finding partners...

[Solar]

Yes. I don't find the neccessary schocks for the work elsewhere.

What about the news?? Very shocking stuff there!

The whole relationship dynamic is so rooted in our (by default unhealthy) attachment style, hormones, projections, and the resultant magical thinking that goodness, it sure does take a warrior to fight their way through it to find the Love for another individual!

For myself it's been a tough time learning to Love my own life, let alone anyone else's. At the age of 28 I can at least say that I'm not my father, by any means, and that's a result of the Love of Laura and the forum and all of the energy that's been invested into this work. If I don't first love the Truth with all of my heart, and devote myself to it, then how can I know the Truth of the woman I would love? I would not be capable of it, OSIT. How could I hear what she's saying, and see who she truly is, if one "I" decided "it" loved her and another "I" couldn't, and I had no control? Better to stick to developing my Truth seeking capacities and Being until she needs me, IMO.

Will definitely observe myself from here on in during interactions and when I'm surrounded by others! :)

Awesome! Learning is fun :)

Thanks Hesper. Talking about shock, a personal example:

I live in a part of the world and in a life situation where the news does not (yet) directly shock me. It is entirely clear to me why it should shock me, it just does not happen. I know this sounds pathetic on this forum, but this is the fact.
However, being a narcissist and OCD person, a heavy argument with my partner over "invading" my private space at home, makes me sit in tremor the day thereafter, rendering me 80% incapable of work at my workplace. Should I not be working with this "shock" instead, by recognizing the madness of the whole situation and deciding to act differently next time? By goint to therapy and finding solutions? A similarly pathologic story could be said about the partner.

A partnership creating such challenges has clearly nothing to do with the love you refer to, still falls under partnership category though. Two incomplete human beings, concious enough to recognize the challenges presented to each other in a relationship, and work on them willingly, together.

Does this have any validity?

 

[lainey]

I figure the day I no longer need a relationship because of all the above Biopsychosocial reasons, is the day it'll happen. And hopefully with someone in the exact same position. And it will be a slow learning process because we'll both be aware of all of the mechanical ways in which you can have a relationship.

Hopefully all of this is of some use - on a personal note I'm feeling somewhat cynical about relationships today so that may have coloured things

Everyone wants a relationship, and to be happy and have a 'normal' life. Problem is, we live in a world where doing that means letting the bad guys win. The fight isn't for everyone, but everyone can fight in their own way. :)

I could not have said it better myself. I don't see a point in looking for a relationship, that's just anticipation and I would have to assess my reasons for looking. I just have to get on with the fact that I'm by myself. I don't see how I could ever be with someone who is outside the work either. This may work for some people but if I ever have a partner again I would want them to know and understand every piece of me. If we don't speak the same "language" in terms of the work then how could I possibly start to forge a relationship based on honesty and truth seeking if they don't understand the concepts and ideals I choose to live by?
It makes me a little sad because I do miss the companionship but I know I cannot settle for anything that is not part of the aim. It is simply noise and distraction.

 

[herondancer]

I could not have said it better myself. I don't see a point in looking for a relationship, that's just anticipation and I would have to assess my reasons for looking. I just have to get on with the fact that I'm by myself. I don't see how I could ever be with someone who is outside the work either. This may work for some people but if I ever have a partner again I would want them to know and understand every piece of me. If we don't speak the same "language" in terms of the work then how could I possibly start to forge a relationship based on honesty and truth seeking if they don't understand the concepts and ideals I choose to live by?
It makes me a little sad because I do miss the companionship but I know I cannot settle for anything that is not part of the aim. It is simply noise and distraction.

Amen. These are the same conclusions I came to after my relationship broke down. If you can't share the most important part of your life, what kind of relationship is that? It can't be built on conversations on just the house, work, the kids and the dog. Some people can do it (my parents managed for 50 years), but it's was like slow death for me. Getting out was sad and miserable, but in the end it was better for me, and I hope for him.

 

[cubbex]

Pretty good points, great honesty shared here.

To me finding a partner is not much of a problem, it is about me being tolerant.

Sex was a deal with me before, but right now, and I don't know if this is the result of meditation or what. I just don't care, is all bias and nonsense. Sometimes I may feel that a woman is very good looking and maybe one day I may want a partner for sex but at the end of the day I just don't give a F***.

Of all the things i've learned, seen and experience sex is like one of the most irrelevant aspect of life.

But having a relationship with someone that is not hard. I mean is not like all people are secondary psychopaths, or ponerized people to be feared, all you need is strategic enclosure. Is like being a superhero. You find a partner with some common sense and capable of feeling empathy, and master yourself so you hold the work and all of that to you. If an action is a result of the work, then just do it or discuss it, if the other person may agree or not that may depend on how much respect each other has for the other. If there are problems, then just stop the relationship and move on.

No offense to you guys, but the idea of I can't take a relationship because I am too "weirdo" seems to me as a cheap excuse for not trying out and getting out of the comfort zone. At the end, the work is to make of you a top notch functional person, if you put attention to its laws and principles, they are to make you a very attractive person at least in a social way, even successful business person. The work is to be a master of yourself. Interest on esoteric knowledge can be independent of all of that.

Very interesting to read this, because I feel my view of how to approach this is diametrically opposed to what you wrote.

The way I read what you wrote is that esoteric knowledge and the work is independent of your life in general. From my point of view, one of the fundamental approaches to the work is the outmost cessation of activity that is not necessary for it. The work does not make you more attractive, or a more successful business person, it might give you the flexibility to do so when the situation demands it because you no longer carry around all of your fake I`s and fake personality. But reaching that point demands everything, so I cannot really see the reason for adding extra baggage in the form of a relationship, especially so in saying that its just to do it to get out of your comfort zone.

Seeking someone to be with just for the sake of feeling better, or just doing it because it won`t hurt your work, but actually help you, sounds like a snare to me.

I cannot really comment on those already in a relationship, but in my view, if you are young, in this western age, where the very concept of love has been so distorted and ponerized, the probability that you have escaped the negative impact it has had on you is low, including that you will find someone suitable on your own. If approaching a relationship, might it be best to sit down and raise some questions that need to be answered sincerely? Like:
• Will this really help me or am I searching for others to project my fear or weaknesses at?
• Is it necessary for the work? Will it give me shocks that I cannot find elsewhere?

The point being that it is probably best not to jump into something like that without careful consideration, because it might really hurt and trap you. I`m all for getting out of your comfort zone to practice observation and self-remembering, but you can do that elsewhere without the severe long-term consequences that might follow if you jump into something like this to soon imho.

I doubt it, specially after reading several times Laura and others saying in books and here that first we need to learn how to be good obvyvatels, to my understanding, a normal functional being that is not pathological. If you can't be that, and take esoteric knowledge as a training that alienates you then I think I haven't to this point understand what esoteric knowledge is.

To me esoteric knowledge is about the universe, some sort of understanding of the hidden meaning of things, the methapor in all of things, how everything mirror everything; as above so below. Behavior and perception may be connected but they may not be running at the same speed. Some people may know a lot but apply a little. Once you have or acquire this esoteric knowledge is in my perception that one detaches oneself from the influence of the immediate group and culture, one is only influenced by knowledge. That's why, if the work is towards being a master of one self then a relationship shouldn't be a problem. I guess I've read an article about Gurdjieff and sex, some people said he had a lot of lovers.

 

[hlat]

It seems to me that Gurdjieff made a lot of mistakes when it came to sex with many women, so I don't think he is some kind of role model or someone to emulate in regards to this issue.

 

[Flow]

I doubt it, specially after reading several times Laura and others saying in books and here that first we need to learn how to be good obvyvatels, to my understanding, a normal functional being that is not pathological. If you can't be that, and take esoteric knowledge as a training that alienates you then I think I haven't to this point understand what esoteric knowledge is.

To me esoteric knowledge is about the universe, some sort of understanding of the hidden meaning of things, the methapor in all of things, how everything mirror everything; as above so below. Behavior and perception may be connected but they may not be running at the same speed. Some people may know a lot but apply a little. Once you have or acquire this esoteric knowledge is in my perception that one detaches oneself from the influence of the immediate group and culture, one is only influenced by knowledge. That's why, if the work is towards being a master of one self then a relationship shouldn't be a problem. I guess I've read an article about Gurdjieff and sex, some people said he had a lot of lovers.

I don't understand this . If, as you said, everything mirror everything, then what do you mean by "behavior and perception may be connected but they may not be running at the same speed"?

If I understand you, you think esoteric knowledge is, let's say, theory, and work on "master of one self" is practice?
And when you say when somebody master himself then relationship shouldn't be a problem, what do you mean?
Can you explain this more?

 

[Keit]

It seems to me that Gurdjieff made a lot of mistakes when it came to sex with many women, so I don't think he is some kind of role model or someone to emulate in regards to this issue.

Yeah, Caesar's soldiers didn't call him jokely "bald philanderer" for nothing, either. ;) But then, Laura said the following:

We don't know that Caesar loved and protected Cleopatra. Nothing he did was outside the bounds of political expediency. And her claim (through Antony) to have borne his child is highly questionable.

So it's possible that what he did back then had a specific purpose, and maybe G. had a specific purpose too. It doesn't mean that what they did was "right", maybe it was just what is or what is "right" for that specific time and period. Or maybe it was a mistake, or several, since nobody is perfect. Sometimes it's hard not to judge or not to expect our role model to behave in a specific way. But then it's also a good reminder to the self that luckily reality isn't black and white, and while there are truly "irredeemable" deeds, there are things we all do that wouldn't exactly considered to be "noble".

The main point is, that from the historical point of view, what's important is what this person did beside having various vices, and how those deeds shaped and influenced further events and people. Did this person help or hinder, did he build or destroy, etc.? This way person's conduct isn't being examined independently, but as a part of the society he or she were members of. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't always strive to be our best. fwiw.

 

[Hesper]

Thanks Hesper. Talking about shock, a personal example:

I live in a part of the world and in a life situation where the news does not (yet) directly shock me. It is entirely clear to me why it should shock me, it just does not happen. I know this sounds pathetic on this forum, but this is the fact.
However, being a narcissist and OCD person, a heavy argument with my partner over "invading" my private space at home, makes me sit in tremor the day thereafter, rendering me 80% incapable of work at my workplace. Should I not be working with this "shock" instead, by recognizing the madness of the whole situation and deciding to act differently next time? By goint to therapy and finding solutions? A similarly pathologic story could be said about the partner.

A partnership creating such challenges has clearly nothing to do with the love you refer to, still falls under partnership category though. Two incomplete human beings, concious enough to recognize the challenges presented to each other in a relationship, and work on them willingly, together.

Does this have any validity?

Well that's concerning, to say the least! Since our lives mirror who we are I would say yes, your approach does have validity, and maybe this is the shock that you need in order to be "touched by your reality". So have the two of you improved through your relationship? Or have things deteriorated to the point where you are trembling after an argument? If you were an animal in the wild, and you had repeated interactions with something that completely incapacitated you for the following day(s), you'd end up dead.

Through checking out your previous posts it looks like you've been on a steady battle to adopt a more or less ketogenic diet, have been reading through all of the materials (though maybe a little hesitant to read the Big 5 psychology books?), and you are maybe not doing EE. Have you implemented EE yet? It was critical for to me to begin to regulate my emotions with much more efficiency. It could be what you need. You COULD beat your head against a brick wall concerning your emotional difficulties with your partner, or there could be a much more efficient way to heal these deep emotional wounds and you could move on and take the next step. We are all at a crossroads, the world is at a crossroads, and for you not to be shocked by the horrifying reality of global psychopathy, like an infant being devoured by a python, is itself terrifying IMO.

One thing you wrote about a year ago:

One program that has been ruining my relationships for 10 years is the one 'Miss Isness' has mentioned here in this thread back in 2007: "I can only be free if I am alone".

I wonder if this thread would have information that helps? Attachment avoidance: Addiction to alone time Again, EE can work wonders for this, if you get out and moving and help make the world a better place IMO. Thank you for sharing.

From the thread:

The Avoidant child is offspring to the dismissive/derogating parent who is unconcerned with attachment behaviors and values (Slade, 2000; Sroufe, 1985). This gives rise to a deconditioning of proximity seeking and contact maintaining behaviors within the child. The child turns away from interactive regulation and toward autoregulation, which is a strategy for self‐soothing and selfstimulation. Margaret Mahler (1975) discovered that a normal child in the practicing subphase can tolerate physical distance from Mother by maintaining a fantasy of her omnipresence. This provides the child with a necessary, albeit false sense of security for extended play within the outside world. The adult Avoidant is able to maintain a dissociative but stable autoregulatory strategy that depends on a fantasy of a partner’s omnipresence. This pseudosecure tactic can metaphorically envisioned with the phrase, "I want you in the house but not in my room unless I invite you." (Tatkin, 2009) This sentiment expresses the Avoidant’s need for continual but implicit proximity to the primary attachment figure minus the problem of explicit proximity which is experienced as intrusive and disruptive to the autoregulatory strategy.

For the Avoidant, external disruptions of the autoregulatory state are experienced ‐‐ to a greater or lesser degree – as a shock to the nervous system. First there is the sensory intrusion aurally, visually, or tactically by an approaching person which may be experienced as startling, followed by a social demand to state shift from an autoregulatory‐timeless (dissociative) mode to an interactive‐realtime mode. One is more energy‐conserving and the other more energy‐expending. For the distancing group, both are experientially non‐reciprocal, meaning neither state involves expected rewards from another person. In autoregulation, no other person is required or wanted. However, during the initial shift to interactive realtime mode the other person is viewed as demanding with no expected reward or reciprocity.

edit: made the quote easier to read

 

[Solar]

Thanks Hesper. Talking about shock, a personal example:

I live in a part of the world and in a life situation where the news does not (yet) directly shock me. It is entirely clear to me why it should shock me, it just does not happen. I know this sounds pathetic on this forum, but this is the fact.
However, being a narcissist and OCD person, a heavy argument with my partner over "invading" my private space at home, makes me sit in tremor the day thereafter, rendering me 80% incapable of work at my workplace. Should I not be working with this "shock" instead, by recognizing the madness of the whole situation and deciding to act differently next time? By goint to therapy and finding solutions? A similarly pathologic story could be said about the partner.

A partnership creating such challenges has clearly nothing to do with the love you refer to, still falls under partnership category though. Two incomplete human beings, concious enough to recognize the challenges presented to each other in a relationship, and work on them willingly, together.

Does this have any validity?

Well that's concerning, to say the least! Since our lives mirror who we are I would say yes, your approach does have validity, and maybe this is the shock that you need in order to be "touched by your reality". So have the two of you improved through your relationship? Or have things deteriorated to the point where you are trembling after an argument? If you were an animal in the wild, and you had repeated interactions with something that completely incapacitated you for the following day(s), you'd end up dead.

Through checking out your previous posts it looks like you've been on a steady battle to adopt a more or less ketogenic diet, have been reading through all of the materials (though maybe a little hesitant to read the Big 5 psychology books?), and you are maybe not doing EE. Have you implemented EE yet? It was critical for to me to begin to regulate my emotions with much more efficiency. It could be what you need. You COULD beat your head against a brick wall concerning your emotional difficulties with your partner, or there could be a much more efficient way to heal these deep emotional wounds and you could move on and take the next step. We are all at a crossroads, the world is at a crossroads, and for you not to be shocked by the horrifying reality of global psychopathy, like an infant being devoured by a python, is itself terrifying IMO.

One thing you wrote about a year ago:

One program that has been ruining my relationships for 10 years is the one 'Miss Isness' has mentioned here in this thread back in 2007: "I can only be free if I am alone".

I wonder if this thread would have information that helps? Attachment avoidance: Addiction to alone time Again, EE can work wonders for this, if you get out and moving and help make the world a better place IMO. Thank you for sharing.

From the thread:

The Avoidant child is offspring to the dismissive/derogating parent who is unconcerned with attachment behaviors and values (Slade, 2000; Sroufe, 1985). This gives rise to a deconditioning of proximity seeking and contact maintaining behaviors within the child. The child turns away from interactive regulation and toward autoregulation, which is a strategy for self‐soothing and selfstimulation. Margaret Mahler (1975) discovered that a normal child in the practicing subphase can tolerate physical distance from Mother by maintaining a fantasy of her omnipresence. This provides the child with a necessary, albeit false sense of security for extended play within the outside world. The adult Avoidant is able to maintain a dissociative but stable autoregulatory strategy that depends on a fantasy of a partner’s omnipresence. This pseudosecure tactic can metaphorically envisioned with the phrase, "I want you in the house but not in my room unless I invite you." (Tatkin, 2009) This sentiment expresses the Avoidant’s need for continual but implicit proximity to the primary attachment figure minus the problem of explicit proximity which is experienced as intrusive and disruptive to the autoregulatory strategy.

For the Avoidant, external disruptions of the autoregulatory state are experienced ‐‐ to a greater or lesser degree – as a shock to the nervous system. First there is the sensory intrusion aurally, visually, or tactically by an approaching person which may be experienced as startling, followed by a social demand to state shift from an autoregulatory‐timeless (dissociative) mode to an interactive‐realtime mode. One is more energy‐conserving and the other more energy‐expending. For the distancing group, both are experientially non‐reciprocal, meaning neither state involves expected rewards from another person. In autoregulation, no other person is required or wanted. However, during the initial shift to interactive realtime mode the other person is viewed as demanding with no expected reward or reciprocity.

edit: made the quote easier to read

To answer your questions first. All in all, I think there is more truth in our relationship now as a few years ago. However the truth is turning out to be very ugly, that's why I must also conclude that it has been deterioriating, instead of being maintained in a more "pleasant" state kept up by lies, misconceptions and a dominance-dependency pattern. All this is falling apart now and it hurts, and I am (we are) kicking and screaming.
Your insight is very good, there is really no other way to get me in "touch with my reality". I am not only indifferent towards what's happening in the world, but towards my colleagues and pretty much everybody except my partner.

After two failed attempts at going keto, I switched back to Paleo and stabilised this diet in my life. I am actually making good progress wih the recommended readings, including Narcissism Big 5, but I can't bring myself to doing EE. After watching the video about it, I felt absolutely no motivation of doing it. I had utter failures with other "bodily oriented" methods too (like MBSR). With psychotherapy, I am experiencing good progress, because it involves self-analysis, to which I feel motivated.

Secondly, big thanks for the link to the thread about avoidant attachment types. This is precisely the information I was looking for since I wrote the lines you quoted from me.

 

[RedFox]

After two failed attempts at going keto, I switched back to Paleo and stabilised this diet in my life. I am actually making good progress wih the recommended readings, including Narcissism Big 5, but I can't bring myself to doing EE. After watching the video about it, I felt absolutely no motivation of doing it. I had utter failures with other "bodily oriented" methods too (like MBSR). With psychotherapy, I am experiencing good progress, because it involves self-analysis, to which I feel motivated.

Secondly, big thanks for the link to the thread about avoidant attachment types. This is precisely the information I was looking for since I wrote the lines you quoted from me.

Well it sounds like you're depressed. One thing is for sure, feeling worthless and holding onto negative relationships (because it's better than the pain of no relationship or so it seems) will do that.

Covert Depression

I would hazard a guess that you haven't attempted cold showers either? Both cold showers and EE do the same thing in different ways - they increase will power.
EE is a more gentle approach, cold showers reset your tolerance levels to (overcoming/feeling) pain - assuming you go in with the right attitude though.
If you feel (through past experience) 'you will fail' (which is emotionally painful) and you have a low tolerance to pain, then you will avoid it. If you do attempt it, that avoidance of/fighting through pain will amplify it. Took me a while to work that out!
You actually have to embrace it in a relaxed way, and reassure your automatic fight/flight/danger system that you're not about to drop dead. The anticipation of pain amplifies it if all your experiences with pain have been overwhelming. Gaining experiencing of being present with and overcoming pain reverses that.

Both EE and cold showers also have something else in common, they work better if you relax into it. You can derail EE by tensing up, and you can tense up automatically if you have grown up feeling that to relax is a danger to your existence. I would add that it's likely (given your relationship status) to be about loving connections to others that a major point of this 'must not let my guard down' comes from. EE releases oxytocin which you get from a genuine loving connection to others, and if that is dangerous based on your experiences then it would be a reason to avoid it (unconsciously).

In short 'I can't handle this (pain)' may be a narrative that is playing.
Given life is painful (and joyful!) it becomes an act of contortion to avoid life (and thus it's painful side), uses masses of energy, and ultimately (through avoidance, depression from seeing 'no way out' and lack of energy) amplifies any pain, even causing phantom pain where none exists (excess worrying, feeling mortally wounded by emotions of others etc). The pain is real, the trigger though needs to be reset. fwiw

This thread may also be of help. If nothing is working for you and things resonate, perhaps DBT may help? It gives you a way to self analyze and emotionally regulate. Emotional deregulation directly ties to how much pain you feel (and avoid).

 

[Solar]

After two failed attempts at going keto, I switched back to Paleo and stabilised this diet in my life. I am actually making good progress wih the recommended readings, including Narcissism Big 5, but I can't bring myself to doing EE. After watching the video about it, I felt absolutely no motivation of doing it. I had utter failures with other "bodily oriented" methods too (like MBSR). With psychotherapy, I am experiencing good progress, because it involves self-analysis, to which I feel motivated.

Secondly, big thanks for the link to the thread about avoidant attachment types. This is precisely the information I was looking for since I wrote the lines you quoted from me.

Well it sounds like you're depressed. One thing is for sure, feeling worthless and holding onto negative relationships (because it's better than the pain of no relationship or so it seems) will do that.

Covert Depression

I would hazard a guess that you haven't attempted cold showers either? Both cold showers and EE do the same thing in different ways - they increase will power.
EE is a more gentle approach, cold showers reset your tolerance levels to (overcoming/feeling) pain - assuming you go in with the right attitude though.
If you feel (through past experience) 'you will fail' (which is emotionally painful) and you have a low tolerance to pain, then you will avoid it. If you do attempt it, that avoidance of/fighting through pain will amplify it. Took me a while to work that out!
You actually have to embrace it in a relaxed way, and reassure your automatic fight/flight/danger system that you're not about to drop dead. The anticipation of pain amplifies it if all your experiences with pain have been overwhelming. Gaining experiencing of being present with and overcoming pain reverses that.

Both EE and cold showers also have something else in common, they work better if you relax into it. You can derail EE by tensing up, and you can tense up automatically if you have grown up feeling that to relax is a danger to your existence. I would add that it's likely (given your relationship status) to be about loving connections to others that a major point of this 'must not let my guard down' comes from. EE releases oxytocin which you get from a genuine loving connection to others, and if that is dangerous based on your experiences then it would be a reason to avoid it (unconsciously).

In short 'I can't handle this (pain)' may be a narrative that is playing.
Given life is painful (and joyful!) it becomes an act of contortion to avoid life (and thus it's painful side), uses masses of energy, and ultimately (through avoidance, depression from seeing 'no way out' and lack of energy) amplifies any pain, even causing phantom pain where none exists (excess worrying, feeling mortally wounded by emotions of others etc). The pain is real, the trigger though needs to be reset. fwiw

This thread may also be of help. If nothing is working for you and things resonate, perhaps DBT may help? It gives you a way to self analyze and emotionally regulate. Emotional deregulation directly ties to how much pain you feel (and avoid).

All of what you wrote makes very much sense. About cold showers, I have actually started to do them a week ago, so your post is very timely. I started it just for fun, I was impressed with the physical benefits it can bring: improved resistance of the body, I also had the idea that it will help me with my issues of being cold all the time. I was selectively reading the threads about cold showers, and overlooked the benefits you mention: willpower and ultimately support for emotional regulation. The good news is that I think I can keep on doing cold showers because unlike EE, I am able to bring myself to do it every day with relatively little effort.

 

[RedFox]

That's great to hear Solar! :)
Perhaps you could have a go at EE in stages? I know that at the very least Pipe Breathing has been extremely useful to me in stressful situations (blood tests, driving in new places, plane flights etc).
If you can do it but notice no effect, then it may offer some clues about feeling safe as I mentioned above.

Perhaps a better route would be more body work perhaps, such as Rolfing if you are not over sensitive to touch/pressure. If you are sensitive, general massage and Myofascial release would help.

 

[Hesper]

To answer your questions first. All in all, I think there is more truth in our relationship now as a few years ago. However the truth is turning out to be very ugly, that's why I must also conclude that it has been deterioriating, instead of being maintained in a more "pleasant" state kept up by lies, misconceptions and a dominance-dependency pattern. All this is falling apart now and it hurts, and I am (we are) kicking and screaming.
Your insight is very good, there is really no other way to get me in "touch with my reality". I am not only indifferent towards what's happening in the world, but towards my colleagues and pretty much everybody except my partner.

This is where you're at. No one expects anybody to be more than what they are. And the degree to which you choose your own evolution is the degree to which you will get in touch with not just "your" reality, but objective reality more and more every day. Our lives are the mirror of what we are. Feel free to start a thread in the swamp to help facilitate a slow and deliberate reflection of what you are going through.

Secondly, big thanks for the link to the thread about avoidant attachment types. This is precisely the information I was looking for since I wrote the lines you quoted from me.

Fantastic! This is the kind of Love I was talking about. I hope you've got a "snapshot" of yourself as you found this new information. It could be useful for comparing to "everyday life". IMO just keep following that thread then, tugging for more and more objective information, and have fun! It sounds like you have not had the best relationships, and you're being eaten alive in this one (and vice versa). Carve out some time to feed the "You" in there that thrives only through Truth, and please share your journey with us. :)

That's great to hear Solar! :)
Perhaps you could have a go at EE in stages? I know that at the very least Pipe Breathing has been extremely useful to me in stressful situations (blood tests, driving in new places, plane flights etc).
If you can do it but notice no effect, then it may offer some clues about feeling safe as I mentioned above.

Perhaps a better route would be more body work perhaps, such as Rolfing if you are not over sensitive to touch/pressure. If you are sensitive, general massage and Myofascial release would help.

Great advice! If you're willing to do cold showers then EE might not be so much a problem of willpower but maybe a problem with being immobilized for longer periods of time. Just doing a little bit at a time, like the pipe breathing, and taking it step by step is great advice. Here's a thread for more info on the fear of immobilization:

In an Unspoken Voice - Peter Levine

Traumatized individuals are disembodied and "disemboweled" (since the gut reactions are so overwhelming that they are shut down). They are either overwhelmed by their bodily sensations or massively shut down against them. In either case, they are unable to differentiate between various sensations as well as unable to determine appropriate actions.

The degree to which we cannot deeply feel our body's interior is the degree to which we crave excessive external stimulation.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[lainey]

I remember reading on the EE guide that it was normal to do the 3 stage breathing in the morning as it was so invigorating, then the beatha in the afternoon/evening and the meditation just before going to sleep. It might help to break it up into three like this (or two and skip the beatha it is the most intense part for some) then it is only committing a small part of the morning to EE then again at night. It might not seem like such a task then. Good luck with your practice and well done on the cold showers!

 

[Menna]

It seems to me that Gurdjieff made a lot of mistakes when it came to sex with many women, so I don't think he is some kind of role model or someone to emulate in regards to this issue.

He didn't make mistakes when it came to having sex with women he knew what he was doing and new what he wanted and got it. In his book he paints a picture of him laying down in the desert next to a body of water thinking about his life and in this time of reflection he talks about how his manipulative ways using his psyche power over others - with women, men, people with whom he could get something from would keep him from advancing - keep him going around in circles.

I also don't think its "right" or Objective to talk about people who lived over thousands of years ago and comment on their sexual lifestyle one because who can really know the objective facts about a relationship thousands of years old people dont know the objective facts about a relationship that ended 4 months ago and two the times back then society and the word were extremely different.

For example hypathetically if we grew up in a society where it was ok to pick up any bicycle left on the street and use it as your own for transportation this wasn't a big deal it was a normal occurrence. Then 1,700 years later that act is viewed as theft but back then it was a society/human norm. To comment on a persons character negatively because they did something 1,700 years ago that is viewed as morally wrong today - to put that persons actions in todays world and judge them from todays morals and opinions.standards is unfair to that person and emotionally can cloud ones view of this person. I am talking about Caesar when I say thousand of years ago obviously G is not that old however make no mistake about it he knew exactly what he was doing he knew he was using his "powers" for the self. He did realize that using his "powers" for self would limit his growth