Gurdjieff's demystifiers

go2 said:
What do you understand of aim and immortality? Have you read Obyvatel's words above, that one can only see at one's own level?

I understand that a man who becomes a master of himself and acquires an indivisible I also acquires an immortal soul ( one that won't perish after the ceasing of functions of his organic body) and that this is the Aim of esoteric study, the final aim of the Work. Am i misunderstood ?

I also know that one can see at one's level but as one strives to see better and keeps this in mind and longs for it he will understand more, step by step ( and after great effort) and be able to Do. A good ability to Do might accomodate him with the next level. I might not be right but it's hard for me to identify the level beneath my own understanding.

How do you know what would have been better for Mr. Gurdjieff or the Work? Are your authoritative words mechanical reproduction of what you read on rickross?

psychic_spy said:
My words are not authoritative, at least i didn't mean them to sound like that. It's only an impression that i formed last week when i was reading various biographical articles on Gurdjieff. What i read on rickross didn't influence very much this impression ( i have only read the posts yesterday and didn't took them very seriously).


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Dawn said:
psychic_spy said:
Maybe if you spent less time caring about what was or was not done for our benefit, you might spend more time figuring out your self.

Learn about becoming humble. If you understood anything at all with any of these Works, you'd know that by now.

Well, that's true but what i have understood i didn't quite disclose or manage to put in words foreign to my native language. But what i know is that i need to talk and share my impressions even if they are not objective enough or beneficial enough to this forum. It's hard for me to say i care, i just bring stuff that draws my attention in order to discuss and try to not interfere to much or spoil the topic. I know i'm not a regular poster but i fear to become only a troller.


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psychic_spy said:
I understand that a man who becomes a master of himself and acquires an indivisible I also acquires an immortal soul ( one that won't perish after the ceasing of functions of his organic body) and that this is the Aim of esoteric study, the final aim of the Work. Am i misunderstood ?

I understand what you say, but do you have any proof that this is the case? Who told you that? Whay do you believe it? What is the basis of your belive? Do you have any means to check it for yourself? What kind of research have you done?
 
Gurdjieff had the 'whole banana' in that he knew, more than viscerally, that the practice of self-observation and self-remembering was the way to mastery of self, which ultimately leads to the 'whole banana' for anyone who practices it long enough and diligently enough.
 
ark said:
psychic_spy said:
I understand that a man who becomes a master of himself and acquires an indivisible I also acquires an immortal soul ( one that won't perish after the ceasing of functions of his organic body) and that this is the Aim of esoteric study, the final aim of the Work. Am i misunderstood ?

I understand what you say, but do you have any proof that this is the case? Who told you that? Whay do you believe it? What is the basis of your belive? Do you have any means to check it for yourself? What kind of research have you done?

A proof that immortality of the soul is something tangible or a proof of the ideea being written somewhere?

I found it in Chapter Six in In Search of the Miracoulous where Gurdjieff talks about the aim of the Work :

But if he becomes independent of external influences, if there appears in him something that can live by itself, this something may not die. In ordinary circumstances we die every moment. External influences change and we change with them, that is, many of our I's die. If a man develops in himself a permanent
I that can survive a change in external conditions, it can survive the death of the physical body. The whole secret is that one cannot work for a future life without working for this one. In working for life a man works for death, or rather, for immortality. Therefore work for immortality, if one may so call it, cannot be separated from general work. In attaining the one, a man attains the other. A man may strive to be simply for the sake of his own life's interests. Through this alone he may become immortal. We do not speak specially of a future life and we do not study whether it exists or not, because the laws are everywhere the same. In studying his own life as he knows it, and the lives of other men, from birth to death, a man is studying all the laws which govern life and death and immortality. If he becomes the master of his life, he may become the master of his death.

As for means to check this ideea is real i can only make some assumptions, i'm not a scientist but while reading for the first time In Search of the Miraculous i entered in a state i have never entered before and had the impression that time actually stopped while reading certain parts in this book. Like when i was concentrating on Chapter 5 about the role of the Moon feeding on the energies of the Earth, i remembered clearly that i look at my desktop clock and it was about 11:47 AM and i continued reading intensly in my peculiar state ( i had no presence of my physical body, my sight was fixed on the fragment as if it was looking through a binocular, i could hear no sounds, ceased all sensations and had a feeling of ease, of imponderability)..read, read and then my sight saw again the desktop clock and it was still 11:47 , then i exited this state and looked for many seconds at my clock , both on the computer , and on my mobile, it was the same , nothing changed for some instants but while i got rid of that state i felt the time was passing again as usual.
But while i was in that state i clearly knew that physical time stopped somehow or my perception modified to a very wide extent under the influence of reading the text. At that time i didn't know about self-remembering but now i think it was such a moment.


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psychic_spy said:
ark said:
psychic_spy said:
I understand that a man who becomes a master of himself and acquires an indivisible I also acquires an immortal soul ( one that won't perish after the ceasing of functions of his organic body) and that this is the Aim of esoteric study, the final aim of the Work. Am i misunderstood ?

I understand what you say, but do you have any proof that this is the case? Who told you that? Whay do you believe it? What is the basis of your belive? Do you have any means to check it for yourself? What kind of research have you done?

A proof that immortality of the soul is something tangible or a proof of the ideea being written somewhere?

Gurdjieff repeatedly admonished those who heard his ideas not to believe ANYTHING that they had not experienced or verified for themselves. If you just believe what he says and do not put any effort into actually experimenting and verifying or refuting what he says, you will not grow. If what he says is true, the only way to find out will be to prove it for yourself, by LIVING it. OSIT.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Gurdjieff repeatedly admonished those who heard his ideas not to believe ANYTHING that they had not experienced or verified for themselves.

Indeed. But all too many people choose, probably automatically, not to pay attention to this part. Probably because it is not so "exciting" as other parts. And excitement is what many people are looking for. It feels so "good"! I think it is much better to work on these parts that would make a real difference in our present lives. Not to seek a "reward" in some uncertain "future life".
 
Approaching Infinity said:
luke wilson said:
What was Gurdjieff's aim? I don't remember reading it in ISOTM.

Read some of Gurdjieff's own writings, like Herald of the Coming Good, Meetings, and Life is Real.

Meetings with remarkable men, Life is Real only then and the Herald of the coming good. What order do you recommend one reads these books?
 
luke wilson said:
Approaching Infinity said:
luke wilson said:
What was Gurdjieff's aim? I don't remember reading it in ISOTM.

Read some of Gurdjieff's own writings, like Herald of the Coming Good, Meetings, and Life is Real.

Meetings with remarkable men, Life is Real only then and the Herald of the coming good. What order do you recommend one reads these books?

Well, you could take Gurdjieff's advice and read them all in order of publication, but that would mean reading Beelzebub's Tales first! :evil: However, technically Herald of the Coming Good was published first, and G gives some insights into the history of his quest and his aims in that one, so it might be a good place to start. Personally, I read them in this order: Meetings, Life is Real, Beelzebub's Tales, Herald. Perhaps that has ruined all possible development for me. We will see. :cool2:
 
luke wilson said:
What was Gurdjieff's aim? I don't remember reading it in ISOTM.
I think an excellent quote that truly represents the aim of Gurdjieff's teachings is this quote (posted below) that's taken from the end of his book 'Beelzebub´s Tales To His Grandson' in the chapter 'From The Author.' IMO this quote (especially the first paragraph) really gets to the essence of what his work is about, which is aimed towards the development of 'self consciousness' (and then from that/after that, and along with the 'cleaning of the machine,' then comes the development of 'objective consciousness').

As I understand it, the growth of this self consciousness is the capacity to see oneself (more and more) as one is, without closing one's eyes to it, so that this 'seeing' of it becomes a permanent part of one's day to day, moment to moment, conscious awareness (and constant remembrance of it). That's just my take on it though.

Excerpt "From the Author":

"To possess the right to the name of "man," one must be one.

"And to be such, one must first of all, with an indefatigable persistence and an unquenchable impulse of desire, issuing from all the separate independent parts constituting one's entire common presence, that is to say, with a desire issuing simultaneously from thought, feeling, and organic instinct, work on an all-round knowledge of oneself--at the same time struggling unceasingly with one's subjective weaknesses--and then afterwards, taking one's stand upon the results thus obtained by one's consciousness alone, concerning the defects in one's established subjectivity as well as the elucidated means for the possibility of combating them, strive for their eradication without mercy towards oneself.

"Speaking frankly, and wholly without partiality, contemporary man as we know him is nothing more nor less than merely a clockwork mechanism, though of a very complex construction.

"About his mechanicality, a man must without fail think deeply from every aspect and with an entire absence of partiality and well understand it, in order fully to appreciate what significance that mechanicality and all its involved consequences and results may have both for his own further life as well as for the justification of the sense and aim of his arising and existence.

"For one who desires to study human mechanicality in general and to make it clear to himself, the very best object of study is he himself with his own mechanicality; and to study this practically and to understand it sensibly, with all one's being, and not "psychopathically," that is, with only one part of one's entire presence, is possible only as a result of correctly conducted self-observation.

"And as regards this possibility of correctly conducting self observation and conducting it without the risk of incurring the maleficent consequences which have more than once been observed from people's attempts to do this without proper knowledge, it is necessary that the warning must be given--in order to avoid the possibility of excessive zeal--that our experience, based on the vast exact information we have, has shown that this is not so simple a thing as at first glance it may appear. This is why we make the study of the mechanicality of contemporary man the groundwork of a correctly conducted self-observation.

"Before beginning to study this mechanicality and all the principles for a correctly conducted self- observation, a man in the first place must decide, once and forever, that he will be sincere with himself unconditionally, will shut his eyes to nothing, shun no results wherever they may lead him, be afraid of no inferences, and be limited by no previous, self-imposed limits; and secondly, in order that the elucidation of these principles may be properly perceived and transubstantiated in the followers of this new teaching, it is necessary to establish a corresponding form of "language," since we find the established form of language quite unsuitable for such elucidations.

"As regards the first condition, it is necessary now at the very outset to give warning that a man unaccustomed to think and act along lines corresponding to the principles of self-observation must have great courage to accept sincerely the inferences obtained and not to lose heart; and submitting to them, to continue those principles further with the crescendo of persistence, obligatorily requisite for this.

"These inferences may, as is said, "upset" all the convictions and beliefs previously deep-rooted in a man, as well as also the whole order of his ordinary mentation; and, in that event, he might be robbed, perhaps forever, of all the pleasant as is said "values dear to his heart," which have hitherto made up his calm and serene life.

"Thanks to correctly conducted self-observation, a man will from the first days clearly grasp and indubitably establish his complete powerlessness and helplessness in the face of literally everything around him.

"With the whole of his being he will be convinced that everything governs him, everything directs him. He neither governs nor directs anything at all.

"He is attracted and repelled not only by everything animate which has in itself the capacity to influence the arising of some or other association in him, but even by entirely inert and inanimate things.

"Without any self-imagination or self-calming--impulses which have become inseparable from contemporary men--he will cognize that his whole life is nothing but a blind reacting to the said attractions and repulsions.

"He will clearly see how his what are called world-outlooks, views, character, taste, and so on are molded--in short, how his individuality was formed and under what influences its details are liable to change.

"And as regards the second indispensable condition, that is, the establishment of a correct language; this is necessary because our still recently established language which has procured, so to say, "rights-of-citizenship," and in which we speak, convey our knowledge and notions to others, and write books, has, in our opinion already become such as to be now quite worthless for any more or less exact exchange of opinions.

"The words of which our contemporary language consists, convey, owing to the arbitrary thought people put into them, indefinite and relative notions, and are therefore perceived by average people "elastically."

"In obtaining just this abnormality in the life of man, a part was played in our opinion, by always that same established abnormal system of education of the rising generation.

"And it played a part because, based, as we have already said, chiefly on compelling the young to "learn by rote" as many words as possible differentiated one from the other only by the impression received from their consonance and not by the real pith of the meaning put into them, this system of education has resulted in the gradual loss in people of the capacity to ponder and reflect upon what they are talking about and upon what is being said to them".
 
luke wilson said:
What was Gurdjieff's aim? I don't remember reading it in ISOTM.

Luke, one take on the aim of Gurdjieff is mentioned in the podcast that I noted earlier in the thread. That said, you would probably benefit greatly from reading all of the recommended books on Gurdjeiff too.
 
RyanX said:
luke wilson said:
What was Gurdjieff's aim? I don't remember reading it in ISOTM.

Luke, one take on the aim of Gurdjieff is mentioned in the podcast that I noted earlier in the thread. That said, you would probably benefit greatly from reading all of the recommended books on Gurdjeiff too.

Thanks, RyanX. After kenlee's post I was thinking of that podcast. Gurdjieff actually talks about two of his aims in the material Laura quotes there.
 

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