Has anybody from this forum become man number 4 (or higher)?

mrelectric91

Padawan Learner
Highfive said:
Good day,

I have been visiting this forum (and many others) from time to time, and I think the OP has good, heartfelt, and intelligent questions regarding an important subject. This is what inspired my response. I have no interest in being a regular poster here, so unless there are additional questions this will be both my introduction post and my final post.

I am what Mouravieff refer to as man 5 (I guess I should pardon my lack of fake "humility", but such "humility" as expressed by man 1-4 is based on an inferiority complex. When being "bigger/better" than everyone else is no option, one can always pretend and find pleasure in being "the smallest/meekest etc."... At the level of man 5 one knows with objective inner certainty that everyone is equal at the core, so the whole game falls away as irrelevant).

Before discussing this further let's sum up the levels of man with a quote from Mouravieff:

Men 1, 2 or 3, driven by the energy of the sexual center freely flowing through
the three centers, make do with the provisional 'I' of the Personality, an
unstable 'I'; changing; illogical with himself; leading a factitious existence.
The situation is completely reversed when —crossing the stage of man 4
successfully — the dedicated searcher becomes an interior man: 5, then 6 and
finally 7:

— Having become man 5, he becomes permanently conscious of his real 'I'
— Having become man 6, he attains permanent Consciousness;
— Having become man 7, he is liberated by obtaining a true Will.

The way I see it most people interested in self growth, spirituality, or "the work" as you call it here are somewhere in the sub-levels of man 4.

Man 4 is not a stable and solid state of being. It's a level of transition from being in the chaos of the thousand little "i's" to starting more and more to listen to your own inner guidance/conscience and follow that no matter what.

Just by being conscious enough to set your long term intention on spiritual development you are already at the beginning stages of man 4.

The starting point of the transition level of man 4 is when you start to care more about what your own inner guidance tell you is true, and less what other people and "the world" insist as being true.

You have seen the craziness of the world of man 1-3 and you have a still developing and fragile inner conscience telling you there is another way, there is more to life than food, work, and sex. Even the exquisite sublimity you feel when exposed to works of art and literature of great truth/beauty is just the beginning...

In fact, you can read and know by heart all the esoteric teachings and all the world literature and still just be at the very beginning stages of man 4, if even that.

The only way to develop the "magnetic center" is to follow your own inner guidance without compromise and don't let anyone or anything lead you astray. If it feels right in your whole body it is right, no matter what the mind (of the little "i's"), your friends, your family, or the rest of world says.

Man 5

Not so many have reached the level of man 5 at this time, but I think this will change a lot in our life time.

Having become man 5, he becomes permanently conscious of his real 'I'

Some years ago I had what you might refer to as a peak experience. When I "came out on the other side" I noticed that my mind was no longer taking me away from the present by drifting into "daydreams" about the past and the future.

To my astonishment I found myself to be permanently and effortlessly present in the moment. This has now lasted and matured for many years.

This is the unshakable center of the Real 'I'.

The mind (feelings and thoughts) is still operating, but I perceive it lined up in front of me and "far away". I can also sit in total silence of the mind for as long as I wish, melting in and out of the blissful "oceanic oneness" of Consciousness.

I perceive this level of man 5 as being on the borderline of what is traditionally known as Enlightenment (man 6) where one becomes permanently identified with the oceanic Consciousness that permeates everything and is beyond time/space/matter.

How to become man 5?

Reading esoteric work and knowing a lot of fancy esoteric words and concepts etc. is OK, but it alone will not get you very far.

My suggestion is that you follow what excites you and when something even more exciting shows up you should not be afraid of letting go of the old to grab onto the new... Trust that life has a plan for your highest evolution, and it guides you by what feels good in your being. So follow that and accept and allow whatever "dust" is shaken up in the process.

I also strongly recommend finding a living teacher at level man 6 or 7, and to partake in a retreat with such a teacher. There are more than enough of them at this time no matter where you live in the world. Just check out "Buddha at the gas Pump" on youtube. He interviews new teachers on a regular basis (and many of them are at the level of man 6/7).

A dead teacher, like Gurdjieff, is a "safe teacher" that cannot shake things up anymore. Being with a real and alive man 6/7 teacher is a whole other experience than reading dusty old books about it.

There is also the "silent transmission" of people at level 6/7 that you cannot get from books. Their vibration is so high that everyone close by is affected by it. If you are receptive you can actually get a long way pretty fast in the presence of this high vibration of the teacher at man 6/7 level.

That was it for me at this time. Take care and have fun! :)

I'm guessing more experienced and inquiring minds will have questions, but for me.......

So man 4 is unstable, on shaky ground looking to begin conscious development and following inner guidance.

How did you recognize your peak experience was it a dream, a moment or event etc doing something you didn't know you could do maybe?

Does man number 5 still feel worry, ambition, confusion, desire or is one just calm and responding to objectivity from that point.
 

Menna

The Living Force
Why would someone who is man number 5 not want to help out others who want to evolve?
 

Hitsu

Padawan Learner
Thanks for answering @Highfive. :)

I will definitely check Buddha at the gas pump more.
Some of this people may be legit :), but some of them are from Osho
_https://batgap.com/category/traditons/osho/

I heard soo many negative comments about him. Just check Wikipedia:
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh#Criticism

So there is a possibility, that not everybody is 'legit, but as you mentioned many are.
I also strongly recommend finding a living teacher at level man 6 or 7, and to partake in a retreat with such a teacher. There are more than enough of them at this time no matter where you live in the world. Just check out "Buddha at the gas Pump" on youtube. He interviews new teachers on a regular basis (and many of them are at the level of man 6/7).

Weird thing, is that I don't see people that became enlightenment himself using 4th way system... (0 matches)
_http://www.google.pl/search?q=site:https://batgap.com+%22fourth+way%22+OR+%224th+way%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=T0xBVbuVGsGsswHPkoGYAw

Buddhism dominates (185 matches):
_http://www.google.pl/search?q=site:https://batgap.com+buddhism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=kkpBVf6zD4ebsgHm8oCYBw

But, this may be related to the fact THAT 4th way is REALLY a niche, so less people are practice this -> less amount of enlightened persons.
And Buddhism is pretty much mainstream.


Plus, I will have to think more, since I am living in Poland and I don't see any teachers residing in Poland.

-------

Anyway, I got a couple of questions. :)

1. Do you developed 'magnetic center' alone? Or maybe with help of the teacher in real life (not internet)?
If it was with teacher: which type of teacher? legit 4th way? Buddhism? Yoga? something else?
Does it even matter? G. suggested that various paths have 'different' speed... (fakir - slowest, 4th way - fastest, but hard to 'grok')

2. I guess you recommendation to find a teacher (man 6/7) is for those who are on ANY level, right?
I just have a feeling that alone, I won't be able to do something meaningful... I need a group, I group in real life, NOT in Internet.
 

Hitsu

Padawan Learner
Dang, I can't edit a post
It should be
Yoga dominates
http://www.google.pl/search?q=site:https://batgap.com+yoga&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=slFBVcEZjfY78cGA-Ag


Menna said:
Why would someone who is man number 5 not want to help out others who want to evolve?

Highfive wrote:
Highfive said:
I have no interest in being a regular poster here, so unless there are additional questions this will be both my introduction post and my final post.
I understand this as:
- I have no interest in being a regular poster here
- BUT I will answer more questions in this topic (which I think is important).

Plus we don't know, if he is already helping other peoples in real life or not.
You are making a assumption
> not want to help out others who want to evolve?
 

Menna

The Living Force
I have no interest in being a regular poster here, so unless there are additional questions this will be both my introduction post and my final post
.

I understand this as:
- I have no interest in being a regular poster here
- BUT I will answer more questions in this topic (which I think is important).

Plus we don't know, if he is already helping other peoples in real life or not.
You are making a assumption
> not want to help out others who want to evolve?

In looking at the Facts and not assuming my thinking was.

1) This is a forum with a section called "The Work" where people post questions, comments for the goal of working for advancement.

2) this person has advanced and if so can help others through sharing knowledge/experience

3) This person said he has no interest in being a "regular" poster that this will be the final post.

With those three facts came my question why not help? Why no interest? Why no want to help here? Why the absolutes like no interest and final post? Regardless (and now this is a true assumption) if he is helping others elsewhere why not help out in a place where people by are asking for help?

I ask this question not to assume or put down or anything negative but purely as a question. I don't think I am man number 5 so I wanted to ask a man number 5 a question based on something he said that I don't understand.

Why would this person have no interest in being a regular/semi regular or what have you poster. Why the absolute statement there? By answering this question it would help me understand.
 

Sol Logos

Dagobah Resident
Hitsu said:
Plus we don't know, if he is already helping other peoples in real life or not.
You are making a assumption
> not want to help out others who want to evolve?

If you say that, wouldn't the prior assumption need to be that a guy saying I'm enlightened (or almost) on an internet forum, actually is?

One way to determine those kind of claims (here) is by observing a number interactions, but Highfive has little intention of interacting. So we have a claim that could be true or could be BS and not much else.

In any case the concept of a sudden illumination via a peak experience, saying he's stepping back and noticing his thoughts and emotions from "far away" etc. - just look like red flags to me. Maybe he is "far away" and someone / something else is taking the helm and doesn't want to interact in case of discovery - it's a possibility, isn't it?
 

whitecoast

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thanks for stopping by HighFive.


Reading esoteric work and knowing a lot of fancy esoteric words and concepts etc. is OK, but it alone will not get you very far.

My suggestion is that you follow what excites you and when something even more exciting shows up you should not be afraid of letting go of the old to grab onto the new... Trust that life has a plan for your highest evolution, and it guides you by what feels good in your being. So follow that and accept and allow whatever "dust" is shaken up in the process.

I also strongly recommend finding a living teacher at level man 6 or 7, and to partake in a retreat with such a teacher. There are more than enough of them at this time no matter where you live in the world. Just check out "Buddha at the gas Pump" on youtube. He interviews new teachers on a regular basis (and many of them are at the level of man 6/7).

A dead teacher, like Gurdjieff, is a "safe teacher" that cannot shake things up anymore. Being with a real and alive man 6/7 teacher is a whole other experience than reading dusty old books about it.

There is also the "silent transmission" of people at level 6/7 that you cannot get from books. Their vibration is so high that everyone close by is affected by it. If you are receptive you can actually get a long way pretty fast in the presence of this high vibration of the teacher at man 6/7 level.


I would say the main teacher in this group is the network itself and the Cassiopaeans. Gurdjieff offers a lot of valuable psychological insight, especially in the context of dealing with and forming esoteric groups to perpetuate/disseminate wisdom, but obviously is not the teacher for the reason of him being dead. Networking in a forum environment as an esoteric school obviously has limitations such as those you described a la "silent transmission". Knowledge can be spread through the internet very easily... the teaching of being not so much, unless you get to know people very well over a number of years. Even then it still pales in comparison to personal interactions in a group environment.
(mod edit: deleted sentence)

[quote author=Hitsu]Anyway, I got a couple of questions.
smiley.gif


1. Do you developed 'magnetic center' alone? Or maybe with help of the teacher in real life (not internet)?
If it was with teacher: which type of teacher? legit 4th way? Buddhism? Yoga? something else?
Does it even matter? G. suggested that various paths have 'different' speed... (fakir - slowest, 4th way - fastest, but hard to 'grok')

2. I guess you recommendation to find a teacher (man 6/7) is for those who are on ANY level, right?[/quote]



1. magnetic centers are developed in ordinary life, as one gradually learns to sift B from A influences and develop an overall direction of development. Once one becomes fully formed, the person is drawn more decisively toward a teacher, school or network through which they can advance further.


2. Typically what is required is for someone to be taught with or learn from someone who's on the step ahead of you. By bringing you to their step, they free themselves to move on to the next step karmically. If the distance in understanding is too vast (say, Jesus teaching a tramp how to be an Apostle), I think that puts too much karmic strain/import on the lesson learning, which isn't necessarily healthy for both parties. Obviously the wise will work with whatever conditions fate has brought them, but still.


I just have a feeling that alone, I won't be able to do something meaningful... I need a group, I group in real life, NOT in Internet.


I share that feeling sometimes also, for the reasons I mentioned above with HighFive re: online interactions only.
(mod edit: deleted sentence)


[quote author=alkhemist]If you say that, wouldn't the prior assumption need to be that a guy saying I'm enlightened (or almost) on an internet forum, actually is?

One way to determine those kind of claims (here) is by observing a number interactions, but Highfive has little intention of interacting. So we have a claim that could be true or could be BS and not much else.[/quote]


True, but regardless of whether he claimed to be man 5 or not what he does say is still subject to the regular scrutiny. Data's data. :P
 

obyvatel

The Living Force
whitecoast said:
[quote author=alkhemist]If you say that, wouldn't the prior assumption need to be that a guy saying I'm enlightened (or almost) on an internet forum, actually is?

One way to determine those kind of claims (here) is by observing a number interactions, but Highfive has little intention of interacting. So we have a claim that could be true or could be BS and not much else.


True, but regardless of whether he claimed to be man 5 or not what he does say is still subject to the regular scrutiny. Data's data. :P
[/quote]

I agree with Alkhemist's view above. Highfive is not interested in interaction - so personally I am not interested to either scrutinize his data or justify the methods used in this forum. I am a little surprised Whitecoast that you would go to the extent that you did regarding the latter in your original post.
 
S

seeks

Guest
hello all,

I hope everyone is having a good day.

Thanks for the advice and suggestions HighFive.

What meditation do you do?

Also what exercises and thoughts can we do to raise our vibration and also to have more energy also? Thanks.

Take care and have Fun also :)
 

Sol Logos

Dagobah Resident
obyvatel said:
whitecoast said:
[quote author=alkhemist]If you say that, wouldn't the prior assumption need to be that a guy saying I'm enlightened (or almost) on an internet forum, actually is?

One way to determine those kind of claims (here) is by observing a number interactions, but Highfive has little intention of interacting. So we have a claim that could be true or could be BS and not much else.


True, but regardless of whether he claimed to be man 5 or not what he does say is still subject to the regular scrutiny. Data's data. :P

I agree with Alkhemist's view above. Highfive is not interested in interaction - so personally I am not interested to either scrutinize his data or justify the methods used in this forum. I am a little surprised Whitecoast that you would go to the extent that you did regarding the latter in your original post.
[/quote]

Well for me at least it seems odd, but I wouldn't know, I'm not so familiar with Mouravieff.

But if I imagine for example this forum was a home that hosts meetups for a particular type of discipline, I can't understand the behaviour. Say the owners put on weekly meetings for people wanting to be clocksmiths. Then a guy comes along every so often and just observes and never says anything. He does this for years.

One day out of the blue he announces that he is a master clocksmith and that what they do in these meetings really isn't up to scratch. He also says its the last time he'll ever speak but he'll still attend as usual, observe and say nothing.

Some people would probably ask him why come at all if its no good? Others might ask him that if he decides to come, why not offer some helpful advice from a master clocksmith, given that he is attending anyway?

They seem like valid questions. I can't answer them as I'm no man number 5 of course, so I wouldn't understand the motivations of such a man.

Perhaps Highfive might be able to answer?
 

Mr. Premise

The Living Force
alkhemst said:
Hitsu said:
Plus we don't know, if he is already helping other peoples in real life or not.
You are making a assumption
> not want to help out others who want to evolve?

If you say that, wouldn't the prior assumption need to be that a guy saying I'm enlightened (or almost) on an internet forum, actually is?

One way to determine those kind of claims (here) is by observing a number interactions, but Highfive has little intention of interacting. So we have a claim that could be true or could be BS and not much else.

In any case the concept of a sudden illumination via a peak experience, saying he's stepping back and noticing his thoughts and emotions from "far away" etc. - just look like red flags to me. Maybe he is "far away" and someone / something else is taking the helm and doesn't want to interact in case of discovery - it's a possibility, isn't it?
Not to mention that these "peak experiences" these types have are often drug induced. If not, then they can result from questionable meditation techniques.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
Mr. Premise said:
alkhemst said:
In any case the concept of a sudden illumination via a peak experience, saying he's stepping back and noticing his thoughts and emotions from "far away" etc. - just look like red flags to me. Maybe he is "far away" and someone / something else is taking the helm and doesn't want to interact in case of discovery - it's a possibility, isn't it?
Not to mention that these "peak experiences" these types have are often drug induced. If not, then they can result from questionable meditation techniques.
I would also guess that even with "peak experiences" of a kind that really bring some understanding, that the knowledge gained might easily get corrupted by ego, unless one is networking with people who are aware of such traps..
 

Psalehesost

The Living Force
Miss.K said:
I would also guess that even with "peak experiences" of a kind that really bring some understanding, that the knowledge gained might easily get corrupted by ego, unless one is networking with people who are aware of such traps..
Gurdjieff also more or less discusses "peak experiences", when mentioning people briefly getting in touch with their higher centers (higher self) before having sorted out the basic, lower stuff in their "machine".

When the machine is a mess and a person hasn't done the work to really become more conscious on a permanent basis, then anything "higher" which is received will be filtered through the lower. Maybe some understanding can be retained, but it will be like having caught a blurry, distorted glimpse through a dirty, warped glass. Gurdjieff even said that people who hadn't had any great mystic/escstatic experiences prematurely were lucky! I guess that's because when it happens, it's likely to simply cause even more confusion than before.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Psalehesost said:
Gurdjieff also more or less discusses "peak experiences", when mentioning people briefly getting in touch with their higher centers (higher self) before having sorted out the basic, lower stuff in their "machine".

When the machine is a mess and a person hasn't done the work to really become more conscious on a permanent basis, then anything "higher" which is received will be filtered through the lower. Maybe some understanding can be retained, but it will be like having caught a blurry, distorted glimpse through a dirty, warped glass. Gurdjieff even said that people who hadn't had any great mystic/escstatic experiences prematurely were lucky! I guess that's because when it happens, it's likely to simply cause even more confusion than before.

Ibn al'Arabi discusses the differences between "states" and "Stations". A state is a temporary "descent" and a station is when the individual has adjusted to regular "descents" and become able to handle the higher state of being in a more permanent way.

State -> station would correspond to periodic vs permanent seating of the higher emotional center.

There are all sorts of claims made by all sorts of people; enlightenment, etc. But what are the proofs offered? What kind of proofs should be required, if any?

So, let's review what Gurdjieff had to say about the matter.


"Once again let us take the idea man. In the language of which I speak, instead of the word 'man,' seven words are used, namely: man number one, man number two, man number three, man number four, man number five, man number six, and man number seven. With these seven ideas people are already able to understand one another when speaking of man.

"Man number seven means a man who has reached the full development possible to man and who possesses everything a man can possess, that is, will, consciousness, permanent and unchangeable I, individuality, immortality, and many other properties which, in our blindness and ignorance, we ascribe to ourselves. It is only when to a certain extent we understand man number seven and his properties that we can understand the gradual stages through which we can approach him, that is, understand the process of development possible for us.

"Man number six stands very close to man number seven. He differs from man number seven only by the fact that some of his properties have not as yet become permanent.

"Man number five is also for us an unattainable standard of man, for it is a man who has reached unity.

"Man number four is an intermediate stage. I shall speak of him later.

"Man number one, number two, and number three, these are people who constitute mechanical humanity on the same level on which they are born.

"Man number one means man in whom the center of gravity of his psychic life lies in the moving center. This is the man of the physical body, the man with whom the moving and the instinctive functions constantly outweigh the emotional and the thinking functions.

"Man number two means man on the same level of development, but man in whom the center of gravity of his psychic life lies in the emotional center, that is, man with whom the emotional functions outweigh all others; the man of feeling, the emotional man.

"Man number three means man on the same level of development but man in whom the center of gravity of his psychic life lies in the intellectual center, that is, man with whom the thinking functions gain the upper hand over the moving, instinctive, and emotional functions; the man of reason, who goes into everything from theories, from mental considerations.

"Every man is born number one, number two, or number three.

"Man number four is not born ready-made. He is born one, two, or three, and becomes four only as a result of efforts of a definite character. Man number four is always the product of school work. He can neither be born, nor develop accidentally or as the result of ordinary influences of bringing up, education, and so on. Man number four already stands on a different level to man number one, two, and three; he has a permanent center of gravity which consists in his ideas, in his valuation of the work, and in his relation to the school. In addition his psychic centers have already begun to be balanced; one center in him cannot have such a preponderance over others as is the case with people of the first three categories. He already begins to know himself and begins to know whither he is going.

"Man number five has already been crystallized; he cannot change as man number one, two, and three change. But it must be noted that man number five can be the result of right work and he can be the result of wrong work. He can become number five from number four and he can become number five without having been four. And in this case he cannot develop further, cannot become number six and seven. In order to become number six he must again melt his crystallized essence, must intentionally lose his being of man number five. And this can be achieved only through terrible sufferings. Fortunately these cases of wrong development occur very rarely.'


Our recent "man number five" visitor sounds like one of this ilk. In another section, Gurdjieff discusses the problem of crystallizing on a wrong foundation a bit more and it is quite instructive.

"Fusion, inner unity, is obtained by means of 'friction,' by the struggle between 'yes' and 'no' in man. If a man lives without inner struggle, if everything happens in him without opposition, if he goes wherever he is drawn or wherever the wind blows, he will remain such as he is. {A "peak experience" is often described in this way, so it is unlikely to be a process of fusion.}

But if a struggle begins in him, and particularly if there is a definite line in this struggle, then, gradually, permanent traits begin to form themselves, he begins to 'crystallize.' But crystallization is possible on a right foundation and it is possible on a wrong foundation. 'Friction,' the struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' can easily take place on a wrong foundation. For instance, a fanatical belief in some or other idea, or the 'fear of sin,' can evoke a terribly intense struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' and a man may crystallize on these foundations. But this would be a wrong, incomplete crystallization. Such a man will not possess the possibility of further development. In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering.

"Crystallization is possible on any foundation. Take for example a brigand, a really good, genuine brigand. I knew such brigands in the Caucasus. He will stand with a rifle behind a stone by the roadside for eight hours without stirring. Could you do this? All the time, mind you, a struggle is going on in him. He is thirsty and hot, and flies are biting him; but he stands still. Another is a monk; he is afraid of the devil; all night long he beats his head on the floor and prays. Thus crystallization is achieved. In such ways people can generate in themselves an enormous inner strength; they can endure torture; they can get what they want. This means that there is now in them something solid, something permanent. Such people can become immortal. But what is the good of it? A man of this kind becomes an 'immortal thing,' although a certain amount of consciousness is sometimes preserved in him. But even this, it must be remembered, occurs very rarely."

Returning to the categories of man:

"The division of man into seven categories, or seven numbers, explains thousands of things which otherwise cannot be understood. This division gives the first conception of relativity as applied to man. Things may be one thing or another thing according to the kind of man from whose point of view, or in relation to whom, they are taken.

"In accordance with this, all the inner and all the outer manifestations of man, all that belongs to man, and all that is created by him, is also divided into seven categories.

{Pay attention to the following because these are useful constructs for figuring out whether a person is man number one, two, or three in his basic make-up.}

"It can now be said that there exists a knowledge number one, based upon imitation or upon instincts, or learned by heart, crammed or drilled into a man. Number one, if he is man number one in the full sense of the term, learns everything like a parrot or a monkey.

"The knowledge of man number two is merely the knowledge of what he likes; what he does not like he does not know. Always and in everything he wants something pleasant. Or, if he is a sick man, he will, on the contrary, know only what he dislikes, what repels him and what evokes in him fear, horror, and loathing.

"The knowledge of man number three is knowledge based upon subjectively logical thinking, upon words, upon literal understanding. It is the knowledge of bookworms, of scholastics. Men number three, for example, have counted how many times each letter of the Arabic alphabet is repeated in the Koran of Mohammed, and upon this have based a whole system of interpretation of the. Koran.

"The knowledge of man number four is a very different kind of knowledge. It is knowledge which comes from man number five, who in turn receives it from man number six, who has received it from man number seven. But, of course, man number four assimilates of this knowledge only what is possible according to his powers. But, in comparison with man number one, man number two, and man number three, man number four has begun to get free from the subjective elements in his knowledge and to move along the path towards objective knowledge.

"The knowledge of man number five is whole, indivisible knowledge. He has now one indivisible I and all his knowledge belongs to this I. He cannot have one I that knows something which another does not know. What he knows, the whole of him knows. His knowledge is nearer to objective knowledge than the knowledge of man number four.

{For a good conceptual understanding of what this can mean, three books read in succession (in any order) can help: "The Myth of Sanity," "Strangers to Ourselves" and "The Prehistory of the Mind."}

"The knowledge of man number six is the complete knowledge possible to man; but it can still be lost.

"The knowledge of man number seven is his own knowledge, which cannot be taken away from him; it is the objective and completely practiced knowledge of All.

"It is exactly the same with being. There is the being of man number one, that is, the being of a man living by his instincts and his sensations; the being of man number two, that is to say, the being of the sentimental, the emotional man; the being of man number three, that is, the being of the rational, the theoretical man, and so on.

It is quite clear why knowledge cannot be far away from being. Man number one, two, or three cannot, by reason of his being, possess the knowledge of man number four, man number five, and higher. Whatever you may give him, he may interpret it in his own way, he will reduce every idea to the level on which he is himself.

"The same order of division into seven categories must be applied to everything relating to man.

There is art number one, that is the art of man number one, imitative, copying art, or crudely primitive and sensuous art such as the dances and music of savage peoples.

There is art number two, sentimental art; art number three, intellectual, invented art; and there must be art number four, number five, and so on.

"In exactly the same way there exists the religion of man number one, that is to say, a religion consisting of rites, of external forms, of sacrifices and ceremonies of imposing splendor and brilliance, or, on the contrary, of a gloomy, cruel, and savage character, and so on.

There is the religion of man number two; the religion of faith, love, adoration, impulse, enthusiasm, which soon becomes transformed into the religion of persecution, oppression, and extermination of 'heretics' and 'heathens.'

There is the religion of man number three; the intellectual, theoretical religion of proofs and arguments, based upon logical deductions, considerations, and interpretations.

Religions number one, number two, and number three are really the only ones we know; all known and existing religions and denominations in the world belong to one of these three categories. What the religion of man number four or the religion of man number five and so on is, we do not know, and we cannot know so long as we remain what we are.
[...]

"Science, philosophy, and all manifestations of man's life and activity can be divided in exactly the same way into seven categories. But the ordinary language in which people speak is very far from any such divisions, and this is why it is so difficult for people to understand one another.

"In analyzing the various subjective meanings of the word 'man' we have seen how varied and contradictory, and, above all, how concealed and unnoticeable even to the speaker. himself are the meanings and the shades of meaning created by habitual associations that can be put into a word.

Now, let's look at some technical details. Gurdjieff talks about hydrogens and octaves and notes. Don't worry about that too much.

"The study of the work of the human organism as a chemical factory shows us three stages in the evolution of the human machine.

"The first stage refers to the work of the human organism as it has been created by nature, that is to say, to the life and functions of man number one, number two, and number three. The first octave, that is, the octave of food, develops in a normal way to mi 192. At this point it automatically receives a 'shock' from the beginning of the second octave, and its development goes on consecutively to si 12. The second octave, that is, the air octave, begins with do 192 and develops to mi 48 where it stops. The third octave, that is, the octave of impressions, begins with do 48 and stops there. Thus seven notes of the first octave, three notes of the second, and one note of the third octave represent a complete picture of the work of the 'human factory' in its first or natural stage.

Nature has provided only one 'shock,' that is, the 'shock' received from the entrance of the second octave which helps mi of the first octave to pass to fa. But nature did not foresee and did not provide for the second 'shock,' that is, the 'shock' that would help the development of the third octave and thereby enable mi of the second octave to pass to fa. A man must create this 'shock' by his own personal efforts if he desires to increase the output of the fine hydrogens in his organism.

"The second stage refers to the work of the human organism when a man creates a conscious volitional 'shock' at the point do 48. In the first place this volitional 'shock' is transmitted to the second octave which develops as far as sol 12, or even further up to la 6 and so on, if the work of the organism is sufficiently intense. The same 'shock' also enables the third octave to develop, that is, the octave of impressions which in this event reaches mi 12. Thus in the second stage of the work of the human organism, we see the full development of the second octave and three notes of the third octave. The first octave has stopped at the note si 12, the third at the note mi 12. Neither of these octaves can proceed any further without a fresh 'shock.' The nature of this second 'shock' cannot be so easily described as the nature of the first volitional 'shock' at do 48. In order to understand the nature of this 'shock' it is necessary to understand the meaning of si 12 and mi 12.

"The effort which creates this 'shock' must consist in work on the emotions, in the transformation and transmutation of the emotions. This transmutation of the emotions will then help the transmutation of si 12 in the human organism. No serious growth, that is, no growth of higher bodies within the organism, is possible without this transmutation. The idea of this transmutation was known to many ancient teachings as well as to some comparatively recent ones, such as the alchemy of the Middle Ages. But the alchemists spoke of this transmutation in the allegorical forms of the transformation of base metals into precious ones. In reality, however, they meant the transformation of coarse 'hydrogens' into finer ones in the human organism, chiefly of the transformation of mi 12.

If this transformation is attained, a man can be said to have 'achieved what he was striving for, and it can also be said that, until this transformation is attained, all results attained by a man can be lost because they are not fixed in him in any way; moreover, they are attained only in the spheres of thought and emotion. Real, objective results can be obtained only after the transmutation of mi 12 has begun.

"Alchemists who spoke of this transmutation began directly with it. They knew nothing, or at least they said nothing, about the nature of the first volitional 'shock.' It is upon this, however, that the whole thing depends. The second volitional 'shock' and transmutation become physically possible only after long practice on the first volitional 'shock,' which consists in self-remembering, and in observing the impressions received.

On the way of the monk and on the way of the fakir work on the second 'shock' begins before work on the first 'shock,' but as mi 12 is created only as a result of the first 'shock,' work, in the absence of other material, has of necessity to be concentrated on si 12, and it very often gives quite wrong results. Right development on the fourth way must begin with the first volitional 'shock' and then pass on to the second 'shock' at mi 12.

"The third stage in the work of the human organism begins when man creates in himself a conscious second volitional 'shock' at the point mi 12, when the transformation or transmutation of these 'hydrogens' into higher 'hydrogens' begins in him. The second stage and the beginning of the third stage refer to the life and functions of man number four. A fairly considerable period of. transmutation and crystallization is needed for the transition of man number four to the level of man number five.

Clearly, contact with the higher centers would not be described as a "peak experience" as all the ancient literature and the following show:


"If we could connect the centers of our ordinary consciousness with the higher thinking center deliberately and at will, it would be of no use to us whatever in our present general state. In most cases where accidental contact with the higher thinking center takes place a man becomes unconscious. The mind refuses to take in the flood of thoughts, emotions, images, and ideas which suddenly burst into it. And instead of a vivid thought, or a vivid emotion, there results, on the contrary, a complete blank, a state of unconsciousness. The memory retains only the first moment when the flood rushed in on the mind and the last moment when the flood was receding and consciousness returned. But even these moments are so full of unusual shades and colors that there is nothing with which to compare them among the ordinary sensations of life. This is usually all that remains from so-called 'mystical' and 'ecstatic' experiences, which represent a temporary connection with a higher center.

Only very seldom does it happen that a mind which has been better prepared succeeds in grasping and remembering something of what was felt and understood at the moment of ecstasy. But even in these cases the thinking, the moving, and the emotional centers remember and transmit everything in their own way, translate absolutely new and never previously experienced sensations into the language of usual everyday sensations, transmit in worldly three-dimensional forms things which pass completely beyond the limits of worldly measurements; in this way, of course, they entirely distort every trace of what remains in the memory of these unusual experiences. Our ordinary centers, in transmitting the impressions of the higher centers, may be compared to a blind man speaking of colors, or to a deaf man speaking of music.

"In order to obtain a correct and permanent connection between the lower and the higher centers, it is necessary to regulate and quicken the work of the lower centers. "Moreover, as has been already said, lower centers work in a wrong
way, for very often, instead of their own proper functions, one or another of them takes upon itself the work of other centers. This considerably reduces the speed of the general work of the machine and makes acceleration of the work of the centers very difficult. Thus in order to regulate and accelerate the work of the lower centers, the primary object must consist in freeing each center from work foreign and unnatural to it, and in bringing it back to its own work which it can do better than any other center.

"All that has been said before about work on oneself, about the formation of inner unity and of the transition from the level of man number one, number two, and number three to the level of man number four and further, pursues one and the same aim. What is called according to one terminology the 'astral body,' is called in another terminology the 'higher emotional center,' although the difference here does not lie in the terminology alone. These are, to speak more correctly, different aspects of the next stage of man's evolution. It can be said that the 'astral body' is necessary for the complete and proper functioning of the 'higher emotional center' in unison with the lower. Or it can be said that the 'higher emotional center' is necessary for the work of the 'astral body.'

"The 'mental body' corresponds to the 'higher thinking center.' It would be wrong to say that they are one and the same thing. But one requires the other, one cannot exist without the other, one is the expression of certain sides and functions of the other.

"The fourth body requires the complete and harmonious working of all centers; and it implies, or is the expression of, complete control over this working.

Enough for now.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
Thank you for putting that together Laura, much appreciated!

As I understand it (might be misinterpreting) it means that a lot of people in this group are nr. 4, and those if, any, that have gotten all their I's to agree would be 5 or 6, and those that are 7 would be 4D?

Is it possible to be equally a mix of 1, 2, and 3?
-I can recognize parts of myself in each, but not really pick one over the others, and I can recognize myself best in number 4, but if I'm 1, 2, or 3 I could easily misinterpret, and so I wouldn't know..
 
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