David Bowie Dead at 69

[Palinurus]

This is also worth reading: http://rebeccahains.com/2016/01/11/reconciling-david-bowies-genius-with-rape/

This article is now carried on SOTT: http://www.sott.net/article/310212-Professor-weighs-in-on-David-Bowies-statutory-rape-allegations

The SOTT comment is worth to be repeated here:

Comment: Just because someone made well-respected art does not mean their sexual predation towards young girls should be overlooked or excused, even if it was early in their career, and especially when said artist never took responsibility for their actions.

Although I apparently made the impression to dismiss these allegations, I quite agree with this statement.

 

[PhoenixToEmber]

This is also worth reading: http://rebeccahains.com/2016/01/11/reconciling-david-bowies-genius-with-rape/

This article is now carried on SOTT: http://www.sott.net/article/310212-Professor-weighs-in-on-David-Bowies-statutory-rape-allegations

The SOTT comment is worth to be repeated here:

Comment: Just because someone made well-respected art does not mean their sexual predation towards young girls should be overlooked or excused, even if it was early in their career, and especially when said artist never took responsibility for their actions.

Although I apparently made the impression to dismiss these allegations, I quite agree with this statement.

I'm the one who put it there and made the comment. :P

 

[caballero reyes]

David Bowie never interested me until I saw "Velvet Goldmine", movie about glam style.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFgWApcLZFY

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Came across this link last night and thought I should share it here: http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/01/11/david-bowie-rape-accusations-sexual-assault/

I was somewhat familiar with Bowie, but never delved into his work enough to call myself a fan. In light of this article, though, is he really someone worth idolizing? Thoughts?

Personally, I try to avoid idolizing ANY popular musician (or writer, or actor, or artist). Call me out if I'm stereotyping here, but in my experience famous musicians tend to be slobs, somewhat to totally perverted, and hedonistic often to the point of self-destruction. Being a musician myself and knowing a lot of non-famous musicians, I'd say that's probably true of many non-famous musicians, too. OK, maybe I'm painting with a wide brush, but my point is just that being a great musician or artist doesn't have much bearing if any on the person's character. They become 'idols' solely based on their talent/popularity, often even in spite of their public actions.

I'm always reminded about what Gurdjieff said about artists:

Various writers, actors, musicians, artists, and politicians, for instance, are almost without exception sick people. And what are they suffering from? First of all from an extraordinary opinion of themselves, then from requirements, and then from considering, that is, being ready and prepared beforehand to take offense at lack of understanding and lack of appreciation.
...
A man who can be a good obyvatel is much more helpful from the point of view of the way than a 'tramp' who thinks himself much higher than an obyvatel. I call 'tramps' all the so-called 'intelligentsia'— artists, poets, any kind of 'bohemian' in general, who despises the obyvatel and who at the same time would be unable to exist without him.

There are always exceptions. Some musicians I've known are really beautiful people, and some perhaps redeem themselves. Beethoven was a total jerk, but mellowed out much later in life. John Lennon, too.

 

[striveforselflessness]

There are always exceptions. Some musicians I've known are really beautiful people, and some perhaps redeem themselves. Beethoven was a total jerk, but mellowed out much later in life. John Lennon, too.

That may be. When I heard John Lennon's "Jealous Guy," I figured maybe he at least realized that he hadn't been so hot.

But that Lennon was violent towards his first wife, apparently tried to make his friends seduce her (who does that?), could not tolerate his kid's laughter, was strangely/rigidly jealous of his former bandmate's success ("all you did was Yesterday"), and was an alcoholic who insulted people to the point of making them cry, all of that makes me think his insecurities got the better of him to an extent difficult for others to reach (made worse for being so famous).

Bowie was not violent, as far as I have known, though under the influence he could say violent/racist things at some point in his life (though this he at least took responsibility for). I respect him for coming out in public about his bisexuality, being true to himself in that way, and not taking the bait to start a drama out of it. I respect him for often being a lucid/reasonable voice outside of his music.

Thanks for the quote, it's a good reminder not to idolize and offhandedly identify with the famous, which seems natural to do.

 

[IronFloyd]

Interesting opinions!. Well, I think justly the last Bowie video, "Blackstar", reflects some things that we spoken here, or rather, speculated about Bowie, because nothing is proven (on internet already saying that Bowie was an iluminatti, etc). And if were truth about the rituals, in the video the pain is evident, and perhaps he is showing how terrible are the consequences of that. Maybe it's a heartbreaking way to say this isn't a good thing. Also I see a "black sun" causing seizures, and people dominated in their bodies and minds by something. I think there is a lot of information, which is not very common in artists who generally their lyrics are full of stupid things. Moreover, it's really admirable to see an artist that so honestly representing and anticipating his own death, and there isn't the tipical "rock star" attitude. The video is disturbing and shocking, yes, it's true, but, what a way to leave the ego behind!, appearing like a corpse, and no matter how cool, nice or pretty he looks... it's heartrending and honest (after all, when we read "The Wave" or the "Teachings of don Juan", we don't read just pleasant things). I'll take that from Bowie and I appreciate that great and honest art, but also it seems a very good excercise to remember that he was just a human being, and not a figure to idealize or idolize. I want to know how this continue on 5D, because don Juan Matus said that the "famous" had "problems" with their conscience when they die. I always wanted to know more about it, anyway. Rest in peace Bowie.

 

[striveforselflessness]

Also I see a "black sun" causing seizures, and people dominated in their bodies and minds by something. I think there is a lot of information, which is not very common in artists who generally their lyrics are full of stupid things. Moreover, it's really admirable to see an artist that so honestly representing and anticipating his own death, and there isn't the tipical "rock star" attitude. The video is disturbing and shocking, yes, it's true, but, what a way to leave the ego behind!, appearing like a corpse, and no matter how cool, nice or pretty he looks... it's heartrending and honest (after all, when we read "The Wave" or the "Teachings of don Juan", we don't read just pleasant things). I'll take that from Bowie and I appreciate that great and honest art, but also it seems a very good excercise to remember that he was just a human being, and not a figure to idealize or idolize.

Thanks, I think you're spot on. And maybe it is not about ritual after all, except as it relates, incidentally enough, to the intelligentsia, or to the movers and shakers of art, and those following. The lyrics, "I'm not a pop star, marvel star, gangsta, etc" do make me think of that, and since Bowie happens to be in this role by virtue of being an artist, it could be his way of saying he's his own person.

His quote gave me the idea that he 'likes' the visual and atmosphere of what is depicted, but it probably doesn't apply.

 

[Deleted member 11729]

Bowie definitely left legacy and influence on humanity in positive creative way which is bigger than anything that is here in this topic observed, and at the end of the day, what might or might not even be objective fact. His work and his life leaded many of us here, inspired many of us to be free, truth loving, creative, so there must be something good about hm, and doing this black and white kind of search for imperfection in a life of a man who deliberately exposed his imperfection to the humanity, in order to publicly fight with his demons to become a better man, is not productive at all .... we can't really put a sticker on him on a way, let me paraphrase some of the speculation here: "he was famous it must be because he was psychopath" ... hey common ... he was famous because he was able to touch so many various minds and hearts, that we can even think on him as a perfect example of human "machine" who was just experimenting whole his life with all this personalities that where living within him, on his own specific way, through music and visual art ... I think it will be much constructive and useful for the universe, to focus on his work, that was major reason for his life on earth, as from there we can learn a lot about things that were occupying not just him, but also Gurdjieff, Tesla and many other mans that we tend to glorify, but who also had a dark side of their minds ...

Feels sad to see how it is difficult for one man to leave any knowledge that is out of a any box, without judgmental intentions ...

Speaking about Art, also, it is sad how there is so little understanding what Art is, and where is a difference between craft and truly a person who is gifted Artist of life ... and who is willing to take all the punches from ignorant masses, in order for humanity to create ... just to mention that Tesla in his scientific work was always mentioning how for him the biggest inspiration to be bale to come to his conclusion is the one that is coming from one Artist ... everything, from science to art, is twisted and derogated in this world ... so we can't really do in Art that sharp labeling: "all Art is narcissism and ego crap"

there is so much around us that is not possible to "speak" about, that it is really a pity effort to speculate about things we don't know, when D.B. left so many things that we can examine and learn from, without intention to glorify him as a person, without intention to put a good or bad sticker on him, but to see him as a messenger of some bigger reality ...

Let me quote Tesla about the "reality" of life - it is not in overspeculating and over thinking and over reading and over calculating ... it is a sum of all the influences that man can absorb, and the man ability to understand and connect that influences with higher centers of his being - "Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality." - Nikola Tesla

I hope we can all learn something bigger from extraordinary individuals like Bowie.

And I think there is nothing wrong to worship and respect high quality individuals who might or might not be mega stars, as mega popularity is just one of the consequences of someone work in certain time ... I am sure that D.B. will not be popular at all if he will be one emerging artist of today ... today, as pointed so many times here, we lost the real Heroes, what is a big loss for humanity ...

 

[aragorn]

To be honest, I've never liked David Bowie's music or saw anything exceptional in him. As I was younger, since everyone was fussing about him, I tried to give his music a chance by listening through a couple of his records. But I never "got it", whatever others thought was so brilliant. His music appeared to me as sophisticated noise, nothing else.

 

[placematt]

I've also personally never connected to Bowies music. On an interesting note though and to show how widespread his fame is. Here in Western Australia we've had a state of emergency with bush fires. was on the news every night, first thing, hour long specials and everything. The day bowie croaked, bushfire is no longer important and Bowie's life story is everywhere. I had to have a chuckle about the priorities. :)

Either way, its amazing that one person can evoke so much in people. I guess we all have our own heroes in todays world.

 

[loreta]

Interesting opinions!. Well, I think justly the last Bowie video, "Blackstar", reflects some things that we spoken here, or rather, speculated about Bowie, because nothing is proven (on internet already saying that Bowie was an iluminatti, etc). And if were truth about the rituals, in the video the pain is evident, and perhaps he is showing how terrible are the consequences of that. Maybe it's a heartbreaking way to say this isn't a good thing. Also I see a "black sun" causing seizures, and people dominated in their bodies and minds by something. I think there is a lot of information, which is not very common in artists who generally their lyrics are full of stupid things. Moreover, it's really admirable to see an artist that so honestly representing and anticipating his own death, and there isn't the tipical "rock star" attitude. The video is disturbing and shocking, yes, it's true, but, what a way to leave the ego behind!, appearing like a corpse, and no matter how cool, nice or pretty he looks... it's heartrending and honest (after all, when we read "The Wave" or the "Teachings of don Juan", we don't read just pleasant things). I'll take that from Bowie and I appreciate that great and honest art, but also it seems a very good excercise to remember that he was just a human being, and not a figure to idealize or idolize. I want to know how this continue on 5D, because don Juan Matus said that the "famous" had "problems" with their conscience when they die. I always wanted to know more about it, anyway. Rest in peace Bowie.

You are right. This video is disturbing because we see sufferance, pain, darkness, bodies that suffer, that are under a trance. possessed. And Bowie so strange, so old and sick. He is maybe telling something about what it is to die. Maybe he is telling us how difficult is to be release from our human condition. Anyway, it is better no idealize artists. I respect them very much because they express very often the dark side of things. And because of their dark sides they can create. I don't like stars, stars are part of a big business.

When I was young I idealized Proust. Then one day I read something very ugly about him, so ugly and sick. So writers, good ones, genius, are sick, mentally. But who is entirely sane? So one thing is the masterpiece that we listen or read o see, other thing is who did this masterpiece.

By the way, they are saying, in some blogs, that this video is a sort of black mass.

 

[Siberia]

To be honest, I've never liked David Bowie's music or saw anything exceptional in him. As I was younger, since everyone was fussing about him, I tried to give his music a chance by listening through a couple of his records. But I never "got it", whatever others thought was so brilliant. His music appeared to me as sophisticated noise, nothing else.

My thoughts exactly, Aragorn.

 

[luke wilson]

To be honest, I've never liked David Bowie's music or saw anything exceptional in him. As I was younger, since everyone was fussing about him, I tried to give his music a chance by listening through a couple of his records. But I never "got it", whatever others thought was so brilliant. His music appeared to me as sophisticated noise, nothing else.

My thoughts exactly, Aragorn.

I thought David Bowie was part of a famous band... Cant say I've heard any of his songs... Looks like he's super famous. RIP. Radio said he lived the rock n roll lifestyle...

 

[beherenow]

Although i did like some of his songs before i started seeing the true corruption of the media, my feeling about him and his music was, and is, this..too much fashion, not enough substance.

There are some exceptions to this "rule", but i think that anyone who gets to be that famous is most likely serving the agenda of the PTSB ( the powers that shouldn't be ) in some way, weather they know it or not. In Dave's case it was two things, the promotion of gender confusion, which is a commonly used tool to create tension between conservative and progressive types, and the fashion industry's need for constant "change"....i.e. blatant consumerism, you know, throw out those Beatle boots and get hip to whats happening now, and buy more stuff that will be discarded before its wore out.

I feel he was a talented guy, but i agree with Aragorn, he never hit me as being brilliant. I believe the idea of him being brilliant is due to a non-critical thinking public that can't separate image and substance.

The gatekeepers know that talent is a requirement for anyone they choose to use because the public is, most of the time, capable of spotting a real hack. The gatekeepers job is mostly about controlling the sub-conscience "cues" and all things not in plain sight, IMO.

PS, Luke, please don't take the the wrong way, but I don't understand why, when you admit to never having heard any of his songs, you would quote Aragorn's honest musical opinion...or even comment at all, for that matter. It's giving me a bit of confusion as most of your posts usually add to the conversation at hand.

Thanks, Dave

 

[Gary]

OK, maybe I'm painting with a wide brush, but my point is just that being a great musician or artist doesn't have much bearing if any on the person's character. They become 'idols' solely based on their talent/popularity, often even in spite of their public actions.

I don't think it has any bearing either. But these 'idols', especially those around nowadays (many with hardly any real musical talent), have been very well promoted. It is interesting what the Cs have said about music, and particularly the 1970's when Bowie and others became global 'superstars'.

Session 13 June 2015:

Q: (Galatea) So, if people like anarchy music about hating the government and law, then they're gonna stir up some trouble?

(L) I dunno. Maybe they would track somebody like that and think that they could turn that person to their own uses.

(Perceval) They said there are some types of music that are listened to by certain types of people... Certain types of emo music or whatever that certain types of young people listen to, like outsiders or loners and that kind of thing, and those people could be tracked as candidates for "use"...

A: The 70's were the time of development of such concepts and technologies. The 80's were the period when implementation became more widespread. At present 90 percent of broadcast music has corrupting elements.

Q: (Pierre) So we have to listen to old music. Music from before the 70's. Or classical music.

(L) Obviously we need to be paying much closer attention to our musical tastes, and analyzing what it is about songs that we like. And obviously, we need to pay a lot more attention to what we listen to in the background. But that means I'm safe since I only listen to old classic rock like Bob Seger, whose music is the best! [laughter]

A: Yes. Goodbye.

Yet in that '70's popular culture' phase, one notable exception 'who bucked the trend' was John Lennon. Despite the huge adulation of being part of the Beatles, and having all the temptations and trappings of fame and fortune therefore, he seemed to consciously chose to express his considerable creative talents towards 'truth and love' imo.

Hence, unlike the majority of his contemporaries in the musical 'Establishment' (McCartney, Jagger, Bowie et al) his 'influence' was very much a threat to the PTB, thus the CIA reports on him and his eventual assassination.

I have a certain appreciation for some of David Bowie's body of work, but that is it. Musical artists I have great respect for are those who use their lofty positions to highlight the insanity and injustices of this world and the human condition - like the late John Lennon and nowadays Roger Waters and his courageous views on Palestine, the UN etc.