Do you fear being STS?

[placematt]

A crocodile can eat you without your permission. To think your will and your wish will define other's actions is pure STS. Everyone is always free to do things with or without permission.

"No." itself does not work in the slightest.

If they are literally on top of you, you can literally bet your life that it's life and death on more than a physical level. They are bigger, better, faster, can see, hear, and do more than you can, can exploit things in you you never knew were there, read your thoughts as they happen, use past focuses and interests against you, and even and especially your body's feeling states to compel/force submission.

And that barely adequately describes it.

No... eh? what are you talking about?

I am talking about an animal not a lizzie alien. My point is to focus on each situation, each element interacting and each result of your choice. Sometimes you can run, sometimes you can't, and sometimes you can avoid entirely the need for running.

I agree completely Promoteo,

however in a situation were you can't escape, and your being murdered or attacked. Can you still not have the attitude of no. because is not the other person who is murdering you breaking your own free will anyway. I don't understand how not giving someone permission to murder you is an STS act? And if it is, then fair enough, but better to stand your ground mentally then not at all? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean.

 

[Kisito]

No but I fear bigger STS that eat me

They can't eat you without your permission.

Perhaps, but the real question is: what constitutes permission?

This is exactly the question I asked myself.

I think we could deepen and wonder why we fly be STO?
If we are STS is our choice. So why do we want to change?
If we think that STS is not good, then why do not we change?

I think part of the permission, lies in the conflict between what one wants and what one believes will.

For if we fail to be STO is that our deep desire will not.

What for ?

I imagined a world STO.
So in this imaginary world, we would be in service to others (STO).
This means that we would share resources, benefits and constraints.
But how far can be shared?

Could we share our home, our friends, our children, our husband or wife?

Let's make this possible for some. But would we share our beauty, our intelligence, our knowledge and respectability. And realize that our intelligence is no longer authority and is no longer respected, for everyone at the same intelligence.
Imagine your life STO, and you will understand if you give your permission.

Are we ready to give up a part of our ego? No, I do not think so. Each of us still waiting for some form of recognition, a form of respect, because we identify as independent. This belief of identity, confronts us with the comparison. The comparison confronts us with the competition, the competition is Service to Self (STS).

For now, it seems to me that we do not want to be STO for the good of others, but for the value or prestigious as it sounds provoke.

 

[riclapaz]

For now, it seems to me that we do not want to be STO for the good of others, but for the value or prestigious as it sounds provoke.

I think we can not to run without learning to walk, we are doing the work to become candidates STO, really is difficult to understand the concept of STO in our density, in terms of helping others, and know what is good for de others? while act as machines, I do not think we understand what really is help, we can make a bad, thinking that we do good? maybe it's good to remember, what was said by the Cs, while we are in this world we are STS, through work and become candidates for STO. ;)

 

[cubbex]

I agree completely Promoteo,

however in a situation were you can't escape, and your being murdered or attacked. Can you still not have the attitude of no. because is not the other person who is murdering you breaking your own free will anyway. I don't understand how not giving someone permission to murder you is an STS act? And if it is, then fair enough, but better to stand your ground mentally then not at all? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean.

Because musicman said that it won't happen if you don't give your permission, well, that is true under certain conditions, permission ultimately is relative to a social interaction and mutual understanding, two people with common ends agree on each other's permission. The concept of permission is sort of artificial. But that is an inner rule, a social rule or law, but it is like a deal or an agreement. But, the problem comes when you think your permissions is an absolute law that others must follow as you say, that you are entitlted that others do as your permit. Get it?

As an example, most people through their lifes do not really consider and respect each other "permissions", sometimes, people achieve their ends by knowing the other permission through cunning and manipulative methods. Permissions are an illusion, they only work if there is an agreement. Let's say a psychopat cop comes to your house with a gun and says, down or I shoot you, what's better? to stand on your pride and say "you shall not pass!" while you show the palm of your hand and probably get hurt, or to be intelligent and try to avoid any harm and to provoke these cops? get it? situations are not as easily as to limit them to a permission concept. It is more like a power relationship between individuals. Strict reallity.

 

[Menna]

Its not so much that you wanted to be STS but that you wanted to learn about it, learn about 3D sts interaction and yourself within this STS realm. Remember everything makes up the one/union so every piece of the puzzle is important and contains knowledge and has its relation to the other pieces that make up the whole picture. I believe I know where you are coming from with your question however I believe that the word fear in your question makes it an all or nothing type of question when there is alot of gray area. I have a question similar to yours however its goes like this. How much of an STS being should I be? The answer to this is personal and situationally specific. If you are in touch with your emotional center and can feel when you are being too STS it hurts you or giving away too much of yourself STO where it makes it hard to live in this 3D life you will eventually through experience, time and self knowledge find the STS that personally fits you and your level you can then work with this and apply it to the different situations that arise and this will change as you change as your level changes.

 

[placematt]

I agree completely Promoteo,

however in a situation were you can't escape, and your being murdered or attacked. Can you still not have the attitude of no. because is not the other person who is murdering you breaking your own free will anyway. I don't understand how not giving someone permission to murder you is an STS act? And if it is, then fair enough, but better to stand your ground mentally then not at all? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean.

Because musicman said that it won't happen if you don't give your permission, well, that is true under certain conditions, permission ultimately is relative to a social interaction and mutual understanding, two people with common ends agree on each other's permission. The concept of permission is sort of artificial. But that is an inner rule, a social rule or law, but it is like a deal or an agreement. But, the problem comes when you think your permissions is an absolute law that others must follow as you say, that you are entitlted that others do as your permit. Get it?

As an example, most people through their lifes do not really consider and respect each other "permissions", sometimes, people achieve their ends by knowing the other permission through cunning and manipulative methods. Permissions are an illusion, they only work if there is an agreement. Let's say a psychopat cop comes to your house with a gun and says, down or I shoot you, what's better? to stand on your pride and say "you shall not pass!" while you show the palm of your hand and probably get hurt, or to be intelligent and try to avoid any harm and to provoke these cops? get it? situations are not as easily as to limit them to a permission concept. It is more like a power relationship between individuals. Strict reallity.

Hey Promoteo, yes i do understand what you mean now. That permission is only a concept or socially applicable law, its not any type of foundation for life. Makes sense.

Its not so much that you wanted to be STS but that you wanted to learn about it, learn about 3D sts interaction and yourself within this STS realm. Remember everything makes up the one/union so every piece of the puzzle is important and contains knowledge and has its relation to the other pieces that make up the whole picture. I believe I know where you are coming from with your question however I believe that the word fear in your question makes it an all or nothing type of question when there is alot of gray area. I have a question similar to yours however its goes like this. How much of an STS being should I be? The answer to this is personal and situationally specific. If you are in touch with your emotional center and can feel when you are being too STS it hurts you or giving away too much of yourself STO where it makes it hard to live in this 3D life you will eventually through experience, time and self knowledge find the STS that personally fits you and your level you can then work with this and apply it to the different situations that arise and this will change as you change as your level changes.

Hey Menna, thanks for your post. I really like the perspective your giving on being STS and yes, the question is definitely black and white. So i understand that its probably not a good way to deal, in absolutes. So i need to look at it more liberal. Many thanks!!

 

[Nienna]

Just want to say that really looking at why we are doing something is very important. Everybody thinks that just being nice, giving and caring is STO. But, is it really all of the time?

Looking really deep down to why we are doing something is not easy because of our system 2 wanting to make narratives about why we are doing something. But are we doing it because it's the right thing to do, or because it makes us feel good and look good to others? If we do something because it makes us feel good about ourselves and makes us look good to others, then it is STS. And, as stated, we are in a STS world and are all STS, but knowing why we are doing something is a really good way to get to know ourselves better, and, maybe to be a bit more of a STO candidate.

Until we start doing the Work on ourselves, and getting feedback from those who are already well on their way of the Work, we won't be anything but mechanical, sleeping beings.

 

[David]

Just want to say that really looking at why we are doing something is very important. Everybody thinks that just being nice, giving and caring is STO. But, is it really all of the time?

Looking really deep down to why we are doing something is not easy because of our system 2 wanting to make narratives about why we are doing something. But are we doing it because it's the right thing to do, or because it makes us feel good and look good to others? If we do something because it makes us feel good about ourselves and makes us look good to others, then it is STS. And, as stated, we are in a STS world and are all STS, but knowing why we are doing something is a really good way to get to know ourselves better, and, maybe to be a bit more of a STO candidate.

Until we start doing the Work on ourselves, and getting feedback from those who are already well on their way of the Work, we won't be anything but mechanical, sleeping beings.

I’m reminded of this session 28th of August 1999

found here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,25694.msg305778.html#msg305778

A: In STS, you possess.

Q: That's what I am saying here...

A: If you move through the beautiful flowers, the silk, the skin of another, but do not seek to possess...

{snip}

A: If it is desired, then the mechanism is not to give. Do you eat a piece of chocolate cake because it is good to give to the stomach?

{snip}

A: No, in STS, which is your realm do not forget, one gives because of the pleasant sensation which results.

{snip}

Q: (A) There are those who are happy in the STS mode; and there are those who are trying to get out of the STS mode...

A: STO candidate.

 

[cubbex]

Hey Promoteo, yes i do understand what you mean now. That permission is only a concept or socially applicable law, its not any type of foundation for life. Makes sense.

No xD, I mean that is done by an agreement of two or more people. Thing is the concept of permission and all of that can be used to dominate. Maybe if you can get the "Political Ponerology" book youll get the idea of paralogisms and all that stuff, really interesting. I say, Andre nailed it by describing our STS nature in a more common psychological type of frame. Amazing work from the guy.

 

[CeLegacy]

What is STS and STO?

 

[mkrnhr]

What is STS and STO?

Hi CeLegacy,
Maybe this can help http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=883
:)

 

[Sparrowkin]

A crocodile can eat you without your permission. To think your will and your wish will define other's actions is pure STS. Everyone is always free to do things with or without permission.

"No." itself does not work in the slightest.

If they are literally on top of you, you can literally bet your life that it's life and death on more than a physical level. They are bigger, better, faster, can see, hear, and do more than you can, can exploit things in you you never knew were there, read your thoughts as they happen, use past focuses and interests against you, and even and especially your body's feeling states to compel/force submission.

And that barely adequately describes it.

No... eh? what are you talking about?

I am talking about an animal not a lizzie alien. My point is to focus on each situation, each element interacting and each result of your choice. Sometimes you can run, sometimes you can't, and sometimes you can avoid entirely the need for running.

I have this thought, please guide me back if I'm off-track, but I have this idea that "permission" is not just saying Yes or No. Perhaps going out in the marsh without Knowledge of crocs could be equated to giving them permission to eat you? By choosing ignorance of the Dark Side of life, we ARE in fact saying, "yes go ahead and preheat the oven, I wish to be food!"
Wand3rer, thanks for sharing your experience here, the ensuing discussion is very helpful for me also. You are not alone in your fears.

 

[Keyhole]

I have this thought, please guide me back if I'm off-track, but I have this idea that "permission" is not just saying Yes or No. Perhaps going out in the marsh without Knowledge of crocs could be equated to giving them permission to eat you? By choosing ignorance of the Dark Side of life, we ARE in fact saying, "yes go ahead and preheat the oven, I wish to be food!"

Well, the C's have said on numerous occasions that "Knowledge protects, ignorance endangers". Giving another permission and handing over your free will is generally not a conscious process. If it was conscious, most of us would probably choose not to do it ;D. It is not only through the acquisition of knowledge, but actually the application of knowledge that can help us navigate life without being "eaten" so to speak.

Hypothetically speaking, if you choose to go walking through a marsh, do a bit of research into the area if you are aware that there is the possibility of crocs, it's pretty simple really. It comes back to practicing situational awareness as much as possible. If you are aware of all possible problems that could take place and take the necessary precautions, then you will be more prepared to deal with whatever comes up.

So in this respect, i would agree that being ignorant of the fact that there are crocodiles out in the marsh which you have chosen to walk through could be equated with you, at a deeper level, giving permission to be eaten. By choosing ignorance/non-being at a soul level, you accept every other consequence that comes with that choice.

 

[Buddy]

I have this thought, please guide me back if I'm off-track, but I have this idea that "permission" is not just saying Yes or No. Perhaps going out in the marsh without Knowledge of crocs could be equated to giving them permission to eat you? By choosing ignorance of the Dark Side of life, we ARE in fact saying, "yes go ahead and preheat the oven, I wish to be food!"

I also seem to be pretty much in line with others and I think you're on a useful track. Your question reminded me of the Hermetic maxim, As above, so below. With that in mind, I would think the widest context for this answer might start with chapter 68 of the online Wave because it might help to remind us of a certain repeating pattern of our behavior and "a repeating syndrome throughout all of creation." I'm quite sure you'll come away with a better understanding of 'permission,' and the relation between permission, knowledge/ignorance and freewill.


A starting point for my thought is that we have enough freewill to make a choice. We see something we could do or have and then desire to do it or get it. We make that move. We experience the consequences of the choice. If we get eaten by a crocodile, then it's likely that consequence was not understood due to ignorance. Ignorance of what? Whatever we didn't know that 'allowed' that to happen.

I say "allow" because I'm assigning blame to the human, of course, the same way the Hopi Indians would. Hopi understood process. They would never allow a grammatical construction like: "The crocodile ate the man." That would imply the crocodile was the causative factor over the human. Instead, Hopi would say something like: "The man got himself eaten by the crocodile." That's a passive construction in the English, but in Hopi thought it recognizes that the human is the more responsible party and that this construction is a better way of understanding that process and passing this understanding on to others.

So, with regard to being eaten by that croc, maybe it would be more meaningful to understand that "permission" was simply an element in that circumstance? A knowledge gap (ignorance of something) "permitted" someone to get eaten. Like the "permission" can be found in the circumstance itself, since there wasn't enough knowledge there for someone to prevent being eaten. Unless they let it happen on purpose, of course.

 

[Sparrowkin]

Buddy, thanks for linking to CH. 68 of the wave. Re-reading it with the context of this thread in mind, I noticed things I did not notice on the first read through. One thing that really "grabbed" me was this:
"Does it scare you to think that the medical system in the Western world may be approaching healing in the wrong way; that your doctor, despite his best intentions, may have been educated and brainwashed into a system that does not promote health? If you are ill and need treatment, and you know that your doctor might kill you or do irreparable harm to you, do you just go into denial about your sickness and sit there and die? Or do you begin to learn all you can about your illness, the many varied treatment methods that might be available in other forms of healing, and possibly take responsibility for your own wellness by making some decisions as to what treatments you will implement in your own life? And, if you are stymied or blocked in this endeavor, will you just give up and take the only medicine available and possibly die?" Quote fromhttp://cassiopaea.org/2012/03/24/the-wave-chapter-68-as-above-so-below/

This speaks directly to a problem of mine. In other areas, learning has produced in me empowerment, but dipping my toe into the knowledge (and disinformation) base of health has produced the effect of a terrified little girl, or even more precise, a terrified old lady who SHOULD know better. I am so afraid of doctors because of personal experience, that even against the evidence that some of them DO have clue, I've ignored health issues out of just plain old displaced fear. The real problem, is that I don't feel like I have the right knowledge, because if I do, then it doesn't matter if the doctor knows it all or doesn't. I was really pushing the burden on to the medical establishment. In our analogy of the crocodile, I know darn good and well that I need something that lies somewhere in the marsh, and being scared of crocodiles isn't helping me find what I need. But if I can get to know the crocodiles, then there shouldn't be any fear. In theory I will know they're going to snap their jaws at me long before they know. I can't put the burden on the Crocs, that's just wishful thinking. I'm glad I can see this now, even though its scary!