Has anybody from this forum become man number 4 (or higher)?

riclapaz

Dagobah Resident
Re: Does anybody from this forum, has became man number 4 (or higher)?

Hitsu said:
Otherwise it is worrying, since this forum has about 5k users
Code:
563,578 Posts in 33,227 Topics by 5,237 Members. Latest Member: SatampraZeiros
and discusses a lot about 4th way, so I assume some people will start to practice it. Let's say 10% of total number, that's ~1k member.
So 1k members try to become man #4 and if anybody of them HASN'T succeed at that - that's worrying.

Here I disagree a little with you Hitsu, I find no reason to be concerned, if your intentions are serious and real here in the forum, as mentioned by CS, if you have faith in this process, simply work without anticipation, believe the results will come by themselves at the exact moment, his initial question about man 4, as others have already answered, we can not know, the only thing that if I have clear is that if you choose to see life objectively, you would be creating a different reality that we live in today day, here an idea to start the work itself:

Gurdjieff said:
"One of the best ways to awaken the desire to work on himself, is to understand that you can die at any moment. But first you must learn how to keep this in mind."
 

Neil

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Re: Does anybody from this forum, has became man number 4 (or higher)?

This thread may interest you and I think it relates to the topic http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,36700.0.html

While I echo what the others have said that what you have asked is not something that can really be known, there do seem to be generalized stages in the Work and certain crises that must be overcome which all fall within general themes along the various steps. My personal opinion is that some of the people on here might be more advanced than they think they are, but having learned the lessons of self-deception, no one wants to ascribe such qualities to themselves unless they're 100% certain. It also leads to a certain "guru-ization," where some people may be seen as "authorities," and people unfamiliar with the process will depend on them for information in a hierarchical manner, at the expense of the regular members who may offer insightful input while being seen as "non-authorities" on the subject. This is not in keeping with the circular method of sharing embraced here, where everyone who is interested in researching a subject can throw in their insights and it is valued more or less equally against what everybody else has studied and a consensus is formed. Sure, there are certain teachers on here who carry a little more weight than a newbie, but it is a very flat hierarchy with minimal stratification between the levels. Think concentric circles.

Having said that, and studied the stages as presented by Mouravieff, Laura's autobiography details all of the various crises she went through on the way to channeling the Cassiopaeans and eventually meeting Ark, which suddenly put her in a completely different reality. In order to this, she basically had to give up all of her illusions about herself and be able to see the external reality through the lens of a "beginner's mind," which sounds an awful lot like what is described as The Second Birth. Personally, I'd be surprised if she and Ark weren't at least Man number 5. However, she adamantly insists that she is NOT a "Master" and does NOT wish to be treated as such. Master is more of an STS concept, I think.

Another example would be some of the senior moderators who came over from the old QFS. They seem to have a certain dedication and consistency in going about what they do that, at least from the outside, seems to have something of a different character than most people you will see in external life. This would seem to be indicative of a magnetic center, but again, this is only my opinion based on my interpretation of what I've studied and not a fact that can be mathematically established.

If you read that thread and some of the materials studied here, I think you will see that these "Masters," while they were very smart and definitely knew something, didn't have the whole banana and some of the things they came up with were more or less arbitrary like numerical gradations. I actually don't think it's quite that linear either. I think the school is perfectly capable of producing "graduates", but they don't give out diplomas, if that makes any sense.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: Does anybody from this forum, has became man number 4 (or higher)?

Neil said:
This thread may interest you and I think it relates to the topic http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,36700.0.html
Good advice is already given. To quote little more from the above thread Neil mentioned:
Data said:
This esoteric staircase has a peculiarity which we must keep in our minds. It is not possible for us to stay on a particular step indefinitely. After a specified delay, sufficient for him to fulfill the task required from him by the note in force,the step will give way.

He doesn't explain what it means, or how it manifests, when a step "gives way". Maybe it leads to a general degeneration of the individual? The idea that there is "limited time" is also mentioned by G, only in relation to society at large:

In Search of the Miraculous said:
"There is a definite period," he said, "for a certain thing to be done. If, by a certain time, what ought to be done has not been done, the earth may perish without having attained what it could have attained."

"Is this period known?" I asked.

"It is known," said G. "But it would be no advantage whatever for people to know it. It would even be worse. Some would believe it, others would not believe it, yet others
would demand proofs. Afterwards they would begin to break one another's heads. Everything ends this way with people."
It looks to me that this bolded portion is also valid in this context.
 

Richs

Dagobah Resident
Neil said:
This thread may interest you and I think it relates to the topic http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,36700.0.html

While I echo what the others have said that what you have asked is not something that can really be known, there do seem to be generalized stages in the Work and certain crises that must be overcome which all fall within general themes along the various steps. My personal opinion is that some of the people on here might be more advanced than they think they are, but having learned the lessons of self-deception, no one wants to ascribe such qualities to themselves unless they're 100% certain. It also leads to a certain "guru-ization," where some people may be seen as "authorities," and people unfamiliar with the process will depend on them for information in a hierarchical manner, at the expense of the regular members who may offer insightful input while being seen as "non-authorities" on the subject. This is not in keeping with the circular method of sharing embraced here, where everyone who is interested in researching a subject can throw in their insights and it is valued more or less equally against what everybody else has studied and a consensus is formed. Sure, there are certain teachers on here who carry a little more weight than a newbie, but it is a very flat hierarchy with minimal stratification between the levels. Think concentric circles.

Having said that, and studied the stages as presented by Mouravieff, Laura's autobiography details all of the various crises she went through on the way to channeling the Cassiopaeans and eventually meeting Ark, which suddenly put her in a completely different reality. In order to this, she basically had to give up all of her illusions about herself and be able to see the external reality through the lens of a "beginner's mind," which sounds an awful lot like what is described as The Second Birth. Personally, I'd be surprised if she and Ark weren't at least Man number 5. However, she adamantly insists that she is NOT a "Master" and does NOT wish to be treated as such. Master is more of an STS concept, I think.

Another example would be some of the senior moderators who came over from the old QFS. They seem to have a certain dedication and consistency in going about what they do that, at least from the outside, seems to have something of a different character than most people you will see in external life. This would seem to be indicative of a magnetic center, but again, this is only my opinion based on my interpretation of what I've studied and not a fact that can be mathematically established.

If you read that thread and some of the materials studied here, I think you will see that these "Masters," while they were very smart and definitely knew something, didn't have the whole banana and some of the things they came up with were more or less arbitrary like numerical gradations. I actually don't think it's quite that linear either. I think the school is perfectly capable of producing "graduates", but they don't give out diplomas, if that makes any sense.

Thank you Neil for a well-put explanation of why those of us here do not speak about where we may be in the 'progression level'.

I would like to add that those who have been here for quite some time also do not want to be considered "teachers" in any of the traditional ways we think of the word (let alone 'Guru'). All of us here do wish to share whatever we have learned, whether we are fairly new here or very experienced. We are actually doing our best to "network" as the C's have indicated we should begin practicing at.

In networking, everyone's input is of value and important. I would encourage those who do not post regularly to get involved in some of the conversations. This way, we will all learn more and grow more rapidly. I also encourage those who only read here and who are not members to also join the forum and add to the knowledge with their own contributions. We would be glad to have you with us.
 

mrelectric91

Padawan Learner
Thanks for asking this question OP. The numbers are something that play on my mind. I am wondering if a man could be a 4 or 5 without knowing the work. Simply by being a balanced human and living a balanced life, maybe dedicating themselves to perfecting a craft with all the centres being applied correctly and efficiently etc.

When I think of super high achieving people, I wonder if they represent another plateu that allowed them to excel and inspire so greatly;

Thomas Edison
Nikola Tesla
Michaengelo
Muhammed Ali
Michael Jordan
JS Bach
Stanley Kubrick
......so on

Is this what man number 4 looks like people who seemed able to really DO at their craft.
 

Navigator

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: Does anybody from this forum, has became man number 4 (or higher)?

Hitsu said:
Otherwise it is worrying, since this forum has about 5k users
Code:
563,578 Posts in 33,227 Topics by 5,237 Members. Latest Member: SatampraZeiros
and discusses a lot about 4th way, so I assume some people will start to practice it. Let's say 10% of total number, that's ~1k member.
So 1k members try to become man #4 and if anybody of them HASN'T succeed at that - that's worrying.

Looking for some assurance that this is the right place to be to accomplish it?

How about you ask yourself first whether you want to do The Work and you understand what it takes.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
mrelectric91 said:
Thanks for asking this question OP. The numbers are something that play on my mind. I am wondering if a man could be a 4 or 5 without knowing the work. Simply by being a balanced human and living a balanced life, maybe dedicating themselves to perfecting a craft with all the centres being applied correctly and efficiently etc.

When I think of super high achieving people, I wonder if they represent another plateu that allowed them to excel and inspire so greatly;

Thomas Edison
Nikola Tesla
Michaengelo
Muhammed Ali
Michael Jordan
JS Bach
Stanley Kubrick
......so on

Is this what man number 4 looks like people who seemed able to really DO at their craft.

Well, such achievements may not necessarily be due to high level of development. The history of science gives many examples. One of the main nineteenth-century geologists, Sir Roderick Murchison, was apparently driven "by a determination to gain all the glory of discovery for himself" and to minimize the achievements of rivals by emphasizing their mistakes. As historian of science, M. J. S. Rudwick, points out, "such morally ambiguous passions are often what sustain scientific activity." The philosopher, Hume, wrote that "Reason, being cool and disengaged, is no motive to action, and directs only the impulse received from appetite or inclination by showing us the means of attaining happiness or avoiding misery." (Enquiry Concerning the Principles of Morals)

Emotion is what drives individuals and one needs to understand what emotion it is.
 

Menna

The Living Force
Thanks for asking this question OP. The numbers are something that play on my mind. I am wondering if a man could be a 4 or 5 without knowing the work. Simply by being a balanced human and living a balanced life, maybe dedicating themselves to perfecting a craft with all the centres being applied correctly and efficiently etc.

When I think of super high achieving people, I wonder if they represent another plateu that allowed them to excel and inspire so greatly;

Thomas Edison
Nikola Tesla
Michaengelo
Muhammed Ali
Michael Jordan
JS Bach
Stanley Kubrick
......so on

Is this what man number 4 looks like people who seemed able to really DO at their craft

I don't think excelling at one craft or even two is indicative of growth to level 4 or 5 in terms of the work. Other parts of life can be way off balance take MJ for example. G talked about "artists" and their pitfalls.
 

Nienna

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
mrelectric91 said:
Thanks for asking this question OP. The numbers are something that play on my mind. I am wondering if a man could be a 4 or 5 without knowing the work. Simply by being a balanced human and living a balanced life, maybe dedicating themselves to perfecting a craft with all the centres being applied correctly and efficiently etc.

When I think of super high achieving people, I wonder if they represent another plateu that allowed them to excel and inspire so greatly;

Thomas Edison
Nikola Tesla
Michaengelo
Muhammed Ali
Michael Jordan
JS Bach
Stanley Kubrick
......so on

Is this what man number 4 looks like people who seemed able to really DO at their craft.

Being a master of a craft does not mean being a master of oneself.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
Re: Does anybody from this forum, has became man number 4 (or higher)?

Keyhole said:
RedFox said:
I don't know of anyone, but then how could I know? Without reaching that level myself I doubt I could even perceive it osit
And I'd be extremely wary of anyone who claims they have reached that level.
Exactly. If man can only perceive his own level of being then it would be impossible to distinguish any one with a higher level than himself. It is an interesting question which I have pondered myself though. This reminded me of WPP on sotttalkradio claiming to be "awake".

Yes, I second RedFox and Keyhole,
I mean would someone who had become man nr. 4 even feel any need to tell anybody, it's not like it can be proven, and someone reaching a high level but still having so much ego as wanting to tell people how far he/she has come, I wouldn't want as a teacher.
(hehe It was so bizarre when WPP claimed to be awake and asked Joe if he was, and Joe said something like he wasn't awake but trying to get there, and it was just sooo obvious who of those two were most awake...)

Nienna said:
Being a master of a craft does not mean being a master of oneself.

Yes and I would add, that not even being master of spiritual powers necessarily means being master of one self
 

riclapaz

Dagobah Resident
mrelectric91 said:
Thanks for asking this question OP. The numbers are something that play on my mind. I am wondering if a man could be a 4 or 5 without knowing the work.

As others have replied mrelectric91, according to Gurdjieff , for a man to become numero 4 man, it is only through the work itself, life itself does not produce them, since their centers are better balanced, and this only is achieved through the work of a teacher and a school, the center of gravity is done for the ideas and work of the teacher.
 

Hitsu

Padawan Learner
Wow, soo many answers, nice :)

With my limited time (full-time job + 80% free time directed to writing MSc thesis) I won't be able to answer everybody.
 

BrandonD

The Force is Strong With This One
Hitsu said:
as in subject:

Does anybody from this forum, has became man number 4 (or higher)?

Do you know anybody in real life who has magnetic center ? etc

According to my understanding and experience, there is no objective external means by which to identify a person's "level" with regard to Ouspensky's chart of man 1-7.

I see a parallel in the C's description of an organic portal. They've stated that one cannot simply identify organic portals in ordinary life - identification of an OP requires extended observation on an individual basis, because an organic portal and a souled being in a struggle can appear identical from an outside perspective.

But in my opinion, identification is even more difficult with regard to a "man #4". This is because he would be a man who is "above" an ordinary human being. A parallel would be the idea that it requires a degree of authentic intelligence to recognize others with intelligence.

In my experience, all external manifestations may have their origin in either negative or positive internal states - which is why it is wise to withhold judgment of others, if possible.

Take, for example, confidence. A man who displays confidence may do so because he has eliminated self-doubt and self-importance, while another man may display that identical confidence because of intense insecurity, and he has learned that mimicry of this behavior results in much-desired admiration from other people.
 

BrandonD

The Force is Strong With This One
BrandonD said:
Hitsu said:
as in subject:

Does anybody from this forum, has became man number 4 (or higher)?

Do you know anybody in real life who has magnetic center ? etc

According to my understanding and experience, there is no objective external means by which to identify a person's "level" with regard to Ouspensky's chart of man 1-7.

(edit: I would amend my above statement to apply to "man #4" and above, as there are probably fairly reliable means to identify whether an ordinary man operates chiefly from his instinctive, emotional, or intellectual center)
 

Highfive

The Force is Strong With This One
Good day,

I have been visiting this forum (and many others) from time to time, and I think the OP has good, heartfelt, and intelligent questions regarding an important subject. This is what inspired my response. I have no interest in being a regular poster here, so unless there are additional questions this will be both my introduction post and my final post.

I am what Mouravieff refer to as man 5 (I guess I should pardon my lack of fake "humility", but such "humility" as expressed by man 1-4 is based on an inferiority complex. When being "bigger/better" than everyone else is no option, one can always pretend and find pleasure in being "the smallest/meekest etc."... At the level of man 5 one knows with objective inner certainty that everyone is equal at the core, so the whole game falls away as irrelevant).

Before discussing this further let's sum up the levels of man with a quote from Mouravieff:

Men 1, 2 or 3, driven by the energy of the sexual center freely flowing through
the three centers, make do with the provisional 'I' of the Personality, an
unstable 'I'; changing; illogical with himself; leading a factitious existence.
The situation is completely reversed when —crossing the stage of man 4
successfully — the dedicated searcher becomes an interior man: 5, then 6 and
finally 7:

— Having become man 5, he becomes permanently conscious of his real 'I'
— Having become man 6, he attains permanent Consciousness;
— Having become man 7, he is liberated by obtaining a true Will.

The way I see it most people interested in self growth, spirituality, or "the work" as you call it here are somewhere in the sub-levels of man 4.

Man 4 is not a stable and solid state of being. It's a level of transition from being in the chaos of the thousand little "i's" to starting more and more to listen to your own inner guidance/conscience and follow that no matter what.

Just by being conscious enough to set your long term intention on spiritual development you are already at the beginning stages of man 4.

The starting point of the transition level of man 4 is when you start to care more about what your own inner guidance tell you is true, and less what other people and "the world" insist as being true.

You have seen the craziness of the world of man 1-3 and you have a still developing and fragile inner conscience telling you there is another way, there is more to life than food, work, and sex. Even the exquisite sublimity you feel when exposed to works of art and literature of great truth/beauty is just the beginning...

In fact, you can read and know by heart all the esoteric teachings and all the world literature and still just be at the very beginning stages of man 4, if even that.

The only way to develop the "magnetic center" is to follow your own inner guidance without compromise and don't let anyone or anything lead you astray. If it feels right in your whole body it is right, no matter what the mind (of the little "i's"), your friends, your family, or the rest of world says.

Man 5

Not so many have reached the level of man 5 at this time, but I think this will change a lot in our life time.

Having become man 5, he becomes permanently conscious of his real 'I'

Some years ago I had what you might refer to as a peak experience. When I "came out on the other side" I noticed that my mind was no longer taking me away from the present by drifting into "daydreams" about the past and the future.

To my astonishment I found myself to be permanently and effortlessly present in the moment. This has now lasted and matured for many years.

This is the unshakable center of the Real 'I'.

The mind (feelings and thoughts) is still operating, but I perceive it lined up in front of me and "far away". I can also sit in total silence of the mind for as long as I wish, melting in and out of the blissful "oceanic oneness" of Consciousness.

I perceive this level of man 5 as being on the borderline of what is traditionally known as Enlightenment (man 6) where one becomes permanently identified with the oceanic Consciousness that permeates everything and is beyond time/space/matter.

How to become man 5?

Reading esoteric work and knowing a lot of fancy esoteric words and concepts etc. is OK, but it alone will not get you very far.

My suggestion is that you follow what excites you and when something even more exciting shows up you should not be afraid of letting go of the old to grab onto the new... Trust that life has a plan for your highest evolution, and it guides you by what feels good in your being. So follow that and accept and allow whatever "dust" is shaken up in the process.

I also strongly recommend finding a living teacher at level man 6 or 7, and to partake in a retreat with such a teacher. There are more than enough of them at this time no matter where you live in the world. Just check out "Buddha at the gas Pump" on youtube. He interviews new teachers on a regular basis (and many of them are at the level of man 6/7).

A dead teacher, like Gurdjieff, is a "safe teacher" that cannot shake things up anymore. Being with a real and alive man 6/7 teacher is a whole other experience than reading dusty old books about it.

There is also the "silent transmission" of people at level 6/7 that you cannot get from books. Their vibration is so high that everyone close by is affected by it. If you are receptive you can actually get a long way pretty fast in the presence of this high vibration of the teacher at man 6/7 level.

That was it for me at this time. Take care and have fun! :)
 
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