As for impressions of modern "Gurdjieff people" reflecting on Gurdjieff the historical man, I think that is a slippery slope. Probably not a lot different than judging the Christ myth based on modern day run-of-the-mill Christian people. But you are so right about the pervasive idea that higher always equals better. That is like a rampant disease in quasi-spiritual circles, whether new age, traditional old age or anything in between, these days.kenlee said:I could be wrong here but I don't think that Gurdjieff was fully aware of the distinction between the STS and STO realities or what Illion called the two different kinds of spiritualties where the material world in which we exist is the battleground through which the two forces play through us. The impression I got from the Gurdjieff people that I met is that anything "higher" is more spiritual (in terms of higher awareness) and at that point they lose all sense of there being two kinds of spiritualties . There is only higher awareness in their view and, by definition, it is "good."T.C. said:For me, reading the synopsis and tying it together with Raine and what I've read of Samenow so far, what stands out for me is our ability to trick others, manipulate others, and yes, to some extent or another, depending on how focused or invested they might be in us, hypnotise them to a certain degree. If through our thinking errors, we convince ourselves that something might be for the good of others (or even ourselves - "Hmm, just one doughnut isn't going to kill me" or "I've worked hard all month, I'm entitled to be grouchy and lose my temper with my friend, you know! I'm only human), then even Gurdjieff couldn't help the fact that the effect he had on others, rooted in his selfish desire to graduate or achieve man number 4 or whatever, was to hypnotise them - and he simply justified it to himself that it was okay; it was for their benefit, and the benefit of civilization as a whole... but really, to G.'s benefit.
Gurdjieff could have very well cross conceptualized the non material spiritual realities with the material realities of 4th density, seeing the apex point of the STS 4th density hierarchal pyramid structure as the 'Sun Absolute' or something like that (Actually I don't know) and kind of mixed them together in such a way that everything at all levels became "material" and there was nothing beyond it. Gurdjieff was often very certain of what he knew that approached absolute certainty and, possibly, this absolute certainty of his (without group study and feedback as it is with this group) is approaching the 4th density wishful thinking reality where the very nature of reality itself becomes what is 'believed for certain'. This doesn't mean that his heart wasn't in the right place it's just that ignorance and wishful thinking could have led him astray in certain instances. One thing that has always really bothered me is that Whitley Strieber was in the Gurdjieff Foundation for about 15 years or so and I wonder if this means something and says something about where the present G groups are headed, that is in the direction of navel gazing and seeking "higher awareness" without knowledge (which makes them ignorant of the distinction between the STS/STO realities). And just like these aliens of Whitley's who they perceive to be more highly aware then, from their perspective, it must be "good" to be like them. FWIW!
I also like your idea of cross-conceptualizing 2 different components of 2 different realities as the same reality. Real discernment is required in this world: the perspicacity thing. And then you get tools like Streiber who are cross-pollinated (polluting?) UFO and Gurdgjieff groups and they all get painted painted with the 'Kook brush'.
The hypnotism thing is fascinating. How does it happen? Do we do it unconsciously - both to others AND to ourselves? Is it semi-conscious? Semi-sub-conscious? Is the deal that G did it on purpose - is that the only diff? The ultimate rationalization?
"They do it without knowing. I do it knowingly. It happens one way or the other, so what the heck?"
(that is me hypothetically paraphrasing G's thought process)
OF course this ignores the STS/STO issue: that to hypnotize without permission or invitation is most likely STS in this world. I thought I read in one Gurdjieff book that he made some sort of commitment, at some point later in his life, NOT to hypnotize people any more, but I can't find it now.
Do we suggest things to ourselves that put us under our own spell? I think so!
Do we empower other people to hypnotize themselves, as well? I would say so.
It occurs to me that this is not a little problem.