Gurdjieff and Ouspensky

[edgitarra]

What is discouraging about this is realizing that, with all our work and efforts to lay things out with evidence, experimentation, validation, etc, there are still those who live like weathervanes, susceptible to the verbiage of pathology.

Laura, I think that this happens because the majority of the users might not have group meetings(I know there are some groups and meetings from the forum, but not all of the users have this chance). I don't know why but sometimes the virtual/online networking only fills the jobs of the intellectual center. With real meetings, there are more implications, and the experience is more intense.

 

[Laura]

What is discouraging about this is realizing that, with all our work and efforts to lay things out with evidence, experimentation, validation, etc, there are still those who live like weathervanes, susceptible to the verbiage of pathology.

Laura, I think that this happens because the majority of the users might not have group meetings(I know there are some groups and meetings from the forum, but not all of the users have this chance). I don't know why but sometimes the virtual/online networking only fills the jobs of the intellectual center. With real meetings, there are more implications, and the experience is more intense.

We organize and suprvise (lightly) meetings for FOTCM members. That is because FOTCM is a committment and allows us to know the real names, locations, situations of the members so that we can better assist them with their needs (as far as we are able), and definitely helps us to weed out whackoes. It's not perfect, but we have a better chance when the person is known to us.

FOTCM members have the opportunity to come here and spend time with all of us in groups, and also to be connected up with others in their region (if any). In some cases, skype meetings are organized.

Anybody can join if they are ready to make a SMALL commitment: to trust us to know who they are and to try to help in whatever way we can. Not EVERYone works out in FOTCM because, with closer affiliation comes a few more responsibilities; it's like the next step. But I think I can say that 99% of the members are glad they joined and are having an interesting time in many respects. And thanks to their bodacious support, we have been able to purchase properties for our many projects and meetings. As time goes on, we hope to expand dramatically in that area. As each person reveals their talents, what they do well, what inspires them, we try to find projects for them and those projects can turn into mutually beneficial situations.

 

[edgitarra]

What is discouraging about this is realizing that, with all our work and efforts to lay things out with evidence, experimentation, validation, etc, there are still those who live like weathervanes, susceptible to the verbiage of pathology.

Laura, I think that this happens because the majority of the users might not have group meetings(I know there are some groups and meetings from the forum, but not all of the users have this chance). I don't know why but sometimes the virtual/online networking only fills the jobs of the intellectual center. With real meetings, there are more implications, and the experience is more intense.

We organize and suprvise (lightly) meetings for FOTCM members. That is because FOTCM is a committment and allows us to know the real names, locations, situations of the members so that we can better assist them with their needs (as far as we are able), and definitely helps us to weed out whackoes. It's not perfect, but we have a better chance when the person is known to us.

FOTCM members have the opportunity to come here and spend time with all of us in groups, and also to be connected up with others in their region (if any). In some cases, skype meetings are organized.

Anybody can join if they are ready to make a SMALL commitment: to trust us to know who they are and to try to help in whatever way we can. Not EVERYone works out in FOTCM because, with closer affiliation comes a few more responsibilities; it's like the next step. But I think I can say that 99% of the members are glad they joined and are having an interesting time in many respects. And thanks to their bodacious support, we have been able to purchase properties for our many projects and meetings. As time goes on, we hope to expand dramatically in that area. As each person reveals their talents, what they do well, what inspires them, we try to find projects for them and those projects can turn into mutually beneficial situations.

Thank you. To get a bit personal about this, I would say that I would really like to meet a group. For me, face2face experiences are most useful for learning and working. But, yes, I didn't do much of value to really have a chance to be trusted here yet. I know that there could be many ways in which I can be of help, but I am getting stuck in choosing what to do.

 

[Menna]

Here is one perspective


People are scared (natural to be) don't really want to see, to use this information, read the books about codependency, narcissism, information in cognative psychology and be sincere with themselves because they are scared what they might find (out of their comfort zone). To me this forum serves more of a research and perspective/advice source. Why do people come to this place and say there isnt enough of this or I think this should be that way? First off all this stuff is FREE to you (sacrifice of time and energy of others) and if your not really TRYING the information here and relating it to your own life being able to see where your programs have come from (dad, mom, friends, grand parents) and putting in real work to manage them then you dont know enough to be negative about the information. Its like walking past a resturant and saying "it got great reviews but the food looks like its not good enough" because you don't have enough money to eat there. The negative comment is not really about the restaurant at all its about the person not having something to experience the restaurant so they are negative about it to protect themselves from being exposed. What is negative in you that makes you negatively comment about information you don't know about? Meeting in person is great as I do this however I was a member for about four years before I met anyone involved here and was convinced through being able to see the errors in my ways and then applying the information to myself and life that this stuff is real its alive its part of life. Its not anyones else's job to fill the emotional center its up to the individuals to experience life look at their own situations see where they have made mistakes and use the relevant information on the forum and elsewhere but of course this can be heartbreaking, draining, and shocking so people just skate around their issues, doubt the information here and say that I need to meet in person to believe the information.

Different forums and social media platforms are places where I see one sided perspectives used to describe a multiple level situation alot of black and white thinking and superiority complexes. People like to read information and because they havent experiences the information through real life trial and error it is safer and more comfortable for them to doubt it so they convince themselves that they are fine or the information wont help. Can we say "buffer". If you don't believe the information then go...but 15 years later when one get divorced from a narcissist or used by a psychopath and then the information really rings true in your heart because your being was part of a heart breaking situation and now believes the information I will say welcome.

My post might seem harsh or might seem that I am mad but when looking at the bigger picture there are people on different learning curves different levels and if one isnt ready for the information or doesn't have it in them to use information then fine carry on but to project ones uneducated negativity lower level thinking and then to be closed off to suggestions and information is like using a rowing boat with one row everyone involved will be going in circles. Again many paths can lead to one so if one isnt ready for information now then carry on but lets not negatively comment on what we haven't experienced

and edgitarra I am not attacking you. It just so happens that your post is next to mine

 

[edgitarra]

:) funny ending of your post though. But in the end its all about choices and some people get to a turning point. And they just stop and enter a profound sleep.

 

[happyliza]

What is discouraging about this is realizing that, with all our work and efforts to lay things out with evidence, experimentation, validation, etc, there are still those who live like weathervanes, susceptible to the verbiage of pathology.

Laura, I think that this happens because the majority of the users might not have group meetings(I know there are some groups and meetings from the forum, but not all of the users have this chance). I don't know why but sometimes the virtual/online networking only fills the jobs of the intellectual center. With real meetings, there are more implications, and the experience is more intense.

Edgitarra I agree with you what you say. Especially the more frequent use of the intellectual centre as the majority of my time is spent keeping up to date on the forum, contributing where I can to threads, and reading important articles on Sott. I certainly think it is paramount to benefit from the more intense experiences and mirrors etc you get from real FOTCM group meetings and I genuinely miss that being quite isolated over here. However recently my reading/work study has slipped as with all the worldly events escalating I felt it more important to be on top of these and contribute in the propaganda war for our souls. Incredibly this has benefited me from reading so many other contributors comments on FB and Twitter that I feel a huge leap in my learning accordingly.

Also there is much for me still to do anyway in the interim on the learning front so if the opportunity ever arises that I have the chance to be in a group environment so much the better. In the meantime the group C's sessions recently have been very topical and poignant reminders on where are focus should be. There is a lifetime's work of valuable information on our forum and if we truly are honest with ourselves we can ask for mirrors and truthful feedback from our wiser friends here on our Forum. But to really benefit from really helpful feedback it is essential that firstly we are prepared to be brutally honest with ourselves, be totally objective in how we frame our requests in order to receive the right help. After all recognizing that we continually lie to ourselves, delude and use buffers and much more is what we have to strip bare as far as we are able prior to posting. So for those of us that cannot share in meetings there are still plenty of hugely helpful methods here that we can, and should, be using in order to grow our Being. I know that I have 'issues' that still need to be shared and dealt with that I am currently working on which I can, and will, post about in the near future. Though at the moment I feel they are insignificant in light of what is currently going on 'out there'. IMHO.

 

[Menna]

That doesn't make sense if one enters into a sleep and stays there they they have not awaken to the work then at the end of the day it's not about objective choice if one is asleep choosing then at the end of the day it's about their machine running them "buffers"...if one has progressed in the work then there are forces and momentum at play if you have seen the wrong that you have done to yourself or others and care to not do it again one would continue and change sure you can slip and enter times of no progress but you will not allow yourself to go back to O I don't think you can...I am talking about not knowing the work and negatively commenting on it there is no turning point there is no point it's just people being lazy and selfish and projecting

 

[Altair]

That doesn't make sense if one enters into a sleep and stays there they they have not awaken to the work then at the end of the day it's not about objective choice if one is asleep choosing then at the end of the day it's about their machine running them "buffers"...if one has progressed in the work then there are forces and momentum at play if you have seen the wrong that you have done to yourself or others and care to not do it again one would continue and change sure you can slip and enter times of no progress but you will not allow yourself to go back to O I don't think you can...I am talking about not knowing the work and negatively commenting on it there is no turning point there is no point it's just people being lazy and selfish and projecting

Hi Menna, could you put your thoughts in sentences and use punctuation, please? It's really hard to read your posts. :)

 

[Menna]

Yes, when posting from phone tougher to see entire post all at once but will take the extra time to do so.

 

[RflctnOfU]

What is discouraging about this is realizing that, with all our work and efforts to lay things out with evidence, experimentation, validation, etc, there are still those who live like weathervanes, susceptible to the verbiage of pathology.

Laura, I think that this happens because the majority of the users might not have group meetings(I know there are some groups and meetings from the forum, but not all of the users have this chance). I don't know why but sometimes the virtual/online networking only fills the jobs of the intellectual center. With real meetings, there are more implications, and the experience is more intense.

We organize and suprvise (lightly) meetings for FOTCM members. That is because FOTCM is a committment and allows us to know the real names, locations, situations of the members so that we can better assist them with their needs (as far as we are able), and definitely helps us to weed out whackoes. It's not perfect, but we have a better chance when the person is known to us.

FOTCM members have the opportunity to come here and spend time with all of us in groups, and also to be connected up with others in their region (if any). In some cases, skype meetings are organized.

Anybody can join if they are ready to make a SMALL commitment: to trust us to know who they are and to try to help in whatever way we can. Not EVERYone works out in FOTCM because, with closer affiliation comes a few more responsibilities; it's like the next step. But I think I can say that 99% of the members are glad they joined and are having an interesting time in many respects. And thanks to their bodacious support, we have been able to purchase properties for our many projects and meetings. As time goes on, we hope to expand dramatically in that area. As each person reveals their talents, what they do well, what inspires them, we try to find projects for them and those projects can turn into mutually beneficial situations.

Thank you. To get a bit personal about this, I would say that I would really like to meet a group. For me, face2face experiences are most useful for learning and working. But, yes, I didn't do much of value to really have a chance to be trusted here yet. I know that there could be many ways in which I can be of help, but I am getting stuck in choosing what to do.

Face2face is more useful for me as well. I was wondering if there are any Florida groups?

Kris

 

[cubbex]

What is discouraging about this is realizing that, with all our work and efforts to lay things out with evidence, experimentation, validation, etc, there are still those who live like weathervanes, susceptible to the verbiage of pathology.

Laura, I think that this happens because the majority of the users might not have group meetings(I know there are some groups and meetings from the forum, but not all of the users have this chance). I don't know why but sometimes the virtual/online networking only fills the jobs of the intellectual center. With real meetings, there are more implications, and the experience is more intense.

I agree on the intellectual side, but the emotional at the end I guess is up to you, and how you share it in the group through different ways.

But if you want to really energize the emotional center, you have EE, and that is related to the group also.

:) funny ending of your post though. But in the end its all about choices and some people get to a turning point. And they just stop and enter a profound sleep.

I know it feels kinda bad when you see this specially those close to you, or at least when you interpret as others falling asleep. But I think, that to really understand what is not to be sleeping, you gotta go through a heavy emotional turmoil and see things in yourself that makes you feel shame as another things that empower you so much! and that let you see things that for one reason or the other, you can't explain it with words. When you do this, you don't also need to be face to face, it is like you tune your mind with the others and work at the same intellectual frequency with others, because you have like a mutual understanding.

Having a meet up group doesn't mean you make things easier, some of the experience members can tell you on this subject. Actually, being part of a meet up group is not about others pulling the strings in you or lead you by the hand, so you put yourself to work. They are to come closer and work together and increase the efforts that have been already made. Is a multi angled life, indeed.

 

[edgitarra]

Hey prometeo, i think i am mostly asleep because i have a destroyed attention. With time i realized what is to be awake, but not necesarilly by intellectual means, thus i cannot have a proper theoretical definition of it. And to be honest with you i didn't feel bad when i saw people around me being asleep. It was more a feeling of strangeness and revelation, an organic feeling of a livecinema movie.

 

[rymw]

All this keeps taking me back to the July 12 session Laura had with Ceasar when he said:

'...if you really want to effect change, it can only be done through early education, and even then it is fragile and will not last'.

But 'it' lasted in Ceasar; enough to make him go down in history as one of the world's greatest leaders if nothing else. And what did the C's had to say about how 'Jesus/Julius' came to be what he was?

'...SUPREMELY PURE FAITH...' from the October 28, 1994 session.

IMHO, this gels with why the world is what it is today purely because of 'faith' be it positive, negative, reality-based or otherwise and that's why I believe people here falter because their ego comes before faith. I have witnessed the programming on Muslims in my community from a tender age and believe you me, the faith of these people is formidable. But it also seem to indicate that people can only respond well to a singularly-focused way...and the 4th way is by all comparisons, daunting....

FWIW

 

[Menna]

4th way is by all comparisons, daunting

Exactly it is hard its something that will not be learned or mastered tomorrow or next month or next year. It is a work in progress over a life time. I believe at its core when people get a glimps of the reality of the 4th way work that is when their turtle heads go back in their shell. They don't have faith in themselves because they don't know themselves or how to improve what they don't have faith in. However this is the point of the work to get to know yourself know your faults and short comings learn from them and learn how to better them. Learn how to live better here on earth.

Im not sure what people think happens at these face to face meetings. I have been to a handful and alot of times we choose a book or topic to discuss, talk about a C's session, worldly issues and or diet very similar to what happens on the forum. There is very little talk about ones own problems sure sometimes one will ask for advice but it isn't a group of sob stories saying "Whats wrong with me please help." To be honest sometimes I get more of an emotional center experiences reading someones post who has been through a situation close to mine. I feel through them through their words and I can relate and then the advice given I can also relate to my situation(s). If you read a post about someone who has been physically abused, going through a stressful divorce or sever health problems being sincere on the forum and you don't feel emotion when reading in your solar plexus area then no meet up is going to fix your blocked emotional center. There is no one at the meeting that puts their hand over your head chanting and then your emotional center is clear and working correctly. I am sorry but its true, for the most part only performing the work/EE will help. The whole I HAVE to meet in person for an emotional experience is nonsense you can still improve and go extremely far without meeting up. Plus if your emotional center is blocked the meeting won't help in the way you want it to anyway. There is no special voodoo performed at these meeting only real life people talking about real life. I enjoy meeting up very much so but if I never did it again I would feel the same about myself, the forum, the work and would continue to put in effort to improve.

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=rymw]
IMHO, this gels with why the world is what it is today purely because of 'faith' be it positive, negative, reality-based or otherwise and that's why I believe people here falter because their ego comes before faith.
[/quote]

Is it not important to consider the question "faith in what"? A lot of damage is perpetrated when collective faith in false teachings stamp out personal values which make up the ego. Like a group of people have faith that their religious books tell the truth, that they are special, the rest are heathen, and then proceed to act on the basis of such faith.

The way "faith" is understood - or rather misunderstood is perhaps a big source of problems.

[quote author=rymw]
the 4th way is by all comparisons, daunting....
[/quote]

4th Way encourages growth of knowledge through experience. Practicing its applications and verifying its value consistently does build confidence - or may be faith. Such faith is of the type which a skilled and practical worker develops over time through using the knowledge and tools associated with his particular trade.
OSIT