccines. Regulatory authorities rejected the use of such vaccines in humans and animals. Starting in the Summer of 2020, snake-oil pushers immediately started saying it was the same technology used in polio and smallpox vaccines, that it works great, so why not for COVID? The distortion is that respiratory viruses have a different strategy than measles or smallpox. The respiratory viruses are seasonal, and they return each year after mutating. Vaccination against such viruses (for now) is fiction. For example, vaccines against the influenza virus are effective in only about 2.8 percent of healthy young people and the elderly - zero.
It's a scam. What is the downside of this vaccine?
The problem is that vaccines based on mRNA encapsulated in lipid nanoparticles have one serious flaw. This mRNA vaccine spreads throughout the body. It has been found in various organs: the sexual organs, the brain, the kidneys, and the heart. As a result, the body treats it not as an infection of the deltoid muscle but of the whole body. Our immune system fights the imaginary pathogen by destroying the infected cells, i.e., cells transformed by the vaccine with unpredictable results.
What is the mechanism of this spread of the vaccine?
Traditional vaccines, based on an immunogenic protein, are unstable. They last briefly in the deltoid muscle until the immune system reacts, which recognizes the vaccine as a pathogen and reacts. In the case of mRNA vaccines, their lipid nanoparticles are not immunogenic. They do not cause the body's reaction because the immune system would destroy them before they generate the spike protein in the cell. Thus, they can spread with impunity in the first phase and reach various organs. And as a result of the genetic transformation of a cell, a foreign protein (an antigen) will appear on the cell's surface. Transformed cells are recognized as foreign and are killed by the immune system with unpredictable results.
So is the discussion settled about whether the mRNA vaccine is a gene therapy? Are we splitting hairs??
Yes, they are gene therapies because they perform the genetic transformation of the cells they enter. But in addition, there is the problem of the integrity of the vaccines. So, for example, in different batches by the same manufacturer, the repeatability of the declared size of the mRNA does not exceed a few percent. And then we don't even know where it goes or what it does since we're not sure what it is.
We've got all sorts of illnesses now. At record levels in different age groups. Strokes, heart attacks, myocarditis, thrombosis, cancers and relapses of treated diseases, practically everything. Could it be because of these vaccines? Because some external causes on a global scale are sought (obviously by volunteers), the only thing that comes to mind is mRNA vaccines.
Vaccines may be the case, but I haven't seen any good studies on the subject yet.
But isn't that indirect evidence? After all, before the Covid times, science would have rushed to explain such anomaly growth of illnesses a long time ago. And here, no one investigates, which in my opinion, is fear of the unknown truth or perhaps fear of the known fact.
I am a supporter of the scientific approach. However, since these vaccines should not be used at all, it is better to think about and find out how it happened that they were approved than to track down the effects of it. It shouldn't be in the body of humans at all.
Then why do you think such a lie could have happened? Who is behind it? Coincidence? Misunderstanding? Herd mentality? Fear? Mass corruption? Globalism, greedy corporations? Who, for example, chose and forced on us the worst from several known variants of vaccines? Why and for what? Especially since the period before vaccines were allowed shows premeditation on a global scale (May to December 2020). Not only by preparation of the public through media campaigns to demand vaccines now.
Let's look at the FDA [Food and Drug Administration - ed. red.] approved vaccine against pneumonia. And later, it turned out that its efficiency was 0.8 percent. And the FDA should approve vaccines that are more than 50% effective. Corruption is the only explanation here. Plus, the media created panic. Let us recall the history of Bergamo. And let's look at Sweden, which (it turned out right after two years) went into a different strategy, but the lying media attacked this country for murdering its citizens.
So who's to blame?
Corrupt scientists. They provided wrong advice to the government, causing over 200,000 excess deaths in Poland. Moreover, these excess deaths in Poland happened by recommended procedures that have nothing to do with science.
So, the government's actions resulted in more victims than caused by the coronavirus?
Yes, it was done by lying by the scientists. I do not blame politicians because, for example, I do not think that Trump would be bribed. When Trump announced the lockdown, everyone at the conference was worried, except for Fauci and Birx, who were happy as if they had received a significant gift. They thought about the Nobel Prize.
For me, however, it is the responsibility of politicians. You can take whatever advisers you want, but the politician makes the final decisions and is therefore responsible for them.
Sweden did not do lockdowns and masking because her two top public health advisers objected. They must have read the work of the famous Donald Henderson, where he discusses the methods used to mitigate the spread of pandemic influenza.
You watched the whole pandemic world from the USA. What does Poland look like? Are there any specifics?
(laughs) Yes, Poles are traditionally skeptical and cautious. Vaccination campaigns were not very successful. On average, one Pole was tested once, while in Denmark and Austria, each citizen was tested 20 times. That's crazy. On top of that, in Poland, many fake vaccination credentials are readily available.
And what do you think about Polish experts? Did they stand out from the rest?
Yes, they stick out by being stupid and rude. However, professors should keep some decorum. They don't read scientific literature and spend hours in storage rooms for scientific deadwood. And not only do they know little, but they scream and shout when interviewing journalists kneeling in front of them. In addition, they insult, often their own, victims. That's crazy and mean.
Will there be Nuremberg?
We will see. A lot is going on now.
So is the world wrong?
Not the world, but the experts.
And what - the world listened to corrupt or sloppy experts, and then all went downhill? Just like that?
It's just a science thing, just like with global warming. You may know that scientists will write nonsense for money. The media will hype any idiocy. So we will repeat the covid path over and over.
Doctor Norman Pieniążek – molecular biologist, Ph.D. with a specialty in biochemical genetics, former Professor of Genetics and Molecular Biology at the Department of Genetics in Seville, Spain, and Professor of Microbiology at the Department of Microbiology, Immunology, and Parasitology at the Louisiana State University Medical Center in New Orleans. From 1989 until his retirement in 2013, he was the founder and head of the first Molecular Reference Diagnostics Laboratory at the National Center for Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta, Georgia. Norman Pieniążek has published over 140 papers in prestigious journals, including Nature. His works have been and still are cited over 8 thousand. times. He is a specialist in the field of molecular biology with particular emphasis on diagnostic PCR tests of all kinds, virology, and epidemiology, as well as related aspects of public health, such as masks, surface decontamination, and others. He also has knowledge in the field of immunology and vaccines. Its Hirsch index is 54.
