Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

T.C.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
One also recalls the anecdotes about Gurdjieff being shrewd businessman and how hypnotism could have helped him in this part of his life.

I would like to first say that I've observed myself closely for the past few years since I got to know about G's work, and it does really seem to me that I do use hypnotism in my interactions with others.
I think if we define hypnotism as something that we do that affects the belief system of others, then most of what we do when we're interacting with people on a regular basis is designed to do that.

Then there would obviously be different degrees of it. There would be the kind that is totally unconscious on our part, because we weren't consciously intending to produce any such result in the other person. Then there would be the type where we really are intending to produce some kind of result, but without using scientific methods that we had studied and learned and practiced - we're just simply engaged towards a goal with the person. And then there would be people who have actually studied hypnotism and consciously use it to produce intended results in others.

It's quite subtle but it seems to be there. I guess hypnotism is the way of the world for the most part. It's probably driven by the need to survive, which is essentially what drives the Predator's Mind.
Yes, I think those two are connected. That people all have the predators mind, and that's what makes them, on the one hand, hypnotists, and on the other hand, susceptible to hypnosis. It's a combination of the selfishness and the belief-centred modes of being.

I've seen it happen in an obvious way with women, where there would be this intense sense of attraction or want for some attractive person which just festers for a while, and then followed by a sense of connection with that person upon looking at them. It literally feels like bolts being shot out of my eyes and hitting that person. The other person tends to end up visibly flustered or will become curious about me. It sounds weird and it's not (at least as far as I know) a conscious thing.
It's a really strange thing to experience. By that I mean, it's strange if you are analysing it in the moment, rather than getting lost in it. If you are detached enough to think to yourself, "Wow, this is so interesting. I look at this person and it's like the clouds have parted and a ray of light is beaming down onto them and they cause me to feel happiness when I look at them or even just think of them."

One idea is that you've seen something in that person that mirrors back some ideal image you have of yourself. When it happens to me, I usually remember the part in The Wave where Laura is talking about how something like a 'red hat' can have been associated with a pleasant mood during childhood development: So maybe it's the shape of the person's face or the colour of their hair, or just the item of clothing they're wearing.

Jordan Peterson's explanation for it is that when you see someone like that, in that way, that you're "Seeing them as the person they might ideally become." Well, I've never really bought into that idea, personally. Seems way too egocentric to me.

But what you describe above seems to be more about what goes on in yourself, and then because you probably start to change your demeanour towards the person you're viewing in that way, that starts to affect them, either making them uncomfortable or making them curious about why you're acting that way towards them.

I suppose that's certainly a way to engage them in a hypnotic dance, but it says more to me about our ability to hypnotise ourselves, so to speak. That G.'s declared aim in his work was to "Find a way to mercilessly destroy the aspect of people that causes them to easily fall under the influence of mass hypnosis." When we find ourselves in such a state when interacting with someone, we need to understand that we are allowing that to happen within ourselves. And if you experiment with it, you will find that it's like a switch that you can turn on and off. Because when it comes to hypnosis or wishful thinking, there has to be some level of consent in us; we allow ourselves to be hypnotised.

And that ties in with the whole idea about negative thought loops and 'criminally-minded' thinking patterns. For starters, at the very least, we allow ourselves to believe that the thoughts are actually ours, just because they're habitual and we've never questioned them. Then, we allow ourselves to believe the thoughts or believe the justifications that they're constructing - because said thoughts are usually getting us to believe that we'll derive some sort of benefit by acting on them.

Bringing the topic back to psychopathy, one would assume that the wiles of psychopaths would be much bolstered by this ability to will others to their bidding. It's pretty discomfiting to know that, to some degree, I've been operating like this for a while, thinking that I had special powers of some sort. I'm starting to realise that there are also others in my life who do the same thing. It's a pretty base tactic, really, and not something that you'd want to allow yourself to do. So I think G was probably not very wise in keeping that opening for using hypnotism for scientific purposes, or maybe that he was not STO enough to be careful about his use of this method. I suppose it is also the attraction of power for it's sake that drives people to do these things.
I don't think G.'s problem was the methods and techniques he decided to use. I think his problem was the lack of a network for him to check himself against.

Actually, now that I think about it, it's become more apparent in my interactions with others, how I consciously use this method, for example, a well placed smile with an intended effect of making the other party more agreeable, or just a stare which tends to create a certain intended response. It's creepy to realise this in myself. I hope I can change my ways.
Don't be too quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The fact is, we live in a 'civilised' society. That means there are established rules and customs in place that determine how we should conduct ourselves in the presence of others: of strangers, work colleagues, friends and family.

To attempt to just 'stop' this kind of thing is a knee-jerk reaction, driven by fear or disgust. If you try to act it out, the result ends up being along the lines of, "Sincerity with everyone is weakness." It becomes a selfish thing: "I'm not going to be manipulative with people anymore, so I'm not going to engage with people in any way that might influence them subconsciously..." So then all you're bothered about is what you want, and what you want from people. And you won't go out of your way to just simply be 'fake' for the sake of being civil. You're not going to be attentive to what other people might want or need from you if you're just focusing on and fearing what you might want or need from them.

The answer is to continue going about your day as you always have (as long as you're not a jerk) but be consciously aware of what you're doing and how you're being and how you're interacting with others, knowing that you have the capacity to unconsciously affect others, but also accepting that "If you play in the dirt, you're going to get dirty", and there's much merit to 'playing the game' or 'playing a role', as long as your intentions are as good as you can possibly make them. Otherwise, you cause problems for yourself and others, you start to stand out as 'weird' or 'unconventional', and that flags you up on other people's radars as an 'other', as 'different' - not one of the tribe, not one to be trusted, like a horse stood in a herd of zebras.
 

beetlemaniac

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
It's a really strange thing to experience. By that I mean, it's strange if you are analysing it in the moment, rather than getting lost in it. If you are detached enough to think to yourself, "Wow, this is so interesting. I look at this person and it's like the clouds have parted and a ray of light is beaming down onto them and they cause me to feel happiness when I look at them or even just think of them."
It doesn't happen like that, it's not projection per se. This has happened several times and I see that they do react in some way to my looking at them. This quote from the book made me think that what I experienced was some form of hypnotism:

The above passages are of singular significance for this study. Here Gurdjieff lays out the basic conditions necessary for the arousal of the hypnotic state. These conditions are worth examining in summary and further detail: 1) Willingness of the subject to be subjected to an attraction; 2) Concentrated direction/distraction of attention toward an object as a result of emotional impulses such as: intense expectation, faith, fear, or passions (such as hate, love, sensuality, and curiosity); 3) Sufficiently long and persistent, intentional or automatic, concentration of thought and feeling on the object.
Don't be too quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The fact is, we live in a 'civilised' society. That means there are established rules and customs in place that determine how we should conduct ourselves in the presence of others: of strangers, work colleagues, friends and family.

To attempt to just 'stop' this kind of thing is a knee-jerk reaction, driven by fear or disgust. If you try to act it out, the result ends up being along the lines of, "Sincerity with everyone is weakness." It becomes a selfish thing: "I'm not going to be manipulative with people anymore, so I'm not going to engage with people in any way that might influence them subconsciously..." So then all you're bothered about is what you want, and what you want from people. And you won't go out of your way to just simply be 'fake' for the sake of being civil. You're not going to be attentive to what other people might want or need from you if you're just focusing on and fearing what you might want or need from them.

The answer is to continue going about your day as you always have (as long as you're not a jerk) but be consciously aware of what you're doing and how you're being and how you're interacting with others, knowing that you have the capacity to unconsciously affect others, but also accepting that "If you play in the dirt, you're going to get dirty", and there's much merit to 'playing the game' or 'playing a role', as long as your intentions are as good as you can possibly make them. Otherwise, you cause problems for yourself and others, you start to stand out as 'weird' or 'unconventional', and that flags you up on other people's radars as an 'other', as 'different' - not one of the tribe, not one to be trusted, like a horse stood in a herd of zebras.
I hear you here T.C., it's a lesson which I've probably repeated a few times and still seem to not have learnt. I can get very single-minded and self-absorbed to the point of not behaving normally. And I have behaved like a jerk many times more than I would like to admit.
 

beetlemaniac

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I suppose that's certainly a way to engage them in a hypnotic dance, but it says more to me about our ability to hypnotise ourselves, so to speak. That G.'s declared aim in his work was to "Find a way to mercilessly destroy the aspect of people that causes them to easily fall under the influence of mass hypnosis." When we find ourselves in such a state when interacting with someone, we need to understand that we are allowing that to happen within ourselves. And if you experiment with it, you will find that it's like a switch that you can turn on and off. Because when it comes to hypnosis or wishful thinking, there has to be some level of consent in us; we allow ourselves to be hypnotised.

And that ties in with the whole idea about negative thought loops and 'criminally-minded' thinking patterns. For starters, at the very least, we allow ourselves to believe that the thoughts are actually ours, just because they're habitual and we've never questioned them. Then, we allow ourselves to believe the thoughts or believe the justifications that they're constructing - because said thoughts are usually getting us to believe that we'll derive some sort of benefit by acting on them.
Hi again T.C.,

I think my post above did not sufficiently address the very important issues that you raised in your post and I apologise for that. You've reminded me of the fact that I have many periods where I'm asleep and fooling myself - or as you put it, hypnotising myself as to what's going on in front of me. It's as though I'm blind and deaf to the outside world and taken over by an internal cacophony - which can reach proverbial Dyonisian levels.

I am reminded of the words in the POTS - clear my eyes, that I may see, clear my ears, that I may hear, and cleanse my heart, that I may know and love, the holiness of true existence, Divine Cosmic Mind.

Thanks again for your most esteemed input T.C.

However, I still have to note that I think there is something to these so-called hypnotic powers that I seem to have - or at least have experienced through me. It mainly involved channeling a highly charged emotion to another person, and it felt like it came out of my eyes like bolts of light. It sounds strange but I think stranger things have happened.

It reminds me of biophotons. Scientists have measured what are called Ultraweak Photon Emissions (UPE) from the human eye. In fact, all biological organisms seem to emit photons. It has been hypothesised that light is what informs all living beings, which is aligned to what the C's have said. This article is an old one:

Confirmed: The Eye Emits Actual Light (Biophotons) -- Sott.net
Biophotons: The human body emits, communicates with, and is it made from light -- Sott.net

The science is further explicated in this thread by Keyhole:
Circadian Biology determines health, not food! DHA, Blue light and nnEMF

I hope that you will find the links above interesting! Sorry for the slight digression, I wanted to connect some dots with regards to my experience. It will probably take some time before I can grasp the theory behind this (biophotons).
 

Persej

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I really enjoyed reading the "Gurdjieff and Hypnosis: A Hermenuetic Study". It explained a lot of things in a very detailed and easy to understand way.

But I hoped that it will talk a little more about "Beelzebub's Tales" and how exactly was Gurdjieff using his skills in writing that book and influencing the readers. Unfortunately, the book doesn't cover that.

But I found about this book that seems to talks about that aspect: https://www.amazon.com/Fathom-Gist-Approaches-Writings-Gurdjieff/dp/0978979141

There is also this radio interview with the author: The Mystical Positivist: The Mystical Positivist - Radio Show #253 - 11MAR17
 

Persej

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I listened to the interview with Frank Herbert on the origins of Dune, and in one part he mentioned how he used the specific rhythm in his book to create an influence on the reader. It reminded me of what Gurdjieff did in his book. He also used foreign words for that purpose, in his case it was Latin. He also mentions the importance of reading aloud, just like Gurdjieff did. The part where he talks about his style of writing starts at 11:29:


So that's about the style. But speaking about Gurdjieff's cosmology, he was probably influenced by Kryzhanovskaya.
 

hlat

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I listened to an abridged version of In Search of the Miraculous, and heard Gurdjieff's theory of moons becoming earths and earths becoming suns. It seems safe to disregard this kind of stuff.

False materialism and false determinism, going against consciousness and free will. These are foundational philosophies, and choosing the wrong ones can quickly lead a person astray.
 
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