"Egregores: The Occult Entities That Watch Over Human Destiny" by Mark Stavish

[T.C.]

In his book, Stavish talks about the concept of ‘Egregores’, which have been known about and discussed in occult literature over the years, but haven’t really been brought into the mainstream before.

The theory is that when human beings form any kind of group, be it small and localised, or large and worldwide, their collective activities within the scope of the group form a kind of collective-unconsciously generated ‘thoughtform’ which eventually, given enough energy, literally takes on a life of its own, becomes real at the astral, cosmic level – we might say, at the hyperdimensional level. The members themselves then represent the physical body or form of the Egregore, as in the case of the Christian idea of the followers forming the 'body of Christ'.

The existence of the Egregore is, then, dependent on the group of humans who formed it, and it is fed primarily by their emotional energy, and also via things such as rituals, the strength of the belief in the ideas, ideologies or concepts which led to the Egregore’s formation, the strength of cohesion between the members, and even by the understanding or beliefs about the existence and activities of the group by people who are not even members.

Take a religion like Christianity, for example. You have the actual Christians with their beliefs and rituals, group identity, the large number of believers and their interactions with each other. These things all maintain and feed the Egregore of Christianity. There are also many people in the world who are not Christians but who are aware of Christianity and its existence, and this awareness and acknowledgement of the religion, even though the non-Christian isn’t involved in it, also feeds and maintains the Egregore.

The main point of the book seems to be that given enough power and energy, the Egregore can then exert influence and control over the members of its group, controlling them in order to influence them into acting in ways that maintain it. Since this is a violation of the free will of the members - a force acting on the individuals unconsciously - this is not a good thing, and that the aim for the spiritual seeker whose professed goal is to awaken and self-actualise is to identify the fact that they are under the control of and are part of an Egregore through their participation in a group and/or its related activities and to extricate themselves from this group and the Egregore’s influence.

The sticking points seem to be: 1) Is it possible to extricate oneself from the influence of one Egregore without coming under the influence of a different one? 2) Are all Egregores negative, or can there be positive ones?

As well as the idea that a group of people, coming together and joined by certain practices or ideas, unknowingly create and sustain the Egregore, Stavish also discusses related ideas about how people involved in occult and religious practices can intentionally and consciously create Egregores or other kinds of thoughtforms. In other words, rituals and visualisations of things which the practitioner intentionally imagines and focuses on and strengthens through concentration and imagination until said thoughtform becomes real. He also talks about battles between Egregores and that those battles manifest through their human representatives, i.e., one religious group’s persecution of another or even the Egregores of two opposing sports teams battling it out in a match.

Just as Mouravieff wrote about The Work from his heavy Christian perspective, it’s blatant that the author has spent his life studying the occult, probably has been a member of occult organisations. So one should bear that in mind when reading the book and attempting to derive anything objective from it. There is obviously a mass of ‘horizontal and vertical corroboration’, as Laura calls it, between many ideas in the book, and many of the ideas covered here on the forum and in the Cassiopaean material, Gurdjieff, Sufism, Castañeda.

The idea of Egregores as depicted raises many interesting questions. Is the idea that the Egregore is created from the ‘bottom up’, that is, created by humans, just a corruption and disinformation about the idea that large masses of humans are under the control of hyperdimensional denizens? Or, is there truth in the idea that a group of humans can, through their collective activities, actually ‘create’ some sort of hyperdimensional representative being, even without the knowledge that that is what they are actually doing?

The author is saying that if enough people break from the idea and control of an Egregore, that the Egregore is either completely destroyed or loses enough energy that it goes into a sort of hibernation which can last centuries, until another group of humans eventually come along and, through their activities, which are aligned with that Egregore’s frequency, revive it.

It's not a long book and there are lots of topics that could be the basis of an interesting thread. The book is available on kindle and in audiobook form as well, and is easily available.

 

[Eboard10]

Thanks for sharing T.C. I'm about a third into the book and there are concepts similar to what's discussed in the forum although discernment is highly advised given the nature of the subject.

The sticking points seem to be: 1) Is it possible to extricate oneself from the influence of one Egregore without coming under the influence of a different one? 2) Are all Egregores negative, or can there be positive ones?

In the book, Stavish brings up a mystic called Valentin Tomberg who asserts that all egregores are demonic in nature as they stem from man's desires and end up tying humanity to false ideals. In the context of Catholicism, he makes a clear distinction between the "mystical body of Christ" and the egregore of the Catholic Church establishment.

Here are some excerpts from the book regarding Tomberg's view:

If there are egregores of initiation orders and religious—and other—communities, they are always negative. The egregore of Catholicism, for example, is its parasitic double (the existence of which it would be futile to deny), which manifests itself as fanaticism, cruelty, “diplomatic wisdom” and excessive pretentions. But insofar as the positive spirits of communities are concerned, they are never egregores, but rather they are entities from the ten hierarchies (ten, because the tenth hierarchy—that of mankind—is included here). It is therefore a human soul, an Angel or an Archangel, who assumes responsibility for the direction of a human community in a positive sense. Thus, it is not at all an egregore but rather St. Francis himself who is the spiritual director of the Franciscan order. It is similarly so for the Church. Its guiding spirit is Jesus Christ

You cannot engender . . . an “egregore of universal love” because the quality of will and imagination required to this end is not held together as a formation centered in itself, but forms an alliance—one of “radiating movement”—with the activity of the world of spiritual hierarchies. The psychic and mental energy of love would never give rise to the formation of an individual psychic or “astral” entity; it would immediately and wholly put itself at the disposal of the celestial hierarchies, saints, and God. Therefore, although one can certainly engender demons, one cannot engender artificial Angels.

"Let us resign ourselves, therefore, to the Great Work of contributing constructively to tradition—the spiritual, Christian, Hermetic, scientific tradition. Let us thoroughly immerse ourselves in it, let us study it, let us practice it, lastly, let us cultivate it, i.e., let us work not in order to overthrow but in order to build. Let us range ourselves amongst the builders of the “great cathedral” of mankind’s spiritual tradition—and let us try to contribute to it. May the Holy Scriptures be holy for us; may the Sacraments be sacraments for us; may the hierarchy of spiritual authority be the hierarchy of authority for us; and may the “perennial philosophy”—and also truly scientific science—of the past and present have friends in us and, should it be the case, respectful collaborators! This is what the commandment to be silent entails—the commandment of not engendering demons."

Stavish seems to question the idea put forward by Tomberg, claiming that "we are being told to accept the egregore that is not an egregore" but my impression is that he's focusing more on semantics while Tomberg, although coloured by his own religious beliefs, seems to make a distinction more akin to the concepts of STS vs STO.

As well as the idea that a group of people, coming together and joined by certain practices or ideas, unknowingly create and sustain the Egregore, Stavish also discusses related ideas about how people involved in occult and religious practices can intentionally and consciously create Egregores or other kinds of thoughtforms. In other words, rituals and visualisations of things which the practitioner intentionally imagines and focuses on and strengthens through concentration and imagination until said thoughtform becomes real.

This topic might be addresses further in the book, but so far Stavish highlights that egregores are created by humans and doesn't seem to present the idea of spirits or entities attaching themselves to humans who open themselves up to these energies or align their FRV to that of these entities so to speak, but rather that one can become enslaved by its own artificial creation.

Still have plenty to go through, but so far this book is reminding me of the importance of taking care of one's mental hygiene and of having the faith of Jesus as outlined by Paul. Zoroaster's quote about "good thoughts, good words, good deeds" also comes to mind.

 

[T.C.]

I'll try to post some bits from the book with some observations of things that stood out to me. In the chapter on how egregores can war with each other, the author mentions a god of Tibetan Bhuddism. I found it interesting in light of the development of Yahweh from being a God of a single tribe, to becoming the overarching God of everything:

A MODERN EXAMPLE OF THE WAR OF THE EGREGOR

An example of the problems that can arise with the creation and worship of a being through the practice of rituals can easily be seen within the politics of modern Tibet itself. One of the most peculiar problems facing the Dalai Lama, even in exile, is the controversy over the worship of the popular Gelukpa protector deity Dorje Shugden. The gist of the problem comes from the activities of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and his particular movement, whose principal practice is that of Dorje Shugden.

While the main argument presented concerns religious freedom, or the freedom to worship Dorje Shugden, the ramifications are considerably greater. According to Isabel Hilton, in her book The Search for the Panchen Lama, “[Dorje Shugden] had the reputation of being able to impart enormous good fortune to his devotees but also of being extremely vindictive and jealous. One of the Dalai Lama’s tutors had encouraged the Dalai Lama himself to worship Dorje Shugden, but the Dalai Lama had decided, as a result of several dreams, that the deity was harmful. He gave up the practice himself, then banned it in all institutions that were connected with his person. This included Gelukpa monasteries and, of course, the government in exile."

Hilton further states, “The origins of the Dorje Shugden dispute lie deep in Gelukpa politics and a controversy too complicated to explore here. But the significance of it pertains to sectarianism in Tibetan Buddhism: the defenders of Dorje Shugden are characterized as Gelukpa fundamentalists who regard the Dalai Lama’s association with other Buddhist sects—an association greatly strengthened in exile—as a betrayal of the Gelukpa. By insisting on worshipping the deity, they attack the Dalai Lama’s authority as a true Gelukpa leader.”

As mentioned above, Dorje Shugden is in a class of beings thought to be protector deities. Who or what do they protect? Tibetan Buddhism, of course, and that means the Gelukpa version of Tibetan Buddhism. What makes this all the more difficult for many Western students to grasp is the severe sectarian nature of the forces at play here. Not only is Dorje Shugden considered a protector of the Gelukpa, but he is also considered a destroyer of “heretical Buddhist sects,” which would include the other schools of Tibetan and nonTibetan Buddhism. In fact, an argument has been made that this extends to all practices that are not Gelukpa.

So how did Dorje Shugden originate? Apparently, Shugden was only a minor protector (gylapo—angry or vengeful spirit) until the nineteenth century, when it became a tool for persecuting the evolving nonsectarian movement of the period. It should be noted that the Gelukpa were also the principal political force or administrative party in Tibet as well, with all Dalai Lamas having been Gelukpa (or related to it) since the installation of the office of the Dalai Lama at the hands of the Mongolians in 1642. As a result, some have seen the Chinese occupation and destruction of Tibet as punishment for—or at least as a result of —the inadequate worship of Dorje Shugden. This includes possible political intrigue around the cult and the court where practices related to Dorje Shugden continued to grow until the 1930s.

The next paragraph brought to mind the tale of how, when P. D. Ouspenski died, one of his students was able to create an ongoing connection to him in the afterlife. In the time before his death, Ouspenski had started some sort of regimen of ritual-like practices. Gurdjieff once said on the topic of reincarnation and life after death that through certain types of practices, a man may become 'an immortal thing', and this wasn't said in the sense of it being particularly desirable. Laura once speculated that this idea from Gurdjieff might have applied to what happened with Ouspenski.

In light of the below, was Ouspenski's student somehow feeding Ouspenki, or being fed on by him?

In Dorje Shugden we see a sort of apotheosis, or divinization of the human being—the source of the angry ghost often said to have been a condemned prisoner—who is then employed to protect the sect and its adherents. In some schools of occult practice this trapping of a spirit is often rationalized as a form of redemption for its sins. In others it is seen as a form of spiritual slavery, even if some form of payment is given, as the payment is little more than the food required to keep it alive and employed. It is conceivable that some esoteric teachers have taken their lead from this practice and, like the Egyptian pharaohs, seek to attain a sort of immortality through the prayers, offerings, and petitions of their disciples.

 

[T.C.]

More on the nature of the egregore and its influence. Here, the issue around whether an egregore is good or bad is said to be the responsibility of the members of the group. Does this contradict other ideas about the egregore taking on a life and identity of its own and then influencing the group members' actions?

In an article titled “The Egregore of a School,” published in 1970 by the Servants of the Light, Butler provides what was for decades a common manner of presenting the idea of an egregore among British-based occultists. What is critical is that in the very first line of the article Butler states that he is about to “speak about something that is very important but which is usually forgotten by the majority of esoteric students.” This fact is vital to an understanding of how the term and idea of an egregore became increasingly common in English language occult literature during the second half of the twentieth century.

In the article Butler goes on to point out, as have previous authorities, that the fundamental nature of the egregore consists of collective emotions and that the thoughtform itself is amoral, taking its directions from those connected to it.

From the inner point of view, we may see it as a composite thoughtform charged with emotional energy. This energy is evoked from all those who are linked with the thoughtform and, if there are those in the group who know something of the psychic mechanism involved, it can be directed upon any chosen target. It is obvious that such energy can be used for good or evil purposes, the intention of those who manipulate the energy within the collective thoughtform determining the way it is directed.

As a general rule, the thoughtform is built around some person or group of persons, and as the numbers admitted increase, so the power and range of the Egregore increases, and a peculiar reciprocal action takes place. Each member of the group pours energy into the collective thoughtform but, equally, into each member there also passes the influence of the group as a whole. This reverse action brings to light certain problems.

It is increasingly apparent to those outside the group that any member of it is being influenced to some degree by the pressure of the collective thinking of all linked with it, and unless care is taken, the power of independent thought may be reduced. For many people this is something they actually seek, they may feel inadequate in the everyday world and feel that by being linked in this way, they are protected from what they see as aggressive tendencies from other people. Or again, they may feel inadequate to deal with new ideas and situations and feel that the Group mind will do their thinking for them, and they will not be in danger of wrong thinking.

Both these tendencies are unhealthy but they are also common, more particularly in occult and religious or semi-religious circles. Indeed, where the mental and psychic conditions justify such domination by the collective Group mind for a limited period, such dependence upon the Egregore may even be remedial. But any organization, which makes such dependence mandatory upon all its members, is treading a dangerous and slippery path and will, sooner or later, come to grief.

 

[Arwenn]

Thanks for starting the thread TC. I am about half way through the book, it’s an interesting read so far. The creation of Egregores through a group of people from shared rituals, beliefs, ideologies made me think of the Wetiko virus & also Gustav Le Bon’s work on crowd psychology & how crowds can behave very differently compared to the individual. Le Bon claimed that "an individual immersed for some length of time in a crowd soon finds himself – either in consequence of magnetic influence given out by the crowd or from some other cause of which we are ignorant – in a special state, which much resembles the state of fascination in which the hypnotised individual finds himself in the hands of the hypnotizer.” Perhaps this is due to the creation of an Egregore? Truth Perspective did an excellent show on Le Bon’s work.

I also was thinking about the Bell Witch session with the Cs, where they said the Bell witch phenomenon was the result of some astral elements which piggy backed on to the window faller phenomenon. The Cs further elaborated that these astral elements were semi-demonic creatures of loosely coagulated consciousness units. Here is the snippet of the session:

Session 22 September 2018

So, we were wanting to ask a few questions about the Bell Witch case. Is that okay?

A: Ask away.

Q: (L) Okay, let me read a little passage, this is in 1817.
[...]
(L) Well, right there at the very beginning it sounds like classic Mothman almost. Window fallers.

( Artemis) And in a corn field? How creepy!

(L) Children of the Corn! So, what were these people witnessing when these manifestations began?

A: Fourth density window fallers.

Q: (L) Well, if they're 4th density window fallers, that suggests that there was a window that had opened up for them to fall through - right?

A: Yes
[...]
Q: (L) I asked Niall to check on any possible geological or any other kind of events at the time. What were the results? The New Madrid Earthquake was when?

(Niall) 1811 or 1812. Then there was a cholera outbreak in the Bell Witch region in the 1820s and again in the 1830s.
[...]

(L) So, it doesn't really look like anything is necessarily connected. What was the impetus for the opening of the window?

A: The Earth was still settling and did so for many years after. This creates good EM conditions for breaching of the curtain. In this case there were also some astral elements piggybacked on the faller phenomenon.

Q: (L) So when you say, "astral elements"...
(Joe) Hang on... I think the earthquake happened...

(L) When was the eruption of Krakatoa?

(Pierre) I think it was 1813?

(L) So Krakatoa I think was in 1818 or something? You gonna go check? There was possibly a lot going on then!

A: Indeed. The Earth was in stress!

Q: [Pierre returns] (Pierre) It's not 1818, Krakatoa erupted in 1883.

(L) There were probably other things happening, but we don’t know what they were because there weren't many people living around there to observe or record them. Okay, let's come back to the astral thing. You said, "astral elements piggybacked". What are these astral elements?

A: Semi-demonic creatures.

Q: (L) How can you be semi-demonic?!
(Artemis) They just don't go full-on demonic! [laughter]

(Joe) They’re only demonic at night time.

A: Loosely coagulated consciousness units.

Q: (L) So you mean what I always call elementals or thought forms?

A: Yes. But in this case, the elemental collected much energy and condensed to a greater degree.

Q: (L) Well, let me go to my little book again here... So, they gave it a name: Kate. And I'm sure that by giving it a name, they helped it condense even more and gave it energy. So, it says:

Mr. Bell now felt a strange affliction coming on him, which he could not account for. It was stiffness of the tongue, which came suddenly, and for a time, when these spells were on, he could not eat. He described it as feeling like a small stick of wood crosswise in his mouth, pressing out both cheeks, and when he attempted to eat it would push the victuals out of his mouth.

John Bell endured such things for a long time, perhaps a year or more, hoping that the disturbance would cease, charging his family to keep the matter a profound secret, and they were loyal in their obedience. As frightful as were the demonstrations, not a single neighbor or friend outside of the family had any knowledge of the facts until the affliction became insufferable, when Mr. Bell, in strict confidence, laid the matter before James Johnson and wife, narrating circumstances, insisting that they should spend a night at his house, hoping that Mr. Johnson could throw some light on the mystery. The wish was very cordially acceded to, and at the hour of retirement Mr. Johnson led in family worship, as was his custom, reading a chapter, singing a hymn, and then offering prayer. He prayed very earnestly and fervently for a revelation of the cause, or that the Lord would remove the disturbance. As soon as all were in bed and the lights extinguished, the frightful racket commenced, and presently entered Mr. and Mrs. Johnson's room with increased demonstrations, stripping the cover from their bed. Mr. Johnson was astounded and sat upright in bed in wild amazement; but he was a man of strong faith and cool courage, and recovering from the confusion he collected his wits and commenced talking to the spectre, adjuring it to reveal itself and tell for what purpose it was there. The effect of the entreaty convinced Mr. Johnson that the demonstrations came from an intelligent source of some character, but beyond this he had no conception whatever. He however insisted that Mr. Bell should let the matter be known, and call in other friends to assist in the further investigation. This was agreed to, and there was no end to the number of visitors and investigations. Kate, however, developed more rapidly, and soon in answer to the many entreaties, commenced talking, and among the first vocal demonstrations, repeated Mr. Johnson's song and prayer offered on the night of the first visit, referred to, word for word, personating the old gentleman, assimilating his character so perfectly that no one could distinguish it from his voice and prayer.

Kate... made great pretensions for religion taking Mr. Johnson for a model of Christianity, calling him "Old Sugar Mouth," frequently observing, "Lord Jesus, how sweet Old Sugar Mouth prays; how I do love to hear him." Kate delighted in Scriptural controversies, could quote any text or passage in the Bible, and was able to maintain a discussion with the ablest of theologians, excelling in fervency of prayer and devotional songs - no human voice was so sweet. Kate made frequent visits to North Carolina, John Bell's old neighborhood, never absent longer than a day or an hour, but always reporting correctly the news or events of the day in that vicinity. With all of these excellent traits of character, Kate behaved badly toward visitors and all members of the family except Mrs. Lucy Bell, to whom the witch was devoted, declaring that "Old Luce" was a good woman, but manifesting very great aversion for "Old Jack" - John Bell, Sr. He was most detestable and loathsome in the eyes of Kate, for which no cause was ever assigned. But the witch often declared its purpose of killing him before leaving the place.

(L) Alright, so why was this creature/elemental so averse to John Bell and favorable towards his wife? And why did it determine to kill him?

A: The elemental fed on the suffering of both, but more particularly the wife.

Q: (Joe) That's interesting. It's out for the husband, but what about the effects on everyone in the family as a result of him being tormented and it getting worse and worse. Everybody's suffering!

(L) Yeah, the wife was suffering terribly. She even got sick at one point and almost died.

(Joe) The part when they said that after many entreaties to speak, eventually it did... What the hell did they want it to speak for? If something is running around slapping you and gnawing on the bedposts, I don't want to hear from it, ya know?

(L) So here... It says:

Kate the witch never slept, was never idle or confined to any place, but was here and there and everywhere, like the mist of night or the morning sunbeams, was everything and nothing, invisible yet present, spreading all over the neighborhood, prying into everybody's business and domestic affairs; caught on to every ludicrous thing that happened, and all of the sordid, avaricious meanness that transpired; divining the inmost secrets of the human heart, and withal, was a great blab mouth; getting neighbors by the ears, taunting people with their sins and short-comings, and laughing at their folly in trying to discover the identity of the mystery. Kate, however, held fast to Christianity, and was a regular fire-eating Methodist while associating with "Old Sugar Mouth" and his son, Calvin Johnson; was a regular attendant at Mr. Johnson's prayer meetings, calling the amens, thumping on the chairs, and uttering the exclamation "Lord Jesus."

People now concluded that a good spirit had been sent to the community to work wonders and prepare the good at heart for the second advent. Kate's influence was something like that exercised over a "whiskey-soaked town" by Rev. Sam Jones at the present day, only more forceful. [...]

Citizens of the community soon learned to respect Kate's presence and councils, as they feared and abominated the witch's scorpion tongue. Everybody got good; the wicked left off swearing, lying and whiskey drinking, just as people do now for Rev. Sam Jones. The avaricious were careful not to covet or lay hands on that which belonged to their neighbors, lest Kate might tell on them. [...]

No incident out of the regular routine of every day transactions occurred that the witch did not know all about the affair, and would tell the circumstance to someone in less than an hour.

What a great factor in politics this warlock would be at the present time?

(L) [laughter] Yeah... So, what the hell kind of a "thing" can... It was everywhere at once! It was telling on everybody! It's just insane.

( Artemis) It was like a 6-year-old gossipy kid.

A: As more people became involved, the elemental had more conduits of energy and information.

Q: (Pierre) Does it suggest that it was a 2-way street and that the involvement of people believing in it was a necessary condition for this entity to get this information?

A: Yes absolutely!

Q: (L) I don't think it was so much believing in it, but being attracted to it.

(Andromeda) Fascinated by it.

(L) If you really understood what it was, you'd be wanting to cut off the energy, assuming that that's even possible... When you're talking about a situation that's partially caused by environmental factors...

(Andromeda) What do you do?

(Joe) It can take off and harass someone else.

(L) Look at Mothman. Look at the Skinwalker business. Good grief!

(Pierre) I think there's another factor. Those window fallers take advantage of this Earth upheaval to enter 3rd density. Why did this entity go to this family? Because they were juicy?

A: Location was beneficial to the energies.

Q: (Pierre) So they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

(L) Well, it's true that having that kind of... I mean, geez! If you could have that kind of information...

(Joe) No... It's not a one-way street in that respect. It's not free.

A: Remember free will and the necessity to choose from what is inside.

Q: (Joe) And I'm sure they have no problem lying to you.

(L) Yeah, that's true. It sure did lie! You'd never know.

(Joe) It could start telling the truth and then throw in lies once it has your trust.

(L) Well, have we had enough on the Bell Witch? We have a pretty good idea of what was going on. Wait, why did it end?

A: The energies of the location dissipated. [/url]

 

[Arwenn]

This topic might be addresses further in the book, but so far Stavish highlights that egregores are created by humans and doesn't seem to present the idea of spirits or entities attaching themselves to humans who open themselves up to these energies or align their FRV to that of these entities so to speak, but rather that one can become enslaved by its own artificial creation.

Perhaps in the above case of the Bell Witch, it was a case of multiple factors (EM factors due to earth stress, window fallers, astral elements) that led to the creation of the phenomenon/apparition of the Bell Witch. It then grew & fed on the belief & suffering of those who it preyed on, until the energies dissipated & it could no longer survive. So maybe not exactly what Stavish calls an Egregore, but something similar?

Still have plenty to go through, but so far this book is reminding me of the importance of taking care of one's mental hygiene and of having the faith of Jesus as outlined by Paul. Zoroaster's quote about "good thoughts, good words, good deeds" also comes to mind.

I was thinking the same, especially with hyperkinetic sensate/intense emotions. If ‘thoughts made manifest’ can create these kinds of ‘beings’, then all the more importance placed on mental & psychic hygiene.

 

[mkrnhr]

Perhaps in the above case of the Bell Witch, it was a case of multiple factors (EM factors due to earth stress, window fallers, astral elements) that led to the creation of the phenomenon/apparition of the Bell Witch. It then grew & fed on the belief & suffering of those who it preyed on, until the energies dissipated & it could no longer survive. So maybe not exactly what Stavish calls an Egregore, but something similar?

The Bell Witch came to mind as well in regards to Egregors. In this case, an egregor grew out of a window faller or local paranormal thought-form. In other cases, egregors grow from an thought that's completely made-up, but it is difficult to think of a concept or idea that's made up out of thin air. Maybe some human picks up an idea from the "ether", kind of embryonic thought-form, develops it, passes it to other humans, and the collective emotional focus feeds the egregor until it becomes its own thing. Most religions appeared during Earth turmoils, and accompanying human emotional turmoils. In addition to that, there is this idea that 4D denizens "teach" things to humans throughout history. Maybe these "teachings", through subsequent feedback loops with humans, made them gods and goddesses.
Speculation of course.

 

[Altair]

The sticking points seem to be: 1) Is it possible to extricate oneself from the influence of one Egregore without coming under the influence of a different one? 2) Are all Egregores negative, or can there be positive ones?

This reminded me of the Ibn Al-Arabi's concept of divine names. From The Sufi Path Of Knowledge by William C. Chittick:

His Essence in Itself remains forever unknown to the creatures, while He is Manifest in as much as the cosmos reveals something of His names and attributes. The question arises as to which divine attributes are revealed by the divine acts. The answer is that, generally speaking, every name of God has loci of manifestation (mazdhir; sing.: mazhar) in the cosmos, some obvious and some hidden. The universe as a whole manifests all the names of God. Within the existent things is found every attribute of Being in some mode or another.

[...]

All things in the universe manifest the effects and properties of the divine names. Even the conflict, quarrel, strife, and war that are found in created things have their roots in God. The cosmos is a great collection of things, and things go their own ways, not necessarily in harmony with other things on the level where they are being considered. The names relate to each other in many different modes, some harmonious, and some sufficiently disharmonious that lbn al-'Arabi can even talk about "conflict" among the names.

The "Divine Conflict" has neverending repercussions in this world and the next, since all change and transformation can be traced back to it. In one passage the Shaykh discusses the divine root of "calling" (nidii'), as, for example, when God calls out in the Koran, "O you who have faith. . . !" He explains that diversity and conflict in the cosmos stem from the fact that different names
call the creatures in different directions.

You should know that the divine call includes believer and unbeliever, obedient and disobedient .... This call derives only from the divine names. One divine name calls to someone who is governed by the property of a second divine name when it knows that the term of the second name's property within the person has come to an end. Then this name which calls to him takes over. So it continues in this world and the next. Hence everything other than God is called by a divine name to come to an engendered state to which that name seeks to attach it. If the object of the call responds, he is named "obedient" and becomes "felicitous. If he does not respond, he is named "disobedient" and becomes "wretched".

You may object and say: "How can a divine name call and the engendered thmg refuse to respond, given that it is weak and must accept the divine power?" We will answer: It does not refuse to respond in respect of itself and its own reality, since it is constantly overpowered. But since it is under the overpowering sway of a divine name, that name does not let it respond to the name which calls to it. Hence there is conflict among the divine names. However, the names are equals. so the ruling property belongs to the actual possessor, which is the name in whose hand the thing is when the second name calls to it. The possessor is stronger through the situation.

You may object: "Then why is a person taken to task for his refusal?" We answer: Because he claims the refusal for himself and does not ascribe it to the divine name which controls him. You may object: "The situation stays the same, since he refuses only because of the overpowering sway of a divine name. The person who is called refused because of the name." We answer: That is true, but he is ignorant of that, so he is taken to task for his ignorance (jahl), for the ignorance belongs to himself.

You may object: "But his ignorance derives from a divine name whose property governs him." We answer: Ign?rancc is a quality pertaining to nonex1stence (amr 'adami'); it is not ontological. But the divine names bestow only existence; they do not bestow nonexistence. So the ignorance belongs to the very self of him who is called.

[...]

The prophets are God's sincere servants, not being owned by their own caprice or that of any of God's creatures. But they say, "My wage falls only on Allah" (Koran 10:72, 11:29, 34:47). This goes back to their entrance under the properties of the divine names, from whence wages are paid. Through compulsion and in reality they are the servants and the possession of the Essence. But the divine names seek them to make their effects manifest through them. So they have free choice (ikhtiyiir) in entering under whichever name they desire. The divine names know this, so the divine names designate wages for them. Each divine name wants this slave of the Essence to choose to serve (khidma) it rather than the other divine names. It says to him, "Enter under my command, for I will give you such and such." Then he remains in the service of that name until he is called by the Lord in respect of his servanthood to the Essence. At that point he abandons every divine name and undertakes the call of his Lord. Once he has done what He commands him to do, he returns to whichever name he pleases.

 

[Konstantin]

I just finished the book and I can say it was very, very interesting and made me stop reading at the moment and think and compare real situations with the material that I read.

The idea of Egregores as depicted raises many interesting questions. Is the idea that the Egregore is created from the ‘bottom up’, that is, created by humans, just a corruption and disinformation about the idea that large masses of humans are under the control of hyperdimensional denizens? Or, is there truth in the idea that a group of humans can, through their collective activities, actually ‘create’ some sort of hyperdimensional representative being, even without the knowledge that that is what they are actually doing?

Well, I think that it is both true. Hyperdimensional beings can influence and control people in 3D, but also people in 3D can create these astral energetical begins.
Maybe Hyperdimensional beings can imprint some thought, or idea into the human mind and these people then create an "egregore", that can be used by Hyperdimensional beings as a feeding conduit. Who knows? Maybe this can be a question for the next session.

Still have plenty to go through, but so far this book is reminding me of the importance of taking care of one's mental hygiene and of having the faith of Jesus as outlined by Paul. Zoroaster's quote about "good thoughts, good words, good deeds" also comes to mind.

The same thought was in my mind while reading the book. At the same time, I remembered something that Cs said in one session a long time ago, that our mind is a tool with which we can create and destroy whole universes, or something similar to that. I don't remember the words exactly.

It also gives a better perspective of how this material world is so much entangled with the unmaterial world. Today's materialistic science is not recognizing these aspects of existence and interaction with our 3D material reality.

Mental and spiritual hygiene is very important because we can create or become a part of some "egregore", or thought form.

I never quite understood the purpose of the secret societies and rituals. Except for their possible knowledge about other hyperdimensional spheres of existence. I never understood the rituals and what can they achieve with them.
Now, I get it much better perspective.

I don't even want to think about what huge Western media propaganda created especially in the last few years.
With so much energy and emotions ( and money of course) invested in the Covid Propaganda and vaccination, they created a monster that still feeds from the people's suffering.

 

[ryu]

Thank you @T.C. for starting the thread. I'm nearly done reading it. It's very interesting but chilling at the same time. I wonder if those egregors or at least some of them are what we call demons, or if they can become 4D STS denizens. They really seem to be the dragons from the old legends who can sleep for centuries and then awaken and destroy everything in its wake.

One aspect of the book that caught my attention is the spiritual side of conflicts and wars between countries or factions. The woke or nazi ideologies can be seen as an invasion on the nations' own egregores or spirit. Even foreign religions can be seen as an attack on a nation's egregor.
On a sinister note, it's probably why Notre Dame de Paris was destroyed by fire and not by other means. The Cs said it was an attack on our Lady's Mother. But I didn't realised that by burning it, they tried to sever the connection between the Mother and its people a.k.a. the French population. If such a thing works, it's giving a whole new aspect to the anti-christian campaign we see in western countries. They are trying to cut off people from the light and knowledge and to enslave them. I knew it on some level, but this book explain this aspect plainly.

Spoiler: Destruction of an egregore

To remove oneself from the influence of an egregore, particularly a religious,
esoteric, or even political one (especially when a ritualistic formula is actively
present, such as in National Socialism, Communism, any form of idealization of
the leader or the particular creed or code), the objects connected with the
organization or movement must be destroyed. Fire is the principal means of
separating the energetic link and destroying it. This separation and destruction is
on a personal level but can also be extended to the larger group as well.
That is why occupying armies often destroy the symbols of their defeated
enemy. For example, the revolutionaries in France in 1789, the Soviet Union to
Nazi Germany in 1945, the Chinese Communists in Tibet in 1959, the period of
the Cultural Revolution from 1966 to 1976, and the destruction of monuments,
texts, and places of worship by various Islamic fundamentalist paramilitary
forces are among the most obvious examples in modern history. While the
spiritual or intelligence aspect of the egregore will continue to live for a very
long period of time without a physical anchor, devotees, or rituals to feed it, its
emotional or astral counterpart will not be able to sustain a presence in the
physical world as a result of such acts of destruction.
Hence, some egregores may be reinvigorated even after centuries or
millennia of disuse, which is a closely kept secret of operational magic.
According to an article published in 1929 in an esoteric journal edited by Julius
Evola, and detailed in appendix 2 of this book, it was efforts to revive the
egregore of the Roman Empire that led to the political ascendancy of Benito
Mussolini. The initial signs were “seen” in 1913 and were fully realized in 1919.
This means that according to tradition, an egregore can be modified, with an
existing weak or even “dead egregore” (of a long since vanished cult) being
easier to modify during the process of its revival than an existing strong and vital
one. This is what we may be seeing when we are told of the cyclic opening and
reawakening of Christian Rosenkreutz from his “tomb.”
When ancient books or other objects or people were ritually destroyed by
fire, the phrase “and not even their names or signs remain” is taken to mean a
complete obliteration of the physical representations of the cult so that its
egregore will have no contact point in the physical world. This may be the
reason that, whereas common malefactors were traditionally hung (or in the
Roman Empire crucified), and higher-class offenders were beheaded (a privilege
accorded to St. Paul and later to kings and queens), witches and heretics were
burned at the stake.

This destruction by fire to cut the link between the egregors and "its" humans is maybe why we are periodically bombarded by comets. If Humanity is so enslaved that it cannot liberate itself from egregores anymore, cutting the link by fire becomes necessary. It will kill-off most of those who are enslaved, and the survivors will be able to start anew. At least the opportunity will be there, but it's a harsh method.

 

[Laura]

Just a note: The guy who wrote the forward to the Egregore book, James Wasserman, was a "longtime proponent of the teachings of Aleister Crowley". This is according to the forward to his own book, "In the Center of the Fire".

I think we should keep in mind what Gurdjieff had to say about Crowley after Crowley had visited him. Can anybody find that passage? Anyway, Gurdjieff's reaction to him was very similar to my own. Crowley's autobiography is one of the few books I've ever burned. I thought it was just too loaded with evil to even give it away.

 

[Maat]

I'm not done with it yet, but I'm not very enthusiastic so far, because all I read is a lot of statements, that could be interesting in themselves, but there are no demonstrations. Yes, like others, I can think of several things, but those things can also be explained with other concepts. I'm not denying the concept of egregore in itself, in fact, I don't know, but from the beginning, I found that maybe he was generalizing the idea way too much.

The link with Crowley noted above by Laura helped me to put my finger more precisely about what is bother me : with this overgeneralization, it's like things can easily be inverted, all is the creation of men, God is just an egregore, a very SDS flavour, black magick and all that.

But, like I said, I've not finished it yet and maybe the fact that English is not my mothertongue makes me miss some nuances.

Anyway, I will follow this discussion with interest and see where it goes.

 

[T.C.]

I think we should keep in mind what Gurdjieff had to say about Crowley after Crowley had visited him. Can anybody find that passage?

The published accounts of Crowley at the Prieure speak only of a brief visit and a vaguely sinister impression. Nott records that Crowley spoke to one of the children present about his son whom he was teaching to be a devil. “Gurdjieff got and spoke to the boy, who thereupon took no further notice of Crowley.” But the magician’s visit was extensive, and his confrontation with Gurdjieff of a more epic nature.

Crowley arrived for a whole weekend and spent the time like any other visitor to the Prieure; being shown the grounds and the activities in progress, listening to Gurdjieff’s music and his oracular conversation. Apart from some circumspection, Gurdjieff treated him like any other guest until the evening of his departure. After dinner on Sunday night, Gurdjieff led the way out of the dining room with Crowley, followed by the body of pupils who had also been at the meal. Crowley made his way toward the door and turned to take his leave of Gurdjieff, who by this time was some way up the stairs to the second floor. “Mister, you go?” Gurdjieff inquired. Crowley assented. “You have been guest?” – a fact which the visitor could hardly deny. “Now you go, you are no longer guest?” Crowley – no doubt wondering whether his host had lost his grip on reality and was wandering in a semantic wilderness – humored his mood by indicating that he was on his way back to Paris. But Gurdjieff, having made the point that he was not violating the canons of hospitality, changed on the instant into the embodiment of righteous anger. “You filthy,” he stormed, “you dirty inside! Never again you set foot in my house!” From his vantage point on the stairs, he worked himself up into a rage which quite transfixed his watching pupils. Crowley was stigmatized as the sewer of creation was taken apart and trodden into the mire. Finally, he was banished in the style of East Lynne by a Gurdjieff in fine histrionic form. Whitefaced and shaking, the Great Beast crept back to Paris with his tail between his legs.

 

[Jimmy Ssaz]

In his book, Stavish talks about the concept of ‘Egregores’, which have been known about and discussed in occult literature over the years, but haven’t really been brought into the mainstream before.

The theory is that when human beings form any kind of group, be it small and localised, or large and worldwide, their collective activities within the scope of the group form a kind of collective-unconsciously generated ‘thoughtform’ which eventually, given enough energy, literally takes on a life of its own, becomes real at the astral, cosmic level – we might say, at the hyperdimensional level. The members themselves then represent the physical body or form of the Egregore, as in the case of the Christian idea of the followers forming the 'body of Christ'.

The existence of the Egregore is, then, dependent on the group of humans who formed it, and it is fed primarily by their emotional energy, and also via things such as rituals, the strength of the belief in the ideas, ideologies or concepts which led to the Egregore’s formation, the strength of cohesion between the members, and even by the understanding or beliefs about the existence and activities of the group by people who are not even members.

Take a religion like Christianity, for example. You have the actual Christians with their beliefs and rituals, group identity, the large number of believers and their interactions with each other. These things all maintain and feed the Egregore of Christianity. There are also many people in the world who are not Christians but who are aware of Christianity and its existence, and this awareness and acknowledgement of the religion, even though the non-Christian isn’t involved in it, also feeds and maintains the Egregore.

The main point of the book seems to be that given enough power and energy, the Egregore can then exert influence and control over the members of its group, controlling them in order to influence them into acting in ways that maintain it. Since this is a violation of the free will of the members - a force acting on the individuals unconsciously - this is not a good thing, and that the aim for the spiritual seeker whose professed goal is to awaken and self-actualise is to identify the fact that they are under the control of and are part of an Egregore through their participation in a group and/or its related activities and to extricate themselves from this group and the Egregore’s influence.

The sticking points seem to be: 1) Is it possible to extricate oneself from the influence of one Egregore without coming under the influence of a different one? 2) Are all Egregores negative, or can there be positive ones?

As well as the idea that a group of people, coming together and joined by certain practices or ideas, unknowingly create and sustain the Egregore, Stavish also discusses related ideas about how people involved in occult and religious practices can intentionally and consciously create Egregores or other kinds of thoughtforms. In other words, rituals and visualisations of things which the practitioner intentionally imagines and focuses on and strengthens through concentration and imagination until said thoughtform becomes real. He also talks about battles between Egregores and that those battles manifest through their human representatives, i.e., one religious group’s persecution of another or even the Egregores of two opposing sports teams battling it out in a match.

Just as Mouravieff wrote about The Work from his heavy Christian perspective, it’s blatant that the author has spent his life studying the occult, probably has been a member of occult organisations. So one should bear that in mind when reading the book and attempting to derive anything objective from it. There is obviously a mass of ‘horizontal and vertical corroboration’, as Laura calls it, between many ideas in the book, and many of the ideas covered here on the forum and in the Cassiopaean material, Gurdjieff, Sufism, Castañeda.

The idea of Egregores as depicted raises many interesting questions. Is the idea that the Egregore is created from the ‘bottom up’, that is, created by humans, just a corruption and disinformation about the idea that large masses of humans are under the control of hyperdimensional denizens? Or, is there truth in the idea that a group of humans can, through their collective activities, actually ‘create’ some sort of hyperdimensional representative being, even without the knowledge that that is what they are actually doing?

The author is saying that if enough people break from the idea and control of an Egregore, that the Egregore is either completely destroyed or loses enough energy that it goes into a sort of hibernation which can last centuries, until another group of humans eventually come along and, through their activities, which are aligned with that Egregore’s frequency, revive it.

It's not a long book and there are lots of topics that could be the basis of an interesting thread. The book is available on kindle and in audiobook form as well, and is easily available.

The egregor could be similar to the multidimensional window falls i.e. when there is a 4d bleed and a creature comes out that in a certain place starts to wreak havoc in this case its manifestation time depends on the fear that empower viewers + fear + manifests itself? I mean there could be positive egregores? You mention the body of christ I think the C's said that the ritual of eating the body of christ is actually another meaning that was modified before it was about the body of Mother Earth that sustains us and gives us food and her blood would be the water of the Earth.

 

[Alana]

I am almost done reading the book and like some of you, I too have wondered whether Stavish is a man with a hammer who sees everything as a nail. Kind of like the anthropogenic global warming alarmists who blame humans for cosmic factors that have affected the Earth for ages.

I wouldn't deny that the creation of "egregores" by humans doesn't happen in the ways he describes, it is probable that it does, but I don't think that it occurs to the extent he seems to believe. If he takes into account the reality of hyperdimensional beings and their control over humanity for millennia it will explain a lot of his observations. And perhaps people who delve into dark magic and occult subjects don't always create these beings but attract them instead.

In a way, he seems to support individualism while generating alarm regarding the formation of groups. What he doesn't take into account is the idea of soul groups as described in the literature regarding life after death. He also seems to lack the psychological awareness that one person on their own cannot see their blindspots let alone the reality around them as objectively as possible, and a group of people is needed to help keep each other aware and awake (as he prescribes) in order to reach as much freedom as possible from the control system into which they are enslaved.

I don't know, I still have some more to read and I am still thinking about it all, those are just my first impressions.