Éiriú-Eolas - Breathing Program

[T.C.]

I still don't understand how praying can interfere with someone else's lessons.

Don't you want to be as sure as possible though? What if there's only a 10% chance that by praying for someone, you're violating their free will? Wouldn't you be worried about that 10% chance?

The impression I'm getting from your replies and statements in this thread, is not very scientific. If people had given me similar feedback to what you got here, then the first thing I would ask myself is, "what if I'm wrong?" and then I would follow that up by saying "I need to know if I'm wrong or not" and I would at least reread the parts of The Wave that were pertinent to the discussion.

The purpose of discussions here is to get as close as we can to the truth. We can't just give our opinions and tell others we think something's right or true based on what we think or feel.

 

[Aeneas]

Interestingly I also, like Oxajil thought that I was being very open and not putting any restrictions etc.

You misunderstood. I didn't say you were being open. I don't know if you were.

A simple misunderstanding due to a missing comma. Slightly reworded what I wanted to say was :

"Just like Oxajil thinks that she is being open and not putting any restrictions, I also thought that I was being very open and not putting any restrictions etc. "

Hope that clarifies.

 

[ana]

Depends on where I am. If I'm home, the fear is not present, but very low. When I'm outside it is very present, and I recite the POTS and pray to DCM, or I make myself feel comfortable by saying "God is with us", at the same being vigilant.
But this fear has reduced. You could say I'm afraid of things like; being kidnapped and all the awful things that might go with it. I think the fear might also come from my mom since she is overprotective and sometimes talks about the dangers out there, that I should be careful.

I didn't have this problem when we were living in a village. When we moved to the city, it came (I was about 10 years old). The city was unknown, it was big etc. it was scary for me (even though I was excited about moving). So the first few years I was afraid to go outside alone, even if it were a shop that's like not even 5 min. away. But now I'm a lot less afraid.

I still would rather not go alone to places I haven't been before. Or anywhere when it's dark outside.

So can it be fear to the unknown?
Many of us, specially because of "past" experiences relate what we don't know yet, with our probable end.

Life are lessons, we learn lessons when we have new(unknown) experiences, fear separates us from the infinite possibilities that life can offer us, to learn and grow.

There's and old sufi saying:

Doubtless the seabed hides unsuspected riches,
but he who is scared and looks for the safety of the shore,
always remains in the beach sand.

 

[Oxajil]

Hi T.C. I posted in this thread, I thought maybe it's going too off-topic: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10724.msg196282#msg196282

Thank you Aeneas for clarifying.

"Just like Oxajil thinks that she is being open and not putting any restrictions, I also thought that I was being very open and not putting any restrictions etc. "

We can think the same way, but it doesn't mean we are doing the same thing.

So can it be fear to the unknown?
Many of us, specially because of "past" experiences relate what we don't know yet, with our probable end.

Life are lessons, we learn lessons when we have new(unknown) experiences, fear separates us from the infinite possibilities that life can offer us, to learn and grow.

There's and old sufi saying:

Doubtless the seabed hides unsuspected riches,
but he who is scared and looks for the safety of the shore,
always remains in the beach sand.

I think it is fear to the unknown, indeed. Thank you Ana! As my signature says: "and one is not certain whether the compass is pointing true or not; but security, certitude, and peace do not lead to discoveries." - C. G. Jung
All there is is lessons. I will do my best in overcoming these fears by reading, EE, doing and networking.

 

[Ollie]

If you allow your prayers not to have an effect when you open the possibility that your intent might be polluted, knowing DCM knows best, then how can you violate any free will?

Is there some kind of filter in the ethers that catches the negative parts of a prayer, and only allows the positive parts to reach the person? I don't think there is. If there was, that would violate the 'rules of the game' down here in 3D.

Negative and positive parts of a prayer?

From my understanding DCM always abides by free will, and will allow you to do whatever you ask for - either positive, or unconscious and implied negatives - the answer will always be Yes, after all, all there is is lessons for you to learn.

 

[Bo]

If you allow your prayers not to have an effect when you open the possibility that your intent might be polluted, knowing DCM knows best, then how can you violate any free will?

Is there some kind of filter in the ethers that catches the negative parts of a prayer, and only allows the positive parts to reach the person? I don't think there is. If there was, that would violate the 'rules of the game' down here in 3D.

Negative and positive parts of a prayer?

From my understanding DCM always abides by free will, and will allow you to do whatever you ask for - either positive, or unconscious and implied negatives - the answer will always be Yes, after all, all there is is lessons for you to learn.

And that is the key, the understanding is not always the same as with other individuals , this whole discussion on prayers is interesting yes, but it is subjective and based on interpretation and it is impossible to provide scientific data for prayers, atleast in my life i never seen any scientific data on where prayers go or what the DCM wants or does, so it comes down to your preferences on how you would like to pray.

 

[obyvatel]

In Lost Christianity, Jacob Needleman writes that prayer is a state of being open and "vulnerable" to higher influences. It is closely related to attention.
[quote author=Keit]
So wouldn't thinking about the person and wishing them well and sending them support in what ever way it will manifest itself constitutes as a prayer, even if "non verbal" one?
[/quote]
When taken in the sense of being open to higher influences, prayer seems to be different from wishing someone well and sending them support.
What does "praying for another person" mean in this context? One way I see this as being possible is by receiving higher guidance and acting as the agent carrying out the required action for the benefit of the other person. In such a case, the permission of the recipient would be very important to preserve free will.
Wishing for others may work differently where the energy one is able to generate from this wishing (depending on the level of the person's being) can influence the recipient in some way. The flow here seems horizontal instead of a prayer which would involve a vertical movement.


Regarding "praying" for others, I have had an experience where I wanted the best thing for another person and for a somewhat open-ended outcome which would benefit the recipient but it did not turn out well. The person concerned was a family member who talked to me sharing the difficulties she was having at her university and asked for help. She was looking for working with another supervisor after being dissatisfied with her first boss who turned vicious as soon as she learnt about my relative's intention of changing supervisors. Due to her boss's influence, she was having difficulty getting another position though she was qualified for other openings. She wanted to stay in the same university as she had considerable amount of time and work invested in her research work and wanted to finish her thesis there. I "prayed" that she get the chance of following her dreams in the place that she wished to be. I do not know if it was due to the prayers or not but she got accepted by a different supervisor though earlier it had looked quite impossible. So I was happy that she got what she wanted and my "prayers" were answered. After a month though, the new supervisor without any convincing reason decided to let her go. The official reason was lack of funds but the same supervisor accepted another person soon afterwards. The effect on my relative was devastating since she had gotten her hopes up only to have them squashed again.
Now it is possible to interpret the above event and the effect (if any at all) of my prayers for her in different ways. I chose to interpret this as an incident when prayers with the intention of helping someone did end up in causing more misery. And since that experience, I have not repeated it. If someone shares their trouble with me, I listen, think and try to help out in a practical manner if possible - but I do not pray for them.

Before this incident, I used to pray for myself and others regularly. Thinking back, the dynamic involved was very similar to what Endymion wrote in response to Oxajil - that of a scared sensitive child wishing for divine forces to act to prevent/ relieve sufferings. A lot of it was about projecting my own insecurities and fears on others and determining their needs based on that. I did not really expect my prayers to work - but doing it helped release internal pressure. At the end of the day, it was about me being comfortable. For people doing the Work, this type of internal pressure can be examined and used to fuel growth of being instead of dissipating the energy - osit.

fwiw

 

[Oxajil]

I did not really expect my prayers to work - but doing it helped release internal pressure. At the end of the day, it was about me being comfortable. For people doing the Work, this type of internal pressure can be examined and used to fuel growth of being instead of dissipating the energy - osit.

That is very interesting obyvatel, and I can relate to that to some extent, I will keep that in mind and observe what happens when I don't pray, how my machine will react etc.

 

[mada85]

Added: What I am wondering is about the difference between the strength of support if you keep one in your thoughts, and prayers that might violate someone's free will. Would keeping someone in your heart would necessarily require a request?

For me this comes back to the point I made earlier about having faith that the DCM knows what is best for all. Out of that faith grows the understanding that people are in the right place at the right time according to their level of consciousness, being and knowledge. Then one naturally responds to the person with a positive attitude and acceptance of their problems. Praying without permission violates free will because the intent is to somehow change the person in some way according to one's own ideas – internal considering or essentially asking that 'two times two be not four'. Faith in the DCM and the person's lessons does not violate free will because one's faith is internal, yet leads to the desire to 'grow in knowledge' of the person, and to assist the other, to the best of one's ability, to grow in knowledge and being, according to the situation and the openness of the other. By this criteria, ordinary prayer for others is STS while faith is STO. I hope that makes sense. If you have faith in the DCM you won't be trying to change a person, you will be trying to help them to have a more objective view of themselves. At least that is how it seems to me.

If you believe that asking permission is the right way of praying, then by all means do it. Everybody has their own way of ''praying'' and praying is just that, praying.

I don't believe that asking permission is the right way of praying. I do think, based on my current understanding of the importance of free will, that asking permission is the right preparation for praying for another.

You've mentioned twice now that praying is just praying. I don't quite understand what you mean. Do you mean that prayers are nothing more than words devoid of meaning spoken to the empty ether? Perhaps you would care to explain?

What if there's only a 10% chance that by praying for someone, you're violating their free will? Wouldn't you be worried about that 10% chance?

Oxajil, you've said that you are fearful, and that you pray for the DCM to protect others for your own comfort. This is selfish and STS; you are determining the needs of others (their need for protection) and this does not an STO candidate make. Internal considering is the intent, or drive, behind your prayer. How can a prayer sent out with selfish intent have beneficial consequences? Why not just pray for help with your fear, for help with work on yourself, instead of going in a roundabout way by praying for protection for others? One should address the internal issue directly, osit, instead of addressing self-calming prayers to the DCM.

Is there some kind of filter in the ethers that catches the negative parts of a prayer, and only allows the positive parts to reach the person? I don't think there is. If there was, that would violate the 'rules of the game' down here in 3D.

Negative and positive parts of a prayer?

Yes. Internal considering is the negative part of the prayer, and the request for protection is the positive part. Compare this with the POTS which contains only requests for the self of the person praying, apart from the line that mentions giving bread to others, and even that line is in the context of 'bread' for oneself. That is because in this world our responsibility is first and foremost to help ourselves to grow in knowledge and being, then we will be able to See and assist others.

Reading through the C's quotes presented in this post of Bo's earlier in this thread, it is interesting that none of the contexts imply praying for others, at least in my understanding.

Why would someone even mention the troubles or trauma in their lives if they weren't asking for your support at some level?

Because some people just love whinging about their illnesses and problems. It gives them a sense of identity, and they are definitely not asking for assistance or support. I've listened to such people, and if I do offer some small advice or support, at the time it is either ignored or politely accepted then forgotten about.

 

[Aeneas]

And that is the key, the understanding is not always the same as with other individuals , this whole discussion on prayers is interesting yes, but it is subjective and based on interpretation and it is impossible to provide scientific data for prayers, atleast in my life i never seen any scientific data on where prayers go or what the DCM wants or does, so it comes down to your preferences on how you would like to pray.

Bo, I get the feeling that you are feeling uncomfortable about this discussion on prayer and just wish to sweep it aside or to end it with a sweeping statement that each should just do whatever they wish. Perhaps that is something to look at. Why the unwillingness to look at this in detail? Perhaps we can all learn something from this sharing. The devil is as always in the detail.

The key question that started this discussion about prayer was about respecting the free will of others and having the courtesy and respect for the others to ask for their permission if there is a need/wish to pray for them.

In Lost Christianity, Jacob Needleman writes that prayer is a state of being open and "vulnerable" to higher influences. It is closely related to attention.
[quote author=Keit]
So wouldn't thinking about the person and wishing them well and sending them support in what ever way it will manifest itself constitutes as a prayer, even if "non verbal" one?

When taken in the sense of being open to higher influences, prayer seems to be different from wishing someone well and sending them support.
What does "praying for another person" mean in this context? One way I see this as being possible is by receiving higher guidance and acting as the agent carrying out the required action for the benefit of the other person. In such a case, the permission of the recipient would be very important to preserve free will.
Wishing for others may work differently where the energy one is able to generate from this wishing (depending on the level of the person's being) can influence the recipient in some way. The flow here seems horizontal instead of a prayer which would involve a vertical movement.

[/quote]

Thank you for sharing Obyvatel. The difference between praying for someone and wishing them well makes sense.

 

[Oxajil]

Hi All,

I think it's a very interesting subject and I wanna thank you all for participating, but don't you think we should continue it in the Praying thread? I guess it's up to the moderators.

For me this comes back to the point I made earlier about having faith that the DCM knows what is best for all. Out of that faith grows the understanding that people are in the right place at the right time according to their level of consciousness, being and knowledge. Then one naturally responds to the person with a positive attitude and acceptance of their problems.

I see, but does that make praying unnecessary?

Praying without permission violates free will because the intent is to somehow change the person in some way according to one's own ideas – internal considering or essentially asking that 'two times two be not four'. [...] I hope that makes sense. If you have faith in the DCM you won't be trying to change a person, you will be trying to help them to have a more objective view of themselves. At least that is how it seems to me.

As I said, when I pray the intent is not to cause a change per se. I agree, there could be some selfishness involved, wishing how things should be. But I am opening all kinds of possibilities. I am really considering and thinking about what you say, but I just can't see that in myself. When I ask for someone's protection, I open the possibility for DCM to decide what She wants to do with that. I am not obsessed, or fixing myself on a certain outcome. I trust that whatever happens, happens. And then the question comes again: well then, why do you pray? And I have answered that.

Faith in the DCM and the person's lessons does not violate free will because one's faith is internal, yet leads to the desire to 'grow in knowledge' of the person, and to assist the other, to the best of one's ability, to grow in knowledge and being, according to the situation and the openness of the other.

Let's say. I ask for you for permission to pray for a safe trip. And you say ''sure, why not''. Okay so I go on and pray every day, wishing, begging, and putting all my energy into praying for you. Almost demanding DCM to offer you a safe trip! Let's say I'm almost obsessed with you being safe. I would not be able to handle it, if somehow you will be in pain. It is unacceptable.
And now let's say I don't ask you for permission, I simply think you're a nice person, and I talk to DCM one day and I ask Her, "Dear DCM, if it is possible, could you keep an eye on Endymion during his/her travel?" There is no expectation, there is just me caring about you. Am I determining your needs here? Well, you could say something like that too when you buy someone a present! It's about the intent, I mean no harm, I'm not obsessed, and yes, maybe it is selfish for it gives me a warm feeling that I have asked this to DCM, maybe to make myself feel comfortable.

But that comfortable feeling would also be present if I would have gained your permission and prayed like that, then we would both determin your needs, thinking you need protection. What am I missing here?

By this criteria, ordinary prayer for others is STS while faith is STO.

I don't understand that. One can have faith in the act of praying.

Oxajil, you've said that you are fearful, and that you pray for the DCM to protect others for your own comfort. This is selfish and STS; you are determining the needs of others (their need for protection) and this does not an STO candidate make. Internal considering is the intent, or drive, behind your prayer. How can a prayer sent out with selfish intent have beneficial consequences? Why not just pray for help with your fear, for help with work on yourself, instead of going in a roundabout way by praying for protection for others? One should address the internal issue directly, osit, instead of addressing self-calming prayers to the DCM.

Thank you Endymion, that is certainly something for me to think about, and do.

Yes. Internal considering is the negative part of the prayer, and the request for protection is the positive part. Compare this with the POTS which contains only requests for the self of the person praying, apart from the line that mentions giving bread to others, and even that line is in the context of 'bread' for oneself. That is because in this world our responsibility is first and foremost to help ourselves to grow in knowledge and being, then we will be able to See and assist others.

Reading through the C's quotes presented in this post of Bo's earlier in this thread, it is interesting that none of the contexts imply praying for others, at least in my understanding.

I'm not sure, if you pray for someone else, it's still a prayer right? What I find interesting is (taken out of context):

A: Prayers are not necessary for protection once channel, or more appropriately, conduit is properly grooved!

Q: (L) How do we get assistance from higher realms?
A: By asking and…
Q: (L) What is the limit to the kind of assistance we can receive?
A: Limit?!? We live within a realm that includes no such thing!!!

Q: (PZ) So, I should continue to pray?
A: All goes to 6th density.

A: No. If you continue to pray, there is no chance of your lessons being interrupted or deferred.

Q: (L) And what does he do when he hears the prayers?
A: Determines their necessity against background of individual soul development.
Q: (L) You said that when a person prays to Jesus that he makes some sort of a decision, is that correct?
A: Yes.

 

[Bluestar]

Never conventionally learned how to pray. What developed for me was an internal conversation with DCM/higher self. When I have been asked to pray for someone I usually ask for "the most perfect and positive" outcome for the person to get there lesson. That they get it while there is chance for it to be gentle. Having no attachments to the outcome. I can see that this may sound like a new age sentiment. For me the way I see it is if someone is ill and the lesson for them is to move on, then that is the "most perfect and positive" outcome and may it go smoothly. This is just an example. I may dedicate an EE session to someone else. Also I have been asked to light a candle for someone, this then I add as I am lighting the candle. Though only if asked for.

In reference to Oxajil's position on travel, I just say have a safe trip and trust for the best. Be watchful and careful on your journey.

When I leave my home, I do say a prayer of some sort when locking the door. "Please protect this place from all ill and harmful things. Protect the dogs and cat and all the other critters that live here. Thank you" Makes me feel better so I guess it is a strictly STS action.

Then there are some research projects that have found that prayer has increased those who were prayed for recovery to have fewer complications. Though the people prayed for were not told that this was happening. This would fall into the STS category. Are we not in an STS world?

One of the most cited studies in prayer literature was conducted by the physician Randolph Byrd in 1988. Byrd looked at the effects of prayer in the Judeo-Christian tradition in a coronary care unit (CCU) population. Over ten months, 393 patients admitted to the CCU were randomly assigned to a treatment group that would receive distant prayers, or a control group that would receive no prayers.

Three to seven people prayed daily for the rapid recovery, and prevention of complications or death, for a single patient in the treatment group. The end result was that statistically significantly fewer patients in the prayer group required ventilation, antibiotics, had cardiopulmonary arrests, developed pneumonia, or required diuretics.


Byrd, R. C. (1988) “Positive therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer in a coronary care unit population” Southern Medical Journal In D.J.Benor (2002) Spiritual Healing: Scientific Validation of a Healing Revolution. Vision Publications.

Jonas, W. B. & C. C. Crawford. (2003) Healing Intention and Energy Medicine, Churchill Livingstone.

Sicher, F., E. Targ., D.Moore., and H. S. Smith (1998) “A randomised double-blind study of the effects of distant healing in a population with advanced AIDS” Western Journal of Medicine. In D.J.Benor (2002) Spiritual Healing: Scientific Validation of a Healing Revolution. Vision Publications


From Suite101: Does Prayer Actually Work?: Scientific Evidence for the Power of Prayer _http://www.suite101.com/content/pray-for-me-a202806#ixzz10YAnXGuk

edit: fixed quote tag

 

[Bo]

And that is the key, the understanding is not always the same as with other individuals , this whole discussion on prayers is interesting yes, but it is subjective and based on interpretation and it is impossible to provide scientific data for prayers, atleast in my life i never seen any scientific data on where prayers go or what the DCM wants or does, so it comes down to your preferences on how you would like to pray.

Bo, I get the feeling that you are feeling uncomfortable about this discussion on prayer and just wish to sweep it aside or to end it with a sweeping statement that each should just do whatever they wish. Perhaps that is something to look at. Why the unwillingness to look at this in detail? Perhaps we can all learn something from this sharing. The devil is as always in the detail.

The key question that started this discussion about prayer was about respecting the free will of others and having the courtesy and respect for the others to ask for their permission if there is a need/wish to pray for them.

Because it's subjective, as I said it's an interesting discussion, but it's subjective and ofcourse there is always something to learn from any kind of discussion.

there is no hard data to know what the right way of prayer is, and my understanding is that an apple is just an apple and that a prayer is just that, a prayer. I don't think it has anything to do with free will violation, BUT if anyone thinks that it DOES violate free will, then there is nothing wrong with that.

One does not learn to become a STO candidate by determining the needs of another, when you pray , do you try to determine their needs(meaning: if you pray with any expectation)? no ? then what has that to do with free will violation?

if someone prays ''Dear god I pray to ask you if you could watch over my son, daughter and husband'' now can you explain to me why you think that a prayer like this is a violation of free will? if yes , how does this violate them? do they get hurt physically and emotionally by this prayer? does this prayer stop them from learning any lessons?

 

[Windmill knight]

And that is the key, the understanding is not always the same as with other individuals , this whole discussion on prayers is interesting yes, but it is subjective and based on interpretation and it is impossible to provide scientific data for prayers, atleast in my life i never seen any scientific data on where prayers go or what the DCM wants or does, so it comes down to your preferences on how you would like to pray.

Bo, I get the feeling that you are feeling uncomfortable about this discussion on prayer and just wish to sweep it aside or to end it with a sweeping statement that each should just do whatever they wish. Perhaps that is something to look at. Why the unwillingness to look at this in detail? Perhaps we can all learn something from this sharing. The devil is as always in the detail.

The key question that started this discussion about prayer was about respecting the free will of others and having the courtesy and respect for the others to ask for their permission if there is a need/wish to pray for them.

Because it's subjective, as I said it's an interesting discussion, but it's subjective and ofcourse there is always something to learn from any kind of discussion.

there is no hard data to know what the right way of prayer is, and my understanding is that an apple is just an apple and that a prayer is just that, a prayer. I don't think it has anything to do with free will violation, BUT if anyone thinks that it DOES violate free will, then there is nothing wrong with that.

One does not learn to become a STO candidate by determining the needs of another, when you pray , do you try to determine their needs(meaning: if you pray with any expectation)? no ? then what has that to do with free will violation?

if someone prays ''Dear god I pray to ask you if you could watch over my son, daughter and husband'' now can you explain to me why you think that a prayer like this is a violation of free will? if yes , how does this violate them? do they get hurt physically and emotionally by this prayer? does this prayer stop them from learning any lessons?

On this issue, I posted here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10724.msg196360#msg196360 . I suggest we post over there to leave this thread for EE.

 

[LQB]

On followup to may last post on "re-committed" full program EE:

I did the full program this afternoon and applied a little more concentration energy than is usually available before bed. Just as the music began, the energy appearing in my head and face quickly moved to the lower chest/solar plexus area as great pressure. This continued for some time making the subsequent pipe breaths difficult. Much energy in this one.