Darwin's Black Box - Michael J. Behe and Intelligent Design

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
I think that there is a lot of validity to "evolutionary psychology" only maybe it is more about "engineered" psychology. Cs stated it quite clearly at one point:

10 July 1999:

Q: (L) Okay, this anthropologist, Michael Harner, was doing some field work, and it says here that Harner went to the Peruvian Amazon to study the culture of the Conibo Indians. After a year or so he had made little headway in understanding their religious system, when the Conibo told him 'if he really wanted to learn, he had to drink ahayahuasca. Harner accepted, not without fear because the people had warned him that the experience was terrifying. The following evening, under the strict supervision of his indigenous friends, he drank the equivalent of a third of a bottle. After several minutes he found himself flying into a world of true hallucinations. After arriving in a celestial cavern where a supernatural carnival of demons was in full swing, he saw two strange boats floating through the air that combined to form a huge dragon headed prow not unlike that of a Viking ship. On the deck he could make out large numbers of people with the heads of bluejays and the bodies of humans, not unlike the bird-headed gods of ancient Egyptian tomb paintings. After multiple episodes, which would be too long to describe here, Harner became convinced that he was dying. He tried calling out to his Conibo friends for an antidote without managing to pronounce a word. Then he saw that his visions emanated from giant reptilian creatures that resided at the lowest depths of his brain. These creatures began projecting scenes in front of his eyes while informing him that this information was reserved for the dying and the dead. 'First, they showed me the planet Earth as it was aeons ago before there was any life on it. I saw an ocean, barren land, and a bright blue sky. Then black specks dropped from the sky by the hundreds and landed in front of me on the barren landscape. I could see that the specks were actually large, shiny black creatures with stubby pterodactyl-like wings and huge whale-like bodies. They explained to me in a kind of thought language, that they were fleeing from something from out in space. They had come to the planet earth to escape their enemy. The creatures then showed me how they had created life on the planet in order to hide within the multitudinour forms, and thus disguise their presence. Before me, the magnificence of plant and animal creation and speciation and hundreds of millions of years of activity, took place on a scale and with a vividness impossible to describe. I learned that dragon-like creatures were thus inside all forms of life, including man.' At this point in his account, Harner writes in a footnote at the bottom of the page: 'in retrospect, one could say that they were almost like DNA, although at that time, in 1961, I knew nothing of DNA.' So, I would like to know what was the source and nature of these nearly universal visions that occurs in these shamanistic practices; the various creatures including serpents and bird-headed dudes, and so forth? What is the source of these hallucinations?
A: Be more specific.
Q: (L) How can I be more specific? (C) In these chemically induced trances, why is there the common experience of seeing these bird-headed or serpent-like creatures?
A: While you have physicality, some part of you will maintain the connection to its roots.
Q: (L) Are you saying that all these people who say that human beings have reptilian genetics, are telling the truth? Do we have reptilian genetics?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Do we also have bird genetics?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) And that is our physical connection or basis?
A: Yes, as third density bioengineered beings, you lead the smorgasbord parade of that which surrounds you in the physical realm.
Q: (A) So, we are 3rd density bioengineered beings.


So it seems pretty clear that studying our machine in some detail, including so-called "evolutionary psychology" is certainly not a waste of time. It's not the whole picture, but it seems rather obvious that a lot of people are ruled by the machine and not by the soul. And it also seems pretty apparent that there is most definitely a sort of struggle that goes on within many humans: the wolf and the dog, if you will. The Cs have said that the battle is THROUGH human beings. And obviously, all of our roots are not STS, even in physical terms. So some parts of our machine are helpful, and other parts are not.
 

JEEP

The Living Force
Compelling discussion. Imagine my surprise when I encountered a synchronicity that relates to this topic. I was formulating a reply to a city councilman who is bravely trying to advance the reduction of fluoride in city water (elimination not a reachable goal). I seagued into 5G and quoted scientific findings re its weaponized frequencies and effect on human skin/sweat glands. Which caused me to write, "What a brave new world we're living in - the Scientific Dictatorship."

Subsequently, I went looking for the exact quote and stumbled upon this piece written by Phillip D. Collins at bibliotecapleyades.net/ entitled, The Ascendancy of The Scientific Dictatorship. It begins w/ Part One - Illuminating the Occult Origin of Darwinism

The word Darwinism jumped right out at me as I had been following this thread and just wasn't expecting to run into it like that. Part One does have the whole Huxley quote:

“The older dictators fell because they could never supply their subjects with enough bread, enough circuses, enough miracles, and mysteries. Under a scientific dictatorship, education will really work with the result that most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution. There seems to be no good reason why a thoroughly scientific dictatorship should ever be overthrown.”

This, I think, does accurately describe the reality that has been brought about w/ Darwinism being the prime driver as this thread is showing. We've been led to believe that one simply cannot arque w/ science! Think global warming and "the science is settled" regarding it.

I know scientific dictatorship is not a new subject here; don't know about Phillip D. Collins. Here's his background:

Phillip D. Collins acted as the editor for The Hidden Face of Terrorism. He has also written articles for Paranoia Magazine, MKzine, News With Views, B.I.P.E.D.: The Official Website of Darwinian Dissent and Conspiracy Archive. He has an Associate of Arts and Science. Currently, he is studying for a bachelor's degree in Communications at Wright State University. During the course of his seven-year college career, Phillip has studied philosophy, religion, and classic literature. He also co-authored the book, The Ascendancy of the Scientific Dictatorship - An Examination of Epistemic Autocracy, From the 19th to the 21st Century.
What he's written in this piece is too lengthy to quote and I really don't know which parts might be the most relevant to pick out. I'll just provide the link if anyone wishes to read it:
The Ascendancy of The Scientific Dictatorship

It is ironic that the information becoming known now can serve to dismantle this very false reality that's been constructed using 'science'. Obviously, if you can get people to be OK w/ putting rat poison in the drinking water by claiming it promotes good dental health, is it really so surprising at the state of the planet as it stands today.
 

genero81

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Seeing science in a different light began with Collingwood for me. So many pieces coming together! The majority of people out there; "forever ignorant and body centric" Once you see the 'man behind the curtain,' you can't un-see him. What a mind job! The programming complete- (mind viruses installed) the 'invasion' of nihilistic ideologies going viral as social contagions. We watch with jaws dropped in disbelief at the level of craziness that's ensuing. But I sense momentum on our part...
 

Windmill knight

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Yesterday we watched this talk by David Berlinski:


The guy is very clever and hilarious! He gave an overview of his book 'The Devil's Dellusion', and although he didn't go too deep into his arguments, one thing he mentioned that I thought interesting, and that I think needs to be mentioned more, is that even neo-darwinian biologists admit that nobody really understands how you go from the DNA to the complexity of the fully functional organism.

Indeed, AFAIK, they know how certain genes are read to create proteins, but how are those proteins organized into cells which are then turned to organs, systems, etc., all with very definite shapes and proportions and functions, and which are perfectly coordinated with other systems and apparatuses as a whole in a delicate state of homeostasis? (This is where Rupert Sheldrake's theory of morphogenetic field comes into play, I believe.) It seems that in their arrogance, neo-darwinians are leaving a lot outside of the picture - and again, they pretend that because their theory could plaussibly explain some minor evolutionary changes, then there's no more mystery to biology! The science is settled. It's preposterous to say that random mutations and natural selection explain all that; it's like saying that rain, snow, hurricanes and geomagnetic storms are all explained by the god of weather or the interaction of the four elements. Problem solved!
 

herondancer

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
The guy is very clever and hilarious! He gave an overview of his book 'The Devil's Dellusion', and although he didn't go too deep into his arguments, one thing he mentioned that I thought interesting, and that I think needs to be mentioned more, is that even neo-darwinian biologists admit that nobody really understands how you go from the DNA to the complexity of the fully functional organism.
It's a great watch, especially if you like your science delivered with a big side serving of snark. :evil:

One of the things that impressed me the most was how he emphasized the lack of humility in the neodarwinist camp, and at the same time that "Science" is unconsciously feeling a great unease as they realize the mysteries they are trying to explain are far greater than they ever thought. Yet by procribing what can be admitted as "valid scientific questions", they have cut themselves off from advancement on those mysteries.

So to Berlinski , even though he doesn't support ID, he feels it's a worthy line of inquiry. So are psychic phenomena, ufos and all the other third-rail subjects of current science.
 

Approaching Infinity

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Just a heads up that Perry Marshall recommended the following book in his latest newsletter. He gave it an absolutely glowing review, which begins:

Some months ago a package arrived containing a very large book, “COSMOSAPIENS” by John Hands. It was from the publisher. I had no idea why someone decided to send it to me.

The book itself seemed over-ambitious - a 700 page tome purporting to canvass the entire subject of life on earth - where it’s coming from and where it’s going.

Sounds almost outrageous to suggest you could compress all that into one book.

I couldn’t help but notice that it also devoted about 100 pages to the question of evolution.

Well, I took the book with me on the trip and eventually John Hands won me over. I was very impressed.

http://amzn.to/2aRLHag

This is the sort of book that only comes out once every 10 or 20 years, and there are very, very few people who can write a book such as this.
 

Beorn

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Last night I watched an interesting talk by Michael Clarage about the interstellar medium. He connects the life of cells with the life of the universe.

"Stars are supposedly dead, galaxies are supposedly dead, the whole universe is supposedly dead and only you and I are alive. Only you and I. The profoundness of this absurdity needs to be re-examined. Astrophysics will be stuck until it can acknowledge the objects it studies are alive. Just like you and me and our little cells."

He talks about how he was required to write essays proving that it was impossible for stars to ever touch each other. Now we have new images showing filaments connecting the stars together. These filaments seem to contain hydrocarbons, sugars and amino acids, among other things.

He says that modern cosmology took an unfortunate turn when it denied function or purpose in the larger cosmos. Form follows function, so why don't astrophysicists recognize this principle?

Anyway, it's an interesting talk about the intelligence of planets, stars and the universe, that begins just after the 4 minute mark.

 

hlat

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I found a brief lecture Behe gave a few years ago - a capsule introduction into DBB.
Great intro to the material, and short too.

Behe also has a second book, after DBB entitled "The Edge of Evolution". I finished it yesterday and it is a definite must read follow-upper!
I started on this, because it's a free audiobook through my library. https://www.hoopladigital.com/title/10755466

One of the main points that I'm getting is that "evolution" through random mutation and natural selection is more like devolution and entropy, eg e coli losing molecular machinery after 30,000 generations. To me, that sounds like living things are made precisely, and then fall apart over successive generations if left only to chance.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Great intro to the material, and short too.


I started on this, because it's a free audiobook through my library. https://www.hoopladigital.com/title/10755466

One of the main points that I'm getting is that "evolution" through random mutation and natural selection is more like devolution and entropy, eg e coli losing molecular machinery after 30,000 generations. To me, that sounds like living things are made precisely, and then fall apart over successive generations if left only to chance.
Yes, that seems to be the case. And by now, I've read books by a few other experts in the field and all come to the same conclusion when they follow the evidence.

And that, of course, gives a whole lot of credibility for the Cs cosmology and explanation for how we came to be here and how we were engineered. It also makes it pretty clear that without some further input from higher densities, the human race is likely to go extinct. It sure acts like it is in the process of doing that now.
 

msante

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
I finished reading the book a couple of days ago and I just want to mention (as others have said) that it is a highly recommended reading material. Together with Evolution 2.0 they give a pretty extensive idea of how impossible it is for randomness to be a creative force in the universe. In fact after reading them it seems evident that randomness itself is a destructive and entropic force. On the other hand, the extraordinary order and complexity underlying organic life seems to be the unquestionable hallmark of a descumunal and astonishing intelligence. What can we say about this intelligence? Well, neither of the two books seem to contribute much in this sense, but based on all the material that has been shared here for decades, one could theorize that the beings who inhabit the multiple densities and dimensions of this vast universe are part of this intelligence at the same time that they are its "executors" (that is, it is as if we were part of the artisan's mind at the same time as we are part of his hands) and participate to varying degrees in its performance.

There is also an idea that has been going around in my mind for a long time, and that reading these books has helped to clarify a little. I am an analyst and computer programmer, and one of the basic things one learns in this discipline is that there is a distinction between the code of a program (the instructions that the program must execute) and the data (the information on which the code operates). It is surprising and inspiring to see how in the universe (in nature) this distinction is not so clear, code and data seem to be intermingled and even at times seem to be the same thing, as an inseparable whole. I think that disciplines such as Artificial Intelligence, Evolutionary Computing and others, will be able to make enormous progress as human beings better understand this relationship. Nevertheless I have the impression that there is much more here to understand.

Another idea that these books have helped to clarify (at least a little) is the idea of "purpose". The purpose seems to be the center of gravity that gives order and meaning to this intelligence. And this is something that can be used as a starting point for reflection, because this primary axiom can be applied at both the macro level (the great purpose in the Universe) and the micro level (our personal purposes, our life goals). Perhaps as these purposes are better delineated and better understood in our life, our chances of achieving them, that is, of advancing and evolving, improve.

Well, I just wanted to comment on my impressions of this book and eventually encourage those who have not yet read it to read it.
 

Windmill knight

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Another idea that these books have helped to clarify (at least a little) is the idea of "purpose". The purpose seems to be the center of gravity that gives order and meaning to this intelligence.
I was thinking about purpose in the context of this discussion, specifically about how one of Aquinas' arguments for the 'proof of God', expanding on Aristotle's, was that 'natural bodies' seek to achieve the best result, even when lacking knowledge, which indicates direction from a higher intelligence (which of course they identify as God or the Un-moved Mover, but now we know there may be many different types and levels of intelligence higher than ours). In their words:

III. 'We must also consider in which sense the nature of the universe contains the good or supreme good; whether as something separate and independent, or as the orderly arrangement of its parts. Probably in both senses, as an army does; for the efficiency of the army consists partly in the order and partly in the general; but chiefly in the latter...all things, both fishes and birds and plants, are ordered together in some way...everything is ordered together in one way. (Aristotle, Metaphysics 1075a).

Cf. Aquinas, Summa Theologica I,2,3: 'We see things which lack knowledge, such as natural bodies, acting for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always in the same way, so as to achieve the best result. Hence it is plain that they do achieve their ends not fortuitously, but designedly. Now whatever lacks knowledge cannot move towards an end unless it be directed by some being endowed with intelligence…Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end, and this being we call God.' [Aquinas' 'Fifth Way'].
The point is that even ancient philosophers, without knowledge of DNA, evolution or molecular biology, had that same intuition, that I suspect most normal people have, that life cannot have initiated and cannot continue by mere accident. To fully accept neodarwinism would be to say that it is false that living creatures have any purpose (and they obviously do, otherwise why do they struggle so hard to stay alive and perpetuate the species?), that they just appear to have one, but in reality it is just molecules clashing randomnly with each others like billiard balls, creating the illusion of purpose. Furthermore, we ourselves would only appear to care about anything, even about this debate, cause in reality we are all just bags of clashing billiard balls. I wonder if Dawkins and his pals would be happy to declare that they shouldn't be taken seriously, since they don't really want to reach the truth of the matter (nor of anything else), since they just appear to be making sense? :lol:
 

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
There is also an idea that has been going around in my mind for a long time, and that reading these books has helped to clarify a little. I am an analyst and computer programmer, and one of the basic things one learns in this discipline is that there is a distinction between the code of a program (the instructions that the program must execute) and the data (the information on which the code operates). It is surprising and inspiring to see how in the universe (in nature) this distinction is not so clear, code and data seem to be intermingled and even at times seem to be the same thing, as an inseparable whole.
Yes, I had similar thoughts. I'm currently reading James Shapiro's "Evolution - a view from the 21st century"; the book goes into much more detail about the absolutely stunning "information processing systems" in our body. Hardware, data, file system, operating system, programs, interfaces and even the developer/coder - all kind of fused together. And it makes sense if this comes from a realm where information reigns and the boundaries between matter and consciousness are fluid. If that's the work of 4D designers, no wonder the Cs said that their technological knowledge is light years ahead of everything we know!

Although I'm still at the beginning, I find Shapiro's book fascinating. It's a bit technical though and I must admit that most of the biochemistry goes over my head. Perhaps those with more knowledge about the science can get more out of it. But Shapiro offers a glimpse into the absolutely stunning world of DNA, the ridiculously complex systems that regulate genetic expression and so on.

And yes, there seems to be a connection between our DNA and our consciousness. Consider this:

Q: (Approaching Infinity) Are there any more specific practical exercises we can do to connect chakras?

A: [letters come very rapidly] Talking and working out issues is the way to train the machine. But more than that, it is necessary to master the self and that requires suffering which turns on DNA.
Writes Shapiro about transposition, the same principle explained in Evolution 2.0:

...this RNA-targeted chromatin modifying/epigenetic regulation plays a critical role in the control of genome restructuring in response to episodes of cell stress or genome shock. Barbara McClintock used this phrase in speaking to explain a challenge or stress event that provoked a cell to activate the molecular systems that restructure genomes.
So the cell can kind of reprogram its genome under stress/shocks... But we know that our psychological states also have physical representations. It's a bit of a stretch, but this suggests that how we perceive the world can indeed have effects on our genetic programming! And perhaps there are "windows of reprogramming" that occur during shocks? Maybe how we react to stress and turmoil has a big impact on our "evolution"?
 

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
There's an interesting thing about this materialist mindset possessed by Darwinism. Watch this brief exchange where someone in the audience asked the atheist a brilliant question: What would you accept as evidence for God? It should start automatically at 10:00:


Isn't it fascinating how he squirms and weasels? I'm sure what he really wanted to answer but couldn't (because he knew that's too dumb) was that the only evidence he'd accept would be some God descending from the sky or some repeatable miracle or some nonsense like that. In other words: something strictly materialistic.

Those possessed by materialism only accept materialistic, physical things. They cannot understand that we can access and discern the spiritual realm through observation and reasoning. It's a subtle art that requires paying strict attention to reality and then applying knowledge to see the unseen. And sometimes reality just screams at you, like if you look at what happens in our bodies on a molecular level - it screams "higher intelligence", loud and clear! But no, the materialists wanna see proof, and entrenched and in love with the physical as they are, they only accept "physical miracles".

Same with psychic phenomena - we have plenty of evidence from experiments, but it's statistical in nature. It's again a subtle discernment of higher realms. They won't accept that either.

Ironically, perhaps those who are "ultra-spiritual" and seek phenomena, dabbling with spirits and the like, kind of show a similar materialistic worldview - it's all about "manifesting" those things concretely, physically or semi-physically, the closer to physical reality the better. They may "believe in spirits", but again, they seek them as manifestations in the physical realm when it's really about the subtle art of discerning higher realities. And what are the entities who are most willing to enter our physical world? Those who are in love with it, i.e. STS.

So maybe there is some kind of weird parallel between materialist atheists and some of those who consider themselves oh-so spiritual: an inability or unwillingness to perceive anything truly "higher" by noticing how our reality flows from higher realms, based on study, observation, experience and reflection, all of which require work and are subtle and tedious and unspectacular in their nature. Pretty weird. FWIW
 

John G

The Living Force
So maybe there is some kind of weird parallel between materialist atheists and some of those who consider themselves oh-so spiritual: an inability or unwillingness to perceive anything truly "higher" by noticing how our reality flows from higher realms, based on study, observation, experience and reflection, all of which require work and are subtle and tedious and unspectacular in their nature. Pretty weird. FWIW
The funny thing is that the view of higher realms from the study of philosophy/science and comparative mythology/history (including via the more modern channeling) is much more awe inspiring than anything the materialist limited research or spiritualist sensory experience can come up with. Even fictional worlds pale in comparison to what reality really is (and that includes the fictional worlds of mainstream religions). The studying can be tedious but the knowledge is anything but.
 
Top Bottom