Egypt Boiling Over

[Aeneas]

Sadly, the Israeli political elite will not react well to their "worst nightmare" appearing to come true, and their response will only make matters worse for them and the millions of people in the region.

I also wonder about what the C's said at one time about Israel making a mistake. Perhaps that mistake has already been made and we just not being privy to what it was or whether that mistake is still to come. Interesting times indeed and how it will pan out.

 

[monksgirl]

The Israeli and American stance on these events is disturbing to me. Looking at it without even taking earth changes into account...this is happening in several countries simultaneously. The number of people engaging in the uprisings are surprising even to the people -in- them. Mubarak has spent the last 30 years enjoying the support of the US and Israel, thinking that his back is covered, and suddenly, it is not. The tactics are suspiciously reminiscent of similar Zionist maneuvers. Control the mob...but to what end?

What better way to put Israel back in the "beleaguered and helpless" corner...in this time when Israel is in the spotlight more than ever for their human rights violations in Palestine, when countries around the world are beginning to recognize Palestine as a sovereign nation by upgrading their missions to embassies, and a US senator proposes cutting $3B sent to Israel for their defense. Who benefits from these apparent "people power" events? I believe Israel is sparking these revolts, so they will be surrounded by volatile new fundamentalist Islamic regimes, for the sole purpose of projecting the illusion of "defenselessness" that they've used repeatedly in the past to justify aggressions. Oh, and $3B (or more) a year doesn't hurt, either.

Whitebear, I think you are dead on the money with this assessment; my spin on this is that I think it was tme to blow up the rest of the world now that the banksters have stolen trillions, and there is a growing undercurrent of ending the Fed (the bankster money machine). The disaffection has been there in the Mideast for decades, it only needed the right impetus to explode, and the Zionist machinists have long experience in creating revolutions.

 

[luke wilson]

Who the hell is egypt? or Tunisia? Somebody had to die for that thing to happen!


Has anyone seen those videos posted on sott of those protesters being run over by those cars?

Are they egypt?

This people are fighting for an illusion. Fighting for an egypt that doesnt exist except on paper and in there minds... This is a poor substitute for fighting for freedom - this is what we have been reduced to. I get that this people want change... But the change they are asking for wont come, unless a miracle happens.

It'll be a case of - if they succeed - meet the new boss, same as the old, and that is if the world doesnt go upside down due to global natural catastrophes....

I'd like to think that what we are seeing here, is history in the making in cosmic terms for planet earth... The dying embers of passing on responsibilty away from the self. This whole house of cards has to fall.... Not that I am downplaying the significance of the protests, more to the contrary.

 

[mkrnhr]

Luke Wilson,

Who are you you to judge people like that?

These people are fighting for the last breath they have, for they have suffered one of the worst military dictatures for more than thirty years. At least the try to do something about it. How could you judge someone to want to live a better life?

So you know that catastrophes are coming, and a corrupt political system always relaces a corrupt political system. Is that a reason to do nothing? Or you feel superior for knowing that and the "other people" not knowing? What about external consideration? What about empathy?

And then, what do you know about their karma? What if they Karma is to fight for freedom, whataver the result is? What about yours? What about your role in this universe? At least these people are trying to make things better, they fight for an idea, for their children. Even if they fail, at least they tried.

If you cannot feel compassion for other people's suffering, then so you have a problem.

 

[luke wilson]

Luke Wilson,

Who are you you to judge people like that?

These people are fighting for the last breath they have, for they have suffered one of the worst military dictatures for more than thirty years. At least the try to do something about it. How could you judge someone to want to live a better life?

So you know that catastrophes are coming, and a corrupt political system always relaces a corrupt political system. Is that a reason to do nothing? Or you feel superior for knowing that and the "other people" not knowing? What about external consideration? What about empathy?

And then, what do you know about their karma? What if they Karma is to fight for freedom, whataver the result is? What about yours? What about your role in this universe? At least these people are trying to make things better, they fight for an idea, for their children. Even if they fail, at least they tried.

If you cannot feel compassion for other people's suffering, then so you have a problem.

Sorry, I am not judging. Just stating what I truly feel.

These people are dying. When people mention, Egyptians, or Tunisians or whatever other people are involved, they forget to mention that they are people, individuals. You, say they are fighting for the last breath they have. For some, it has been there last breath. Who is talking about them? Who is remembering them? They'll throw a number out like, 600 dead or something like that. But those are 600 individual people with there own individual stories. That is what they'll be remembered as, by people like us, 600 protesters killed... Reduced to that, not people with there own stories.

I am not judging. Sorry if it came across like that.

Human Life is not cheap and am sorry but, if a person is going to lose there life, they might as well lose it for something real. To lose life for an illusion is cheap and sad. Yes, they are fighting for there last breath, but what exactly is there last breath? Tell that to there families or people who love them... They would have much preffered for that person to be at home, or somewhere else, not where they ended up dying...

I am not trying to put myself anywhere in this picture, chances are I am nothing compared to these people. As you say, they have played there role in the universe. They have given there life. I have done nothing nor do I try and compare but that doesnt stop me from thinking that the 'idea' they are giving there lives for is a manufactured idea... What kind of thing is this, like cinema, where we sit and watch them on TV? Those are real people down there being pushed around like puppets... Am sorry, it's a good thing that they are supposedly fighting for an idea but it is a sad thing, the price the unlucky ones pay. I question the idea. Egypt, or Tunisia or any other name of a country. Is that an idea worth dying for? I know that the world isnt an entirely pretty place, but that doesnt mean, I should feel happy seeing them protest, because for some it costs them lives or who knows what else - what dreadful stories lie hidden underneath the headlines that no one will ever get to hear about apart from those who suffer it all in the mask of an 'idea.'

You know, am just going to ask. Tell me what those people are fighting for? Tell me, how what they are doing now, will deliver them into what they hope for? Then when all the dust has settled, we'll see if it was worth it. If it cycles back into another tyrannical system, it definately wasnt worth it. I am sure the cameras will role away as soon as the protests go, onto some new unfortunate country, to watch more bloodshed and more reporters writing nice little pieces about freedom and standing up to the big guy. But oh, wait, more people die, more people suffer, a few pieces get moved on a chess board, no one remembers the little man on the street that paid the ultimate price. Beautiful Idea. Beautiful world. You know, I dont know why I am valueing life that much anyways, it seems death is equally as valuable - it appears it is a beautiful thing to die for an idea. Maybe they should just keep on dying. Who cares... Not like the world will stop spinning on its axis or anything like that. It's not like anyone is losing any sleep over it.

I apologise for expressing myself in my original post. You can judge me all you want.

 

[realitybugll]

mkrnhr,

I wish I could express myself better at the moment... more clear and with logic... but I am trying and its not really happening. so just the following:

So you know that catastrophes are coming, and a corrupt political system always relaces a corrupt political system. Is that a reason to do nothing?

well... this is big question to tackle. I can't formulate an answer at the moment.

I'm having trouble here writing, but uh, I think that what Luke Wilson says is accurate in a sense. It is part of the picture. Right now 4D sts are running the show. this revolution is no doubt part of it. One of the mods in this thread has been analyzing this aspect. At the same time, to me, there is "free will"... and so this has to be looked at too.

Who are you you to judge people like that?...
How could you judge someone to want to live a better life?...
what do you know about their karma?...
Or you feel superior for knowing that and the "other people" not knowing? What about external consideration? What about empathy?...
If you cannot feel compassion for other people's suffering, then so you have a problem.

To me it appears like you had a strong reaction to what Luke Wilson wrote. I did not see his post like you did. I think both of what Luke Wilson and you said can go together. One can see the revolution for what it is, a bunch of people (asleep) "stirred up" and playing right into the hands of 4d STS but at the same time still have empathy. I think.

here is some words from Gurdjieff... maybe this is what Luke Wilson is getting at. It is what his writing reminded me of.

"To establish this fact for oneself, to understand it, to be convinced of its truth, means getting rid of a thousand illusions about man, about his being creative and consciously organizing his own life, and so on. There is nothing of this kind. Everything happens—popular movements, wars, revolutions, changes of government, all this happens. And it happens in exactly the same way as everything happens in the life of individual man. Man is born, lives, dies, builds houses, writes books, not as he wants to, but as it happens. Everything happens. Man does not love, hate, desire—all this happens.
"But no one will ever believe you if you tell him he can do nothing. This is the most offensive and the most unpleasant thing you can tell people. It is particularly unpleasant and offensive because it is the truth, and nobody wants to know the truth.
"When you understand this it will be easier for us to talk. But it is one thing to understand with the mind and another thing to feel it with one's "whole mass,' to be really convinced that it is so and never forget it.

about war this also kind of relates to me

"If a sufficient number of men came to a definite conclusion that there should be no war, could they not influence others?"
"Those who dislike war have been trying to do so almost since the creation of the world," said G. "And yet there has never been such a war as the present. Wars are, not decreasing, they are increasing and war cannot be stopped by ordinary means. All these theories about universal peace,about peace conferences, and so on, are again simply laziness and hypocrisy. Men do not want to think about themselves, do not want to work on themselves, but think of how to make other people do what they want. If a sufficient number of people who wanted to stop war really did gather together they would first of all begin by making war upon those who disagreed with them. And it is still more certain that they would make war on people who also want to stop wars but in another way. And so they would fight. Men are what they are and they cannot be different. War has many causes that are unknown to us. Some causes are in men themselves, others are outside them. One must begin with the causes that are in man himself. How can he be independent of the external influences of great cosmic forces when he is the slave of everything that surrounds him? He is controlled by everything around him. If he becomes free from things, he may then become free from planetary influences.

the protesters have been peaceful...but this is related i think

"The fact is that the enormous majority of people do not want any knowledge whatever; they refuse their share of it and do not even take the ration allotted to them, in the general distribution, for the purposes of life. This is particularly evident in times of mass madness such as wars, revolutions, and so on, when men suddenly seem to lose even the small amount of common sense they had and turn into complete automatons, giving themselves over to wholesale destruction in vast numbers, in other words, even losing the instinct of self-preservation.

some of my thoughts...

 

[luke wilson]

Thank you for posting the quotes from ISOTM wetproof.

However, I have to apologise again, because I spoke out of turn. Times like this, someone should be careful of what they say lest fury be unleashed upon them. I commend people like Laura and the sott team, because they just go out there and dish out the cold truths - in our world it appears like lies are the warm fuzzy things. I wonder where the protection comes from...

 

[StrangeCaptain]

I am not judging. Sorry if it came across like that.

Human Life is not cheap and am sorry but, if a person is going to lose there life, they might as well lose it for something real. To lose life for an illusion is cheap and sad.

I don't see there is anything wrong with judging if by that we mean exercising perspicacity. We must make judgements everyday to decide between that which furthers our aim and that which does not.

I think there is a difference between standing up for an illusion and standing up for a symbol. I don't pretend to know how to classify this struggle in Egypt. I am simply not well-informed enough, but what comes to mind is the SOTT statement about Julian Assange and Wikileaks. It is clear that there is all kinds of fishiness in the whole situation, but SOTT made a statement supporting the idea, the concept, the symbol of transparency in government and having venues where people can speak out about what they know of corruption.

This struggle in Egypt may be just such a symbol or concept. Though we know that sustainable human evolution must likely have a fondation in knowledge of ponerology, it does not mean that the human struggle against pathocracy without such knowledge is meaningless. I guess that I am not ready to say that these people are dying for an illusion though we can, from a ponerological viewpoint, see the weak spots in such struggles.

I do agree whole-heartedly that there is something terribly sad when individual human lives and the stories that go with them are lost to statistics and headlines and mass human consumption. It puts to mind in "V for Vendetta" how the female protagonist (sorry... I am terrible at remembering names of characters in movies) starts and ends the movie musing about how none will know the man himself but only the legend he leaves behind and that she for one will remember the man.

 

[mkrnhr]

You can judge me all you want.

What's the point of judging you? Useless..

These people are dying. When people mention, Egyptians, or Tunisians or whatever other people are involved, they forget to mention that they are people, individuals.

Yes, that's how the press represents them, we are not obliged to see people as statistics. They are individuals, some with souls, many with souls in struggle.


You, say they are fighting for the last breath they have. For some, it has been there last breath. Who is talking about them? Who is remembering them? They'll throw a number out like, 600 dead or something like that. But those are 600 individual people with there own individual stories. That is what they'll be remembered as, by people like us, 600 protesters killed... Reduced to that, not people with there own stories.

Human Life is not cheap and am sorry but, if a person is going to lose there life, they might as well lose it for something real.

Yes, but for them it's real.

They have given there life.

It's a way to put it. They fight for their rights and the government assassinated them is another way to put it.

I question the idea. Egypt, or Tunisia or any other name of a country. Is that an idea worth dying for?

You suppose they fight for Egypt or Tunisia? Nobody fights for a name, people fight for their life and that of their children (or for power for some psychos).

I should feel happy seeing them protest

Oh no! Happy not, concerned, supportive, understanding maybe?

we'll see if it was worth it.

Do you know what is worth? What if it is their karmic lesson? try to be open to the theological implications of events, we're not just matter.

 

[mkrnhr]

To me it appears like you had a strong reaction to what Luke Wilson wrote. I did not see his post like you did. I think both of what Luke Wilson and you said can go together. One can see the revolution for what it is, a bunch of people (asleep) "stirred up" and playing right into the hands of 4d STS but at the same time still have empathy. I think.

Not a strong reaction, just point that things are more complex than what they seem. And even if people are manipulated by 4D STS or 3D STS, they desserve respect, not condescendance. You cannot say look at those idiots, they don't know they are manipulated by 4D STS! Where is empathy here?

 

[luke wilson]

mkrnhr,

I really dont know what I have said to get you in this state. Just take acouple of steps back so to not associate so strongly. I think you are grossly misrepresenting what I wrote.

I have not said anything negative about what they are doing.

Yes, but for them it's real.

Yes, but real objectively and real subjectively are 2 different concepts.

What's the point of judging you? Useless..

But this is what you are doing, not only that, I feel you are lashing out at me, maliciously.

Yes, that's how the press represents them, we are not obliged to see people as statistics. They are individuals, some with souls, many with souls in struggle.

True, we are not obliged but the nature of the world is such that, people take what the press says to heart. Reality mirrors media nowadays, not the other way round. Atleast for alot of people. And before you turn this against me, I am not the one that came up with this. Other people have worked to show that this is indeed the case.

You suppose they fight for Egypt or Tunisia? Nobody fights for a name, people fight for their life and that of their children (or for power for some psychos).

I think I just disagree with this. Countless conflicts have happened just for a 'name.' Religious wars are an example. Wars have happened, just for a country. So a country attacking another country for its resources is a valid thing because in a way it is obviously the people in the instigating country exercising there right to a better future. More resources equals better future, no?

Do you know what is worth? What if it is their karmic lesson? try to be open to the theological implications of events, we're not just matter.

I havent said I know what worth is. Maybe you can enlighten me by telling me what you think worth is. If it's not to much of a bother. Why did you make this statement like some kind of attack? Attacking me from a position where you supposedly know what worth is. Maybe you do.

Not a strong reaction, just point that things are more complex than what they seem. And even if people are manipulated by 4D STS or 3D STS, they desserve respect, not condescendance. You cannot say look at those idiots, they don't know they are manipulated by 4D STS! Where is empathy here?

I am not disrespecting anyone nor am I being condescending. You are taking these words and projecting them to me and trying to make me fit into them.

This whole barrage is all because I took the time, just to state afew thoughts, that even those quotes from ISOTM show that yes, the situation is complex but also, sometimes, they dont hold the value that we think they do. Things just happen as Gudgieff said. Cheap that things just happen and people pay for it with there lives. That is pretty much my whole argument and you have turned it into something else.

I think contrary to what you are claiming, you are reacting emotionally to me(and I dont mean any disrespect), where you have made a firm conclusion about what I said and somehow associating that with me as a person and using that as ammo to attack me. I think you should stop. I am ok with constructive criticisms and feedback, but not with malicious attacks disguised as something else.

 

[luke wilson]

Look, you've made over 1000 posts, you've been in the forum for years and you've probably been doing the work for many more years. Why then are you acting like an agent of the general law and reacting to me negatively with such maliciousness just because I transgressed the allocated boundary? Isnt the point to see beyond the general law atleast in this environment of the forum?

You act like I have horribly offended you. Like I have commited some kind of sacred sin.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

Look, you've made over 1000 posts, you've been in the forum for years and you've probably been doing the work for many more years. Why then are you acting like an agent of the general law and reacting to me negatively with such maliciousness just because I transgressed the allocated boundary? Isnt the point to see beyond the general law atleast in this environment of the forum?

You act like I have horribly offended you. Like I have commited some kind of sacred sin.

It would seem to me that there was an emotional flavor in mkrnhr's reply to you, which may have prevented him from seeing what you were trying to say. If I understand you, you are saying that it is a waste of life when these Egyptians die in the street because their cause is futile, that they can not get the freedom they want through these acts of rebellion even if "successful," which I suppose would mean in this case that Mubarak steps down as requested. I am not sure this is entirely the case, that there may be some complexity to this situation. I guess I better read that recent SOTT commentary on it.

However emotional his reply may have been, it does not seem malicious to me and making his emotional reply out to be a manifestation of the General Law crushing down the bearer of a cold, hard truth seems rather dramatic.

As you both seem to be attracted to this forum, I imagine it would be productive to understand what the nature of this breakdown of communication is, but not being moderator material myself, I can not shed any light on that.

 

[un chien anadolu]

The catastrophes... Oh yeah.. We should bear in mind that many many people on earth, especially in 3rd world countries, are allready going through many catastrophes for years: diseases, genocides, massacres etc. For example we see the economic crisis what we live today as a sign of the end times, and indeed it is, but for many people in the other part of the world it's basic daily life especially in last 30 years. Some issues are relative. As an another example the rightful defiance of some people in western countries against the airport body scanners could be looking funny and a bit luxury in the eye of the people of Egypt, Tunisia, Syria etc. because they lack of very basic human rights and freedoms. So when we say : "This is a poor substitute for fighting for freedom - this is what we have been reduced to." this might not be the case for "them" and even a tiny achievement of freedom might be very valuable.
Also even for a sophisticated soul in those countries many conditions are harder for further development, the work, gathering knowledge etc due to many factors : technology, internet access, working conditions, hours, language, censorship (the list goes on...)

 

[David]

I have a difficult time with language, judgement always resonates with the law for me, and it seems it never has anything to do with justice.

Looking at a picture in one of the daily papers of protesters throwing stones at protestors, protesting against the government and the status quo, I find it a terrible irony that a toppled pyramid only ends up as another pyramid, which ever way it falls.

At the end times I think its said the dead will rise up, maybe it’s the spirits of the dead which will rise up, ‘the spirits of trauma’.

I think we all live under the curse… fwiw