Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

kenlee said:
T.C. said:
For me, reading the synopsis and tying it together with Raine and what I've read of Samenow so far, what stands out for me is our ability to trick others, manipulate others, and yes, to some extent or another, depending on how focused or invested they might be in us, hypnotise them to a certain degree. If through our thinking errors, we convince ourselves that something might be for the good of others (or even ourselves - "Hmm, just one doughnut isn't going to kill me" or "I've worked hard all month, I'm entitled to be grouchy and lose my temper with my friend, you know! I'm only human), then even Gurdjieff couldn't help the fact that the effect he had on others, rooted in his selfish desire to graduate or achieve man number 4 or whatever, was to hypnotise them - and he simply justified it to himself that it was okay; it was for their benefit, and the benefit of civilization as a whole... but really, to G.'s benefit.
I could be wrong here but I don't think that Gurdjieff was fully aware of the distinction between the STS and STO realities or what Illion called the two different kinds of spiritualties where the material world in which we exist is the battleground through which the two forces play through us. The impression I got from the Gurdjieff people that I met is that anything "higher" is more spiritual (in terms of higher awareness) and at that point they lose all sense of there being two kinds of spiritualties . There is only higher awareness in their view and, by definition, it is "good."

Gurdjieff could have very well cross conceptualized the non material spiritual realities with the material realities of 4th density, seeing the apex point of the STS 4th density hierarchal pyramid structure as the 'Sun Absolute' or something like that (Actually I don't know) and kind of mixed them together in such a way that everything at all levels became "material" and there was nothing beyond it. Gurdjieff was often very certain of what he knew that approached absolute certainty and, possibly, this absolute certainty of his (without group study and feedback as it is with this group) is approaching the 4th density wishful thinking reality where the very nature of reality itself becomes what is 'believed for certain'. This doesn't mean that his heart wasn't in the right place it's just that ignorance and wishful thinking could have led him astray in certain instances. One thing that has always really bothered me is that Whitley Strieber was in the Gurdjieff Foundation for about 15 years or so and I wonder if this means something and says something about where the present G groups are headed, that is in the direction of navel gazing and seeking "higher awareness" without knowledge (which makes them ignorant of the distinction between the STS/STO realities). And just like these aliens of Whitley's who they perceive to be more highly aware then, from their perspective, it must be "good" to be like them. FWIW!
As for impressions of modern "Gurdjieff people" reflecting on Gurdjieff the historical man, I think that is a slippery slope. Probably not a lot different than judging the Christ myth based on modern day run-of-the-mill Christian people. But you are so right about the pervasive idea that higher always equals better. That is like a rampant disease in quasi-spiritual circles, whether new age, traditional old age or anything in between, these days.
I also like your idea of cross-conceptualizing 2 different components of 2 different realities as the same reality. Real discernment is required in this world: the perspicacity thing. And then you get tools like Streiber who are cross-pollinated (polluting?) UFO and Gurdgjieff groups and they all get painted painted with the 'Kook brush'.

The hypnotism thing is fascinating. How does it happen? Do we do it unconsciously - both to others AND to ourselves? Is it semi-conscious? Semi-sub-conscious? Is the deal that G did it on purpose - is that the only diff? The ultimate rationalization?

"They do it without knowing. I do it knowingly. It happens one way or the other, so what the heck?"
(that is me hypothetically paraphrasing G's thought process)

OF course this ignores the STS/STO issue: that to hypnotize without permission or invitation is most likely STS in this world. I thought I read in one Gurdjieff book that he made some sort of commitment, at some point later in his life, NOT to hypnotize people any more, but I can't find it now.

Do we suggest things to ourselves that put us under our own spell? I think so!
Do we empower other people to hypnotize themselves, as well? I would say so.

It occurs to me that this is not a little problem.
 

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BHelmet said:
OF course this ignores the STS/STO issue: that to hypnotize without permission or invitation is most likely STS in this world. I thought I read in one Gurdjieff book that he made some sort of commitment, at some point later in his life, NOT to hypnotize people any more, but I can't find it now.

.
The vow is discussed in Altair's synopsis.

It all ended thus, that I decided to take an oath before my own essence, in a state of mind known to me, never again to make use of this property of mine. I must also mention that, when I took the oath not to apply in life this inherency of mine, I made a reservation that my oath should not concern the application of it for scientific purposes. For instance, I was very much interested then, and even now my interest has not entirely vanished, in increasing the visibility of distant cosmic centers many thousand times through the use of a medium, and in the cure of cancer by the power of suggestion. (L:26)
 

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T.C. said:
Divide By Zero said:
T.C. said:
Reading Samenow's so difficult for me because every other paragraph triggers painful self-remembering or flickering snapshots, lasting for seconds, or minutes, or me having to put down the book and smoke a cig. It really should be known here as, "Inside the Predator's Mind." The only argument (or buffer!) I have against the idea that, "It could have been written about me," is that the Predator gave us their mind, so it's not really me...

Pretty kundabuffer-destroying, anyway.
Agreed! However, when I think of the Predator giving us their mind, I think of survival/evolution. Survival requires fooling of the self, especially in hard conditions of the past. The brain adapted to fool itself to instill motivation and/or narration of a story in order to keep the organism going, in this case the human brain.
Yes and no. What you're saying is true - or I agree with it, anyway. But it's only one way of surviving.

Remember in the beginning of Anatomy of Violence. Raine compares two different cultures. One is murderously psychopathic, but the other one is not; instead, it is cooperative!

So we can't excuse our selfishness by saying, "It's for our own good and the good of others." It might very well be, if we base the "good" on the selfish gene theory. But that doesn't mean it's necessary.

We're not much different than the animals in the lab tested by Pavlov, etc. I still doubt the idea of an outside force doing this directly. What if 4d STS is a possible future evolution instead of the cause of what we are (which can be explained by evolution and seeing how animals do similar things)?
Reminds me of Laura's "Eclipsing of Realities" experience. I don't think it matters either way because it pretty much amounts to the same thing - past, present and future. It's still only one 'branch' of evolution. We could choose a different one.
I think that everyone can see themselves in Samenow's work on the Criminal Mind, only what we see is "there, but for the grace of God..." And we realize all too painfully that, even though we didn't go there, we still have those kinds of thinking errors, some of us more often than others. It is painful to reflect on our lives and see all the times things went South in our relationships because of such errors. And, perhaps for some, there is a terrifying realization that this is what is still going on and it isn't pretty!

What is interesting is that Samenow has exposed the "Predator's Mind" in a way that is eminently practical and clear, and the consequences of some thinking errors allowed to run without challenge, is horrifyingly evident. If you want to see THAT play out, then read Ressler's "Whoever Fights Monsters". That should give you a big dose of the "Terror of the Situation."

What is also interesting is that we have talked about all of these things for years now; I wrote about it at length in The Wave; it is discussed in many of the previously recommended books in various ways; but until you read Samenow's clear, practical, on the spot examples of what it is and how it works and where it goes, it's all still just theoretical and you can use that same Predator's mind to argue your way out of it.

Also, Samenow's examples and his system of therapy highlights the value of what we do here, The Work, The Mirror, etc. And it is a much better method we have been devising and working with over the years than what is otherwise available elsewhere. Yes, obviously, from Samenow and Raine, Fallon and Ressler, we can see that The Work is NOT for everyone. But those who can do it from the position of the obyvatel instead of from the position of the criminal, may find benefits and blessings beyond anything they imagined.
 

SummerLite

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T.C. said:
For me, reading the synopsis and tying it together with Raine and what I've read of Samenow so far, what stands out for me is our ability to trick others, manipulate others, and yes, to some extent or another, depending on how focused or invested they might be in us, hypnotise them to a certain degree. If through our thinking errors, we convince ourselves that something might be for the good of others (or even ourselves - "Hmm, just one doughnut isn't going to kill me" or "I've worked hard all month, I'm entitled to be grouchy and lose my temper with my friend, you know! I'm only human), then even Gurdjieff couldn't help the fact that the effect he had on others, rooted in his selfish desire to graduate or achieve man number 4 or whatever, was to hypnotise them - and he simply justified it to himself that it was okay; it was for their benefit, and the benefit of civilization as a whole... but really, to G.'s benefit.

Reading Samenow's so difficult for me because every other paragraph triggers painful self-remembering or flickering snapshots, lasting for seconds, or minutes, or me having to put down the book and smoke a cig. It really should be known here as, "Inside the Predator's Mind." The only argument (or buffer!) I have against the idea that, "It could have been written about me," is that the Predator gave us their mind, so it's not really me...

Pretty kundabuffer-destroying, anyway.
Thank you for the synopsis Altair, very, very interesting and thought provoking. As I continued reading this thread, the bold part above jumped out at me and once again my mind was BLOWN!!! What is at the core of this mind blowing event is the possibility that I have connected to this group and what is manifesting here, on a deeper level and series of events are transpiring in my life that are lessons in this very subject of my thinking errors and the ramifications of such. I haven't read any of these books yet, only working on Collingwood and keeping up on the various threads on these recent subjects. Some sort of osmosis going on perhaps. Connecting chakras?

There have been 3 instances where I have been intently focused on creating scenarios in my mind, the first being the most intense. I was convinced a co-worker was out to steal work from me. For days I focused on this, listing what I had observed in his behavior as clues to his self aggrandizement. Painting him in a very negative light and I was convinced I was right. As my mental drama played out, I brought in another person and explained what was going on. This person then became convinced that I was correct! I then spoke with my employer, laying out all my concerns about the co-worker and discovered none of it was true :shock:. I had created all of it in my mind and convinced someone else it was true. I found this to be amazing.

The second event was a continuation of the first as it happened with the same people. This time was different however, as I had been working on observing the content of my chatty, "monkey mind" something brought to my attention on the forum. Also, learning from the first event, I saw the mental dialogue trying to take hold and pull me in. I observed its contents as being very dark and hurtful, WANTING to be hurtful. Then I saw the Predators Mind.

The third instance was a bit different (involving other people) and I didn't realize I was participating in a similar scenario until it played out a bit. Once again I was convinced I was right and had all the facts gleaned from my reading to back it up. I was pulled into a mental drama once again with the emotional responses. I again pulled in another person whom I influenced. And then, with a few words from the subject of this analysis, I saw I had blown the situation way out of proportion and wasn't in touch with the reality of the situation which was also a relief. I thought my intentions behind all this where to help someone.

Very thankfully, none of these situations played out much further then my own mind and so no one was hurt by them. I could have done a lot of damage if they had continued on to their conclusion.

The new turn in our lessons here is mind blowing stuff! Whew!!!
 

Laura

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SummerLite, based on what you have just written, you should read Samenow as soon as you can. Thinking errors such as you describe can be, literally, the road to STS disintegration.
 
Laura said:
BHelmet said:
OF course this ignores the STS/STO issue: that to hypnotize without permission or invitation is most likely STS in this world. I thought I read in one Gurdjieff book that he made some sort of commitment, at some point later in his life, NOT to hypnotize people any more, but I can't find it now.

.
The vow is discussed in Altair's synopsis.

It all ended thus, that I decided to take an oath before my own essence, in a state of mind known to me, never again to make use of this property of mine. I must also mention that, when I took the oath not to apply in life this inherency of mine, I made a reservation that my oath should not concern the application of it for scientific purposes. For instance, I was very much interested then, and even now my interest has not entirely vanished, in increasing the visibility of distant cosmic centers many thousand times through the use of a medium, and in the cure of cancer by the power of suggestion. (L:26)
Thank you! - hm, that little reservation of Gurdjieff's at the end about scientific purposes kind of left him a door open, albeit an "STO sounding" door.
 

Altair

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kenlee said:
Gurdjieff could have very well cross conceptualized the non material spiritual realities with the material realities of 4th density, seeing the apex point of the STS 4th density hierarchal pyramid structure as the 'Sun Absolute' or something like that (Actually I don't know) and kind of mixed them together in such a way that everything at all levels became "material" and there was nothing beyond it. Gurdjieff was often very certain of what he knew that approached absolute certainty and, possibly, this absolute certainty of his (without group study and feedback as it is with this group) is approaching the 4th density wishful thinking reality where the very nature of reality itself becomes what is 'believed for certain'. This doesn't mean that his heart wasn't in the right place it's just that ignorance and wishful thinking could have led him astray in certain instances.
Yes, and it's very disheartening to realize that even Gurdjieff with his knowledge about human psychology was prone to such thinking errors on such wide scale.

kenlee said:
One thing that has always really bothered me is that Whitley Strieber was in the Gurdjieff Foundation for about 15 years or so and I wonder if this means something and says something about where the present G groups are headed, that is in the direction of navel gazing and seeking "higher awareness" without knowledge (which makes them ignorant of the distinction between the STS/STO realities). And just like these aliens of Whitley's who they perceive to be more highly aware then, from their perspective, it must be "good" to be like them. FWIW!
I agree. Here is what J. Walter Driscoll writes about G's (as quoted in Gurdjieff and Hypnosis):
“... there are poignant examples recorded of Gurdjieff’s kindness, sharing, and charity to his followers, family and the needy public (Tchekhovitch 2006:198–200) but groups institutionalized under his name are not known to engage in charity, social activism or humanitarian action.
 

SummerLite

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Laura said:
SummerLite, based on what you have just written, you should read Samenow as soon as you can. Thinking errors such as you describe can be, literally, the road to STS disintegration.
Hi Laura, thanks for your concern. I have been looking forward to starting Samenow's books. I see the events I described as lessons in sync. with whats being learned here and so of value. This type of episode (errors in thinking) isn't something common and ongoing for me so I took particular notice of these series of events to learn something of value. A great deal was brought up for me to see which include my fears and are programs running under the surface. This process of uncovering has been going on for about a year now and this latest is a part of that. I haven't been concerned that I'm disintegrating into the path of STS at all. My convictions and inner strength are strong in following just the opposite way of being. I might whine and complain often, have fuzzy thinking, weird events etc. etc. but I've a base thats solid. I'm dam well NOT going to walk down that "other" path!
 

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SummerLite said:
Laura said:
SummerLite, based on what you have just written, you should read Samenow as soon as you can. Thinking errors such as you describe can be, literally, the road to STS disintegration.
Hi Laura, thanks for your concern. I have been looking forward to starting Samenow's books. I see the events I described as lessons in sync. with whats being learned here and so of value. This type of episode (errors in thinking) isn't something common and ongoing for me so I took particular notice of these series of events to learn something of value. A great deal was brought up for me to see which include my fears and are programs running under the surface. This process of uncovering has been going on for about a year now and this latest is a part of that. I haven't been concerned that I'm disintegrating into the path of STS at all. My convictions and inner strength are strong in following just the opposite way of being. I might whine and complain often, have fuzzy thinking, weird events etc. etc. but I've a base thats solid. I'm dam well NOT going to walk down that "other" path!
You should read the books before you start deflecting an observation. You will be surprised at how common thinking errors are and even WHAT they are.
 

SummerLite

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You should read the books before you start deflecting an observation. You will be surprised at how common thinking errors are and even WHAT they are.
It will be very interesting to learn more I'm sure. From what is being said here, I gather these types of thinking errors are indeed quite common and it can be a shock to see them in oneself.

For clarity sake, when I describe something as a "mind blowing event" I mean it in a very positive sense (in this case anyway).

When I was writing the initial post about my thinking error experiences, I received a recorded message from my grandchildrens school. A shooting had occurred in a high school 35 miles away (Aztec NM) and 3 people where killed. The gunman had been apprehended but no other details where given. The call was to support kids and their parents. :scared: "IT" is now hitting close to home.

Yesterday I saw the aftermath of a severe traffic accident and today another where a deer was struck by a car. It seems like my area is in a heightened time of stress and weirdness right now like I've seen in the past. I'm edgy like others I know.

I know I've gone off topic of this fabulous topic, my apologizes. I don't want to deflect, please carry on.
 
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Hi Laura, I just wanted to thank you for your thread relating to Gurdjieff and Collingwood. For me, reading Gurdjieff had an active interaction with people and thoughts that were in correlation with his writing. I really love when a book comes alive but I think for that to happen, you need to be in the right place at the right time. I’m now looking forward to reading some RGC. Finally I just wanted to say thanks again given I attribute some of your words relating to data theory etc in a short story I have published on Amazon. I realise I should have requested your permission first but hoped you would be ok with me doing that. Kind regards, Nathan
 

mkrnhr

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Hello Holyegrail,

Seeing as this is your first post on the forum, we would appreciate it if you would post a brief intro about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us how you found this forum, how long you've been reading it and/or the SOTT page, whether or not you've read any of Laura's books yet, etc. :-)
 
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Holyegrail

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Hello Holyegrail,

Seeing as this is your first post on the forum, we would appreciate it if you would post a brief intro about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us how you found this forum, how long you've been reading it and/or the SOTT page, whether or not you've read any of Laura's books yet, etc. :-)
NP Done. Kind regards.
 
I could be wrong here but I don't think that Gurdjieff was fully aware of the distinction between the STS and STO realities or what Illion called the two different kinds of spiritualties where the material world in which we exist is the battleground through which the two forces play through us. The impression I got from the Gurdjieff people that I met is that anything "higher" is more spiritual (in terms of higher awareness) and at that point they lose all sense of there being two kinds of spiritualties . There is only higher awareness in their view and, by definition, it is "good."

Gurdjieff could have very well cross conceptualized the non material spiritual realities with the material realities of 4th density, seeing the apex point of the STS 4th density hierarchal pyramid structure as the 'Sun Absolute' or something like that (Actually I don't know) and kind of mixed them together in such a way that everything at all levels became "material" and there was nothing beyond it. Gurdjieff was often very certain of what he knew that approached absolute certainty and, possibly, this absolute certainty of his (without group study and feedback as it is with this group) is approaching the 4th density wishful thinking reality where the very nature of reality itself becomes what is 'believed for certain'. This doesn't mean that his heart wasn't in the right place it's just that ignorance and wishful thinking could have led him astray in certain instances. One thing that has always really bothered me is that Whitley Strieber was in the Gurdjieff Foundation for about 15 years or so and I wonder if this means something and says something about where the present G groups are headed, that is in the direction of navel gazing and seeking "higher awareness" without knowledge (which makes them ignorant of the distinction between the STS/STO realities). And just like these aliens of Whitley's who they perceive to be more highly aware then, from their perspective, it must be "good" to be like them. FWIW!
Following clues gains you knowledge, which is a source of Power. Must go beyond following clues to connecting dots to grow your Awareness. If your Power exceeds your Awareness at any point, you can only make progress on the evil / STS path.

I have experienced that going beyond following clues to connecting dots grows Awareness, & that the Awareness then protects like a shield (not just metaphorically, but metaphysically). I have also observed that people in this world who are making progress up the Food Pyramid flatly refuse to grow their Awareness, while continuing to try to acquire more Power (as knowledge, and/or other forms of Power).

It seems to me that G wanted to "make" the change he saw was necessary in the world, before the world had been prepared to make such a big change. Just spreading the knowledge from central Asia to "the West" was an essential step (which G ultimately did, after much suffering). Skipping steps also seems to me to be conducive to making progress on the evil path.
 

beetlemaniac

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One also recalls the anecdotes about Gurdjieff being shrewd businessman and how hypnotism could have helped him in this part of his life.

I would like to first say that I've observed myself closely for the past few years since I got to know about G's work, and it does really seem to me that I do use hypnotism in my interactions with others. It's quite subtle but it seems to be there. I guess hypnotism is the way of the world for the most part. It's probably driven by the need to survive, which is essentially what drives the Predator's Mind.

I've seen it happen in an obvious way with women, where there would be this intense sense of attraction or want for some attractive person which just festers for a while, and then followed by a sense of connection with that person upon looking at them. It literally feels like bolts being shot out of my eyes and hitting that person. The other person tends to end up visibly flustered or will become curious about me. It sounds weird and it's not (at least as far as I know) a conscious thing.

Bringing the topic back to psychopathy, one would assume that the wiles of psychopaths would be much bolstered by this ability to will others to their bidding. It's pretty discomfiting to know that, to some degree, I've been operating like this for a while, thinking that I had special powers of some sort. I'm starting to realise that there are also others in my life who do the same thing. It's a pretty base tactic, really, and not something that you'd want to allow yourself to do. So I think G was probably not very wise in keeping that opening for using hypnotism for scientific purposes, or maybe that he was not STO enough to be careful about his use of this method. I suppose it is also the attraction of power for it's sake that drives people to do these things.

Actually, now that I think about it, it's become more apparent in my interactions with others, how I consciously use this method, for example, a well placed smile with an intended effect of making the other party more agreeable, or just a stare which tends to create a certain intended response. It's creepy to realise this in myself. I hope I can change my ways.

I think a lot of this is done to avoid the real tough work of thinking for oneself, and accepting that one is wrong, or that one has not enough information to proceed with a decision. Ugh, still learning and it's not an easy path indeed. :-(
 
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