Gold
- Thread starter go2
- Start date
Re: Gold Or Cigarettes?
Yeah, it's one of those things where their is actually a law outlawing it, but at the moment I don't think their is any enforcement of it. It's one of those "when the police states officially becomes open, they will start enforcing it" probabilities IMO.
manitoban said:
Yeah, it's one of those things where their is actually a law outlawing it, but at the moment I don't think their is any enforcement of it. It's one of those "when the police states officially becomes open, they will start enforcing it" probabilities IMO.
Guardian said:
There are NO legal restrictions on owning, possessing, buying or selling physical gold in any amount in the United States since l974. The misconceptions concerning gold are testament to the efficiency of the US government's and the Federal Reserve Bank's "gold is a barbarous relic" war on gold disinformation campaign. Paper gold is another front in the war against humanity. The paper gold convinces the gullible they have a valuable asset, as good as gold, but it is merely another promise to pay. Paper gold is used to suppress the dollar price of gold by infinite naked short selling of gold. This has worked for ten years or more to keep the dollar from collapsing. This game is up as physical gold in large amounts is trading for a higher price than the official paper price and physical gold is rapidly going into hiding to await the end of the dollar hegemony. We are able to buy physical gold at a bargain price, as this is the empire's cost of maintaining the flow of oil and goods towards the West. The day oil bids for gold all paper currencies burn.
The value function of gold depends on gold not being rare and gold not being consumed by industrial process. This assures that the above ground supply of gold only increases by 2 per cent per year. This inflexible supply is the basis of gold's value holding and measuring function. Valuable functions indeed. Some "power possessing beings" settle their affairs in gold bullion. They have all they need and wish wide distribution of the remaining fraction of gold bullion in private hands. This gives their holdings legitimacy. The turbulence in the world of politics and markets is the final phase of the US dollar's reserve function. The dollar price of gold will increase to infinity as hyperinflation destroys the value of the dollar and lives of those whose savings and pensions are in dollars. Anyway, this is my rapidly depreciating two cents worth.
I couldn't find the provision that states it's illegal to own gold.Guardian said:
I did find something which said that in a state of emergency the government could seize property that was used to facilitate terrorism.
Gold could easily fall under that classification at some point, but as of now I'm not finding anything that says it's currently illegal to own gold (bullion or otherwise).
I can think of at least 5 bullion dealers located in the U.S. that sell government minted gold coins to the general public.
If it's illegal, then the U.S. government is minting gold coins and illegally shipping them to bullion dealers, who then sell them to the public.
Hi Guardian,
I certainly appreciate your concern over the Anti-Money Laundering provisions as they apply to precious metals in the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act requires that precious metals dealers must comply with the AML laws, however it does not make it illegal to buy, sell, possess, or stockpile gold bullion as you are implying. It is true that under martial law the US Government can confiscate gold bullion if they have reason to believe you own gold, however they can also confiscate guns, land, cars, bank accounts, and even your children under martial law and by way of deception without martial law, as they do now.
I have reason to believe that the US government will never confiscate precious metals as they did in 1934. First of all only a small percentage of Americans own the world's preferred value storing asset. It would not be worth the US government's trouble to attempt to force the few owners of gold bullion to disgorge their gold. People who own physical gold usually distrust governments and banks and many are unlikely to voluntarily comply with such an order. Secondly, under conditions of economic collapse it is likely that the government authorities will offer to buy gold with new fiat legal tender at the world price as they will need gold to purchase oil and finance war. It is much easier to finance government activities with a printing press than to force Americans to surrender gold bullion. Americans will use a new internal fiat money, but the oil producers, China, and Germany will likely demand that the US settle all accounts in gold. Who would trust a new improved dollar? The Bank For International Settlements will likely be the world clearing house for gold settlement of world trade after a period of crisis, lasting perhaps a few years.
There is much hysteria and ignorance about gold ownership in America. There is a deliberate disinformation campaign to discourage Americans from protecting themselves from the devaluation of dollar denominated assets. There is fifteen thousand tons of gold in private hands in India. Europe has a long history with gold as a store of value in times of war and collapse. The oil producers own tens of thousands of tons of gold. The European Central Banks own thirteen thousand tons of gold. These are the "giants" who will call the shots in the future with regard to gold. Gold will be the last asset standing in the coming collapse of the fiat money system. Sure, a new fiat system will be instituted after a period of instability, but it is likely that gold will become the new value saving vehicle free of government intervention as governments will be desperate to obtain gold to buy oil and access. The governments will tax the incomes denominated in a new fiat money, but they will likely leave gold alone as they will have no choice.
http://www.dhfco.com/uploads/Patriot%20Act%20Info%20Sheet.pdf
I certainly appreciate your concern over the Anti-Money Laundering provisions as they apply to precious metals in the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act requires that precious metals dealers must comply with the AML laws, however it does not make it illegal to buy, sell, possess, or stockpile gold bullion as you are implying. It is true that under martial law the US Government can confiscate gold bullion if they have reason to believe you own gold, however they can also confiscate guns, land, cars, bank accounts, and even your children under martial law and by way of deception without martial law, as they do now.
I have reason to believe that the US government will never confiscate precious metals as they did in 1934. First of all only a small percentage of Americans own the world's preferred value storing asset. It would not be worth the US government's trouble to attempt to force the few owners of gold bullion to disgorge their gold. People who own physical gold usually distrust governments and banks and many are unlikely to voluntarily comply with such an order. Secondly, under conditions of economic collapse it is likely that the government authorities will offer to buy gold with new fiat legal tender at the world price as they will need gold to purchase oil and finance war. It is much easier to finance government activities with a printing press than to force Americans to surrender gold bullion. Americans will use a new internal fiat money, but the oil producers, China, and Germany will likely demand that the US settle all accounts in gold. Who would trust a new improved dollar? The Bank For International Settlements will likely be the world clearing house for gold settlement of world trade after a period of crisis, lasting perhaps a few years.
There is much hysteria and ignorance about gold ownership in America. There is a deliberate disinformation campaign to discourage Americans from protecting themselves from the devaluation of dollar denominated assets. There is fifteen thousand tons of gold in private hands in India. Europe has a long history with gold as a store of value in times of war and collapse. The oil producers own tens of thousands of tons of gold. The European Central Banks own thirteen thousand tons of gold. These are the "giants" who will call the shots in the future with regard to gold. Gold will be the last asset standing in the coming collapse of the fiat money system. Sure, a new fiat system will be instituted after a period of instability, but it is likely that gold will become the new value saving vehicle free of government intervention as governments will be desperate to obtain gold to buy oil and access. The governments will tax the incomes denominated in a new fiat money, but they will likely leave gold alone as they will have no choice.
http://www.dhfco.com/uploads/Patriot%20Act%20Info%20Sheet.pdf
Guardian
The Cosmic Force
BK said:
Actually it's illegal to stockpile or "hoard" ANYTHING in a National state of emergency. I believe gold coins and bullion are specifically defined on page 17
Not any more. They stopped production the year of the Patriot Act. Dealers can sell what they currently have BUT they have to be registered, and keep a list of who buys from them.
Guardian said:
Update:
Guardian's original response to a poster saying that it would do no harm to hold some gold if they could afford it was the following:
Guardian:
Except that it is illegal to actually physically stockpile gold in the US. You can "invest" in gold, on paper...but that raises another set of issues.
Later on Guardian claims:
I never said it(Patriot Act) made owning gold illegal,
In order to stockpile gold, which was claimed to be illegal, one would first have to purchase it and own it, so claiming it only meant stockpiling and not purchase and ownership of it is very disingenuous.
Guardian also asserted that a person could invest in paper forms of gold, further attempting to create the impression that paper forms of gold were allowed but physical ownership was not.
When did Obama declare a state of emergency?
Your original statement claimed that it is currently illegal to buy and hold gold.
"Except that it is illegal to actually physically stockpile gold in the US."
Your original claim is false, as it is not illegal.
It could become illegal in the future but is not illegal at this time.
Americans can also currently buy gold bullion coins produced in other countries such as Austria and Canada.
Update:
Due to Guardian's double talk on this issue, now denying that they wrote it was illegal to own gold, I would urge extreme caution in believing anything they say regarding the legal status of gold ownership in the U.S.
No, they did not stop production the year of the Patriot Act, which was in Oct, 2001.
The U.S. Mint was producing and selling gold coins in 2008.
According to the official U.S. Mint website, production was suspended in 2009 due to high demand which sold out their inventory
The 24K Gold Buffalo coin was authorized for production in Dec, 2005(Public Law 109-145).
If dealers can sell what they have, then it's not illegal to buy physical gold.
Nor is it illegal to buy gold in the form of bars or wafers.
The U.S. Mint itself still sells 24K gold coins.
Verbatim from their site, it states:
American Buffalo 24K Gold Coins
American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Proof Coins are collector versions of the official United States Mint American Buffalo Gold Bullion Coins. Each coin contains one ounce of .9999 fine, 24-karat gold and is presented in an elegant hardwood box with a matte finish and a faux leather inset, and is accompanied by a certificate of authenticity signed by the Director of the United States Mint.
On sale June 3, 2010 @ 12:00 noon (ET)!
Also directly from their official site:
Note: The United States Mint is working diligently with current and potential blank suppliers to increase the supply of bullion coin blanks, so it can offer to the public the proof and uncirculated versions of American Eagle silver, gold, and platinum coins in 2010. Please visit our Schedule of Products Listing to keep abreast of product on sale dates.
Per Guardian the U.S. Mint stopped production of gold coins in 2001, which is blatantly false.
Hi Guardian,
You seem determined to be right, when you are wrong. It is not so hard to admit you are wrong. What is your interest in gold? Do you have a "sacred cow" in your perception of the way finance and law work? Have you studied this arcane subject from too narrow a perspective or agenda that you can't see you are wrong? Why persist in an assertion which is demonstrably false? What's going on, Guardian?
Edit: punctuation
You seem determined to be right, when you are wrong. It is not so hard to admit you are wrong. What is your interest in gold? Do you have a "sacred cow" in your perception of the way finance and law work? Have you studied this arcane subject from too narrow a perspective or agenda that you can't see you are wrong? Why persist in an assertion which is demonstrably false? What's going on, Guardian?
Edit: punctuation
Guardian
The Cosmic Force
BK said:
He continued Bush's declaration ...and I practically cried.
_http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Notice-of-continuation-from-the-president-regarding-the-emergency-declared-with-respect-to-the-September-11-2001-terrorist-attacks/
Consistent with section 202(d) of the National Emergencies Act, 50 U.S.C. 1622(d), I am continuing for 1 year the national emergency declared on September 14, 2001, in Proclamation 7463, with respect to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, and the continuing and immediate threat of further attacks on the United States.
Because the terrorist threat continues, the national emergency declared on September 14, 2001, and the powers and authorities adopted to deal with that emergency, must continue in effect beyond September 14, 2009. Therefore, I am continuing in effect for an additional year the national emergency the former President declared on September 14, 2001, with respect to the terrorist threat.
This notice shall be published in the Federal Register and transmitted to the Congress.
BARACK OBAMA
Well, I'm certainly not a lawyer or a judge, but I do play Bridge with a few of them...and as I understand it, in a declared state of National Emergency, "anti-hoarding" laws and various interstate compacts immediately kick in which make stockpiling lots of stuff...including "precious minerals" illegal.
vinny
The Living Force
Guardian said:
yup. Personal 'stockpiles' of gold were made illegal during the great depression. Absolutely no reason why they won't pull that one again if they want to. And here we are, in a state of continuing emergency since 9/11, showing no signs of stopping. They can do whatever they want, basically. Nothing is 'too much trouble' if it furthers their agenda of complete control.
But even so, for the time being, gold does seem like a useful place to put your money, as the global currencies continue their spiral into out-of-control inflation, even if we can't know exactly what measures will be brought in further down the line - since I started watching gold prices a few years ago, the price has nearly quadrupled.
Guardian
The Cosmic Force
Nomad said:
The sad fact is that most people don't realize that US citizens are CURRENTLY living in a Constitutional Dictatorship. It's not "coming" it's here ...we're in it! Gold is just one of MANY regulated commodities that are legally effected by a presidential declaration of a "National Emergency" which supersedes ALL Public laws.
Obama could have restored our rights by doing NOTHING. A National Emergency order must be renewed yearly. Instead, he betrayed every single citizen who voted for him....and those of us who actually worked and campaigned for the man are feeling extra stupid. :(
