EMF Exposure

[LQB]

Bad wiring doesn't just radiate the mains signal, but all the noise that's on it which is usually a lot. If you have dirty electricity (Everyone's electricity is dirty enough IMO), that gets radiated with the magnetic field. I do wonder if such fields would be significantly less hazardous if it were clean electricity.

I agree with Milham and some physicists that a 50/60 Hz clean sine wave magnetic field is not harmful - the harm comes from the high frequency wideband noise that gets on the grid. A high reading on the gauss meter (50/60 Hz) indicates that the wideband noise component will also be high - and that is where the danger is. So net current should always be eliminated.

 

[LQB]

DE2 filters are advertised as being internally screened so they don't radiate EMF. Is the EMF filter a significant noise source in the room compared to other things?

Wherever hot and neutral wires separate at sockets or in appliances, net current appears over a short distance. This will look like a mag field point source and the field falls off quickly as 1/r2. If the net current appears in the wiring over a long wire run, (as Riley describes), then the field falls off as 1/r. This is why net current due to wiring errors is of much more concern and can cause a high mag field throughout large areas of a room.

 

[LQB]

The EMF filters mainly treat EMF that would be radiated to the body by capacitive coupling. The magnetic noise that might come from a filter is usually confined to the area of wire between it and the noise source. So it might help to find the source and have a filter near it, assuming the EMF is more than would be expected from ordinary mains.

Yes, and if the noise is originating on the grid somewhere, then the best place for filters is usually on the A/B sides of the service panel box (or as close to it as possible). You can also add A/B breakers and bring down new sockets (for the filters) right at the panel box.

 

[Divide by Zero]

Currently doing a lot of reading because the whole affair personally affects me - I feel that I'm at least mildly electro-hypersensitive - thus the interest and concentration comes much more easily, oh the joys of learning are back - reminds me of the times we were looking into the various diets on the forum. Now I'm on my own little adventure into EHS land. The knowledge really does protect - my symptoms are much less now -- knowing is half the battle!

Good example beetlemaniac! And thanks for the Riley video - if all electricians were to watch this, there would be far fewer wiring errors.

In my own case (when I built my house) I armed my electrician with Riley's book and a gauss meter, and had him check for net current on every circuit. He made errors (resulting in net current) on 3-way switches which were detected and fixed in this way. Both he and I are sure that he has left many homes with similar wiring errors!

For hlat, BX is the way to go - its not that much more expensive than standard Romex. The shielding will eliminate the electric field but will have no effect on the magnetic field - thus the importance of what Riley talks about.

Yes, that was a really interesting video, thanks. Here is the link for Riley's wiring book Tracing EMFs in Building Wiring and Grounding.

Having just replaced two electrical outlets due to their wear, was surprised as they were all originally 3 wire with ground instead of 2-wire with ground - so 2 hot legs on one side of the outlet (bridge removed) and the neutral on the other side (bridge intact) - it's how the neutrals are bundled and split like in the video that there might be errors. Also, the baseboard heating (220) in one section that has been viewed so far is strange - it's not right at all.

That's perfectly fine and a great way to split load. I've also seen where the 3 wires come up to the first outlet in the chain, the first outlet uses the black and neutral. Then neutral and red are extended to the second outlet. Both cases it is like having 2 separate circuits, just using 3 wires.
As long as the 2 lines (let's assume Red and Black) are on breakers next to eachother and measure 220 between them, with the neutral shared they are balanced.

Let's say Red had 10 amp load and the Black had 14 amps load. The neutral would be carrying 4 amps.

The balance, if you put a CT (current transformer) around the 3 wires is 0.

If red is 10 and black is 10, neutral is zero amps.

The danger is when people use the breakers that have 2 in one and put both red and black to the same "phase". If red to black voltage is 0 (same phase), then doing 10 amps on red and 14 on black would give you 242 amps on neutral, which is a dangerous imbalance- also for safety reasons as the wire is sized for protection limits of 15 amps (AWG 12 let's say).


Another problem is that the neutral and ground has to be bonded at the MAIN PANEL ONLY. If bonded at a sub panel, it can cause the neutral or ground to carry strange currents if either of those wires has a slight fault.

 

[hlat]

If the reading is significant only next to the filter, then it's probably working as expected.

Yes this is what is occurring.

The electrical panel has about a 3 foot radius zone where readings are over 2 milliGauss. The electrical panel is located at the corner of the home behind the refrigerator, which is good for the current configuration. However, the room addition will be at this corner of the home, which will be bad for the future configuration. I am expecting the bathroom to be added at this kitchen corner, and then the bedroom. So it will be kitchen -- bathroom -- bedroom closet -- bedroom. I think this will keep the bedroom far enough from the electrical panel. But the bathroom shower will be right next to the electrical panel. The shower was chosen instead of the sink or toilet next to the panel, though I'm not sure this is the best solution.

 

[LQB]

If the reading is significant only next to the filter, then it's probably working as expected.

Yes this is what is occurring.

The electrical panel has about a 3 foot radius zone where readings are over 2 milliGauss. The electrical panel is located at the corner of the home behind the refrigerator, which is good for the current configuration. However, the room addition will be at this corner of the home, which will be bad for the future configuration. I am expecting the bathroom to be added at this kitchen corner, and then the bedroom. So it will be kitchen -- bathroom -- bedroom closet -- bedroom. I think this will keep the bedroom far enough from the electrical panel. But the bathroom shower will be right next to the electrical panel. The shower was chosen instead of the sink or toilet next to the panel, though I'm not sure this is the best solution.

If that space must be included, arrange the design so that space adjacent to the panel box is used the least amount of time. Short periods of high exposure are easily offset by longer periods of low exposure.

 

[Voyageur]

That's perfectly fine and a great way to split load. I've also seen where the 3 wires come up to the first outlet in the chain, the first outlet uses the black and neutral. Then neutral and red are extended to the second outlet. Both cases it is like having 2 separate circuits, just using 3 wires.
As long as the 2 lines (let's assume Red and Black) are on breakers next to eachother and measure 220 between them, with the neutral shared they are balanced.

Yes, this is the case, and understand what you are getting at. Was expecting a 14 -2 in this case, cause I can't see why anything else was needed for a couple of island outlets - there are no 3-way lights tied to this and yet perhaps I'm missing something that's tied in, something that needs the 14 -3 (double 15 amp service). I'm going to pay attention to the neutrals to see how they have been arranged and coupled - I don't have a clamp meter.

Let's say Red had 10 amp load and the Black had 14 amps load. The neutral would be carrying 4 amps.

The balance, if you put a CT (current transformer) around the 3 wires is 0.

If red is 10 and black is 10, neutral is zero amps.

The danger is when people use the breakers that have 2 in one and put both red and black to the same "phase". If red to black voltage is 0 (same phase), then doing 10 amps on red and 14 on black would give you 242 amps on neutral, which is a dangerous imbalance- also for safety reasons as the wire is sized for protection limits of 15 amps (AWG 12 let's say).

Hear you, don't think I've noticed this in the panel. One of the things I've noticed though is that the person who owned the place originally was an electrician and self-wired. He was from a different place that used slightly different electrical codes - things like pigtails, outlet heights etc., are some differences - yet don't know enough about what else could be different. There has already been some mislabeling noticed on the panel, so thinking that a full assessment of the wiring (fuse by fuse), as best as possible, needs to be done and can undertake the balance check at the same time..

Another problem is that the neutral and ground has to be bonded at the MAIN PANEL ONLY. If bonded at a sub panel, it can cause the neutral or ground to carry strange currents if either of those wires has a slight fault.

I've an outside sub-panel, so will check.

 

[Voyageur]

Just adding a TEDx talk that appeared on SoTT today by Jeromy Johnson - Why we can no longer assume WiFi technology is safe; all in all, pretty good talk - "your bodies are electric" he mentions, and as most readers here know well, the technologies are disruptive to same (toxic). So perhaps this is something to pass along to others not so familiar. http://www.sott.net/article/312836-Why-we-can-no-longer-assume-WiFi-technology-is-safe

 

[Divide by Zero]

That's perfectly fine and a great way to split load. I've also seen where the 3 wires come up to the first outlet in the chain, the first outlet uses the black and neutral. Then neutral and red are extended to the second outlet. Both cases it is like having 2 separate circuits, just using 3 wires.
As long as the 2 lines (let's assume Red and Black) are on breakers next to eachother and measure 220 between them, with the neutral shared they are balanced.

Yes, this is the case, and understand what you are getting at. Was expecting a 14 -2 in this case, cause I can't see why anything else was needed for a couple of island outlets - there are no 3-way lights tied to this and yet perhaps I'm missing something that's tied in, something that needs the 14 -3 (double 15 amp service). I'm going to pay attention to the neutrals to see how they have been arranged and coupled - I don't have a clamp meter.

I think for kitchens the code suggests more than one circuit for heavy loads like toaster ovens, microwaves and so on. You can find the box where the 14-3 originates and just make sure that hot to hot is 220, or check on the panel.

Let's say Red had 10 amp load and the Black had 14 amps load. The neutral would be carrying 4 amps.

The balance, if you put a CT (current transformer) around the 3 wires is 0.

If red is 10 and black is 10, neutral is zero amps.

The danger is when people use the breakers that have 2 in one and put both red and black to the same "phase". If red to black voltage is 0 (same phase), then doing 10 amps on red and 14 on black would give you 242 amps on neutral, which is a dangerous imbalance- also for safety reasons as the wire is sized for protection limits of 15 amps (AWG 12 let's say).

Hear you, don't think I've noticed this in the panel. One of the things I've noticed though is that the person who owned the place originally was an electrician and self-wired. He was from a different place that used slightly different electrical codes - things like pigtails, outlet heights etc., are some differences - yet don't know enough about what else could be different. There has already been some mislabeling noticed on the panel, so thinking that a full assessment of the wiring (fuse by fuse), as best as possible, needs to be done and can undertake the balance check at the same time..

Another problem is that the neutral and ground has to be bonded at the MAIN PANEL ONLY. If bonded at a sub panel, it can cause the neutral or ground to carry strange currents if either of those wires has a slight fault.

I've an outside sub-panel, so will check.

Sometimes my co workers (some of which have licenses) will do strange things. Sometimes I feel like the code book has turned into a manual for safety for those who don't know why. It's very rote and boring and sounds like lawyers wrote it. So, he might have known better- or not.

Common sense isn't common in the technical fields either!

 

[beetlemaniac]

Hello people,

I just wanted to share my experience procuring international filters from Greenwave.

Recently, I had the intention of purchasing a DE meter and filters from Greenwave. However, the customer service representative I had been liaising with has not replied my last e-mail. In that e-mail, I had requested for technical information (datasheets, or the like) about their products specifically for the international market (I live in Malaysia where the UK plugs are used, at 240V / 50Hz).

As I gave the website a thorough read, I discovered that the DE meters were available in both 120V and 240V versions, hurrah! I have sent a second e-mail stating clearly that I wanted to order, without pushing on about wanting datasheets and the like, which may have put him off a bit. Or maybe they thought that I was trying to steal trade secrets or the like. I hope not, and I hope I get them delivered. I'm in luck as I'm currently able to get things shipped to a US address, thus saving on shipping costs. Shipping to Malaysia from the US is really expensive!

By the way, I was looking at also purchasing a general EMF meter (mainly for ELF, but HF would be great except for the fact that most of the time, it's hard to do anything about cell towers and your neighbours WiFi), and I was looking through recommendations by this guy from "Norad4u" (_http://www.norad4u.com/monitor/home-emr-meters)

About the CORNET ED88T RF/ELF EMF/EMR Meter

The CORNET ED88T is an improvement of the CORNET ED88T. It can measure ELF Electric field (from 10V/m), ELF magnetic field (from 0.1mG) and RF (up to 8GHz) EMF/EMR(Electromagnetic Fields/Electromagnetic Radiation). In RF mode ig will show you the frequency of the highest signal (between 100MHz and 2.7GHz), It has an audio feedback and and audio alarm feature. an other improvement is that it can show average level over last half a second and from the beginning of the measurement(user can select). The CORNET ED88T is even faster than the ED78S, with 10000 samples a second. This meter can be very useful for most EHS(Electromagnetic Hyper Sensitive) as it is very fast, easy to operate, give results in numeric fashion, has a color led bar and most importantly has a histogram with 32 last measurements. Using the histogram can let you find, track and measure RF/ELF sources that transmit only for a fraction of a second every few seconds. It's ability to measure ELF magnetic field, RF radiation up to 8GHz, and the histogram display makes it the best first meter for EHS.

It's a single axis digital meter and a little pricey ($190). I am not sure how this would stack up against the TriField 100XE - that is a triple axis analog meter. Any opinions?

I'm also ordering a Q-link pendant to test it out. Hope to post some feedback after I get it.

 

[monotonic]

I think those filters are just 22uF capacitors (smaller for 240V versions). It would be difficult to mess up the design. What are you worried about going wrong?

These are also available which include an internal shield (which isn't really much of an improvement):

http://www.emfields-solutions.com/filters/de-filter.asp

 

[LQB]

About the CORNET ED88T RF/ELF EMF/EMR Meter

The CORNET ED88T is an improvement of the CORNET ED88T. It can measure ELF Electric field (from 10V/m), ELF magnetic field (from 0.1mG) and RF (up to 8GHz) EMF/EMR(Electromagnetic Fields/Electromagnetic Radiation). In RF mode ig will show you the frequency of the highest signal (between 100MHz and 2.7GHz), It has an audio feedback and and audio alarm feature. an other improvement is that it can show average level over last half a second and from the beginning of the measurement(user can select). The CORNET ED88T is even faster than the ED78S, with 10000 samples a second. This meter can be very useful for most EHS(Electromagnetic Hyper Sensitive) as it is very fast, easy to operate, give results in numeric fashion, has a color led bar and most importantly has a histogram with 32 last measurements. Using the histogram can let you find, track and measure RF/ELF sources that transmit only for a fraction of a second every few seconds. It's ability to measure ELF magnetic field, RF radiation up to 8GHz, and the histogram display makes it the best first meter for EHS.

It's a single axis digital meter and a little pricey ($190). I am not sure how this would stack up against the TriField 100XE - that is a triple axis analog meter. Any opinions?

Good/sensitive RF spectrum analyzers are generally very expensive - the cheap ones (like this) are generally useless. The Trifield is good for 50/60 Hz electric and mag field measurements in the home and has a good 3-axis probe, but its RF measurements are useless for an environmental survey. Hope that helps ...

 

[beetlemaniac]

I think those filters are just 22uF capacitors (smaller for 240V versions). It would be difficult to mess up the design. What are you worried about going wrong?

These are also available which include an internal shield (which isn't really much of an improvement):

http://www.emfields-solutions.com/filters/de-filter.asp

Thanks for the tips monotonic. I have started looking for parts to build it myself, it's going to be a fun project!

About the CORNET ED88T RF/ELF EMF/EMR Meter

The CORNET ED88T is an improvement of the CORNET ED88T. It can measure ELF Electric field (from 10V/m), ELF magnetic field (from 0.1mG) and RF (up to 8GHz) EMF/EMR(Electromagnetic Fields/Electromagnetic Radiation). In RF mode ig will show you the frequency of the highest signal (between 100MHz and 2.7GHz), It has an audio feedback and and audio alarm feature. an other improvement is that it can show average level over last half a second and from the beginning of the measurement(user can select). The CORNET ED88T is even faster than the ED78S, with 10000 samples a second. This meter can be very useful for most EHS(Electromagnetic Hyper Sensitive) as it is very fast, easy to operate, give results in numeric fashion, has a color led bar and most importantly has a histogram with 32 last measurements. Using the histogram can let you find, track and measure RF/ELF sources that transmit only for a fraction of a second every few seconds. It's ability to measure ELF magnetic field, RF radiation up to 8GHz, and the histogram display makes it the best first meter for EHS.

It's a single axis digital meter and a little pricey ($190). I am not sure how this would stack up against the TriField 100XE - that is a triple axis analog meter. Any opinions?

Good/sensitive RF spectrum analyzers are generally very expensive - the cheap ones (like this) are generally useless. The Trifield is good for 50/60 Hz electric and mag field measurements in the home and has a good 3-axis probe, but its RF measurements are useless for an environmental survey. Hope that helps ...

Thanks LQB, that's exactly what I wanted to know, I'll probably be going for the Trifield.

 

[fabric]

Good/sensitive RF spectrum analyzers are generally very expensive - the cheap ones (like this) are generally useless. The Trifield is good for 50/60 Hz electric and mag field measurements in the home and has a good 3-axis probe, but its RF measurements are useless for an environmental survey. Hope that helps ...

I have one the cornet ones and I did find it useful for getting a general reading of RF in our old house. When I had the house Ethernet hard wired and all the cordless phones unplugged, I took a reading and was still seeing low level RF throughout the house. It helped me to track down that it was the cordless phone base that was still transmitting even though all the remote ones were disconnected. After I unplugged it, the RF that it was seeing was gone. I also used it to take a reading before and after shielding the smart meter and was able to see a noticeable decrease in the RF strength of device communicating with the outside. I didn't find out too useful for measuring mag fields however.

 

[LQB]

Good/sensitive RF spectrum analyzers are generally very expensive - the cheap ones (like this) are generally useless. The Trifield is good for 50/60 Hz electric and mag field measurements in the home and has a good 3-axis probe, but its RF measurements are useless for an environmental survey. Hope that helps ...

I have one the cornet ones and I did find it useful for getting a general reading of RF in our old house. When I had the house Ethernet hard wired and all the cordless phones unplugged, I took a reading and was still seeing low level RF throughout the house. It helped me to track down that it was the cordless phone base that was still transmitting even though all the remote ones were disconnected. After I unplugged it, the RF that it was seeing was gone. I also used it to take a reading before and after shielding the smart meter and was able to see a noticeable decrease in the RF strength of device communicating with the outside. I didn't find out too useful for measuring mag fields however.

Yes, the cheap ones will respond to high level RF originating in the near environment (such as your cordless base) - but for sensitive mapping by RF band (necessary for the EMF sensitive), you are up in the $1000+ category of cost. Its best to rent one of these if you can.