Creating a New World

[shijing]

Hi Oxajil --

If you stay positive, calm and objective, I think you could survive it. Maybe even do some pipe breathing? Or teach others how to do so?

Although pipe breathing is good for what we do with it now, and for relaxing yourself in general, I'm not sure that it is going to cut it in terms of the situation that Tigersoap is describing -- to survive in a life-or-death situation where you have to figure out how to stay alive in an environment you are completely unaccustomed to.

Well I guess if it is freezing, then we still should not lose hope. We should then try to see which direction we should go where the temperature is a bit better. For example the coast. The temperature there is not as low as it is more off the coast. And when we get there, we can try to settle down and try to find some food or at least water.

But what if you are nowhere near the coast? Remember, we probably wouldn't have transportation in this kind of situation other than our own bodies. Not to belabor an oft-used term, but the scenario you suggest may involve quite a bit of wishful thinking. If you are in a cold environment with few animals or edible plants around, and especially if you are with the young, old, and sick, you are probably going to need to get pretty creative in the place where you are. You may not have time to move very far, and will have to figure out shelter, warmth, and a way to get water and food locally. You may also have to brace yourself for watching some of your neighbors die if you can't figure it out quick enough.

 

[Bo]

Hi Oxajil --
But what if you are nowhere near the coast? Remember, we probably wouldn't have transportation in this kind of situation other than our own bodies. Not to belabor an oft-used term, but the scenario you suggest may involve quite a bit of wishful thinking. If you are in a cold environment with few animals or edible plants around, and especially if you are with the young, old, and sick, you are probably going to need to get pretty creative in the place where you are. You may not have time to move very far, and will have to figure out shelter, warmth, and a way to get water and food locally. You may also have to brace yourself for watching some of your neighbors die if you can't figure it out quick enough.

I think the point Oxajil was making is that people should not give up, Tigersoap's comment hit me as an emotional center taking control, it's quite understandable of course, if you can't build it doesn't mean you lose and die.

There are so many TASKS, assisting, keeping data, calming people down, perhaps even teach children lessons regarding survival , very basic lessons? the list could go on and on.

But you have to understand that even in the most extreme and bad situation, a group can survive if they stay calm and objective. There is always a way.

 

[Oxajil]

Although pipe breathing is good for what we do with it now, and for relaxing yourself in general, I'm not sure that it is going to cut it in terms of the situation that Tigersoap is describing -- to survive in a life-or-death situation where you have to figure out how to stay alive in an environment you are completely unaccustomed to.

Why not?

Isn't pipe breathing good against stress? Is it better to be all depressed and stressed all the time? Or is it better to start thinking clear again and perhaps do some pipe-breathing to help you with that, remember what it does:

Stimulating the vagus nerve, you can affect the high route from the thalamus to the cortex. When you affect the cortex in this way you produce what is called SMR, sensory motor rhythm. This is an activated pattern in the parietal cortex that is associated with the state of relaxed vigilance. In other words, it makes you very aware and very alert but at the same time you are relaxed and not stressed. Animals or humans exhibiting this SMR, show improve sleep, digestion, thinking, memory. Their brains also become much more resistant to seizures. It's also been said that this SMR prevents you from craving drugs and overeating. Well that sounds like an ideal thing to aim for.

But what if you are nowhere near the coast? Remember, we probably wouldn't have transportation in this kind of situation other than our own bodies. Not to belabor an oft-used term, but the scenario you suggest may involve quite a bit of wishful thinking. If you are in a cold environment with few animals or edible plants around, and especially if you are with the young, old, and sick, you are probably going to need to get pretty creative in the place where you are. You may not have time to move very far, and will have to figure out shelter, warmth, and a way to get water and food locally. You may also have to brace yourself for watching some of your neighbors die if you can't figure it out quick enough.

We will do our best to keep us all surviving, if we are not near the coast then we'll have to do with what we got. And if there is really nothing, then I guess the ones who can walk, the ones who are strong should be walking long roads to find something and if they're strong enough, then come back or start a society themselves.

I don't know, but I think we are thinking ahead now.

 

[ana]

Some of ya'll really need to stop and REALLY imagine yourselves in this situation. You are bringing in all kinds of contexts that simply do not apply to the given situation which, I should add, is a very real possibility. You are skipping all kinds of steps, all kinds of critical considerations that relate to SURVIVAL.

OK, Returning to earth...wich seems is one of my priority lessons




I think the first thing to do is to form groups of people according to their habilities and capabilities dedicated to specific tasks.

1.)The inmediate priority would be to take care of those who can be injured or sick.
So we need a first group of people with medical knowledge, and otthers who assist and help them.

2.)Then the priority needs would be:
Food
Watter
firewood
So a second group of capable people should pursue this.

3.)The next priority would be to look for tools, utensils wich will serve us to cook, build shelters, etc.
So a third group should pursue this.

4.)The next priority would be to create zones dedicated to various activities and needs of the group:
A specific and enabled zone for injured and sick people.
A specific and enabled zone for little childs
A specific and enabled zone for cooking
A specific zone to sleep

So here we have the fourth group.

5.)The next priority would be to form a group of people able to cook, it would be interesting to have people with with knowledge in the use of herbs and plants as medicine or feeding.

6.) Once we have people working with priority needs, we have to see how many children there are and create a group of people able to care for them physically and mentally, I think children of more than 10 years are able to help in many ways to the little ones, with the direction and motivation of adults (they are pure energy..)

7.)The same should be done with the more elderly, a group of people should take care of them physically and mentally and again children of more than ten years can realy help with their vitality.

8.)Then we can start to think in constructing the first building wich I think should be inhabited
by the injured or sick ones, the next one for childs and elders, the next for those with less physical or mental strength and so on..



From here, the evolution and survival of the group will depend on some very important factors.

-Their continued and conscious effort.
-Their capability in trust each other.
-Their capability to overcome together each and every one of the misfortunes and adversities.


Obviously they must choose a few able to take care of the needs and welfare of the group, those must surrender completely to the cause, having as unique priorities those of the group , they have to be able to really hear the voice of the group and meet their need as a whole.

 

[Tigersoap]

I think the point Oxajil was making is that people should not give up, Tigersoap's comment hit me as an emotional center taking control, it's quite understandable of course, if you can't build it doesn't mean you lose and die.

[quote author=Oxajil]We will do our best to keep us all surviving, if we are not near the coast then we'll have to do with what we got. And if there is really nothing, then I guess the ones who can walk, the ones who are strong should be walking long roads to find something and if they're strong enough, then come back or start a society themselves.[/quote]

The point I was trying to make is that we're talking about something without knowing all the parameters involved.

Is there anyone of us who actually lived through such things yet ? or who has experience in survival in difficult times ?
I'd be interested to have a point of view from such person because it might shed some light on this.

I haven't had the time to watch "the trap" yet.

We can talk as much as we want but as long as we are not faced with the situation itself, things might get totally different than what we imagined them to be.
And I do think of how to survive if society suddenly crumbles.
I try to be as objective with how I would cope with such event, so I will not say that I am convinced that with hope and the EE alone I could make it, unless as a group we find ways to solve problems in situation of stress and danger.
It's already hard as it is to sometimes be on the same page in this forum so in the middle of nowhere with 200 people ?

People have survived alone on desert island or trapped high on a mountain for sure so there is always a possibility that a group can make it if they work toward the same goal osit.

 

[clerck de bonk]

JJEEEEBUS WHAT A TOPIC!!!! And all this just over a weekend!

Any(or will work itself out over time) system will work if psychopathology is properly understood(and therefore dealt with).
IMO one of the first thing are education(knowledge) but in an easy package... how do one go about that... before groups and hierarkies start to form...

 

[Thomas Alan]

In Trap 3 they discuss Isaiah Berlins speech about Positive Freedom and Negative Freedom. Positive Freedom is an attempt to achieve freedom by moving mankind to a higher place. Sometimes violently removing those that stand in the way.
Negative Freedom consists is removing the barriers to people doing their own thing. Freedom is doing whatever strikes our fancy.
Trap doesn't deal with psychopathy. But this dichotomy emphasizes how crucial understanding psychopathy is.

Revolution to break down an old order to establish a better one is easily hijacked by psychopaths and turned to tyranny.

Negative Freedom, it seems to me, was probably invented by psychopaths. To occupy people with subjective, inane processes leading nowhere. Is personal happiness anything more than a trivial meaningless goal?

Perhaps both Positive and Negative Freedom were invented by psychopaths. They are diversions to the real virtue of growing in Being.

In our given situation the exact parameters are perhaps not as important as the knowledge we bring to the situation. To be aware the psychopathy exists and knowing how to deal with it are crucial.

I'd love to stay with this topic all day, but Alas!, :( it's off to work I go.

Mac

 

[Mountain Crown]

Another time honored principle from instinct is that without work there is no survival. Even in our advanced technological society idleness is considered abnormal.

Therefore in our scenario, I think that such people should be regarded as infirm, and treated accordingly - isolated from the group, temporarily provided for as any sick person - and plainly told that a serious attempt to change (help will be provided) is necessary for their survival as well as the group.

Vigilance for "waste not, want not" should be regarded as sacred. This would be particularly sacred when life must be taken.

I think initially everything should be simple, with the ability to adapt - food, buildings, speech, etc.

About artists - most have a degree of proficiency in craftsmanship and would be the ones to rely on for making tools, weapons for hunters, as well as simple aesthetics for psychological health.

Someone probably should chronicle everything from the start.

Children should be taught to memorize everything, as there would be no immediate guarantee for writing materials, nor the maintenance of any created.

 

[alphonse]

Read the whole thread just now (should be working really!)

To establish the community issue of the necessity of "trust" came to my mind.
Through distrust elements of greed / fear / aggression etc may be quick to surface?

How to establish trust? a big question Will watch the trap tonight.

 

[ana]

Also occurs to me that maybe we can compare the survival of these 200 people as a group, with our own body..

An example are the cells of our body:

http //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(biology)

The cell is the structural and functional unit of all known living organisms. It is the smallest unit of an organism that is classified as living, and is often called the building block of life
Each cell is at least somewhat self-contained and self-maintaining: it can take in nutrients, convert these nutrients into energy, carry out specialized functions, and reproduce as necessary. Each cell stores its own set of instructions for carrying out each of these activities.

All cells have several different abilities and all are essential to keep the body alive and healthy:

http: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(biology)

* Reproduction by cell division: (binary fission/mitosis or meiosis).

* Use of enzymes and other proteins coded for by DNA genes and made viamessenger RNA intermediates and ribosomes.​

* Metabolism, including taking in raw materials, building cell components, converting energy, molecules and releasing by-products. The functioning of a cell depends upon its ability to extract and use chemical energy stored in organic molecules. This energy is released and then used in metabolic pathways.

* Response to external and internal stimuli such as changes in temperature, pH or levels of nutrients.

* Cell contents are contained within a cell surface membrane that is made from a lipid bilayer with proteins embedded in it.

When a part of the body is abnormally functioning by illness or injury, the body send extra energy to this part untill it is healed/working properly.

No body can survive or evolve allowing some of the component parts be permanently sick, because the body can only evolve as a whole.

Quite the contrary in our world there are many sick and permanently damaged parts, and by no means are the priority of those which are supposed to exercise as the brain or energy distributor.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Tools would be essential. A simple shelter large enough to build a strong fire to be used as a workshop should be considered when possible.

Knives and crushing implements seems to be of top priority.

Simple ideas for providing clothing would be an immediate concern, especially footwear.

Anyone with knowledge of Native American culture would be extremely helpful.

About Buddy's suggestion re nomadic lifestyle - the larger the numbers, the more difficult. 200 people seems pretty large for this to be practical.

 

[slowone]

In Trap 3 they discuss Isaiah Berlins speech about Positive Freedom and Negative Freedom. Positive Freedom is an attempt to achieve freedom by moving mankind to a higher place. Sometimes violently removing those that stand in the way.
Negative Freedom consists is removing the barriers to people doing their own thing. Freedom is doing whatever strikes our fancy.
Trap doesn't deal with psychopathy. But this dichotomy emphasizes how crucial understanding psychopathy is.

Revolution to break down an old order to establish a better one is easily hijacked by psychopaths and turned to tyranny.

Negative Freedom, it seems to me, was probably invented by psychopaths. To occupy people with subjective, inane processes leading nowhere. Is personal happiness anything more than a trivial meaningless goal?

Perhaps both Positive and Negative Freedom were invented by psychopaths. They are diversions to the real virtue of growing in Being.

In our given situation the exact parameters are perhaps not as important as the knowledge we bring to the situation. To be aware the psychopathy exists and knowing how to deal with it are crucial.

I'd love to stay with this topic all day, but Alas!, :( it's off to work I go.

Mac

Been reading the whole thread and I keep coming back to the problem of defending/protecting the group.

I think it is Illion in 'Darkness over Tibet' who describes his spiritual journey as a battle against the STS forces he meets.

Lets say as a group that we have built/found shelter, found food and water , tended the sick, scouted the area and confirmed this is where we are going to stay for the immediate future.

Then we may have psychopaths in the group or near the group from other survivors not yet identified but in the local area. Presuming there are people willing to kill animals for food they would also be willing to kill animals who predate on the group, but what about other humans.

I know other people on the thread have brought this up but we don't seem to be too sure. Move the whole group away and leave the psychpaths and hope they don't find us? Kill them?

Or if we were truly STO would they find it as hard to orientate to STS in an STO environment as evolving STO's do in an STS environment?

I can't unravel this myself. Would true STO allow them to be STS not change them, but choose to not interact or have anything to do with them ?

I think we would need to agree on a course/courses of action to deal with attack/psychopathy fairly quickly after we have established our immediate needs for survival.

 

[theos]

200 people is a large group. I would think that initially the group would be splintered off into smaller family groups, groups based on perceived similarities such as race, sex or age. How does one get the people to come together and form the common goal of survival? First, as I'm imagining this scenario, handle the most pressing needs of the people around you such as injuries and shock. Take inventory: who is here, what tools do we have, what skills do we have? Go around to other smaller groups, establish communication and offer assistance. Pull the smaller groups together then assign tasks.

 

[Peam]

My thinking keeps returning to the various personallity traits of the group. If we imagine that these 200 people are a general cross section of humanity, some could be pathological, some burglars and thieves, there could even be a paedophile etc. If any of these have a weapon or other things of survival value they may be reluctant to give them up for the good of the group, or keep them hidden, or even use them as leverage to gain advantage and preferential treatment or status. Like “ok I’ve got the lighter and I’m not giving it up, you lot do the work while I light the fire and then just lay here resting.”

You might get people with leadership experience, but pathological or ponerized, stepping up to take charge straight away. But even if this attempt to take charge and give the orders are recognised and mitigated, there could still be small factions forming and plotting to take over at a future time.

 

[treesparrow]

Going back to the very basic needs, say, getting a fire started, would this be so easily achieved? If a member of the group was a smoker and had a lighter or matches and dry wood was available, then, all well and good. But if not what then? If another member wore glasses they could to used to focus sun rays on dry tinder to get a fire going. Again, assuming both dry tinder and sufficient sunshine were available. But if not, what then? If the group had a member with some knowledge of survivalist techniques and knew how to rub some sticks together to create fire, again, all well and good. But if not what then? I guess what I'm trying to point out is that even the most (seemingly) simple sort of task may not be so easy to carry out. Sorry if I'm beginning to be a bit of a wet blanket here - I'll stop.