Don't flatter yourselves.

[SummerLite]

Hi Lainey,

Ok so it's an outward blaming for the pain within, he can't bear to look at himself so he is searching for the enemy out there and the biggest enemy is the one who has the potential to expose the predator so he wants to protect himself from that by attacking or teaching us we are wrong.

Wow, very insightful and thought provoking. Dooms love and light philosophy, being part of this, would be a nice, comfy blanket to wrap the self in.

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=lainey]
Ok so it's an outward blaming for the pain within, he can't bear to look at himself so he is searching for the enemy out there and the biggest enemy is the one who has the potential to expose the predator so he wants to protect himself from that by attacking or teaching us we are wrong.
[/quote]

That is one of the possibilities. Other possibilities include

- self importance/right man syndrome/ Dunning Kruger effect

- trolling for lulz

Not everyone blames and projects due to inner pain.

Disclaimer: I do not know what caused Doom to behave the way he did. So the above is a general comment, not specifically directed towards anyone.

 

[Denis]

Forgot to ask this sooner, but i'm really curious about this. Approaching Infinity, you mentioned the word "DAGIAL" a couple of times in your post. I don't want to speculate on the meaning and origin of that word, so i will directly ask: who or what is DAGIAL?
Does it have something to do with the predator's mind?

Nope, I think that it was referring to "DoomAndGloomIsALie" = DAGIAL

Ah! Funny how i couldn't see that at the time. Not that i have put much effort into figuring this out for myself, to be perfectly honest.
Thanks Chu, appreciate the response! ;)

Hi, I had another comment I wanted to make and forgot about it so thought I'd throw it in at this late date.

Doom:

So basically what I'm trying to say is that all you seem to be doing is REFLECTING everything I said back unto me!


Approaching Infinity:
Because DAGIAL is projecting.

Projecting...hmm. I know about projecting, its one of those basics in psychological terms and we know its so common in our perceptions of life. Been in my awareness for some time now but somehow this struck me with a new clarity in this situation. Its amazing to me that Doom showed this to us in such a clear and obvious way. Looking at this in a symbolic way, a person looks at the world and only sees their own reflection coming back to them, like the world is full of mirrors... Can you picture that? They don't know at all, they are only seeing themselves. The reflection in mirrors are always reversed, must fit in some way with a bit "off" perspective and the symbology involved but cant put my finger on it. Anyway, this passage in the conversation created this image in my mind and I thought it was interesting. Being a person interested in symbols and images, a little surrealistic maybe.

The issue of projecting is a interesting topic. A illusion created by the mind where a persons beliefs are bounced right back to them. They don't know they're walking in a world made of mirrors. Mirrors are interesting in themselves I think.

You've raised some very interesting points there, SummerLite, for me to contemplate. This all feels so surreal and kind of metaphysical, this talk of mirrors. I've been often thinking about this topic for the last few days, and i have been aware of it for a few years already; and yet, i managed to forget the significance and the value of being aware of this phenomenon, until events happened in my life that prompted me to reflect on my behavior and thought patterns underlying the same.

Although this video is about bullying in the more physical sense, i think it also relates to "DAGIAL's" behavior in this thread. And this young lady had this pearls of wisdom to share (in the embedded video below). Please listen carefully, as i honestly believe that hers is a good message; one that we could all do with hearing a bit more. Also, it ties in with what you've said above dear SummerLite. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. ;)

...humans, when they look at you, they don't actually see you. And when they speak to you, they're not speaking for you. They only see the reflection of themselves against you. And often, someone will look at you, and you will amplify the things that they hate in themselves. All you are is a mirror.

http://<iframe width="420" height="...CU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Richs]

I know the dust has pretty much settled at this point, but I am asking myself why didn't I reply?

It felt kind of like a drunk in a bar that you don't really want to interact with knowing it is basically pointless since the drunk is clearly unstable and has an agenda; reason or logic are not going to work since the guy had no interest in any kind of reasoned exchange. The lights were on but nobody was at home.

That's a pretty good description of how most of us felt about it, but those of us who have had quite a bit of experience with this type of thing understand that they must be responded to even if it is pretty certain that it will go nowhere. Sort of like 'Oh boy! Not another one!'. And, contrary to what some have suggested, we would much rather not having to be bothered with this and certainly derived no pleasure in dealing what you colorfully described as a "drunk in a bar". But, darn! Respond we must.

The people who did respond were very even-handed and level-headed but he saw it as attack and reaction and as proof that he was right since that is what he was predisposed to see.

Very instructive. Thanks to all, including Mr Doom for the graphic display.

For one thing, it is an example to those who have not had much or any experience with these types of people as to how they themselves might be able to respond in any future topic as this one.

 

[obyvatel]

Archaea,

[quote author=sitting]
In all honesty, I think those are really your complaints, but safely couched in Doom's utterances. No?
[/quote]

This has been obvious from the get-go.

[quote author=Archaea]
I think Doom's perceptions are valid, even if they're not objective. Sometimes I perceive that the mods and admins, as well as the forum in general, can react emotionally, blocking the higher cognitive faculties.
[/quote]

When potentially contentious issues are brought up, there is discussion among mods and admins about how to address it. The reason this forum was set up this way by the founders is that it reduces the chances of error caused by "like and dislike" trumping higher cognitive faculties. The approach taken is based on agreement among multiple experienced members. You seem sufficiently familiar with mathematics to work out in objective terms how this reduces chances of error in this approach. This is the way decisions are made in high functioning teams in other areas as well and is the best we can get close to objectivity in the human world.

[quote author=Archaea]
I think an example of this is in this thread: Has anybody from this forum become man number 4 (or higher)? where Highfive and Bluebell get banned. I also think, however, that networking would solve these problems for me and maybe for others as well, so I need to know what an appropriate way to discuss this subject is.
[/quote]

I have spent some time and energy studying 4th Way concepts as articulated by Gurdjieff and his close students. To me the original questioner was looking for guarantees before he embarked on a study of 4th Way. It is like Gurdjieff said - one would like to have someone no less than Jesus in stature to be his teacher - irrespective of what his own status is. Other forum members who have had some experience or could intuitively sense where this was leading responded to him.

Then someone came into the forum claiming to be Man 5. And he got some Greek chorus type of support. Man 5 is a 4th Way term. Anyone who has seriously followed and understood 4th Way knows that making such a claim in an internet forum is ridiculous. It becomes a fishing expedition where susceptible individuals are likely to be lured in by such claims. It is the responsibility of the mods and admins of the forum to stand against that. Now, the original questioner as well as those who felt indeed a Man5 made his appearance on the forum have the choice of seeking him out and following him if they so choose - but that cannot happen under the aegis of this forum.

You have not read any 4th Way books or from what is in display, seriously considered the implications of Gurdjieff's teachings discussed in the forum itself - yet you get offended by what happened in that thread dealing specifically with a 4th Way topic with 4th Way terms and bring that up as an instance of injustice perpetrated by the mods and admins. How much objective sense does that make? How much of "higher cognitive faculties" are engaged in this case?

[quote author=Archaea]
Also, this really has nothing to do with anything, but am I asking loaded questions?
[/quote]

Actually, this has everything to do with you. You do ask loaded questions. If you were to take yourself and any of your questions seriously, and follow through with them putting in some real effort, time and energy, it would help you. Instead like Buddy said, you choose to take the approach of "complain and soapbox". It goes nowhere. People have already spent a big chunk of effort to assuage such concerns as those raised by you, including specifically your concerns - it rarely goes anywhere without commensurate efforts on the part of the questioner.

 

[Keyhole]

[quote author=lainey]
Ok so it's an outward blaming for the pain within, he can't bear to look at himself so he is searching for the enemy out there and the biggest enemy is the one who has the potential to expose the predator so he wants to protect himself from that by attacking or teaching us we are wrong.

That is one of the possibilities. Other possibilities include

- self importance/right man syndrome/ Dunning Kruger effect

- trolling for lulz

Not everyone blames and projects due to inner pain.
[/quote]

Yep, I agree. Don't think it would be wise to automatically assume that DAGIAL's behaviour stems from neuroticism. Like George Simon describes in Character disturbance, its just as likely that behaviours like this originate in and are the workings of a malformed narcissistic-type personality, in which case: possibly the worst thing someone can do is to treat them in the same way that they would treat the neurotic individual, because the character disturbed individual simply thrives from the attention. But ofc we cannot be sure about DAGIAL

 

[SummerLite]

Hi Denis, Interesting you've been thinking of mirrors for a few days and could relate to what I said. I appreciate your response.

...humans, when they look at you, they don't actually see you. And when they speak to you, they're not speaking for you. They only see the reflection of themselves against you. And often, someone will look at you, and you will amplify the things that they hate in themselves. All you are is a mirror.

This woman is very good at seeing reality in this aspect. I was impressed with what she said and her insight. Her words are echoed around here. Thanks for posting as it added another layer of depth for my "reflection" :D, on the topic of mirrors today.

Here is piece called "The Lovers" by Remedious Varo, a surrealist painter. It adds another idea to the subject of mirrors and one I thought of today. edit: well darn, their faces are so small you cant see they're mirrors, so I came back to say.

 

[Denis]

Hi Denis, Interesting you've been thinking of mirrors for a few days and could relate to what I said. I appreciate your response.

...humans, when they look at you, they don't actually see you. And when they speak to you, they're not speaking for you. They only see the reflection of themselves against you. And often, someone will look at you, and you will amplify the things that they hate in themselves. All you are is a mirror.

This woman is very good at seeing reality in this aspect. I was impressed with what she said and her insight. Her words are echoed around here. Thanks for posting as it added another layer of depth for my "reflection" :D, on the topic of mirrors today.

Here is piece called "The Lovers" by Remedious Varo, a surrealist painter. It adds another idea to the subject of mirrors and one I thought of today. edit: well darn, their faces are so small you cant see they're mirrors, so I came back to say.

You're very welcome, SummerLite. And don't worry about the picture you've posted, when you click on it it's enlarged and it clearly shows that the lovers' faces are actually mirrors. I adore this stuff; beautiful work of art! :D

 

[Buddy]

[quote author=lainey]
Ok so it's an outward blaming for the pain within, he can't bear to look at himself so he is searching for the enemy out there and the biggest enemy is the one who has the potential to expose the predator so he wants to protect himself from that by attacking or teaching us we are wrong.[/quote]

Like Obyvatel, I don't know what's in Doomy Gloom's mind, but this behavior pattern occurs over and over again, so it's pretty predictable. It's been happening regularly for the seven years I've been a member here.

Although people seem to be attracted to the concept of mirrors and that might, indeed, be an apt metaphor, this phenomena can also be explained more simply. Basically: if person A believes a certain description of STO/STS and person B appears to believe that a different description of the concepts apply, what generally happens is that, instead of person A wanting to compare notes with others, he senses that others misunderstand. He then, may go about correcting others' misunderstandings based on nothing more than the feeling of "misunderstand" which may, in fact, be person A sensing his own misunderstanding and denying that the misunderstanding is his own.

That seems like a complicated explanation when I write it out but, to me, it's even simpler than trying to see it all happening in a hall of mirrors, as apt a description as that might be.

Just my thoughts.

 

[SummerLite]

Thanks obyvatel for your list of other possibilities. I suppose I should have added my own disclaimer to my response to Lainey's statement, in that I didn't mean to imply, THIS IS IT!!!!! D&G's motivation. Because I see it as only one possibility also and I' glad you pointed to others. There is no real way to tell whats behind it in particular. But a good analysis for some people I think. Especially in a certain part of the new age group.

The Dunning-Kruger effect:

The study was inspired by the case of McArthur Wheeler, a man who robbed two banks after covering his face with lemon juice in the mistaken belief that, because lemon juice is usable as invisible ink, it would prevent his face from being recorded on surveillance cameras.[3]

Can you believe it? I am always surprised with the very weird things people do.

A few good quotes:

Although the Dunning–Kruger effect was formulated in 1999, Dunning and Kruger have noted similar observations by philosophers and scientists, including Confucius ("Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance"),[2] Socrates ("I know that I know nothing"), Bertrand Russell ("One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"),[10] and Charles Darwin, whom they quoted in their original paper ("Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge").[1]

Geraint Fuller, commenting on the paper, noted that Shakespeare expressed a similar sentiment in As You Like It ("The Foole doth thinke he is wise, but the wiseman knowes himselfe to be a Foole" (V.i)).[13]

What does this mean? trolling for lulz, trolling for love and lite peeps maybe.

 

[Denis]

[quote author=lainey]
Ok so it's an outward blaming for the pain within, he can't bear to look at himself so he is searching for the enemy out there and the biggest enemy is the one who has the potential to expose the predator so he wants to protect himself from that by attacking or teaching us we are wrong.

Like Obyvatel, I don't know what's in Doomy Gloom's mind, but this behavior pattern occurs over and over again, so it's pretty predictable. It's been happening regularly for the seven years I've been a member here.

Although people seem to be attracted to the concept of mirrors and that might, indeed, be an apt metaphor, this phenomena can also be explained more simply. Basically: if person A believes a certain description of STO/STS and person B appears to believe that a different description of the concepts apply, what generally happens is that, instead of person A wanting to compare notes with others, he senses that others misunderstand. He then, may go about correcting others' misunderstandings based on nothing more than the feeling of "misunderstand" which may, in fact, be person A sensing his own misunderstanding and denying that the misunderstanding is his own.

That seems like a complicated explanation when I write it out but, to me, it's even simpler than trying to see it all happening in a hall of mirrors, as apt a description as that might be.

Just my thoughts.
[/quote]

Hi Buddy,

I don't think any of us knows what's in Doomy Gloom's mind (boy, this version of his nick really cracks me up! ) since we know nothing of this person's background. We've simply witnessed that his behavior is unacceptable here. Hence, we can only speculate what's going on here other than outright trolling on his part. And it seems most of us here think that this person is a male, probably a teenager or in his early 20-ies. But even that is a pure speculation from our part, since we don't have the necessary data to confirm this for a fact.

Thanks for sharing your perspective, Buddy.

 

[BHelmet]

[quote author=lainey]
Like Obyvatel, I don't know what's in Doomy Gloom's mind,....
[/quote]

I will chip in one thing at this point. Look at DAGIAL's handle - it says a lot about where he is coming from:

Gloom and Doom Is a Lie

I would say he perceives this site and a lot of the info here as 'gloom and doom' / i.e., "negative" or he would not have chosen that name. And given that he also is saying 'is a lie', he is discounting everything he does not like. Unexpressed but imbedded in this is: 'you who believe it are fools'; and 'you who speak it are liars', as well as uptight pompous azzes (which he pretty much spelled out); and of course, "I know the real truth/I am just better than y'all".

Yuck!

So, he probably sees himself as someone who already did all his work! The one in 10,000! His work is already done in his mind! Nobody has anything of value to say to him. He has closed himself off in a cocoon of his own illusions. The projection idea really fits.

This whole deal makes me feel like I need to take a shower!

 

[petite femme]

I honestly thought the whole mess was handled quite compassionately. We can't forget that a lot can be lost in a forum setting. Without voice inflection and body language, it is hard to state the facts without it sounding a little harsh. But, that is why we are here, to work together to see things objectively. To seek truth. I also agree that this person really did not appear to be "asking" anything. He appeared to have his mind already set and was not willing to look at any constructive feedback or input. How do you work with that? Well, i think the answer is that it's not possible to work with that. He basically tied our hands from the beginning. The whole thread, imo, was jammed packed with lessons!

 

[A Jay]

I honestly thought the whole mess was handled quite compassionately. We can't forget that a lot can be lost in a forum setting. Without voice inflection and body language, it is hard to state the facts without it sounding a little harsh. But, that is why we are here, to work together to see things objectively. To seek truth. I also agree that this person really did not appear to be "asking" anything. He appeared to have his mind already set and was not willing to look at any constructive feedback or input. How do you work with that? Well, i think the answer is that it's not possible to work with that. He basically tied our hands from the beginning. The whole thread, imo, was jammed packed with lessons!

I agree, his mind was closed off to outside input. But it was handled very well, IMO.

 

[Archaea]

In all honesty, I think those are really your complaints, but safely couched in Doom's utterances. No?

Sometimes I think the mods and admins have let their self-importance run away with them, sometimes I think they're the one's that are projecting, and sometimes I think they're suffering from some emotional trauma themselves and they just want someone to acknowledge that. But I don't know these people, and I'm willing to accept that I'm projecting, talking about it helps I've found.

The bigger picture matters much much more. I believe you know this. But it's that lingering disdain I detect that holds you back. It can be liberating--if you just let go.

I think you're right. :)

I'm still looking forward to your next Seth summation. It's somewhat overdue.

I think we should collaborate on this if you're willing, I tried to have a go at some of the truth stuff you mentioned in the predator thread over here, but it came out pretty wishy washy I think.

I think that something that would help with that is to cite what you see as evidence of your claims. For example, in the thread you linked to, what made you think that banning these two people was equivalent to "reacting emotionally and blocking the higher faculties". I went back and read it, and don't see exactly how you came to that conclusion.

OK, is here a good place or is over in the other thread a better place? I personally am looking forward to comparing notes (like what Buddy said :) ) I'll try to be super polite.

I think you already know that the answer to that question is Yes. But, if you familiarize yourself with the studies on psychopathy, you can also see that pathological behavior can LOOK the same as well, and be motivated by different reasons. Then, there is a big difference: Is a person asking? If not, there is nothing you can do. A lot of people go through indescribable trauma, but don't go attacking others, and actually WANT to get to the bottom of things. Sure, you could try and help someone who seems stubborn until the comets come. But what if you are forcing them to see something they don't want to see? That would be bad, don't you think? So, until and if people like that are willing to be at least open to some things, the best thing is not to associate with them and feed those parts.

So would it be fair to say that it's hard to separate the signal from the noise?

I also think that part of the problem is that you tend to equate defending our path with attacking back. Two very different things. Do you let people step over you in life, just because they may be traumatized?

No. So on the forum one person could perceive that they're under attack while someone else perceives that they're defending themselves? Is this what you mean? and if so, do you think if both people were willing to communicate openly then the problems could be solved? And if you think that (bare with me) do you think Doom's problem was that he wasn't communicating properly?

Yeah, maybe. And maybe if you keep trying to analyze how you reach these types of conclusions, you will see more clearly?

I think so, the network is very helpful.

Archaea, I think that what you are missing here is an important difference: It's not so black and white. But you are projecting. He wasn't venting, explaining a misunderstanding, etc. He was preaching (NOT asking). Not doing anything if you are struggling is not so useful. But he didn't seem to be struggling. He was going to "show us", and even laughed about "who will get there first" and all that. How can we have an adult conversation with someone like that?

I agree he was preaching, and maybe I am projecting, but I think maybe that was his method of venting. And I think it might be difficult to have an adult conversation with someone like that.

The problem I see with this is that you are ASSUMING that Doom was hurt, frustrated, etc. Have you considered the possibility that he may simply want to be right, to have followers, etc.? Because we've seen and interacted with hundreds of people who were like that, we tend to see some patterns. It doesn't mean that the door is closed for ever, if they ever get to come here and be a bit more honest.

OK, I think you're right that I'm assuming, and there are a few other posts in this thread about not knowing what was going on in Doom's mind. I think it wouldn't have hurt to ask him what he was thinking, and although I admit he probably would have answered inappropriately, I still think there's a chance he would have said what was on his mind.

So, really, what IS the problem, Archaea? Without using others as a reason to "complain" or ask questions?

This is the second account I've had on this forum, I was banned the first time. While I understand why I was banned, it did have an effect on me emotionally. So when I rejoined the forum, I suppressed those feelings and I think that caused me to split. Then when the C's brought up the stuff about covert antagonisms I felt like I was given an outlet and I posted some inappropriate stuff.

I think this is the reason why I find this thread so interesting, as I feel like I can understand where Doom is coming from, even though that might just be a projection. The problem I think I have is the way it was handled, I think it would have been better if the people on the forum had just said something like "We're not perfect and we're always striving to become better people and better at what we do, and if you can be polite about your concerns we'll consider them, otherwise we'll ban you."

When potentially contentious issues are brought up, there is discussion among mods and admins about how to address it. The reason this forum was set up this way by the founders is that it reduces the chances of error caused by "like and dislike" trumping higher cognitive faculties. The approach taken is based on agreement among multiple experienced members. You seem sufficiently familiar with mathematics to work out in objective terms how this reduces chances of error in this approach. This is the way decisions are made in high functioning teams in other areas as well and is the best we can get close to objectivity in the human world.

I think it's good the mods and admins discuss these things. But one of my concerns is that it seems to me there isn't much room for feedback from other members. This is similar to one of the points I want to make about the man 4 thread stuff.

Then someone came into the forum claiming to be Man 5. And he got some Greek chorus type of support. Man 5 is a 4th Way term. Anyone who has seriously followed and understood 4th Way knows that making such a claim in an internet forum is ridiculous. It becomes a fishing expedition where susceptible individuals are likely to be lured in by such claims. It is the responsibility of the mods and admins of the forum to stand against that. Now, the original questioner as well as those who felt indeed a Man5 made his appearance on the forum have the choice of seeking him out and following him if they so choose - but that cannot happen under the aegis of this forum.

You have not read any 4th Way books or from what is in display, seriously considered the implications of Gurdjieff's teachings discussed in the forum itself - yet you get offended by what happened in that thread dealing specifically with a 4th Way topic with 4th Way terms and bring that up as an instance of injustice perpetrated by the mods and admins. How much objective sense does that make? How much of "higher cognitive faculties" are engaged in this case?

Were you worried about this guy using this forum to lead people astray so to speak? Is this what you mean?

Actually, this has everything to do with you. You do ask loaded questions. If you were to take yourself and any of your questions seriously, and follow through with them putting in some real effort, time and energy, it would help you. Instead like Buddy said, you choose to take the approach of "complain and soapbox". It goes nowhere. People have already spent a big chunk of effort to assuage such concerns as those raised by you, including specifically your concerns - it rarely goes anywhere without commensurate efforts on the part of the questioner.

OK, well thanks for your time. I will try not to "complain and soapbox." I would like to ask this question though: What are some of the assumptions which are implicit in my questions?