Dear Laura, whats going on?

[bjorb]

Hi tohuwabohu

Perhaps you have some making nice programs that are running wild, which is part of believing that everyone has to act nice in order to be a productive group? Just being nice for the sake of being nice accomplished nothing in The Work. Mirrors are about delivering shocks and thinking with the hammer. So it's not an attack on Menna, and if Menna has the same Aim as we try to uphold as a group than it can be correctly perceived as a lesson.

The matter it was 'asked?' was simply not external considerate. It came across rather rude and demanding. Perhaps the intent was different, but the execution of it was negative.


[quote author= tohuwabohu]And the ultimate goal, if my memory serves me well, is to gain enough light, knowledge and strength so that we can battle the forces of darkness.[/quote]

That's why we have to be honest and call out each other when something is not external considerate.


[quote author= tohuwabohu]What happened has serious implications. Participants on the forum are clearly confused and do not know what to make of it. This needs to be clarified.[/quote]

Making nice programs also entails having difficulty of seeing negative behavior in others. That's why you might be missing the clue here? Perhaps it's something to consider :)

https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Make_nice_program

A "make nice program" refers to an automatic behavior tending towards avoiding conflict and making repeated concessions or tolerating consistent ill treatment.
A 'make nice' program is rooted in internal considering. The person running the program thinks that there is virtue in endless patience and that just a little bit more tolerance and patience will change another. This is self-serving firstly because the target is changing another, secondly because this ignores the likely impossibility of such a task, thus preferring sweet dreams over reality.

Further, there is praise to be gained before the self and before the world by displaying apparently endless patience and forebearance, which may be most flattering to a certain type of vanity.
In some cases, it is necessary for survival to avoid escalating conflict. This is not a make nice program. A make nice program is denying the existence of the danger and conflict and pretending that ignoring it or smoothing it over will make it go away. A make nice program combines elements of vanity and wishfulness.

Living a life of mechanical 'niceness' can be very damaging to one's psychological and physical health. It is a common pattern of toxic relationships, where an enabling person (perhaps codependent) puts up with the abuse of a narcissist, an addict, or even a psychopath, to the detriment of health and well-being. More generally, habitually denying negative emotions appropriate to reality results in chronic stress, which also impairs immune system functioning and can even result in autoimmune diseases.

 

[seek10]

I was always fascinated by C's ways of communicating. Couple of times, we at NE group has opportunity to be part of the Sessions. Before our first session, we NE group talked about questions to ask. I have asked one question, I thought universal, but C's answer is unexpected. It looked as if they pulled out all my thoughts, conflicts over the years to address(identification with survival needs) and pointing finger at them, even though it is not what I asked. Surely, I am glad they mentioned, it was real shocker to me.

(seek10) In 1912, the ship that sank was Titanic, or what it was? [reference to the story that the ship that sank was not the Titanic, but a sister ship named Olympus, and that there was some kind of insurance scam involved.]

A: What would be the point?

Q: [laughter] (seek10) Just want to know the truth.

Though I said I want to know the truth, which is true, but it is not a burning question. So I don't think they will answer since somebody wants to ask for the sake of asking whenever we want it. If it is a burning question, you will do research about it in SOTT/forum or on the net, that builds context. Sessions are full of these instances.

 

[BrendaH]

I've been thinking about why I overreacted with Menna's thread and if I was in reality projecting, and I came to the conclusion that I saw in Menna's thread an attitude that I hate in some members of my family and why we have argued many times.

What you described sounds as if it may be passive-aggressive programs running. Maybe there was a touch of that in Menna’s post, or at least it was perceived as such.

What I'm referring to is when someone wants something and instead of asking for it directly they complain or say something indirectly regarding what they want, etc.

Well that can be done in passive-aggressive ways, it’s hard to say without specifics. But let’s say for the minute that it is the case, there are some important questions to consider then I think. What can be the cause or root of this habit in the other person? And when that has been considered, what could my best, most helpful action be?

I used not to do or give them what they wanted until they said "I want this or that", or "can you do this or that?".

Which you you think about it, can be a passive-aggressive habit itself! Same thing, different flavour, but we tell ourselves that it’s everyone else running programs not us! I’ve caught myself doing that a time or two with family members, what we miss then by running our own such programs in response is the chance to think much about and observe what is being triggered in us and why in the first place.

Now I say to them why don't you ask directly what you want? And they simply laugh, this gets my nerves, because they think is funny or I don't know. And for some reason Menna's thread triggered the same response on myself.

Well there can be different reasons why the other person might laugh. Depends on why they said whatever they said in the first place, and depends on how you put your reply, in tone and manner.

Maybe the other person thinks we’re silly and are laughing at us, maybe they don’t know how to react to someone pointing out that it’s okay to just ask for what you want, so it’s a kind of unconscious deflection then from having to have that uncomfortable moment of realising that you don’t know how to ask. But if the latter is the case, is that their fault, should we be angered by that?

I think if any of that fits with what we think we see in our own families, it’s up to us to take the responsibility to be more considerate in our responses and actions. If others have problems asking in a straight forward way, be more attentive to the reasons why that might be so. Within the context of family especially, these things just get passed on down the line from generation to generation. If properly observed and understood though, that no longer need be the case, we can choose to not let the programs run when we observe they have been triggered.

Thank you Alada!! I'll apply what you wrote especially the parts in bold. I read it a few times and in the part where you ask if we should be angered when someone doesn't know how to ask, I would say that no they don't have the fault and probably as myself they have their own programs running and maybe they doesn't care about it or don't see their way to "ask" as a problem. And no, we shouldn't angered at it.

[Quote author=Alada]What can be the cause or root of this habit in the other person? And when that has been considered, what could my best, most helpful action be?[/quote]

this is where I should be more externally considerate. I usually am, especially when I know that that person could be having some programs running from childhood but when the other person is proud about "oh how manipulative I am" is when I have the doubt if they are like that because they like. And yet it could be a program especially with one person that I am referring who in her childhood had everything she wanted, she couldn't accept a no as an answer and was very manipulative with hes parents and maybe she learned to "ask" in this way, even in the more little details.

Just to end, I see that when I write I get to conclusions and this is why, for example, in one part I have doubts if the manipulative way to ask it could be a childhood program and then I get to the conclusion that it could be a program because of her way to ask for things to her parents in her childhood. Thank you Alada again!!

 

[Sparrowkin]

I'm very glad I read this whole thread, it was informative in a lot of areas for me. I mostly wanted to just thank everyone who posted because it was a learning experience just reading how the topic evolved and how my thinking changed as I read.

There are a couple of other thoughts I would like to share, perhaps they will be of benefit to others. If not, just ignore me! :) I'm assuming here that this is two threads and the Menna question/comment/demand was a separate thread that was moved here, right or not? I did not know what to think of his post, and I wish he would reply but it appears he has not. This is unfortunate because some clarification would help me to understand the views of others better, perhaps there is history with this person already?

In any case, it did seem sort of a time waster for everyone here for Menna to start a thread in such a way, but reading the evolution of the thinking of others here was enlightening. I have lurked here for a long time and I think now, the reason I am so timid about posting is an Ego problem, ultimately. Or self-importance might be the better term. I had thought to myself that I am afraid to disrupt the work here by posting useless things or things everyone else has already dealt with and I do not wish to disrupt or waste anyone's time. However after reading this thread, I think I've actually just been "protecting" my Ego, being afraid to post something that those whom I look up to on this forum might think is "stupid" or first grade stuff.

I know I'm not looking for an echo chamber to confirm my beliefs or anything like that, but I do have a strong wish to have dialog with other seekers, and some of the responses I've read from the long time members here are a little scary to be honest. I'm still very childish in many ways so I know this is silly. If I bring up a topic and no seems to be interested, I should not take such a thing personally, but as we all know its relatively easy to make such rational choices with our head and incredibly difficult to actually do it. From the responses in this thread however, I see clearly that as long as we are open and HONEST with each other and most especially ourselves, "niceness" is not needed. In my offline life, I usually find it annoying when people sugar coat truths and usually wastes time and energy, but it seems that considering others is not the same thing. The way I see it right now is that in this world it saves energy to be considerate to others when you have to work together, and it makes one a well-rounded person, but NO ONE should come in (I mean new members, like me) expecting that from others. We came to this forum to find Truth, which in my case is NEVER what I expected! We should really try to be open to criticism because we came here to learn from all of you that have done so much work already. It does seem like ALL of us are still working on external consideration though, you know the old, "be the change you wish to see" stuff.

Sorry for making this post so long, but I acquired a new perspective and I thought maybe this would be useful to someone out there and if not, y'all can tell me why its not so useful! :P

 

[tohuwabohu]

Hi tohuwabohu

Perhaps you have some making nice programs that are running wild, which is part of believing that everyone has to act nice in order to be a productive group? Just being nice for the sake of being nice accomplished nothing in The Work. Mirrors are about delivering shocks and thinking with the hammer. So it's not an attack on Menna, and if Menna has the same Aim as we try to uphold as a group than it can be correctly perceived as a lesson.

The matter it was 'asked?' was simply not external considerate. It came across rather rude and demanding. Perhaps the intent was different, but the execution of it was negative.


[quote author= tohuwabohu]And the ultimate goal, if my memory serves me well, is to gain enough light, knowledge and strength so that we can battle the forces of darkness.

That's why we have to be honest and call out each other when something is not external considerate.


[quote author= tohuwabohu]What happened has serious implications. Participants on the forum are clearly confused and do not know what to make of it. This needs to be clarified.[/quote]

Making nice programs also entails having difficulty of seeing negative behavior in others. That's why you might be missing the clue here? Perhaps it's something to consider :)

https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Make_nice_program

A "make nice program" refers to an automatic behavior tending towards avoiding conflict and making repeated concessions or tolerating consistent ill treatment.
A 'make nice' program is rooted in internal considering. The person running the program thinks that there is virtue in endless patience and that just a little bit more tolerance and patience will change another. This is self-serving firstly because the target is changing another, secondly because this ignores the likely impossibility of such a task, thus preferring sweet dreams over reality.

Further, there is praise to be gained before the self and before the world by displaying apparently endless patience and forebearance, which may be most flattering to a certain type of vanity.
In some cases, it is necessary for survival to avoid escalating conflict. This is not a make nice program. A make nice program is denying the existence of the danger and conflict and pretending that ignoring it or smoothing it over will make it go away. A make nice program combines elements of vanity and wishfulness.

Living a life of mechanical 'niceness' can be very damaging to one's psychological and physical health. It is a common pattern of toxic relationships, where an enabling person (perhaps codependent) puts up with the abuse of a narcissist, an addict, or even a psychopath, to the detriment of health and well-being. More generally, habitually denying negative emotions appropriate to reality results in chronic stress, which also impairs immune system functioning and can even result in autoimmune diseases.

[/quote]

There is no real enemy except yourself.
If you are busy attacking someone else you will lose precious energy, you will fail. This is all about energy.

 

[Anamarija]

Ok, I needed 5 pages of others comments to finally understand that I was wrong. I was pretty much stubborn which I don't find my characteristic. The overturn happend when I have asked my self what would happend if nobody reacted 'negative' on Menna post? Probably nothing, no two sides, no discussion. From this point of view I don't see the point of my comment to Menna. Even I still have opinion about his act, I can understand that in this situation (not dangerous in any kind) my comment was completely useless. The way he shape his post and intention was trigger for me, but my response was passive aggressive wrapped in offensive joke and I'm really sorry because of that, especially because now that joke isn't funny at all. Also, I realized that sometime I say something insulting and the on the end just write: i hope no one will be insulted with this. I know, rather .

I apologize Menna and everyone else, especially Loreta because I felt that she was hurt by 'negative' response (maybe I'm wrong) the most.

This rather unexpected development and finally my own conclusion of my ridiculous and immature behaviour happend in the same time when another member past trough some rough situation and with Laura's advices she get trough very nicely. I was surprised with Laura's suggestions but it worked, and I'm planning to implemented in my every day behaviour, just to see what will happend. And surely I'm gonna work on it to leave my 'not funny at all comments' for my self.

Regarding Menna, also there is possibility that he didn't see this post. Maybe you should change the title of the thread to "Dear Menna, what's going on?" He can't miss that ;).

p.s. still remain the question when it is moment when we should stand for ourselves?

 

[tohuwabohu]

What is WRONG with you supermoderators, ambassadors, moderators and whatever. Menna didn't do anything wrong just stated the obvious. Is it a crime? Perhaps you should get in check your selfimportance.
Sorry but feel a little bit cranky myself :P

tohuwabohu, this entire admonition of the mods comes across as quite self-important in and of itself, whatever the reasons others had for criticizing menna. You also say you felt cranky when you responded. That doesn't seem like the best condition under which to give an externally considerate response.

I didn't initiate the attack, they did. The security of the STO community was compromised and thus I have all the right to defend us by any means necessary. And I did that rather gently. This is my home now.
We are nearing the end and thus it is pretty much expected that the STS forces will not just sit and wait but they will try to infiltrate and decompose us from the inside by corrupting our values. Be aware of this fact and be vigilant. If in doubt, network. That is what STO does.
I know that we can make mistakes, but we should LEARN from them so that we will never do the same mistake again.
And I am not big fan of excuses and "allowances". Police in the USA is.

 

[tohuwabohu]

Ok, I needed 5 pages of others comments to finally understand that I was wrong. I was pretty much stubborn which I don't find my characteristic. The overturn happend when I have asked my self what would happend if nobody reacted 'negative' on Menna post? Probably nothing, no two sides, no discussion. From this point of view I don't see the point of my comment to Menna. Even I still have opinion about his act, I can understand that in this situation (not dangerous in any kind) my comment was completely useless. The way he shape his post and intention was trigger for me, but my response was passive aggressive wrapped in offensive joke and I'm really sorry because of that, especially because now that joke isn't funny at all. Also, I realized that sometime I say something insulting and the on the end just write: i hope no one will be insulted with this. I know, rather .

I apologize Menna and everyone else, especially Loreta because I felt that she was hurt by 'negative' response (maybe I'm wrong) the most.

This rather unexpected development and finally my own conclusion of my ridiculous and immature behaviour happend in the same time when another member past trough some rough situation and with Laura's advices she get trough very nicely. I was surprised with Laura's suggestions but it worked, and I'm planning to implemented in my every day behaviour, just to see what will happend. And surely I'm gonna work on it to leave my 'not funny at all comments' for my self.

Regarding Menna, also there is possibility that he didn't see this post. Maybe you should change the title of the thread to "Dear Menna, what's going on?" He can't miss that ;).

p.s. still remain the question when it is moment when we should stand for ourselves?

Dakota you asked yourself the correct question, and found the correct answer. That is also how I understand the situation. You are doing well. You are on your way.
The second bolded part shows us that we have all the tools we need. And we can use them to do good, to help others.
So even if someone has negative traits, he/she can use them to help others. This realization is also important.

 

[tohuwabohu]

Everyone, try to find alternative answer to Dakota's question: "what would happened if nobody reacted 'negative' on Menna post?" Can you see the alternate reality??? Post here what you see. We are STO we can have fun.

 

[nature]

What do you call "reacted negative"? Enlighten me and I'll answer to your question, tohuwabohu. (because I've seen nowhere an agressive post against Menna)

Dakota, when you say "Regarding Menna, also there is possibility that he didn't see this post. Maybe you should change the title of the thread to "Dear Menna, what's going on?" " Are you really serious? You want the mods to run after a selfish guy? You really think he doesn't read this thread? Can you envisage the possibility he's laughing behind his screen?

 

[Anamarija]

Dakota, when you say "Regarding Menna, also there is possibility that he didn't see this post. Maybe you should change the title of the thread to "Dear Menna, what's going on?" " Are you really serious? You want the mods to run after a selfish guy? You really think he doesn't read this thread? Can you envisage the possibility he's laughing behind his screen?

Yes, I can, but I still think that getting the truth and learn from it is much more important than his, eventually, gloat.

This situation is rather common in my everyday situation and I rarely get a chance to actually receive explanation why people did or said something why they did it/say it. Also, it bugs me how easily my point of view could be switch from one point to another. Rarely I could make some conclusion that could resolve the issue that some form of conflict or discussion bring up.

 

[loreta]

Ok, I needed 5 pages of others comments to finally understand that I was wrong. I was pretty much stubborn which I don't find my characteristic. The overturn happend when I have asked my self what would happend if nobody reacted 'negative' on Menna post? Probably nothing, no two sides, no discussion. From this point of view I don't see the point of my comment to Menna. Even I still have opinion about his act, I can understand that in this situation (not dangerous in any kind) my comment was completely useless. The way he shape his post and intention was trigger for me, but my response was passive aggressive wrapped in offensive joke and I'm really sorry because of that, especially because now that joke isn't funny at all. Also, I realized that sometime I say something insulting and the on the end just write: i hope no one will be insulted with this. I know, rather .

I apologize Menna and everyone else, especially Loreta because I felt that she was hurt by 'negative' response (maybe I'm wrong) the most.

This rather unexpected development and finally my own conclusion of my ridiculous and immature behaviour happend in the same time when another member past trough some rough situation and with Laura's advices she get trough very nicely. I was surprised with Laura's suggestions but it worked, and I'm planning to implemented in my every day behaviour, just to see what will happend. And surely I'm gonna work on it to leave my 'not funny at all comments' for my self.

Regarding Menna, also there is possibility that he didn't see this post. Maybe you should change the title of the thread to "Dear Menna, what's going on?" He can't miss that ;).

p.s. still remain the question when it is moment when we should stand for ourselves?

Don't worry, I was not offended by your post. :)

 

[tohuwabohu]

What do you call "reacted negative"? Enlighten me and I'll answer to your question, tohuwabohu. (because I've seen nowhere an agressive post against Menna)

Dakota, when you say "Regarding Menna, also there is possibility that he didn't see this post. Maybe you should change the title of the thread to "Dear Menna, what's going on?" " Are you really serious? You want the mods to run after a selfish guy? You really think he doesn't read this thread? Can you envisage the possibility he's laughing behind his screen?

Menna was attacked and beaten on energetic level. Can't you see that nature?

 

[nature]

What do you call "reacted negative"? Enlighten me and I'll answer to your question, tohuwabohu. (because I've seen nowhere an agressive post against Menna)

Dakota, when you say "Regarding Menna, also there is possibility that he didn't see this post. Maybe you should change the title of the thread to "Dear Menna, what's going on?" " Are you really serious? You want the mods to run after a selfish guy? You really think he doesn't read this thread? Can you envisage the possibility he's laughing behind his screen?

Menna was attacked and beaten on energetic level. Can't you see that nature?

No, I don't see that.
By the way, you don't answer my question, can you show me the post(s) were he "was attacked and beaten"?

edit: quotes

 

[WIN 52]

This seems to be a good example of what Cesar meant when he talked about the fickleness of human nature, imho.