Egypt Boiling Over

[truth seeker]

It would seem to me that there was an emotional flavor in mkrnhr's reply to you, which may have prevented him from seeing what you were trying to say. If I understand you, you are saying that it is a waste of life when these Egyptians die in the street because their cause is futile, that they can not get the freedom they want through these acts of rebellion even if "successful," which I suppose would mean in this case that Mubarak steps down as requested. I am not sure this is entirely the case, that there may be some complexity to this situation. I guess I better read that recent SOTT commentary on it.

However emotional his reply may have been, it does not seem malicious to me and making his emotional reply out to be a manifestation of the General Law crushing down the bearer of a cold, hard truth seems rather dramatic.

As you both seem to be attracted to this forum, I imagine it would be productive to understand what the nature of this breakdown of communication is, but not being moderator material myself, I can not shed any light on that.

This is how I read lw's post as well (please clarify lw). Perhaps both parties can give a little more to try and achieve a clearer understanding of what each has to say and respond in a slightly less emotional manner? :) You may both (lw and mkrnhr) also want to consider what, if any programs may be coming up.

 

[mkrnhr]

I feel you are lashing out at me, maliciously.

maliciously?

Maybe you can enlighten me by telling me what you think worth is.

I don't know, but you seem to know isn't it? My response to you is that you cannot know if it is worth because there is more than the 3D reality into it, re-read with no emotional attachement and you'll see.

I am not disrespecting anyone nor am I being condescending.

Ok. I thought it was, i misunderstood your original post then.

Why then are you acting like an agent of the general law and reacting to me negatively with such maliciousness just because I transgressed the allocated boundary?

You should laugh at your phrase here :D

Isnt the point to see beyond the general law atleast in this environment of the forum?

yes, but with respect to the victims.

You act like I have horribly offended you. Like I have commited some kind of sacred sin.

No, that's just an impression.

 

[luke wilson]

However emotional his reply may have been, it does not seem malicious to me and making his emotional reply out to be a manifestation of the General Law crushing down the bearer of a cold, hard truth seems rather dramatic.

Ok, maybe that was dramatic, also just to clarify, I didnt mean I was carrying a cold hard truth. I meant, that I only invoked a reaction because I transgressed some line set in place by the general law.

I agree, that I could not be seeing clearly. Infact chances are that is the case. So for this reason I take what you say onboard.

If I understand you, you are saying that it is a waste of life when these Egyptians die in the street because their cause is futile, that they can not get the freedom they want through these acts of rebellion even if "successful," which I suppose would mean in this case that Mubarak steps down as requested. I am not sure this is entirely the case, that there may be some complexity to this situation. I guess I better read that recent SOTT commentary on it.

Maybe this is the crux of the argument. What constitutes freedom for them? I dont think it's only mubarak stepping down. I think they are looking for fair governance and a fair economic system but the truth is, mubarak or any other democratically elected president wouldnt have the power to give them that. The country is subject to international powers that determine what the people get. Until those powers deem it necessary to give the people what they want, chances are nothing will change. Eygpt is a 3rd world country, furthermore, it is unlucky enough to find itself in africa, the condemned continent, atleast compared to other continents, now as a 3rd world country, it means that its job is to get milked by the super countries out there. That is why they are 3RD WORLD! Will america or any other supercountry out there, have a benevolent change of heart?

Maybe you are right, maybe things will get better, in the long run for them. I am skeptical though.

but for many people in the other part of the world it's basic daily life especially in last 30 years.

Not only 30 years, longer... They live underneath the thumb of the western empire since the colonialists decided to get on there boats and sail to new lands to civilise the savages...

So when we say : "This is a poor substitute for fighting for freedom - this is what we have been reduced to." this might not be the case for "them" and even a tiny achievement of freedom might be very valuable.

I am originally from a 3rd world country. So them, is technically me or rather I am them eventhough I no longer live there. From personal experience, of having spent a good chunk of my life in a 3rd world country(developing country for those politically correct people out there), freedom doesnt enter the picture. Freedom was only an issue, when they were under rule of another country. Otherwise, people there are pretty much as people in western countries. There is no concept of we. What is this 'we,' I keep hearing about? 'We' only enters the picture when another outside force is involved. Otherwise left to there own devices, people act like the way you would expect STS people to act. I dont know how it was before the colonialists and there boats landed on the shores, but that is how it has been since.

 

[truth seeker]

I feel you are lashing out at me, maliciously.

maliciously?

Maybe you can enlighten me by telling me what you think worth is.

I don't know, but you seem to know isn't it? My response to you is that you cannot know if it is worth because there is more than the 3D reality into it, re-read with no emotional attachement and you'll see.

I am not disrespecting anyone nor am I being condescending.

Ok. I thought it was, i misunderstood your original post then.

Why then are you acting like an agent of the general law and reacting to me negatively with such maliciousness just because I transgressed the allocated boundary?

You should laugh at your phrase here :D

Isnt the point to see beyond the general law atleast in this environment of the forum?

yes, but with respect to the victims.

You act like I have horribly offended you. Like I have commited some kind of sacred sin.

No, that's just an impression.

Hi mkrnhr,

My last post was not only to lw, but also to you. Perhaps you didn't see it as we were posting around the same time? Is it possible for you to consider that your last post continues to hold some flavor of emotional attachment and is a bit cryptic in places?

 

[mkrnhr]

Hi truth seeker,
i saw your post after i posted (it was intended tp be my last post on the subject). So what's the question? Maybe another thread?

 

[Laura]

Look, you've made over 1000 posts, you've been in the forum for years and you've probably been doing the work for many more years. Why then are you acting like an agent of the general law and reacting to me negatively with such maliciousness just because I transgressed the allocated boundary? Isnt the point to see beyond the general law atleast in this environment of the forum?

You act like I have horribly offended you. Like I have commited some kind of sacred sin.

In this post, you are moving rather close to being out of line.

Frankly, I think the whole problem is a language barrier issue.

 

[luke wilson]

Look, you've made over 1000 posts, you've been in the forum for years and you've probably been doing the work for many more years. Why then are you acting like an agent of the general law and reacting to me negatively with such maliciousness just because I transgressed the allocated boundary? Isnt the point to see beyond the general law atleast in this environment of the forum?

You act like I have horribly offended you. Like I have commited some kind of sacred sin.

In this post, you are moving rather close to being out of line.

Sorry.

If it is ok, I wouldnt mind just having this whole affair deleted, I know mkrnhr has had enough and he was right all along. Moved away from the original content of this thread and as is now clear I was way out of line, starting from the 1st post. I apologise and take everything onboard. Furthermore, to any Egyptian out there that may be reading this, I wish them and there country the best of luck.

I'd also like to say sorry to mkrnhr for being rude.

Eventhough I think maybe a language barrier might have played a role as suggested, I think a huge chunk of it was due to emotional clouding, maybe most of it being from me.

 

[Beau]

If it is ok, I wouldnt mind just having this whole affair deleted

Sorry, no dice there. Surely the predator would like to cover its tracks and remain unexposed. But in this forum, we strive to do the opposite.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

If I understand you, you are saying that it is a waste of life when these Egyptians die in the street because their cause is futile, that they can not get the freedom they want through these acts of rebellion even if "successful," which I suppose would mean in this case that Mubarak steps down as requested. I am not sure this is entirely the case, that there may be some complexity to this situation. I guess I better read that recent SOTT commentary on it.

Maybe this is the crux of the argument. What constitutes freedom for them? I dont think it's only mubarak stepping down. I think they are looking for fair governance and a fair economic system but the truth is, mubarak or any other democratically elected president wouldnt have the power to give them that. The country is subject to international powers that determine what the people get. Until those powers deem it necessary to give the people what they want, chances are nothing will change. Eygpt is a 3rd world country, furthermore, it is unlucky enough to find itself in africa, the condemned continent, atleast compared to other continents, now as a 3rd world country, it means that its job is to get milked by the super countries out there. That is why they are 3RD WORLD! Will america or any other supercountry out there, have a benevolent change of heart?

Maybe you are right, maybe things will get better, in the long run for them. I am skeptical though.

I was not saying that things may get better for them. I was trying to express that it may be more complex than saying unilaterally that this loss of life is meaningless, that they are dying for a word that has no meaning, as it seemed you originally were saying. I think it is hard to say that this loss of life is meaningless so soon after the fact and also not knowing what their families and countrymen think and feel about this loss of life. There is no doubt that it is a massive tragedy that people die for something that they would already have in a sane world.

There are some examples of nations trying to experiment "off the grid" to some degree or another: Iceland, Venezuela, Cuba. Certainly, the odds are stacked against them, especially considering Egypt's geographic location. Maybe I find the possibility that these deaths are entirely meaningless too repellant to fully consider, but I think I just find it premature in this case to search too vigorously for a "final word" or easy description of what is going on over there.

Yes... Revolting against the current boss does not strike to the heart of the matter. The French demonstrating against retirement reform does not strike to the heart of the matter. Americans complaining about body searches does not strike to the heart of the matter. Though there are likely many individuals in these various groups who understand the heart of the matter is much deeper than just changing or protecting laws or getting new bosses, it seems some "cause" is necessary for people to hit the streets. We don't yet seem to be able to coalesce en masse around a deep, conceptual idea like objectivity or ponerology.

But then... As I understand it, that is part of why Laura embarked on this quest for truth; to find it out what these deep, fundamental concepts are. Someday when the time is right we might have the knowledge necessary to create cultures that encourage the development of human life in its highest potentials and in a sustainable way.

 

[rylek]

If it is ok, I wouldnt mind just having this whole affair deleted

Sorry, no dice there. Surely the predator would like to cover its tracks and remain unexposed. But in this forum, we strive to do the opposite.

Everything a lesson is, indeed. Edit:

Fixed

(Anyone have a Yoda smiley? :)

 

[Jacques]

If it is ok, I wouldnt mind just having this whole affair deleted

Sorry, no dice there. Surely the predator would like to cover its tracks and remain unexposed. But in this forum, we strive to do the opposite.

Everything a lesson is, indeed.

(Anyone have a Yoda smiley? :)

Make your choice. ;)

 

[rylek]

If it is ok, I wouldnt mind just having this whole affair deleted

Sorry, no dice there. Surely the predator would like to cover its tracks and remain unexposed. But in this forum, we strive to do the opposite.

Everything a lesson is, indeed.

(Anyone have a Yoda smiley? :)

Make your choice. ;)

Thanks Gandalf, I'll go with this one

 

[anart]

Look, you've made over 1000 posts, you've been in the forum for years and you've probably been doing the work for many more years. Why then are you acting like an agent of the general law and reacting to me negatively with such maliciousness just because I transgressed the allocated boundary? Isnt the point to see beyond the general law atleast in this environment of the forum?

You act like I have horribly offended you. Like I have commited some kind of sacred sin.

Hi Luke,

I don't see anyone attacking you. I do see you being really emotionally reactive to input, however. It might be worth re-reading this thread as if you are not involved in it and see what you can see. Not all input that disagrees with you is an attack.

 

[luke wilson]

Look, you've made over 1000 posts, you've been in the forum for years and you've probably been doing the work for many more years. Why then are you acting like an agent of the general law and reacting to me negatively with such maliciousness just because I transgressed the allocated boundary? Isnt the point to see beyond the general law atleast in this environment of the forum?

You act like I have horribly offended you. Like I have commited some kind of sacred sin.

Hi Luke,

I don't see anyone attacking you. I do see you being really emotionally reactive to input, however. It might be worth re-reading this thread as if you are not involved in it and see what you can see. Not all input that disagrees with you is an attack.

I made a promise to myself not to post for awhile and let this whole ordeal sink in but I am going to break that promise.

I have re-read the thread and yes I am being emotionally reactive. I have been accused of lacking compassion, empathy and judging these people from what I think is a self-righteous position. I dont think I was being any of this but I think I couldnt come to terms with these people dying. I cant see how that is justifiable. I am in denial. I dont know why, I dont know any of them.

This whole thread has disabled my day. After all the comments were coming, I felt something really deep in my chest, the kind of intensity I have never felt before. I dont really know what it was or how to describe it except it felt like something opened for abit and some of its contents poured into my body before it closed again, the after effects took about 2 hours to make go away. Did I repress it? I did, I needed to distract my mind and so that is what I did. My mind was just feeding on this stuff and creating endless thought loops. From a works point of view, that was the wrong thing to do but I was highly emotional and I wasnt listening to rational thought.

I dont really know what mkrnrh and I were arguing about. We were pretty much saying the same thing but in different ways but I just couldnt get over the fact that he was saying to appreciate this people dying for there freedom and blasting me for not doing so. I couldnt get over the fact that they were dying. Again, I dont know why and in that sense I was being mechanical in reacting. I should have recognised and killed my denial as soon as it popped up.

rylek put the comment about everything being a lesson and I thought to myself, What have I learnt? The only answer I could come up with was to keep my mouth shut, suck it up and to not fall prey to emotional strings because that is what made me make that set of rude comments.

Either way, it has been a bad day and am tired.

I apologise again for my predators mind causing so much havoc. I know chances are nobody really cares and I should probably go back into a dark little corner so as to not cause any more trouble.

 

[Joe]

Luke, I've just read the entire exchange from today and the thing that jumps out at me is the fact that it was your first post that was emotionally charged. So if someone responds with similar emotional language, it isn't really fair to blame them.

As to your point; I think I understand where you are coming from. It is very upsetting to see what Gurdjieff called "the terror of the situation" - the fact that human beings are hemmed in on all sides by the forces of what can only be termed 'evil'. The fact that most human beings have no idea about this fact. It is not unusual to get a little desperate when we start to see the truth of our reality, but the emotions that are provoked can also lead us to black and white thinking, which I think was what happened with your initial post.

I think you are basically wrong in your assumption that the people in Egypt are fighting for "Egypt". I think most of them might use that type of language, but what they are really righting for is their basic rights. No ordinary person has ever fought or died for "country" without the direct experience of repression or the dire threat of it underpinning their fight. What Egyptians are fighting against are the extremely abusive government policies, psychopathy in power, (although they don't know it by that name), that they have lived with for so long. The fact that they may be being manipulated in a broad sense does not, IMO, detract from their righteous and noble intent.

I think we all need to realise that people on this planet are very probably at different levels of awareness or even at different stages of a type of "evolution". The people in Egypt who decided to take to the streets, stand up for themselves and their families and friends, and try to face down the psychopaths in power, may well have been 'growing' something within themselves. Some spark of awareness that wasn't there before may have been ignited by them taking action rather than just thinking about taking action. Some paid for it with their lives, but in a deeper sense, perhaps those people who paid for it with their lives are actually better off than if they were still alive but did not take a stand. Their families are weeping, but "the world's more full of weeping than we can understand" and who is to say who should or should not have certain experiences?

It would be nice if all those Egyptians were aware enough to understand the nature of the control system in this world and how it works. If they did, they would probably chose not to protest; if they did, Mubarak would probably never have been president in the first place. But those Egyptians are not so aware, but they are aware enough to recognise abusive government policies and, at their level of awareness, have done all that they are able to do. From that perspective, it's not really a question of whether they should or should not have protested, they were simply acting based on where they are in their collective awareness.

I think what Mkrnhr was seeing was that you were not really understanding the Egyptian people and where they are in terms of awareness right now. You were looking at them only from your position of awareness which, while more informed in one respect, was missing the addition of understanding BOTH your view and their view.

I would also say that we cannot know for sure that events in Egypt are being manipulated in the complete way you seem to be suggesting. Looking at it simply from a terrestrial perspective, on many occasions, these kinds of revolutions were not the brainchild of the PTB but rather the PTB co-opted a revolutionary movement when they realised that it was beginning to grow. As such, even if the outcomes of revolutions are manipulated, they often do have genuine and noble origins among the people.

Look at it this way: Imagine you hear that a psychopathic criminal is around your neighborhood threatening children. You and your neighbors are all indignant and stirred up by feeling of indignation and the desire to protect your children and community from a predator. So you all go out to find the man and put him in jail. After long days searching and many close encounters where you had to stand firm, you don't catch him and realise that he was ALLOWED to get away by the police because of some political maneuvering.

Would you say that your intent and the feelings of protection and care for others and your families that motivated you were useless?

I would also say that we are at a time in our history when things are changing rapidly, things really do seem to be falling apart, true chaos is unfolding, and with it, perhaps, the grip of the powers that be on the people of this planet is loosening. It is a time of great upheaval and probably suffering, but also, because of that, a time of great opportunity. We are all going to have to try to put aside our dearly held beliefs and sacred cows and pay strict, objective (as much as possible) attention to what is going on in our world if we are to hope to navigate our way.