finding partners...

[luke wilson]

Thank you for your words menna. I don't think its harsh you being honest about how you feel/think.

Getting back on point regarding finding partners and gaining real life experience, well actually, I interacted with quite a few girls over the months and with some things moved onto the romantic sphere but If you need to know, I'm still a virgin. The closest I came to not being a virgin is when this one girl wanted to go back and have some more fun but I said that I don't see any reason why we should rush anything since we were having a good enough time already. The point of telling you this is because it didn't dawn on me at the time the magnitude of what this could potentially mean to me, to no longer be a virgin. I was happy and ok to just enjoy the moment, my mind didn't think about this other dimension, not until I recounted the story to a friend who then explained the magnitude.

Anyways, I dipped my toes into that pool of sexual interaction and back out again mainly because I didn't like what it was doing to me. I didnt like going into an interaction with a girl with that aim. I still interact with various people but just on a platonic getting to know/understand people better. In fact, I try to be as social as I can, to get into the world, just immerse myself in life. Same as at work. I interact with various people on a social level and also volunteer myself for stuff beyond the job. Also general travel and going off the beaten path to push against comfort and preconceived views plus gain awareness. All these menna, is so as to gain experience! The much vaunted thing you keep telling me about.

Regarding finding a partner, well, that's not really one of my primary or even secondary aims now and I think I've been fooling myself that it is. How I act is different from what I've been telling myself I want. I am surprisingly quite independent within myself and don't really need a partner to fulfill my life. Maybe to experience heterosexual sexuality yes but beyond that, there is not much a romantic partner can give you that you cant get from a well developed platonic relationship. So ok, that's my position.

In terms of providing a shock, I don't see what it is I am wrong in how I am. I have identified the areas if improvement required from all the feedback: Zero porn, reading books regularly, cut sugar addiction. Regarding other things discussed in the work, working towards being a good obybatel, performing daily duties, reading news, overcoming social anxiety/fear, being responsive to other people, not reacting blindly to emotion, networking etc etc I'm already dealing with so all in all, I don't think I'm a train veering out of control about to collide into a cliff wall. Maybe you can see stuff I can't but anyways, that's how things look like from my position.

 

[Chad]

Who would answer no to this question

More people would answer "who has time for that" or "I would like to but..." or "who cares" rather than answer yes. I don't think you realize with all of your being how lucky you are to find the forum in this time frame on earth. It has only been around for a short time and here is an opportunity to do the work and grow as a person to live a life that goes towards your aim to figure out life a little and maybe a hint to answers of the great questions of the universe and learn objectively about yourself as a person.
[...]
The 4th way is about living life not stepping outside for a breath of air then running back to the computer and complaining about the air and how you thought it would be fresher and intellectualizing on why the air wasn't so fresh. There has to be a change in your daily life and it has to come from a deep place and place of value I don't know how to make that happen and its not my job to but I feel you use the forum to a fault as a crutch. [...]

Luke, i wanted to comment earlier, but i didn't because i wasn't sure whether it was for another thread or whether it was still relevant. Part of the reason is, more experienced members are truly reaching out but, in some ways, you're dodging the deeper meaning and racing ahead - osit. And i don't know whether this is to avoid something or it's like frustration or ..

This actually may be helpful identifying what's going on and it's certainly not intended to be critical or negative.

With confidence, i think the first highlighted part is quite accurate. And i believe you have acknowledged something similar before. Something along the lines of: you essentially still considered the forum as more of a edifying area of your life, rather than, for myself anyway, that 'thing' that i was searching for. That thing that you begin to consider in many of your daily decisions. Or at least you realise, and are thankful for, these tools, this education, this network of people who are actually doing something for you even your own family/closest friends/partners couldn't. And why don't we ask our families/friends the same that we ask of the forum? Because we can't - and the reason we can't is the reason we 're here, osit.

I think one of your i's would be tempted to say no. Hence the phrasing of your reply - osit. And it sounds like it does want to go back to sleep. But to be clear, i have my own i's just waiting to be tucked in! But if it's there, we must make it conscious, IF we want to progress.

Of course everyone is different and in no way do i think you necessarily take the fourm or members too lightheartedly or are disrespectful.

I get the impression that your future considerations, maybe reflected in this thread, don't incorporate the objective reality, out there. That you are actually quite looking forward to a successful career, family, a bit of travelling, a bit of 'the work' and to live happily ever after, or something.

Because this may be where the discrepancy lies. It's not that any of that isn't possible - the future is open - or that you shouldn’t aspire/aim to any of it - i can't tell ya for sure because i'm a beginner. But if you truly internalised all that is said here, you may realise it's certainly not an easy path, if it's to be done in truth.

Hence, i think, the bamboozlement at some of the comments you've made: a grey world, the previous pining for 'some' relationship - rather than acknowledging ones programmes, those in others, the difficulties these present, the cons for bringing a child into this world. Also, to be fair, i think it's a bit ...poor show that you still haven't committed to the diet - in any meaningful way - and i don't think i'm being mean here! If anything it exemplifies how you treat the information presented here. Same goes for the world being grey: we've been gifted - after decades of toil - information that tells us this is absolutely not true (not discounting depression, because yeah, things look grey sometimes).

And that's why i think 'deep' is accurate. As above and elsewhere, i have talked about how i am fundamentally changed since finding the forum. I remember sitting on my bed asking, after a time listening to some right ol' garbage (that i believed!), and actually saying out loud that i just wanted the truth.

I don't know how to say it... But, maybe something like: Should the BBM continue as is, stuttering along but the economy just about floating, people are in work, in 10 years time, would you still be networking here? is my supposition about your 'dreams' anywhere near accurate?

Not that it's an easy answer or even that clear cut, or maybe the right question, but i do think the question of what your personal aim is, and then to see how is it collinear with the aims of the forum or even the news on sott.net? Does it even correlate in any way? Does it incorporate what you've learned? And perhaps these are rhetorical, because only you can answer them and only you can know it is true.

I can appreciate how it is to be hyper and how this can come across but as earlier, i think we're kinda hitting a wall because 'something' isn't being addressed, rather than we're misunderstanding your thinking.

[quote author=LukeWilson]In terms of providing a shock, I don't see what it is I am wrong in how I am. I have identified the areas if improvement required from all the feedback: Zero porn, reading books regularly, cut sugar addiction. Regarding other things discussed in the work, working towards being a good obybatel, performing daily duties, reading news, overcoming social anxiety/fear, being responsive to other people, not reacting blindly to emotion, networking etc etc I'm already dealing with so all in all, I don't think I'm a train veering out of control about to collide into a cliff wall. Maybe you can see stuff I can't but anyways, that's how things look like from my position.[/quote]

So for me, i think you've contributed to the forum in such a way that has been of real value and i value your participation. But i wonder if you truly comprehend the value of the forum. Not that you don't 'value' it, do you comprehend the value of it? In the wider context of this madness and the universe at large? And if so, why is this still not reflected in your actions? (diet etc.. lustful feelings are tough hence the compassion, understanding and advice given towards all struggling - me included.)

 

[lilyalic]

In terms of providing a shock, I don't see what it is I am wrong in how I am. I have identified the areas if improvement required from all the feedback: Zero porn, reading books regularly, cut sugar addiction. Regarding other things discussed in the work, working towards being a good obybatel, performing daily duties, reading news, overcoming social anxiety/fear, being responsive to other people, not reacting blindly to emotion, networking etc etc I'm already dealing with so all in all, I don't think I'm a train veering out of control about to collide into a cliff wall. Maybe you can see stuff I can't but anyways, that's how things look like from my position.

I'm not sure if I'm way off here but what you wrote reminded me of what Mouravieff said in Gnosis about the iron filings..
He said we can refer to all those little "I's" within us as iron filings, and that once we received a 'shock' of some kind (through internal observation, or in this case it's usually mirroring from the forum and then we do the internal observation) - these iron filings get set of fire and start to burn. So a 'shock' causes a fire, and we're meant to keep this fire alight by observing and working on ourselves etc.

This made me think that the shock has to be great enough to create the fire. Have you ever read something on the forum or discovered something about yourself that turns you upside down and inside out? Or did it sicken you to realize certain things, did you go emotionally crazy? I can only refer to this because I know what it is like to receive a shock that can set my iron filings on fire. I'd cry for hours and literally be disgusted in all those I's that kept themselves hidden and kept me from seeing the truth about myself. To be honest, I can't even describe what is it like other than totally devastating at that moment in time when you realize, or when you've been mirrored on here. (the feelings remind me of the First Initiation)

I'm saying this because, yeah you can see what you need to work on and it's been pointed out... but there seems to be no emotional ties to it, like you haven't truly seen/felt it as much as you should. And then I think of what Mourvavieff said about speaking with our true selves, and that it's usually very hard to put things into words - if we're not speaking with our true selves it's usually an old record playing from our programming. I think that's what Menna was getting at when he was talking about you intellectualizing everything.

 

[luke wilson]

God! What is being said that I'm missing?

I consider the forum to be a central part of my life. Any failings on my part is not a reflection of how I view the forum. Its just an indication that I have stuff I need to deal with. Everyone has problems! Maybe you are saying that my attitude towards my problems isn't one that conveys willingness to overcome them?

The forum is a central part in my life and I've never really felt the need to prove this, like a show of commitment and loyalty type thinking. Isn't that unnecessary way of being? I take it quite seriously the work that is done here and as much as it is central in my life, I understand it is the sun and center of the universe to others, who have committed their whole lives to it e.g. Laura and her family.

Sadly for me my family has made no such commitments and I also have obligations to them, no matter the pain and suffering I may have suffered at the hands of poor parenting. Talking about not taking things for granted, I don't take those who brought me into the world for granted. So they are also central to me.

Work and daily obligations is also very central. You'll know how important it is when you have nothing and no safety net from anywhere to fall on. So yeah, I take that seriously and I appreciate that I am not out on the streets sleeping rough.

Normal everyday friends are also very important because I know what it is like to have no friends, to be completely engulfed by depression loneliness and no hope.

In short I appreciate to the absolute maximum everything that the universe has gifted me with and I am 100% committed to each and everyone one of this things.

Its hard living life and trying to be perfect to each single aspect. I cant be perfect to my parents, to my friends, to whatever work I may have at any single moment and surely not to the forum. But I sure can try to be good enough to all.

Maybe my problem is that I value way to many things and need to split out things into a hierarchy. Everything I have, including my health, body, mind and soul plus all I come to interact with is beyond me, its something given to me from somewhere else and so I respect each part but clearly I have developed some faults. Its like the totality of this is a spaceship and some crazy person threw me in the cockpit and said fly it. Living is bloody hard business, I didn't go to no flight school. Anyways I'm trying to say that I'm trying!

Right, sooo.. are we communicating or is there still a wall between us. If the wall is still there, then I have to say maybe I just don't understand what is being broadcasted? Do we need to lay blame for this situation. Maybe I am at fault, for not understanding, maybe you are at fault for not breaking it down to my level, maybe the fault is shared. I don't know but please know I take this stuff seriously. More seriously than you think, I have obligations all over the place and they are all like suns and centers of galaxies. I cant do the max for each but I can do enough!

 

[Oxajil]

In short I appreciate to the absolute maximum everything that the universe has gifted me with and I am 100% committed to each and everyone one of this things.

Got the big 5 at home plus other books I've been collecting but not reading. [...] At any time I have a book from the list in my bag but I'd be lying if I said I read it as much as I should.

Perhaps luke it would help you if you swap some forum time with some reading time, and to start reading the psychology books as recommended by RedFox earlier in this thread. Generally, I get the impression from your posts that it's difficult for you to follow one line of thought, you tend to write without restricting yourself or without allowing yourself to read it over and ask yourself if what you've written is actually relevant to the topic, or helpful to others. Seeing that you've already read some recommended books, I wonder if when you read a book, you go through it in a 'racey' manner, preventing yourself to pick stuff up. If this is the case, then perhaps doing what 'it' doesn't like in your case, means to read more, and to do so as intently as possible. Fwiw.

 

[RedFox]

God! What is being said that I'm missing?
[..]
Right, sooo.. are we communicating or is there still a wall between us. If the wall is still there, then I have to say maybe I just don't understand what is being broadcasted? Do we need to lay blame for this situation. Maybe I am at fault, for not understanding, maybe you are at fault for not breaking it down to my level, maybe the fault is shared. I don't know but please know I take this stuff seriously. More seriously than you think, I have obligations all over the place and they are all like suns and centers of galaxies. I cant do the max for each but I can do enough!

I think this is the crux of it, there is a wall.
What I see is several lukes. Some of the more obvious ones, and how they present themselves: one who is sort of blahzay and superficial (never touches the center, so part of the wall), one who is deflective (part of the wall) through over intellectualizing, one who panics and feels the world is falling appart (not sure if the mind goes into overdrive at this point, but if it does, again this is part of the wall), one who fantasizes energetically (puts energy into the wall), and one who seems to be a scared kid (looks for authority - is numb to the inside).

It's kind of like watching a camelion change in order to avoid predators, and stay hidden. As such, we don't get to see the real luke, and the knowledge just seems to be brushed off.
After watching this dance that lots of people have seen, what is going on?
The problem is this camelion moves at the speed of light!

It's likely your wall is this ability to shift in the blink of an eye from one state to another. Your automatic/unconscious mind.
My best guess as to why, is avoidance of 'sitting with' uncomfortable feelings.
To use the analogy of heating the iron filings above, as soon as you sense heat you either jump away from it in the blink of an eye, or crumple into a heap not knowing what to do with it.

None of this is uncommon. What needs to be understood is how mechanical we all are, and how we mechanically avoid the things we don't like - until we've either had enough or can see enough to realize the depth of that mechanicalness - we don't have motivation to attempt to get over it.

So what to do with a mind that's been taught that all emotions/heat should be avoided, that reacts in a blink of an eye before you are even consciously aware of it?


How are you at the new suggestions that Laura mentioned about the meditation? How long can you hold your mind quiet/still, reciting the prayer with each in-breath, whilst staying aware/awake?

How are you at body awareness?
Can you deeply feel the muscle tension in your body? The sensations of heat/cold/pressure on different parts of your skin? Your breath as it goes in and out of your lungs?
Can you hold your balance on one leg for some time?

How is your emotional awareness? Can you feel them in your body? It's location, shape, texture, temperature? How long can you sit with them in awareness?

I think practicing all of the above whilst watching for your mind skipping away from you would be very beneficial.
Can you manage 30 seconds on one exercise? 1 minute? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 30 minutes? 1 hour?
Where does your mind go to when you try to keep it's attention focused in one place?

Are you aware how much energy it takes spending all day keeping this wall intact and your core untouched?
Or that it means you don't fully connect with people - they can't see/feel you, and you can't see/feel them?

There is of course one last thing with the mind running defence like this unconsciously, everything and everyone is a threat.
Anyone or anything that triggers painful things/heat is to be skipped around by the mind. It's job, after all, is to keep you safe!
Which is another part of the wall. The wall of safety that stops things hurting you.
A mental hop, skip, jump and you are free from the pain and 'clutches of the predator chasing you'.

We want to know the luke behind that wall!

 

[lilyalic]

I thought this was pretty relevant..

Splitting as a Symptom of Internal Considering

Gurdjieff talks about "barriers".

"In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required is simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for the sooner a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for him.

"The struggle against the 'false I,' against one's chief feature or chief fault, is the most important part of the work, and it must proceed in deeds, not in words. For this purpose the teacher gives each man definite tasks which require, in order to carry them out, the conquest of his chief feature. When a man carries out these tasks he struggles with himself, works on himself. If he avoids the tasks, tries not to carry them out, it means that either he does not want to or that he cannot work.

"As a rule only very easy tasks are given at the beginning which the teacher does not even call tasks, and he does not say much about them but gives them in the form of hints. If he sees that he is understood and that the tasks are carried out he passes on to more and more difficult ones.

"More difficult tasks, although they are only subjectively difficult, are called 'barriers.' The peculiarity of barriers consists in the fact that, having surmounted a serious barrier, a man can no longer return to ordinary sleep, to ordinary life. And if, having passed the first barrier, he feels afraid of those that follow and does not go on, he stops so to speak between two barriers and is unable to move either backwards or forwards. This is the worst thing that can happen to a man. Therefore the teacher is usually very careful in the choice of tasks and barriers, in other words, he takes the risk of giving definite tasks requiring the conquest of inner barriers only to those people who have already shown themselves sufficiently strong on small barriers.

"It often happens that, having stopped before some barrier, usually the smallest and the most simple, people turn against the work, against the teacher, and against other members of the group, and accuse them of the very thing that is becoming revealed to them in themselves.

"Sometimes they repent later and blame themselves, then they again blame others, then they repent once more, and so on. But there is nothing that shows up a man better than his attitude towards the work and the teacher after he has left it. Sometimes such tests are arranged intentionally. A man is placed in such a position that he is obliged to leave and he is fully justified in having a grievance either against the teacher or against some other person. And then he is watched to see how he will behave. A decent man will behave decently even if he thinks that he has been treated unjustly or wrongly. But many people in such circumstances show a side of their nature which otherwise they would never show. And at times it is a necessary means for exposing a man's nature. So long as you are good to a man he is good to you. But what will he be like if you scratch him a little?

"But this is not the chief thing; the chief thing is his own personal attitude, his own valuation of the ideas which he receives or has received, and his keeping or losing this valuation. A man may think for a long time and quite sincerely that he wants to work and even make great efforts, and then he may throw up everything and even definitely go against the work; justify himself, invent various fabrications, deliberately ascribe a wrong meaning to what he has heard, and so on."

"What happens to them for this?" asked one of the audience.

"Nothing—what could happen to them?" said G. "They are their own punishment. And what punishment could be worse?

In the above, we hear echoes of Don Juan and his petty tyrants.

Gurdjieff adds more crucial information that we have witnessed, tested, proved:

"Speaking in general the most difficult barrier is the conquest of lying. A man lies so much and so constantly both to himself and to others that he ceases to notice it. Nevertheless lying must be conquered. And the first effort required of a man is to conquer lying in relation to the teacher. A man must either decide at once to tell him nothing but the truth, or at once give up the whole thing.

"You must realize that the teacher takes a very difficult task upon himself, the cleaning and the repair of human machines. Of course he accepts only those machines that are within his power to mend. If something essential is broken or put out of order in the machine, then he refuses to take it. But even such machines, which by their nature could still be cleaned, become quite hopeless if they begin to tell lies. A lie to the teacher, even the most insignificant, concealment of any kind such as the concealment of something another has asked to be kept secret, or of something the man himself has said to another, at once puts an end to the work of that man, especially if he has previously made any efforts.

"Here is something you must bear in mind. Every effort a man makes increases the demands made upon him. So long as a man has not made any serious efforts the demands made upon him are very small, but his efforts immediately increase the demands made upon him. And the greater the efforts that are made, the greater the new demands.

"At this stage people very often make a mistake that is constantly made. They think that the efforts they have previously made, their former merits, so to speak, give them some kind of rights or advantages, diminish the demands to be made upon them, and constitute as it were an excuse should they not work or should they afterwards do something wrong. This, of course, is most profoundly false. Nothing that a man did yesterday excuses him today. Quite the reverse, if a man did nothing yesterday, no demands are made upon him today; if he did anything yesterday, it means that he must do more today. This certainly does not mean that it is better to do nothing. Whoever does nothing receives nothing.

"As I have said already, one of the first demands is sincerity. But there are different kinds of sincerity. There is clever sincerity and there is stupid sincerity, just as there is clever insincerity and stupid insincerity. Both stupid sincerity and stupid insincerity are equally mechanical. But if a man wishes to learn to be cleverly sincere, he must be sincere first of all with his teacher and with people who are senior to him in the work. This will be 'clever sincerity.' But here it is necessary to note that sincerity must not become 'lack of considering.' Lack of considering in relation to the teacher or in relation to those whom the teacher has appointed, as I have said already, destroys all possibility of any work. If he wishes to learn to be cleverly insincere he must be insincere about the work and he must learn to be silent when he ought to be silent with people outside it, who can neither understand nor appreciate it. But sincerity in the group is an absolute demand, because, if a man continues to lie in the group in the same way as he lies to himself and to others in life, he will never learn to distinguish the truth from a lie.

"The second barrier is very often the conquest of fear. A man usually has many unnecessary, imaginary fears. Lies and fears—this is the atmosphere in which an ordinary man lives. Just as the conquest of lying is individual, so also is the conquest of fear. Every man has fears of his own which are peculiar to him alone. These fears must first be found and then destroyed. The fears of which I speak are usually connected with the lies among which a man lives. You must realize that they have nothing in common with the fear of spiders or of mice or of a dark room, or with unaccountable nervous fears.

"The struggle against lying in oneself and the struggle against fears is the first positive work which a man begins to do.

"One must realize in general that positive efforts and even sacrifices in the work do not justify or excuse mistakes which may follow. On the contrary, things that could be forgiven in a man who has made no efforts and who has sacrificed nothing will not be forgiven in another who has already made great sacrifices.

"This seems to be unjust, but one must understand the law. There is, as it were, a separate account kept for every man. His efforts and sacrifices are written down on one side of the book and his mistakes and misdeeds on the other side. What is written down on the positive side can never atone for what is written down on the negative side. What is recorded on the negative side can only be wiped out by the truth, that is to say, by an instant and complete confession to himself and to others and above all to the teacher. If a man sees his fault but continues to justify himself, a small offense may destroy the result of whole years of work and effort. In the work, therefore, it is often better to admit one's guilt even when one is not guilty.

So we see that dealing with one's own tendency to split, see things as either black or white, is crucial to working on the self. You can never effectively practice External Considering if you can't master your own splitting as is clear from the following passage from ISOTM which deals first with identification and internal considering which seems to me to be just another way to describe splitting:

"Identifying is the chief obstacle to self-remembering. A man who identifies with anything is unable to remember himself. In order to remember oneself it is necessary first of all not to identify. But in order to learn not to identify man must first of all not be identified with himself, must not call himself 'I' always and on all occasions. He must remember that there are two in him, that there is himself that is 'I' in him, and there is another with whom he must struggle and whom he must conquer if he wishes at any time to attain anything. So long as a man identifies or can be identified, he is the slave of everything that can happen to him. Freedom is first of all freedom from identification.

"After general forms of identification attention must be given to a particular form of identifying, namely identifying with people, which takes the form of 'considering' them.

"There are several different kinds of 'considering.'

"On the most prevalent occasions a man is identified with what others think about him, how they treat him, what attitude they show towards him. He always thinks that people do not value him enough, are not sufficiently polite and courteous. All this torments him, makes him think and suspect and lose an immense amount of energy on guesswork, on suppositions, develops in him a distrustful and hostile attitude towards people. How somebody looked at him, what somebody thought of him, what somebody said of him—all this acquires for him an immense significance.

"And he 'considers' not only separate persons but society and historically constituted conditions. Everything that displeases such a man seems to him to be unjust, illegal, wrong, and illogical. And the point of departure for his judgment is always that these things can and should be changed. 'Injustice' is one of the words in which very often considering hides itself. When a man has convinced himself that he is indignant with some injustice, then for him to stop considering would mean 'reconciling himself to injustice.'

"There are people who are able to consider not only injustice or the failure of others to value them enough but who are able to consider for example the weather. This seems ridiculous but it is a fact. People are able to consider climate, heat, cold, snow, rain; they can be irritated by the weather, be indignant and angry with it. A man can take everything in such a personal way as though everything in the world had been specially arranged in order to give him pleasure or on the contrary to cause him inconvenience or unpleasantness.

"All this and much else besides is merely a form of identification. Such considering is wholly based upon 'requirements.' A man inwardly 'requires' that everyone should see what a remarkable man he is and that they should constantly give expression to their respect, esteem, and admiration for him, for his intellect, his beauty, his cleverness, his wit, his presence of mind, his originality, and all his other qualities. Requirements in their turn are based on a completely fantastic notion about themselves such as very often occurs with people of very modest appearance. Various writers, actors, musicians, artists, and politicians, for instance, are almost without exception sick people. And what are they suffering from? First of all from an extraordinary' opinion of themselves, then from requirements, and then from considering, that is, being ready and prepared beforehand to take offense at lack of understanding and lack of appreciation.

"There is still another form of considering which can take a great deal of energy from a man. This form starts with a man beginning to think that he is not considering another person enough, that this other person is offended with him for not considering him sufficiently. And he begins to think himself that perhaps he does not think enough about this other, does not pay him enough attention, does not give way to him enough. All this is simply weakness. People are afraid of one another. But this can lead very far. I have seen many such cases. In this way a man can finally lose his balance, if at any time he had any, and begin to perform entirely senseless actions. He gets angry with himself and feels that it is stupid, and he cannot stop, whereas in such cases the whole point is precisely 'not to consider.'

"It is the same case, only perhaps worse, when a man considers that in his opinion he 'ought' to do something when as a matter of fact he ought not to do so at all. 'Ought' and 'ought not' is also a difficult subject, that is, difficult to understand when a man really 'ought' and when he 'ought not.' This can be approached only from the point of view of 'aim.' When a man has an aim he 'ought' to do only what leads towards his aim and he 'ought not' to do anything that hinders him from going towards his aim.

{That is, there is good, there is evil, and there is the specific situation that determines which is which.}

"As I have already said, people very often think that if they begin to struggle with considering within themselves it will make them 'insincere' and they are afraid of this because they think that in this event they will be losing something, losing a part of themselves. In this case the same thing takes place as in attempts to struggle against the outward expression of unpleasant emotions. The sole difference is that in one case a man struggles with the outward expression of emotions and in the other case with an inner manifestation of perhaps the same emotions.

"This fear of losing sincerity is of course self-deception, one of those formulas of lying upon which human weaknesses are based. Man cannot help identifying and considering inwardly and he cannot help expressing his unpleasant emotions, simply because he is weak. Identifying, considering, the expressing of unpleasant emotions, are manifestations of his weakness, his impotence, his inability to control himself. But not wishing to acknowledge this weakness to himself, he calls it 'sincerity' or 'honesty' and he tells himself that he does not want to struggle against sincerity, whereas in fact he is unable to struggle against his weaknesses.

"Sincerity and honesty are in reality something quite different. What a man calls 'sincerity' in this case is in reality simply being unwilling to restrain himself. And deep down inside him a man is aware of this. But he lies to himself when he says that he does not want to lose sincerity.

"So far I have spoken of internal considering. It would be possible to bring forward many more examples. But you must do this yourselves, that is, you must seek these examples in your observations of yourselves and of others.

"The opposite of internal considering and what is in part a means of fighting against it is external considering. External considering is based upon an entirely different relationship towards people than internal considering. It is adaptation towards people, to their understanding, to their requirements. By considering externally a man does that which makes life easy for other people and for himself. External considering requires a knowledge of men, an understanding of their tastes, habits, and prejudices.

At the same time external considering requires a great power over oneself, a great control over oneself. Very often a man desires sincerely to express or somehow or other show to another man what he really thinks of him or feels about him. And if he is a weak man he will of course give way to this desire and afterwards justify himself and say that he did not want to lie, did not want to pretend, he wanted to be sincere. Then he convinces himself that it was the other man's fault. He really wanted to consider him, even to give way to him, not to quarrel, and so on. But the other man did not at all want to consider him so that nothing could be done with him. It very often happens that a man begins with a blessing and ends with a curse. He begins by deciding not to consider and afterwards blames other people for not considering him. This is an example of how external considering passes into internal considering.

But if a man really remembers himself he understands that another man is a machine just as he is himself. And then he will enter into his position, he will put himself in his place, and he will be really able to understand and feel what another man thinks and feels. If he can do this his work becomes easier for him. But if he approaches a man with his own requirements nothing except new internal considering can ever be obtained from it.

"Right external considering is very important in the work. It often happens that people who understand very well the necessity of external considering in life do not understand the necessity of external considering in the work; they decide that just because they are in the work they have the right not to consider. Whereas in reality, in the work, that is, for a man's own successful work, ten times more external considering is necessary than in life, because only external considering on his part shows his valuation of the work and his understanding of the work; and success in the work is always proportional to the valuation and understanding of it. Remember that work cannot begin and cannot proceed on a level lower than that of the obyvatel,1 that is, on a level lower than ordinary life. This is a very important principle which, for some reason or other, is very easily forgotten.

 

[Turgon]

I have obligations all over the place and they are all like suns and centers of galaxies. I cant do the max for each but I can do enough!

Yeah, but you have obligations all over the place similar to the way you write all over the place as in jumping from one topic to the next, and then the next, etc. without really staying with one line of thought, or taking into consideration what's being said to you without doing it at breakneck speed and posting a flurry of responses. It seems a bit manic. I'm not saying this to be mean but that's how it comes across to me.

Have you ever tried slowing down, sitting with yourself and all the uncomfortable sensations and feelings that come with it? Gurdjieff talked about finding a permanent center of gravity within ourselves, not have our suns and galaxies (centers of gravity) spread all over the place. That's not to say that you have to obligate yourself to the forum only but that it is noticeable how easily you switch from one Luke to another, sometimes a number of times in a single post.

 

[luke wilson]

In short I appreciate to the absolute maximum everything that the universe has gifted me with and I am 100% committed to each and everyone one of this things.

Got the big 5 at home plus other books I've been collecting but not reading. [...] At any time I have a book from the list in my bag but I'd be lying if I said I read it as much as I should.

Perhaps luke it would help you if you swap some forum time with some reading time, and to start reading the psychology books as recommended by RedFox earlier in this thread. Generally, I get the impression from your posts that it's difficult for you to follow one line of thought, you tend to write without restricting yourself or without allowing yourself to read it over and ask yourself if what you've written is actually relevant to the topic, or helpful to others. Seeing that you've already read some recommended books, I wonder if when you read a book, you go through it in a 'racey' manner, preventing yourself to pick stuff up. If this is the case, then perhaps doing what 'it' doesn't like in your case, means to read more, and to do so as intently as possible. Fwiw.

Ok, I've actually been here before and I need to actually think how 4 years later I find myself in the same spot.

I had my latest interview and I got back very honest feedback(from the hiring managers). Basically they said that, I come across as someone with very little to say, that it's hard to get an idea about who I am since I keep my answers very brief(sometimes 1 word or sentence) and don't give them the flavour of my personality.... That even after 2 months of regularly talking on the phone, she(the HR lady) is of the opinion that I say very little to her in specific and don't elaborate without being pushed. My mum was with me when I took the phone call and said that she agreed, as in the portion of me that was speaking during that conversation came across exactly as the lady described it.

I got the training(technical) required to land a job! I can't manufacture things out of nowhere I need the economy to give me a job(but the economy isn't playing fair)

I am not a social zombie or recluse.

See the contradiction?

Luke, I think you have begun to use this forum to hide from the world. Reading has been suggested to you and you don't do it. Instead, you post on many threads a day, just rambling on about pretty much everything (the noise level in your posts is really high). You don't listen. Therapy has been suggested to you and you discount that idea. You don't listen. In short, you do only what you want to do and then truly wonder why you are stuck in life. Your life is a reflection of who you are - the job interview experiences you've had are a perfect mirror for you of who you are, yet you sit here and tell us that you're actually really social and good with people.

I'm not blaming you for not having a job - not in this job market - what I am pointing out is that it is very, very obvious that you have an issue with talking to people face to face, yet you struggle to stop talking here. That means there is an issue - a big one. Your life is OUT THERE - not here on this forum.

You only do what you want to do - what 'it' likes and this forum is not a place for you to while away your time instead of getting out there and doing what 'it' does NOT like. The proof is in the pudding and your posts evidence a person who really and truly thinks he's just fine the way he is and that he has an understanding of many things, thus he talks about many things. You do not see yourself as you are and you deny the truth when it is presented to you - on this forum and in real life.

If you are interested in esoteric development then you absolutely have to get your life affairs in order - that is the first step. I think it is quite apparent that the time you spend on this forum would be much better spent working on getting your life affairs in order and becoming a good householder. Only after that can you really begin to Work.

The First Initiation perfectly describes you - yet you don't see it, you think everything is cheap and you can take what you want and not listen to what doesn't suit you at any particular moment. This speaks volumes.

Clearly there is something to this that I find myself here AGAIN! AGAIN! Different people telling me the same things. Clearly there is a glaring aspect of myself that I can't see.

Anyways, following Anart's push and push to sort my life out, I posted this approximately 2 years later after an extended period in the wilderness.

I tried to sort my life out. To get a job, to get a social life, to do all those things Anart was talking about years ago as a pre-requisite to esoteric work. I worked bloody hard you know!!! But yet, again, I am manifesting the same situation. Agaaaaain! What did I do wrong? I followed instructions!!!! It wasn't easy turning life around you know, I worked really hard, the situation was truly dire... I was basically an unemployed bum with no external contact to the world and next to zero social skills, ridden with anxiety and fear plus all other nasty feelings of depression and hopelessness as manifested and reflected by my complete and utter rejection by the external world. But you know... I worked hard and grinded out a semblance of an existence outside my mother's house. It's still a work in progress but you know, I'm working hard on many fronts to get this thing up to a respectable position. And now here I am hearing people (menna) say nothing has changed!! And itellsya saying that it looks like I am too interested in the daily grind sort of affairs and not appreciating the forum!!! More worrying I may have some form of multiple personality disorder that I am unaware off.

Anart and everyone at that time was telling me to sort my life out, my external life out there in the world... I followed their instructions. I did not take anything lightly. Menna said to go get some experience before I start making pronouncements about such stuff from a theoretical point of view... what have I been doing?

I now have to deal with the bigger looming danger of extradition to the wilderness. The pattern of communication now is similar to then, this is why I reach this conclusion. This is why I also went looking at that period in time, the pattern I am witnessing here triggered this. It's not imagination before I get accused of that, I lived through it and so I know how it looked like. Now it's a matter of bracing oneself for the inevitable, the thing that you hope if you close your eyes will go away, but it doesn't. This is the time I guess of facing reality.

I find myself here again, undeniably so. For sure you can't argue against such an overwhelming piece of evidence as manifested reality. A lot of the things being said now were said before so for sure this is strong evidence.

I accept that there is something that I haven't noticed, understood, sorted that is causing a re-occurrence.

Redfox, I don't know what to say or do. I am stressed, worried and I don't feel good. Hmmm.. maybe I'll hack the system for survival's sake. Decided to make a concession. I'll start reading.

 

[RedFox]

Redfox, I don't know what to say or do. I am stressed, worried and I don't feel good. Hmmm.. maybe I'll hack the system for survival's sake. Decided to make a concession. I'll start reading.

If you are in a manic and/or stressed mode, nothing gets in. Life and learning is superficial only.
That's how the brain is wired. Stress turns off learning and reasoning and emotions (except fear and panic) - it leaves you with reaction.
I know, because I've lived like that for years.

What you felt for a moment is likely the core of this.
Understanding comes from emotion and intellect. If emotion and intellect are disconnected or imbalanced nothing of substance can be learned.

Humans and animals avoid unpleasant feelings (again, it's how the brain is wired).
Seeing ourselves clearly Feels unpleasant.
With that feeling, we learn to not be as mechanical.
If we know what to do with the feelings, and can observe our mind fleeing from them.

As Lilyalic says, you need to see that (and understand it i.e. Feel it) for yourself.
Choose to do so for your own growth, and not to please others.

So find a way to calm down. Pipe breathing/deep belly breathing.
Then practice any/all of the following, for at least 10 minutes a day.

How are you at the new suggestions that Laura mentioned about the meditation? How long can you hold your mind quiet/still, reciting the prayer with each in-breath, whilst staying aware/awake?

How are you at body awareness?
Can you deeply feel the muscle tension in your body? The sensations of heat/cold/pressure on different parts of your skin? Your breath as it goes in and out of your lungs?
Can you hold your balance on one leg for some time?

How is your emotional awareness? Can you feel them in your body? It's location, shape, texture, temperature? How long can you sit with them in awareness?

I think practicing all of the above whilst watching for your mind skipping away from you would be very beneficial.
Can you manage 30 seconds on one exercise? 1 minute? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 30 minutes? 1 hour?
Where does your mind go to when you try to keep it's attention focused in one place?

Added to the exercises above (in which you need to watch what happens to your mind/focus - do you have control or does it flee at the first hint of 'something it doesn't like'?) you could add cold showers as an experiment.
They are a perfect example - you have the knowledge they are beneficial, but what happens when you consider them? What does your mind do? What do you 'tell yourself'?
Can you reach the point of stepping into one?

In short, can you observe yourself whilst trying or thinking about these things?
It's not about answering the question for me, it's about answering the question for yourself.

If the feelings are too much, there is a thread I wrote on how to make friends with them.
How to invite them to tea and listen (feel) what they have to say.

 

[Menna]

If you need to know, I'm still a virgin.

I didn't need to know and I don't care if your a virgin or not and most people don't care either you care this is why you brought it up and continue to talk about it.

Anyways, I dipped my toes into that pool of sexual interaction and back out again mainly because I didn't like what it was doing to me.

You dipped your toes in the pool and then ran away because you have never swam before. You are a sensitive person in a good way because this gives you a tool to be able to do the work but the fear creates emotions in you that take such a strong hold and then your brain takes over intellectualizing as to why this or why i didnt do that and so on. I am not saying to have sex or not to have sex...sex is not the point here the point is to see the truth as to why you are not sit with it come to terms with it and learn through self knowledge and the books here on how to for a lack of a better word manage it or work with it in life.

Humans and animals avoid unpleasant feelings (again, it's how the brain is wired).
Seeing ourselves clearly Feels unpleasant.
With that feeling, we learn to not be as mechanical.
If we know what to do with the feelings, and can observe our mind fleeing from them.

As Lilyalic says, you need to see that (and understand it i.e. Feel it) for yourself.
Choose to do so for your own growth, and not to please others.

yes...

I don't see what it is I am wrong in how I am. I have identified the areas if improvement required from all the feedback: Zero porn, reading books regularly, cut sugar addiction. Regarding other things discussed in the work, working towards being a good obybatel, performing daily duties, reading news, overcoming social anxiety/fear, being responsive to other people, not reacting blindly to emotion, networking etc etc I'm already dealing with so all in all, I don't think I'm a train veering out of control about to collide into a cliff wall. Maybe you can see stuff I can't but anyways, that's how things look like from my position

Clearly there is something to this that I find myself here AGAIN! AGAIN! Different people telling me the same things. Clearly there is a glaring aspect of myself that I can't see.

Can you see how in response to me you wrote one thing and then there was a realization a few posts down about the same thing I was trying to point out?

Between the experience and the knowledge if you have enough of both the last piece in my opinion is sincerity and honesty with the self without buffer or justification but your machine has to be capable of this. There has to be awareness that change is needed and then desire/inner momentum towards the change using the right tools. You now have the awareness there needs to be change and on this forum you have access to the tools. The desire/inner momentum to constantly move towards change will be revealed in time...

 

[Oxajil]

It wasn't easy turning life around you know, I worked really hard, the situation was truly dire... I was basically an unemployed bum with no external contact to the world and next to zero social skills, ridden with anxiety and fear plus all other nasty feelings of depression and hopelessness as manifested and reflected by my complete and utter rejection by the external world. But you know... I worked hard and grinded out a semblance of an existence outside my mother's house. It's still a work in progress but you know, I'm working hard on many fronts to get this thing up to a respectable position.

Yes, and you may definitely say you've made some progress in those areas! I hope you understand luke, that if people note something that you can work on and grow from, it is not to make you think that everything you've done has no meaning, or that you haven't worked hard, or that you're completely stuck in your development. (That would be kinda black-white all-or-nothing thinking, and it isn't true!) We're all here to learn, and by giving each other feedback, we help one another in seeing certain types of behavior in ourselves that we would otherwise totally miss ourselves. This is why reading the recommended material here is important, because then the importance of a network becomes even more clear, and you gain information on how the mind works, very crucial knowledge.

I think it's already a step in the right direction by noticing that several members in this thread have made similar observations about your posts. My apologies if my post was harsh! I wrote it in the hope it might help you. Reading helps with 'stilling' the mind and helps with focusing, and meditation as well (in addition to other suggestions above). So perhaps taking some more time for yourself, catching up on reading, while reviewing what has been said to you so far will be helpful.

 

[lainey]

Luke, before you get yourself in a fluster about coming full circle try to relax and sit with it a while. This is your chance to break the cycle. Why not take some time to do the reading and meditation exercises suggested to you and post in a new thread/the eiriu eolas thread about your experiences. Take your time. We are here to help.

 

[luke wilson]

I was pondering away and a thought came to me regarding this

There is of course one last thing with the mind running defence like this unconsciously, everything and everyone is a threat.

If this world is under occupation. If danger lurks underneath every rock. If the situation is so bad as to be unfathomable. If the Cs said that one should always expect attack. How can you be anything other than, well, primed and ready for battle? Braced for impact, ready to roll out at any second.

A soldier is armoured in the field. Life on Earth is the field.

If I was to live these words, live this horror, how can I be anything other than this?

For sure, the downside as elaborated is that nothing gets through, you can't connect to or be connected with. So how can you be ready at any moment but also live like you are on a danger-less paradise (life on earth) so that you can gain from the fruits of vulnerability and basically shields 'down' as opposed to 'up' way of living?

So how to reconcile this?

 

[3DStudent]

I was pondering away and a thought came to me regarding this

There is of course one last thing with the mind running defence like this unconsciously, everything and everyone is a threat.

If this world is under occupation. If danger lurks underneath every rock. If the situation is so bad as to be unfathomable. If the Cs said that one should always expect attack. How can you be anything other than, well, primed and ready for battle? Braced for impact, ready to roll out at any second.

A soldier is armoured in the field. Life on Earth is the field.

If I was to live these words, live this horror, how can I be anything other than this?

For sure, the downside as elaborated is that nothing gets through, you can't connect to or be connected with. So how can you be ready at any moment but also live like you are on a danger-less paradise (life on earth) so that you can gain from the fruits of vulnerability and basically shields 'down' as opposed to 'up' way of living?

So how to reconcile this?

I think that that fear is more of a vigilance or awareness that comes from an understanding and objective view of reality. And less so of a fear that you may be creating for yourself. There's a quote that goes something like, "A warrior is afraid too, but he knows how to deal with his fear." So it's kind of like a healthy way of looking at that fear. FWIW.