Vic
Jedi Council Member
RflctnOfU said:It's always darkest before dawn, as the saying goes. In terms of realization, I think this is connected with the fifth stopinder. When I am speaking of associations created by struggling with the book (meetings and life is real are included to a certain extent, but IMO, the gristle on which to chew is BTs), associations from life certainly play a part, but the important thing is to acquire new material/associations.The Strawman said:RflctnOfU said:The associations referred to are created by reading/struggling with the book. Various fragments of the truths are scattered all over the text. After enough material is collected, things start to fall into place, although slowly at first. G said "All the keys are there, but they are nowhere near the doors"The Strawman said:RflctnOfU said:The Strawman said:I don't yet have the level of knowledge of G's work being discussed here so please indulge me for a second. Reading this thread reminded me of a friend back in the eighties. She was reading one of G's books (and was a member of a G group in London) every spare moment she had. I had never heard of Gurdjieff and asked her what the book was about. She said it wasn't 'about' anything and that there was no linear journey or logic to it. One just had to read the words and changes would take place in the reader.
Thinking about that and reading these posts I come up with hidden (to the conscious mind) symbolism that is understood by the subconscious mind through linkage with the universal mind. Or some other non-conscious process of transformation?
Is this what RflctnOfU is referring to?
Or am I wide of the mark?
In a sense, yes. The 'symbolism' that transfers to the subconscious occurs as a result of the 'friction' of various associations created from struggle with the text (which includes reading it aloud).
Thanks for coming back to me, Kris. In terms of the friction of the 'various associations' you mention, are they the associations created in the individual through his/her life experiences and perceptions? If so how do the Truths, conveyed by archetypal symbols 'hidden' in Gs writings, arise from friction which must by definition be individualised? What mechanics or dynamics would be involved.
I may be barking up a non-existent tree here, but I am struggling with how the transmission of a universal truth to a person's subconscious mind can take place if it is dependent on, or results from, the friction of an individuals own associations, as the latter differ in everyone.
Kris
This is very interesting. Thanks, Kris. At the risk of being tiresome, but taking into account that the associations, as you say, are created by the reading/struggle with the book (books? or one particular book?) I wonder how the reader's own acquired associations affect the reception of the symbolic meanings/truths. Or if they affect them at all.
I don't know if I am tying myself up in knots here, or if I am on the brink of a wider understanding. It certainly feels more like the latter.
An example of a created association by struggling with the text: I am unable to pronounce aloud 'Aliamizoornakalu', so I struggle with learning to pronounce this word (practice). By doing this, I create an association, based on experienced action, so I remember when I come across this word again. This process of learning to pronounce is consciously done, all centers are engaged in this activity, so it 'sticks'.
Does this make sense?
Kris
Yes it does. Thanks. But in the larger scheme of things the sense it makes doesn't necessarily present itself as helpful.
That quote that Laura posted:
"One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.…"
It brings you to my mind. FWIW.