Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

[Laura]

[quote author= Turgon]Bjorn,

I can see where you were both coming from. But I think you were describing what we are trying to do as far as spiritual development. But when it comes to 4D STS, I find it hard to fathom how you ascend to a more ethereal state of being while being consumed by negative emotions. Because things like greed, selfishness and hate are all limiting in so many ways.

I don’t get that either. But I could have missed it somewhere in the sessions or in other material. To clarify in case it wasn’t clear, with ethereal I meant nonphysical beings.

I guess ''graduation'' for STS to the fourth level is possible for some need of balance in service of the school.
[/quote]

I think you need to read the thread about negative emotions. https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,7197.0.html

Who said that negative emotions are greed, selfishness and hate?

See also: https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2832.0

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6419.msg44151#msg44151

Have either of you read the Mouravieff Gnosis trilogy?

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= Laura]Who said that negative emotions are greed, selfishness and hate? [/quote]

You mean the usefulness of negative emotions.

But 4STS dwells on 'STS traits' such as greed, selfishness and hate etc from what I understand. But will read the topics shared before I comment further. I don't get how their gradution works among other things.


[quote author= Laura]Have either of you read the Mouravieff Gnosis trilogy? [/quote]

In a PDF format on a computer screen many years back. I don’t remember it all, or understood everything. I should buy it in paperback and start over.

Added: No not the full trilogy I believe.

 

[Turgon]

[quote author= Turgon]Bjorn,

I can see where you were both coming from. But I think you were describing what we are trying to do as far as spiritual development. But when it comes to 4D STS, I find it hard to fathom how you ascend to a more ethereal state of being while being consumed by negative emotions. Because things like greed, selfishness and hate are all limiting in so many ways.

I don’t get that either. But I could have missed it somewhere in the sessions or in other material. To clarify in case it wasn’t clear, with ethereal I meant nonphysical beings.

I guess ''graduation'' for STS to the fourth level is possible for some need of balance in service of the school.

I think you need to read the thread about negative emotions. https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,7197.0.html

Who said that negative emotions are greed, selfishness and hate?

See also: https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2832.0

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6419.msg44151#msg44151

Have either of you read the Mouravieff Gnosis trilogy?
[/quote]

Aren't they the manifestations of negative emotions that haven't been properly metabolized or transmuted in some way? So maybe they aren't negative emotions, per se. But no, I haven't read any of Mouravieff's work, and should probably read the threads you linked before commenting any further.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= Turgon]Bjorn,

I can see where you were both coming from. But I think you were describing what we are trying to do as far as spiritual development. But when it comes to 4D STS, I find it hard to fathom how you ascend to a more ethereal state of being while being consumed by negative emotions. Because things like greed, selfishness and hate are all limiting in so many ways.

I don’t get that either. But I could have missed it somewhere in the sessions or in other material. To clarify in case it wasn’t clear, with ethereal I meant nonphysical beings.

I guess ''graduation'' for STS to the fourth level is possible for some need of balance in service of the school.

I think you need to read the thread about negative emotions. https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,7197.0.html

Who said that negative emotions are greed, selfishness and hate?

See also: https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2832.0

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6419.msg44151#msg44151

Have either of you read the Mouravieff Gnosis trilogy?

Aren't they the manifestations of negative emotions that haven't been properly metabolized or transmuted in some way? So maybe they aren't negative emotions, per se. But no, I haven't read any of Mouravieff's work, and should probably read the threads you linked before commenting any further.
[/quote]

I remember a bit that could have something to do with it (How they manage to 'graduate')

https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Black_magnetic_center
A black magnetic center is a perversion of the magnetic center. A 'real' magnetic center forms through and guides a man in genuine esoteric work. By contrast, a black magnetic center is the result of a self-serving caricature of esoteric work, and pulls a man further towards it.

In the adept of service to self, there is a certain development that parallels the positive development of genuine esoteric work, and a certain fusion of the being that makes the aspirant less ambiguous and more focused. This can be said to take place around a 'black magnetic center,' a sort of concentration of negativity, where wishful thinking increasingly replaces objective understanding of reality. The aspirant comes to embody influences that run parallel to genuine higher influences, but which are deceptive caricature of these.

In his Gnosis books, Boris Mouravieff discusses various abnormalities of the working and formation of centers. He mentions the possibility of strong development of the negative halves of the emotional and intellectual centers along with a strong moving center. Such individuals may even find similarly oriented polar opposites, forming very destructive combinations.

- I won't mind reading the full trilogy this time. It has been years.

 

[Laura]

Hmmm... I think I was reading too fast and missed something. Probably the better thing to read for understanding how STS concentrates evil for graduation is the Ra Material. I think that most of it is online.

 

[John G]

Hmmm... I think I was reading too fast and missed something. Probably the better thing to read for understanding how STS concentrates evil for graduation is the Ra Material. I think that most of it is online.

Yeah there's another Cass Wiki article that mentions the Ra view:

https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Graduation_to_fourth_density

Ra says that one must be either over 50% service to others or over 95% service to self in orientation to qualify. These are equally difficult for the human, which by nature fluctuates somewhere in-between. Fluctuating in-between only qualifies one for more of the same, in the hope that enough experience eventually drive one to choose either polarity... Ra speaks of the balance and intensity of the rays or chakras. STO is balanced but STS graduates by a sort of omission, by skipping the heart chakra or higher emotional center and directly going to the higher intellectual functions for accessing 'magical' powers. The Fourth Way says the same in different words, after all even the name of George Gurdjieff's institute was the Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man. The lower centers must be balanced and brought under the control of the magnetic center, which fuses with the higher emotional center and finally opens the higher intellectual center. Opening the higher intellectual center by other means is black magic and opposed to the Fourth Way.

 

[gdpetti]

So, essentially the STS adept wants to shut down their conscience if and when it gets in their way of attaining more power and self control... essentially to be like a psychopath.... a 'smart' one... which comes naturally to the psycho, but less so to those who feel innately STS in orientation. Ra used the Tarot images because the LL group did... STS as the Moonlight in preference... STO as those preferring to walk in the sunlight etc....contraction vs expansion of self.. thus the STS are always 'hungry'... working with others takes on a different meaning for STS... a strategic assessment like any profit/loss statement or cost/benefit analysis... those who foolishly think they can command higher STS beings and keep control will find their analysis at fault... I think one of the few to do so successfully with a lower level 4dSTS entity was the Great Khan... if I remember correctly... but some of that data could be incorrect without further questioning, which wasn't done due to lack of interest... same with any group, everyone has their interests, access points to the data stream of consciousness.

 

[Bobo08]

I've finished the first four parts of "The Idea of History". I think the most important takeaway from that is the fundamental difference between history and science, or mind and matter. Science studies its object from the outside so both are essentially static. In contrast, the object of study in history is the human mind, i.e. the object includes the subject. As the understanding of the object increases, it changes the subject itself in a virtuous spiral. This is essentially what the Work is about.

I haven't started on "Gurdjieff and Hypnosis", but from Laura's comments so far, I can see why his treating everything as matter is in the end, a fundamental limiting factor. Gurdjieff could get a lot of things right due to his experience, but it will eventually hit a ceiling based on the above philosophical consideration. At that point, one will have to go back and start again. Crystallization on a wrong foundation, indeed.

Above are just some of my thoughts at the moment. Will go back and tackle the rest of the book. It's been a slog but very worthwhile so far

 

[Anthony]

I've finished the first four parts of "The Idea of History". I think the most important takeaway from that is the fundamental difference between history and science, or mind and matter. Science studies its object from the outside so both are essentially static. In contrast, the object of study in history is the human mind, i.e. the object includes the subject. As the understanding of the object increases, it changes the subject itself in a virtuous spiral. This is essentially what the Work is about.

I haven't started on "Gurdjieff and Hypnosis", but from Laura's comments so far, I can see why his treating everything as matter is in the end, a fundamental limiting factor. Gurdjieff could get a lot of things right due to his experience, but it will eventually hit a ceiling based on the above philosophical consideration. At that point, one will have to go back and start again. Crystallization on a wrong foundation, indeed.

Above are just some of my thoughts at the moment. Will go back and tackle the rest of the book. It's been a slog but very worthwhile so far

If historical reasearch is one of the primary ways the mind gets to know itself, having an overly materialistic (i.e. it's all about the events and not the thoughts) view of the past will hinder self-knowledge, and self-knowledge is at the center of what G. thought was important for awakening from sleep.

 

[Laura]

Excellent observations, Bobo08 and Anthony. Those are some of the take-aways I hope everyone will get from this reading. Part V of "The Idea of History" is where it gets REALLY interesting. Brace yourself for a very interesting ride!

You can probably see that Gurdjieff sought to align himself with the "scientific" perspective and "solve all the mysteries" thereby. In this respect, notice Bluelamp's post from the wiki about STS graduation to 4th density. Even though Gurdjieff was, apparently, trying to mechanically awaken conscience, his approach was rather that of the Black Magician in his own terms!!! Yes, there was some amelioration of this later, as in his little tome "Herald of the Coming Good", but still, for 21 years he apparently practiced against what he preached. But you'll get all the details about this in "Gurdjieff and Hypnosis."

Any further observations or issues from anyone else?

 

[Altair]

Any further observations or issues from anyone else?

I was thinking today about the possible real reason why Ouspensky left G. As far as I remember he was opposed to G as a person and was against his methods. So maybe he recognized G. for he possibly was? A "black magician" manipulating other people? Just a speculation...

Edit: grammar

 

[dugdeep]

I was looking through Amazon reviews of "Gurdjieff and Hypnosis" and found that the author himself, Mohammad H. Tamdgidi, had replied to some of the negative reviews. It's a very interesting read, found here (look at the one-star reviews and click to see the comments to see Tamdgidi's replies), as they are quite long and detailed. But there was something in particular that caught my attention. Here's a snip from one review:

The comments posted (on Dec. 26, 2010) on Amazon.com by "MJ Thomas" about my book Gurdjieff and Hypnosis: A Hermeneutic Study are excerpts from a review that appeared shortly earlier in volume 14, Issue 1 (#53, Dec. 2010; a subscription teaser for which soon appeared on the website) of The Gurdjieff Journal, published by Gurdjieff Legacy, edited by William Patrick Patterson who is a follower of Gurdjieff. There, the slightly longer version (including some endnotes) is signed by "Marc Cleven." MJ Thomas then rapidly posted the same excerpt (with slight variations of title or text) on various websites, including those of Barnes & Noble and Buzzillions. Using the signature "xmarc999," he also found it necessary to post a note in an online discussion of the Cassipopaea Forum on the book, where he referred to his having "posted a much longer commentary on Amazon with more detail." Judging from his past Amazon reviews (click on his name/signature to see them), MJ Thomas seems to have a unique attraction to W. P. Patterson's line of work.

The post referred to in the bold above appears here, on an older thread about the book "Gurdjieff and Hypnosis". The poster appears to have created an account for the sole purpose of discrediting Tamdgidi's book, as it's his/her only post.

From another of Tamdgidi's replies to a separate negative Amazon review:

It is not readily apparent to me at all whether Henry Korman [comment's author] has actually read my book before writing his notes here. I am not even sure if he has read Gurdjieff carefully, to be frank. His notes here, rather, come off as a hasty attempt to comradely support what another reviewer in the same circle (MJ Thomas) posted a day prior to his.

It makes me wonder if there was a deliberate attempt to discredit the book by giving it negative reviews around the web. Given Tamdgidi's mention of the one poster's affiliation with Patterson, I wonder if this is where it originated. Just speculation, of course.

 

[Laura]

Any further observations or issues from anyone else?

I was thinking today about the possible real reason why Ouspensky left G. As far as I remember he was opposed to G as a person and was against his methods. So maybe he recognized G. for he possibly was? A "black magician" manipulating other people? Just a speculation...

Edit: grammar

"Gurdjieff and Hypnosis" discusses that relationship to some extent, though not in depth. The point is made that, at a certain point in time, Ouspensky wanted a demonstration from Gurdjieff about his claimed powers. Apparently, Gurdjieff gave it to him and it was a very bizarre and possibly upsetting experience. It was after that, I believe, that Ouspensky became disaffected.

Interestingly, even though Ouspensky was able to intellectualize a great deal, he doesn't seem to have ever grown an "essence" to match his intellect. His problems with his alcoholism eventually destroyed him. But then, one has to wonder about that, too. Was he so disillusioned by Gurdjieff or was it just weakness on his part?

 

[genero81]

What really came to mind while reading so far is the concept of 'mind as a cathedral' The sort of cross referencing/ cross utilizing of methodologies i.e. science and philosophy to conceptualize history as a study of mans progressive evolution towards self awareness or conscious evolution. The way Collingwood analyzes and maps out the progression of historical thinkers is amazing. I guess the other thing that struck me so far was the idea that man's 'fickle and selfish' nature creates conditions of hardship and suffering that serves as a motivating factor for progress. Looking forward to the rest of the book.

 

[Laura]

In response to Dugdeep's post above, I had a look at the amazon review in question and wrote a short response. I also took a look at the thread referenced which passed under the radar at the time. I'm wondering if we ought to merge that thread with this one, retaining the "Gurdjieff and Hypnosis" thread title in case other people are searching around about this book. That xmark99 guy sure was not telling the truth about the book!!!

ADDED: Maybe not the merge: the other thread is in "books".