Esoteric Music Theory

yumi

Jedi
Good morning!
I thought of Juno, even Pluto,... considering them as inclinations, in every sense of the word, and particularly in the negative sense in terms of exclusive control. I wonder if ,from a karmic/matrix point of view, like "blind spots" on our path, it also reveals our Achilles heel.
I was thinking of'a hades program or operation', in connection with the'cult of death', the three sisters; 36(9)3; as a means of deriving an unconscious flow.
in bulk, pythagoras would get his knowledge of the Sumerians, I was interested in the trapezius, but especially the soleus muscle and the elm tree.
http://www.acutempo.com

in musical terms, the feeling of an echo pulse. Quinte-based and trans-positive relationships; I hope to share soon.


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
 

yumi

Jedi
Good morning!
I thought of Juno, even Pluto,... considering them as inclinations, in every sense of the word, and particularly in the negative sense in terms of exclusive control. I wonder if ,from a karmic/matrix point of view, like "blind spots" on our path, it also reveals our Achilles heel.
I was thinking of'a hades program or operation', in connection with the'cult of death', the three sisters; 36(9)3; as a means of deriving an unconscious flow.
in bulk, pythagoras would get his knowledge of the Sumerians, I was interested in the trapezius, but especially the soleus muscle and the elm tree.
http://www.acutempo.com

in musical terms, the feeling of an echo pulse. Quinte-based and trans-positive relationships; I hope to share soon.


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
just a look:
Artémis (homonymie) — Wikipédia

would there be a link between the unconscious and the "sector of thought" in the French sense of sect and the gold/illusion of time?
 

yumi

Jedi
alors... le son en sol
en terme de rencontre, de conduit et de "frontière"
de mon intuition, certainement en sol_ré , "sol_air" ; "terre_ciel"

1ere harmonique/intervalle/relation à soi=1: SOL_sol
" en bas = en haut " (octave=8)

2nde ... " relation à l'autre " (ré)
3ème ... " relation à l'âme " (la)
4éme ... " relation = information " (mi)
5ème ... " O = I " et "libre-arbitre subconscient" (si)
6ème ... STA (entre fa et fa# ?)
7ème ... (Do ?) (sol_do=4 + do_sol=5 ... =9)

je sais que les intervalles naturels sont "tronqués", d'un point de vue "esthétique/culturel" , peut-être dès le troisième ou quatrième octave (tessiture). À revoir cours d'électro-acoustique... à vérifier.

autre considération:
de 1 à 5, cycle court / de 1 à 7, cycle long.
...........................................
so... "lesson in ground"
in terms of meeting, driving and "border" or crest
of my intuition, certainly in G_D, "solar"

1st harmonic/interval/relationship to oneself=1 : SOL_sol
"down = up" (octave=8)

2nd ... "relationship to the other (D)
3rd... "The relationship to the soul (group) (A)
4th... "relationship = information (E)
5th ... "O = I" and "subconscious free will" (B) (G_B= tierce)
6th ... pure STA (between F and F# ?) "one law"
7th ... (Do ?) (sol_do=4 + do_sol=5 ... =9)

I know that natural intervals are "truncated", from an "cultural" point of view, perhaps from the third or fourth octave (range). To review electro-acoustics lessons... checking.

other consideration:
1 to 5, short cycle / 1 to 7, long cycle.

"...3535353535..." = soul music ? (rire)

j'espère avoir un retour sur votre ressenti.
I hope to get feedback on your feelings
 

Approaching Infinity

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This might contradict some of the intentions and perhaps assumptions behind some of the posts in this thread, but here it goes. In some of my posts recently I've been quoting from Collingwood's Principles of Art (see this post on the positive dissociation thread, for example). Without getting into all the details, Collingwood distinguishes art (the expression of emotion) from magic (the production of emotion for use in practical life). (I think his ideas of 'magic' might be in line with some of Gurdjieff's writing on 'objective art'. But that's not where I want to go here.)

If there is an esoteric 'meaning' to certain traditional forms of music, it might be helpful to think of them in 'magical' terms, the way Collingwood uses the term. Especially when combined with myth and ritual, in the context of an entire 'religious' worldview, music will serve a practical purpose in evoking the emotions necessary to continue the way of life of the people who produce such music. I don't think there's necessarily anything special about the music itself (e.g. any kind of special 'esoteric' properties), but rather that its place within the wider sphere of 'magical' practice produces the emotions, the sense of community through shared emotion, and the inspiration for certain practices (whether trance-inducement, a warlike mindset, patriotism, etc.)

But what about the music itself? Reading Collingwood's book reminded me of a book I read several years ago and which is one of my favourites: Deryck Cooke's The Language of Music. From the book description:

First published in 1959, this original study argues that the main characteristic of music is that it expresses and evokes emotion, and that all composers whose music has a tonal basis have used the same, or closely similar, melodic phrases, harmonies, and rhythms to affect the listener in the same ways. He supports this view with hundreds of musical examples, ranging from plainsong to Stravinsky, and contends that music is a language in the specific sense that we can identify idioms and draw up a list of meanings. The book's final section analyzes two symphonies, Mozart's Fortieth and Vaughan Williams's Sixth, to explore the nature of musical inspiration and the process whereby the notes actually convey emotion from composer to listener.
I'm not sure if Cooke read Collingwood, but their ideas are very similar. In the description above we can see how music can be both 'art' and 'magic'. As art, it will express emotions, but as magic, it will be purposely written to evoke certain emotions (usually in a cliched sense, as in pop songs, dance tunes, and potboiler film scores, as well as ritual music, the liturgy, national anthems, military songs, etc).

Cooke argues that at least in the Western tradition (he doesn't go so far as to say the 'meanings' he finds are universal, only that they are universally adhered to by Western composers) that certain melodic fragments and intervals evoke similar emotions. E.g., the minor sixth falling to the dominant fifth is the height of despair and sadness (e.g. F to E in A minor).

I'd just add that I don't think he's entirely correct. The falling minor sixth is not equivalent to despair. If it were, it would simply be despair. There would be no need for the music. Rather, it evokes a feeling like despair. It is the musical expression of despair, and hearing it is heart-wrenching in a way that actual despair isn't, simply because it is a musical experience and not any other. As Collingwood put it, "the emotions which we express in music can never be expressed in speech, and vice versa. Music is one order of languages and speech is another".

So if music is esoteric, I think it is esoteric in the sense that, to us, emotions are largely esoteric. Our emotional centers need work. We block certain emotions from consciousness, thereby corrupting it. And that will affect our listening to certain pieces of music, e.g., those that evoke certain uncomfortable emotions, or emotions which are perhaps too 'high' for us to resonate with. Perhaps we may not even be able to connect with certain types of music (e.g., from certain other cultures), because we are not ingrained in the full way of life in which such music serves its purpose. It expresses and evokes emotions with which we're unfamiliar and which serve no practical purpose in our daily life. But at the same time, certain forms of music may help in evoking emotions within us that we have yet to get in touch with. In that sense, along with the composer, we can 'express' an emotion which beforehand we had not brought to consciousness. And with it thus expressed, we have learned something and our emotional palette has become a bit more refined. And that emotional refinement will carry over into other areas of life: we will be more perceptive to the emotions of the moment.

So, in conclusion, maybe music is esoteric after all, but in the sense of the role it can play in self-knowledge and the expression of the depths of human feeling.
 
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yumi

Jedi
to mix harmonics and fifths cycles, it'll give nonsense. I'm not able to do "scientific" calculations or theories; but I have a preference for the natural harmonic aspect, which seems to correspond best with vaschaspati, bartok, natural mixolydian, acoustic modes; it takes us back to stories of "diabolical" tritone and golden number.what's funny is that it brings me back, musically to the same point where I thought I was stuck or limited, years ago. I guess it's a good sign to come back and share some inked musical ideas...as soon as it gets cooler upstairs.

C _ D _ E _ F#_ G _ (A)_ Bb

I suppose we should tune in A_432Hz (?)
it would also be related to the golden number.

otherwise, I apologize if I was able to present to you "false" ideas, because of my associations of ideas probably hasty, and having confidence in us to tune up as well as possible.

Do you know any musicians on this forum who share their work?
 

yumi

Jedi
"So, in conclusion, maybe music is esoteric after all, but in the sense of the role it can play in self-knowledge and the expression of the depths of human feeling."

Isn't this what we could call a form of therapy? from a personal and musical point of view, isn't it about learning? in other words, is there a preliminary step to take in order to harmonize as well as adopt a particular way of thinking?
 

Approaching Infinity

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"So, in conclusion, maybe music is esoteric after all, but in the sense of the role it can play in self-knowledge and the expression of the depths of human feeling."

Isn't this what we could call a form of therapy? from a personal and musical point of view, isn't it about learning? in other words, is there a preliminary step to take in order to harmonize as well as adopt a particular way of thinking?
I don't understand the last question. As for the first, I guess you could call it that, as long as it's understand as auto-psychotherapy and self-development, otherwise known as life.
 

yumi

Jedi
I don't understand the last question. As for the first, I guess you could call it that, as long as it's understand as auto-psychotherapy and self-development, otherwise known as life.
sorry for the clarity; in the idea of... if it is a question of inking "a particular frequency", can we consider ourselves as "harmonic components"?
 

John G

The Living Force
to mix harmonics and fifths cycles, it'll give nonsense. I'm not able to do "scientific" calculations or theories; but I have a preference for the natural harmonic aspect, which seems to correspond best with vaschaspati, bartok, natural mixolydian, acoustic modes; it takes us back to stories of "diabolical" tritone and golden number
Music and Physics

Octonion reflexion has given me a new dearly needed tool
to crack the code of musical harmony using octonions.

Intuition has told me that there is a connection but
I've only had three real clues to back it up.

1) 7 notes, 7 imaginaries
2) Tonika-Sub dominant-Dominant, quaternion triple
3) the octave *repeats* itself. It is fundamentally cyclic...

That the octave is a subset of the 12-tone scale
I interpret as the octonion being embedded in a larger geometrical structure...

We recall that the octonion has a 3 + 4 or a 3 + 1 + 3 structure...

| | || | | | | || || | |
| | || | | | | || || | |
| |_||_| | + | |_||_||_| |
| | | | | | | | |
|__|__|__| |__|__|__|__|
i j k E I J K

Each white key is separated by a black key except
at two points in the octave in which the white keys intersect.
This divides the octave into a 3 + 4 structure...
The keys corresponding to i,E and I are considered base harmonics.
I is called the Dominant because it "dominates" over E.
The reason is that harmonically IJK resembles ijk.
Just look at the keyboard.
The IJK section looks (and sounds) like a copy of the ijk section.

Finally we see a 3 + 1 + 3 structure if we play triad chords successively
throughout the octave (i-k-I, j-E-J, k-I-K, E-J-i, I-K-j, J-i-k, K-j-E)

These make up 3 Major chords, 3 minor chords and 1 diminished...

This discourse contains no evidence, only indications.
Firm evidence requires a thorough understanding of
the 12-structure which the octonion is embedded in.
If this structure can be understood then
I think we will have a theory of music...
The 12 structure may relate to things like my avatar (Enneagram in a cuboctahedron) and embedding 7 into 12 may relate to embedding densities into the Sefirot (in a cuboctahedron too) like Laura did in the Wave books (without the cuboctahedron part). Densities have a 3 - 1 - 3 (physical - variably physical - nonphysical) structure. White to Black key could be STS to STO-like. The cyclic aspect would be like 1st density coming from 7th density.
 

yumi

Jedi
thanks for the link!

As a reminder, it is a question of thinking in an unlimited way; and it is a question of infinite dimensions. The harmonic aspect allows this.
other consideration, about "geometry and algebra"; take 1 + the inverted symbol = î or M, in other words, from a symmetrical point of view (balance), you get an "arrow and a thunderbolt". two in one.
"never one without the other"
 
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