Has anybody from this forum become man number 4 (or higher)?

Approaching Infinity

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Highfive said:
I am what Mouravieff refer to as man 5 (I guess I should pardon my lack of fake "humility", but such "humility" as expressed by man 1-4 is based on an inferiority complex. When being "bigger/better" than everyone else is no option, one can always pretend and find pleasure in being "the smallest/meekest etc."...

It's not even a matter of humility; it's one of external consideration, i.e., tact. Your lack of it suggests either that you are not "man 5", or as Laura quoted from Gurdjieff, a "man 5" who has skipped a vital part of development.

At the level of man 5 one knows with objective inner certainty that everyone is equal at the core, so the whole game falls away as irrelevant).

No. At a high level, one may see that everyone has the same source (i.e., in an abstract way as one in creation), but the picture of humanity becomes much more complex, individualized, multilevel, and multidimensional. Humanity goes from being seen as homogeneous to extremely varied, but with certain overarching categories (e.g., Gurdjieff's man 1, 2, 3, but with almost infinite variations based on inheritance, biology, education and experience).

Man 4 is not a stable and solid state of being. It's a level of transition from being in the chaos of the thousand little "i's" to starting more and more to listen to your own inner guidance/conscience and follow that no matter what.

Those may be adequate descriptions of the brackets, but what is missing is everything that goes between those brackets: i.e., Work.

Just by being conscious enough to set your long term intention on spiritual development you are already at the beginning stages of man 4.

Again, you're missing the heart of the matter: Work and suffering.

The starting point of the transition level of man 4 is when you start to care more about what your own inner guidance tell you is true, and less what other people and "the world" insist as being true.

Otherwise known as positive maladjustment, independence of thought and judgment. Important, but again, not a sign that development has progressed much beyond the 'embryos' of further growth and development. In fact, most children with developmental potential fit your description.

You have seen the craziness of the world of man 1-3 and you have a still developing and fragile inner conscience telling you there is another way, there is more to life than food, work, and sex. Even the exquisite sublimity you feel when exposed to works of art and literature of great truth/beauty is just the beginning...

You're right about that: it's just the beginning, and barely that.

In fact, you can read and know by heart all the esoteric teachings and all the world literature and still just be at the very beginning stages of man 4, if even that.

You can do the same as man 3.

The only way to develop the "magnetic center" is to follow your own inner guidance without compromise and don't let anyone or anything lead you astray. If it feels right in your whole body it is right, no matter what the mind (of the little "i's"), your friends, your family, or the rest of world says.

This is a very one-sided, one-dimensional view of development. It's missing a lot of things, e.g., consideration of others, thought and feeling for others, remorse, self-awareness, actions taken in conjunction with knowledge gained, and inner struggle. In fact, Just following your inner guidance without compromise, in opposition to the external world is an external conflict. The nature of Work is internal conflict.

Not so many have reached the level of man 5 at this time, but I think this will change a lot in our life time.

Two totally unverifiable and even unknowable propositions.

Some years ago I had what you might refer to as a peak experience. When I "came out on the other side" I noticed that my mind was no longer taking me away from the present by drifting into "daydreams" about the past and the future.

In other words, any crystallization you may have experienced was an 'accident'. Development is not an accident, it is a self-directed, conscious, emotional process.

To my astonishment I found myself to be permanently and effortlessly present in the moment. This has now lasted and matured for many years.

This is the unshakable center of the Real 'I'.

'Fraid not. And even if it was, it would not be enough to differentiate a Goebbels from a Gandhi.

The mind (feelings and thoughts) is still operating, but I perceive it lined up in front of me and "far away". I can also sit in total silence of the mind for as long as I wish, melting in and out of the blissful "oceanic oneness" of Consciousness.

A highly developed person only uses periods of rest like this to prepare for their real calling, which is in this world. You make no mention of this in your post, which suggests to me that your 'spirituality' is of the navel-gazing variety, i.e., spiritual narcissism.

I perceive this level of man 5 as being on the borderline of what is traditionally known as Enlightenment (man 6) where one becomes permanently identified with the oceanic Consciousness that permeates everything and is beyond time/space/matter.

Another fantasy, ignoring the responsibilities required of development.

Reading esoteric work and knowing a lot of fancy esoteric words and concepts etc. is OK, but it alone will not get you very far.

True.

My suggestion is that you follow what excites you and when something even more exciting shows up you should not be afraid of letting go of the old to grab onto the new... Trust that life has a plan for your highest evolution, and it guides you by what feels good in your being. So follow that and accept and allow whatever "dust" is shaken up in the process.

First part is true enough for everyone. Second part is fraught with hazard.

I also strongly recommend finding a living teacher at level man 6 or 7, and to partake in a retreat with such a teacher. There are more than enough of them at this time no matter where you live in the world. Just check out "Buddha at the gas Pump" on youtube. He interviews new teachers on a regular basis (and many of them are at the level of man 6/7).

Says who?

A dead teacher, like Gurdjieff, is a "safe teacher" that cannot shake things up anymore. Being with a real and alive man 6/7 teacher is a whole other experience than reading dusty old books about it.

True enough. But saying it and living it are two different things entirely.

There is also the "silent transmission" of people at level 6/7 that you cannot get from books. Their vibration is so high that everyone close by is affected by it. If you are receptive you can actually get a long way pretty fast in the presence of this high vibration of the teacher at man 6/7 level.

May or may not be true. Doesn't matter. In the end it's useless if one doesn't actually Work on themselves.
 

Approaching Infinity

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Miss.K said:
Is it possible to be equally a mix of 1, 2, and 3?

I'd say possible but unlikely. The motor, emotional, and intellectual aspects are usually weighted more to one (or two) than the others. For example, a person can have a very ordered, logical intellect, but be blind to emotion and lazy (man 3). Or they may be full of energy and enterprise, intelligent, but ruthless (man 1). Or very emotional and sensitive, but not very thoughtful (man 2). Etc.

Keep in mind that the excerpt Laura quoted just looks at man 1, 2, 3 in relation to knowledge. He goes into more detail elsewhere.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
Approaching Infinity said:
Miss.K said:
Is it possible to be equally a mix of 1, 2, and 3?

I'd say possible but unlikely. The motor, emotional, and intellectual aspects are usually weighted more to one (or two) than the others. For example, a person can have a very ordered, logical intellect, but be blind to emotion and lazy (man 3). Or they may be full of energy and enterprise, intelligent, but ruthless (man 1). Or very emotional and sensitive, but not very thoughtful (man 2). Etc.

Keep in mind that the excerpt Laura quoted just looks at man 1, 2, 3 in relation to knowledge. He goes into more detail elsewhere.

Thanks AI, a reread of ISOTM is in order I can see..(several rereads probably)

Which remind me, in case someone is interested, that it can be found as audiobook on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcBRjiRTA_4&list=PLacN4nAmMe4Ipys7WEbX4MQRh2C5GpBLX
(for some people audiobooks are a godsend)
 

Menna

The Living Force
Say the owners put on weekly meetings for people wanting to be clocksmiths. Then a guy comes along every so often and just observes and never says anything. He does this for years.

One day out of the blue he announces that he is a master clocksmith and that what they do in these meetings really isn't up to scratch. He also says its the last time he'll ever speak but he'll still attend as usual, observe and say nothing.

Some people would probably ask him why come at all if its no good? Others might ask him that if he decides to come, why not offer some helpful advice from a master clocksmith, given that he is attending anyway?

They seem like valid questions. I can't answer them as I'm no man number 5 of course, so I wouldn't understand the motivations of such a man.

Perhaps Highfive might be able to answer?

Thats what im saying - plus this person said that this was his final post unless people had additional questions. This is an addition question (why no interest in posting? Why this your final post?) and through these question comes further understanding of this persons motivation giving insight to thinking/reasoning of man number 5 (if this person is).

It would be STS to try and make someone participate that doesn't want to. Through these question we can find out more information in a STO way by not violating this persons free will as said person wrote if there are more additional question he will answer. Obviously I have my doubts about said person being who they say they are however just trying to get the most info out of said person without bashing or trying to convince trying to find out more information based on his parameters that he has set. However given his post I feel that I have scared away a watching bird that I wanted to get a closer look at and I will be surprised if he responds to any of this... :rolleyes: back to life, reading, and growth.
 

whitecoast

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obyvatel said:
I agree with Alkhemist's view above. Highfive is not interested in interaction - so personally I am not interested to either scrutinize his data or justify the methods used in this forum. I am a little surprised Whitecoast that you would go to the extent that you did regarding the latter in your original post.

I agreed with alkhemist also. If what I said was too much of a breach of enclosure then I apologize and will refrain from a repeat. And it is fine if you aren't personally interested in responding, but you seem to be suggesting that I shouldn't be either. I think it's worth remembering that he's not the only person reading replies, and often if one person posts a thought or question odds are there are ten other readers who had the same thought or question but didn't post. That's why I think thoughtfully addressing comments in many cases is a considerate thing to do, even if the original poster isn't receptive or willing to respond again. :)
 

Sol Logos

Dagobah Resident
Laura said:
Clearly, contact with the higher centers would not be described as a "peak experience" as all the ancient literature and the following show:

That makes sense. I suppose too that unless you've been mostly in the troughs, seems unlikely you'd experience and / or define a state of full clarity as a peak. I imagine it's like being dropped by a helicopter on a mountain peak and then seeing yourself as an expert on climbing mountains.
 

SlavaOn

Jedi Master
Hello HighFive.

This little poem describes a 'higher level' person. Do you think he/she could be on a 'number 4' or a 'number 5'?

When I chose to forget, my mind was set free
I unlearnt all the junk that I got from thee
I squashed my wants, got rid of my needs
I battled desires and dueled with greeds

I also stopped doing the mortgage time
The banks got TARP money, I am keeping my dime
The books of law I flushed down the drain
I don't need the shit that these books contain

It is hard to break from a virtual prison
It is useless to beg, there is no one to reason
One needs the courage to oppose the machine
Its powers – enormous, its forces – unseen.

But little by little I achieved my goal
I am totally free, I can't be controlled
I am sorry to say, but the joke is on you
So long, suckers, Good buy and adjeu!

Sincerely,
SlavaOn
 

Henchman 21

Jedi Master
Re: Does anybody from this forum, has became man number 4 (or higher)?

Navigator said:
Hitsu said:
Otherwise it is worrying, since this forum has about 5k users
Code:
563,578 Posts in 33,227 Topics by 5,237 Members. Latest Member: SatampraZeiros
and discusses a lot about 4th way, so I assume some people will start to practice it. Let's say 10% of total number, that's ~1k member.
So 1k members try to become man #4 and if anybody of them HASN'T succeed at that - that's worrying.

Looking for some assurance that this is the right place to be to accomplish it?

How about you ask yourself first whether you want to do The Work and you understand what it takes.

I think qualifying oneself as any particular number can be dangerous in that without proper knowledge and self reflexion no one can diagnose themselves objectively. This being said I imagine that there are probably some on this forum that are at level 4 or higher but I don't think that they are going to come out and say it because ultimately it is not important to associate oneself with a particular status and the purpose of this forum is to facilitate perpetual growth regardless of where someone is on the learning curve.

On a side note, I think that the world we live in is consistently providing us with the tools we need to continue to learn. So I wouldn't worry too much at trying to quantify a success rate because what is really important is that the people on this forum continue to learn about reality and IMO this is certainly happening here.
 

Laura

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Re: Does anybody from this forum, has became man number 4 (or higher)?

Captainmurphy said:
I think qualifying oneself as any particular number can be dangerous in that without proper knowledge and self reflexion no one can diagnose themselves objectively. This being said I imagine that there are probably some on this forum that are at level 4 or higher but I don't think that they are going to come out and say it because ultimately it is not important to associate oneself with a particular status and the purpose of this forum is to facilitate perpetual growth regardless of where someone is on the learning curve.

On a side note, I think that the world we live in is consistently providing us with the tools we need to continue to learn. So I wouldn't worry too much at trying to quantify a success rate because what is really important is that the people on this forum continue to learn about reality and IMO this is certainly happening here.

Well said. Plus the ever present factor that what one has gained CAN BE LOST without constant diligence, awareness, and work. And that includes regular feedback from the network. The "higher" you go, the bigger and meaner the forces are that come against you to knock you back down.
 

HiThere

The Living Force
Interesting thread. I do not believe that it is beneficial or necessary to quantify progress on an individual basis, as this is impossible to measure in an objective way in my opinion. It follows from this that I do not belive that it would be useful to proclaim that one is this or the other, as it is impossbile to measure whether this is for real.
This inevitably boils down to "follow the sandal" scenarios (Life of Brian) every time.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
Hithere said:
Interesting thread. I do not believe that it is beneficial or necessary to quantify progress on an individual basis, as this is impossible to measure in an objective way in my opinion. It follows from this that I do not belive that it would be useful to proclaim that one is this or the other, as it is impossbile to measure whether this is for real.
This inevitably boils down to "follow the sandal" scenarios (Life of Brian) every time.

Yes :)
also I think this Work requires to give up the idea of the goal, as the goal is not where one is so one will not be observing one self then (goal as I mean here is not the same as Aim)
One has to give all, give in advance, and with no guarantee of result, which is strangely not the same as being a naive idiot....
 

Hitsu

Padawan Learner
This thread is very good :)

This answer summarizes a lot of stuff here:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,38050.msg572650.html#msg572650

Quick question to Laura:

How do you remember this all details from In search of the miraculous?
I read this very carefully in 2012 (page by page SLOWLY), but I forgot some stuff that you posted.
Do you use some kind of mnemonic technique etc?

---

General question:

"The knowledge of man number four is a very different kind of knowledge. It is knowledge which comes from man number five, who in turn receives it from man number six, who has received it from man number seven. But, of course, man number four assimilates of this knowledge only what is possible according to his powers. But, in comparison with man number one, man number two, and man number three, man number four has begun to get free from the subjective elements in his knowledge and to move along the path towards objective knowledge.
Cassiopaeans for me are man 7/7+ beings (in terms of knowledge / objectivity / advancement etc), so you could get very valuable informations for man 6/7.
Do you have any thoughts on this statement and above quoted text?
 

Laura

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Hitsu said:
This thread is very good :)

This answer summarizes a lot of stuff here:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,38050.msg572650.html#msg572650

Quick question to Laura:

How do you remember this all details from In search of the miraculous?
I read this very carefully in 2012 (page by page SLOWLY), but I forgot some stuff that you posted.
Do you use some kind of mnemonic technique etc?

As I've mentioned on numerous occasions, I have a terrifying memory. I do NOT know how it works or why I have it, but I do. And I use the word "terrifying" deliberately because it is a huge burden to remember so much. I not only remember pretty much everything I read and experience from early infancy, but after going through several "transformations", I have past life memories on top of everything else. I've mentioned elsewhere that this memory allows me no respite from reality.

So, the thing is, I know, IN ESSENCE, what Gurdjieff has written about and I have his books (and many, many others), in file format which are easy to search for text. I don't read file books, but they are handy to have to find the text you want in an instant so that you can quote it to help others.

The same is true for the Cs transcripts. I can remember the essence of everything they've said (most of the time, age IS having an effect on me!). I have all the sessions indexed by every single word and and can recall the right keyword to find the text I want.

What I often do is use keywords to pull up ALL texts relating to a given topic (Gurdjieff, Cs, Bible, Josephus, Livy, whoever), and paste them into a document which I then print to study the relationships.
---

Hitsu said:
General question:

"The knowledge of man number four is a very different kind of knowledge. It is knowledge which comes from man number five, who in turn receives it from man number six, who has received it from man number seven. But, of course, man number four assimilates of this knowledge only what is possible according to his powers. But, in comparison with man number one, man number two, and man number three, man number four has begun to get free from the subjective elements in his knowledge and to move along the path towards objective knowledge.
Cassiopaeans for me are man 7/7+ beings (in terms of knowledge / objectivity / advancement etc), so you could get very valuable informations for man 6/7.
Do you have any thoughts on this statement and above quoted text?

Yes, I had that thought myself and that does seem to be the way it works. I also think that such as man number six and seven may not continue to exist on our 3D plane. The reason I say this is because notice this:

"The knowledge of man number five is whole, indivisible knowledge. He has now one indivisible I and all his knowledge belongs to this I. He cannot have one I that knows something which another does not know. What he knows, the whole of him knows. His knowledge is nearer to objective knowledge than the knowledge of man number four.

{With the following caveat about man number five}:

"Man number five has already been crystallized; he cannot change as man number one, two, and three change. But it must be noted that man number five can be the result of right work and he can be the result of wrong work. He can become number five from number four and he can become number five without having been four. And in this case he cannot develop further, cannot become number six and seven. In order to become number six he must again melt his crystallized essence, must intentionally lose his being of man number five. And this can be achieved only through terrible sufferings. Fortunately these cases of wrong development occur very rarely.'

{Which suggests that man number five, even though he may crystallize, can still be lacking a great deal even if "all his knowledge belongs to this I." I mentioned several books that describe the nature of the brain and mind that can help to understand the divisions of the mind, the source of the many *I*s of Gurdjieff's descriptions. Probably the best source for grasping this is Steve Mithen's "The Prehistory of the Mind" which is based on some excellent science even if Mithen tries to spin it into his own pet theory about how conciousness "evolved" materially. His presentation of the mind as cathedral is brilliant.

Anyway, obviously, man number five can be "fixed" but very, very wrong, which would confine him to 3D existence as Gurdjieff pointed out: "an immortal thing". But even that immortality would be relative. Moving on to man #6 and #7}:



"The knowledge of man number six is the complete knowledge possible to man; but it can still be lost.

{Again we have a caveat. As I mentioned, "The "higher" you go, the bigger and meaner the forces are that come against you to knock you back down." Constant diligence, care, awareness, and moving forward is required. You cannot sit on your laurels and think that you have something that cannot be taken away. Hubris is a terrible thing. Have a look at Mr. Scott's review of "Hostage to the Devil" posted today for some insight.

Finally we come to}:


"The knowledge of man number seven is his own knowledge, which cannot be taken away from him; it is the objective and completely practiced knowledge of All.

So, yeah, that would be something like the Cs - me/us IN THE FUTURE though certainly we are constantly moving to meet that future/Wave. Notice the word "practiced". That would mean that the knowledge was not just theoretical, it was applied through a long history of acquisition and practice. That reminds me of something the Cs said (there goes the memory bank kicking in!):

31 May 1997 said:
Q: What are consciousness energy directors?

A: Compare yourself to your backyard denizen. How do each of you view calculus?

Q: Well, I don't know exactly what calculus is, but I know it is important. I never thought I was able to learn such things, so I didn't try. But, I think it is important, and someday I will know something about it. I am sure that the dog would not only think it is not useful, he would not even be aware of it. How does that relate to consciousness energy directors?

A: All in nature seeks balance. One day, so to speak, "Percy" will indeed have an opinion of calculus.

Q: Okay, so consciousness energy directors are like a horizontal reality in relation to the perpendicular ones?

A: Slots, my dear, slots.

Q: Are these slots comparable to the appearing and disappearing of electrons in the shells of an atom?

A: Not the point. You are still trying to use 3rd density awareness to measure the reality parameters of all other density levels... Talk about your square peg and your round hole! Tell Arkadiusz to trust in gravity waves to be merely his pathway to higher understanding, not the means to an end.

Q: Now you have mentioned these 'slots.' What are these slots, and how does one move from one slot to another?

A: Picture this: you have 7 sizes of marbles. You have 7 widths of slots. Where do the marbles "fit in."

Q: Do the marbles represent units of consciousness?

A: Close. Or, divisions of consciousness level energy resonance profiles.

Q: Do these divisions of consciousness grow and change?

A: Yes.

Q: And they grow and change through acquiring knowledge, is that correct?

A: Basically.

Q: And acquiring knowledge is akin to acquiring energy? Or light? Light energy?

A: Not exactly. That would be like saying that "filling up" at the gas station is akin to acquiring speed.

Q: So, knowledge and light are like the gas for the car, but speed comes from utilization?

A: Yes.

Q: And utilization means...

A: Knowledge application which generates energy, which, in turn, generates light.

...

Q: Let me back up again. Marbles in slots. What are the slots?

A: An analogy to depict realms for you.

Q: Do the marbles move from one slot to another?

A: When, and only when, they have acquired the proper fit.

Q: Oh. How do they acquire the proper fit?

A: How do you?

Q: I guess you grow?

A: Okay.

Also keep in mind that the Cs have said that density relates to AWARENESS. So it seems that Gurdjieff's man numbers 4, 5, 6, and 7 may also relate to densities. And, as we have learned, densities interpenetrate (critters are 2nd density and we interact with them; they are aware of us to some extent, but not the same way we are aware of them.) So we can assume that man numbers 4, 5 and possibly 6 can still be interacting with us in our reality but we might not be able to be aware of them in the way that they are aware of us. Can they have what we might call "magical powers"? I guess it depends on what you call "magic". I would say that, since they would still be engaged in 3 D reality to some extent, they would not choose to do MUCH in the way of violating conventions. I've studied those who appeared to exhibit such "powers" and, in most cases, they are what I would call "failed magicians" or individuals whose genetics give them abilities that they do not have the brain/mind/being to manage.

As to whether we could identify man number 4, 5, 6... well, notice what Gurdjieff said about their knowledge and being. Perhaps it would be fruitful to take each of them and his description and try to speculate how such an individual might manifest themselves. Heck, for all we know, man number 6 might act like Bozo the clown (I'm being facetious just a bit to make the point that our expectations might be WAAAY off!)
 

Highfive

The Force is Strong With This One
I'm guessing more experienced and inquiring minds will have questions, but for me.......

So man 4 is unstable, on shaky ground looking to begin conscious development and following inner guidance.

How did you recognize your peak experience was it a dream, a moment or event etc doing something you didn't know you could do maybe?

Does man number 5 still feel worry, ambition, confusion, desire or is one just calm and responding to objectivity from that point.

Man 4 is much more of a spectrum than man 5. Man 4 is the very start of the development of the "magnetic center" (what many teachers refer to as "heart") and all the way to the "plateau level" of man 5 in which love has become unconditional and impersonal.

From the perspective of man 5 it's obvious that Shakespeare's masterpiece Hamlet , which has never really been understood for over 400 years, is actually a portrait of a man 4 developing into man 5 (Hamlet returns from the sea voyage mysteriously changed into a man 5 in Act V). All the other characters are the man 1-3 mix and all of them die as a result of their own sell out of their own authenticity.

My peak experience built up over the course of a week. I was at a retreat with a man 7 teacher and every day sitting with him I got stronger and stronger kundalini energy moving up my spine and hitting my brain like waves of pleasure (I had read about this before but didn't really believe it could be so vivid and real).

The day of the actual peak experience I was sitting alone in my cabin meditating and feeling very strong kundalini. The center of my brain (3rd eye or pineal gland) started to vibrate intensely, and I could actually move this vibrating ball wherever I wanted up and down the spine. I remember a candle light flicker was kind of annoying me, and immediately an "energy tentacle" (can't find a better way to describe it) moved out from the top of my head and touched the flame. The flame was totally still after that.

This weirdness went on for about 1 hour, and then I sort of came out of it a totally changed being.

Man 5 does not have ambition because the trust in life's plan and way is total.There is no need to want anything else. Yes, man 5 can still feel worry if a situation looks dire because that's a natural response of the ego/mind. However, he will not be overwhelmed by worry and feelings are perceived as signs of whatever belief is still held unconsciously as to generate that feeling. Man 5 will never be possessed or consumed by any emotion because all emotions are perceived "in front of him". There is always and option to "play out the emotion" if it serves the situation, or just let it pass.

Man 5 is still human, and I believe man 6/7 also does not escape that. The 7 levels of man correspond to the 7 chakras of eastern teachings. Many people only function from the 3 lower chakras. The heart is in the middle (4th chakra) and needs to be opened/activated for the energy to go even higher and activate the top chakras.

I will get back to the rest of the questions/comments soon...
 

Highfive

The Force is Strong With This One
Menna said:
Why would someone who is man number 5 not want to help out others who want to evolve?

This is why I responded to the OP (not "organic portal" but "original poster" :), and as a I said I will answer questions regarding this on this thread. But I will not limit myself to this forum and I have other "real life" activities to attend to also.
 
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