Has anybody from this forum become man number 4 (or higher)?

[sitting]

I don't think that passive suffering and not trying to figure out solutions is what the cosmos has in mind for me. I don't think trying to figure out objective solutions for the suffering of the world is the same as having a different idea of how things should progress than the Cosmos has in mind for us.

Hi Miss.K

I think your ambivalence is well placed and well stated. It's a question all seekers ask.
And I believe it was purposefully designed that way. According to C's.

If in the first place "all is lessons," the pain and suffering are than simply exams. You came for the lessons, you don't leave without them. And only after earning a passing grade.

And lets not forget wealth & fame are lessons as well, not just illness & poverty. As crazy as it may sound, Warren Buffett too is undergoing his set of lessons right now. And it may not simply be ice cream & diet cokes (or $'s) either! Even Caesar had his lessons. And Buffett is no Caesar.


But if it's also nothing but "illusion", then ultimately all of it isn't real. No matter how horrifying it seems. (And this part is not easy. It is in fact gut-wrenchingly hard, for those with a conscience). But it is what it is.

With that in mind then, perhaps detachment & indifference ("controlled folly" in Castaneda's terms) emerges as the final appropriate behavior. But only after looping through the intensive process of lesson engagement. Not before. (This point BTW is highly controversial--and not one easily understood or accepted. I know this as I have gone back and forth myself.)

This concept as explicated by Castaneda, has a deeper foundation in Eastern philosophy. It's the Doctrine of Two Truths. At least that's the way I understand it. FWIW.

 

[Possibility of Being]

Hello HighFive.

This little poem describes a 'higher level' person. Do you think he/she could be on a 'number 4' or a 'number 5'?

When I chose to forget, my mind was set free
I unlearnt all the junk that I got from thee
I squashed my wants, got rid of my needs
I battled desires and dueled with greeds

I also stopped doing the mortgage time
The banks got TARP money, I am keeping my dime
The books of law I flushed down the drain
I don't need the shit that these books contain

It is hard to break from a virtual prison
It is useless to beg, there is no one to reason
One needs the courage to oppose the machine
Its powers – enormous, its forces – unseen.

But little by little I achieved my goal
I am totally free, I can't be controlled
I am sorry to say, but the joke is on you
So long, suckers, Good buy and adjeu!

Sincerely,
SlavaOn

Who says it describes a 'higher level' person?

Looks like some sort of a hippie philosophy to me. Ignoring the reality that surrounds you is not the best strategy for someone who aims to have a meaningful life and grow up. First thing that comes to mind is this:

Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the 'past.' People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.'

Thought you might want to watch that video to see what happens when we sweep an important part of our reality under the rug:

Jordan Peterson on Slaying the dragon within us

 

[Miss.K]

Hi Sitting,

I think I understand what you're saying.
I also think that a lot of truth can be found in eastern teachings, though it is very common to see corruption in the ways I think (as in most religions, or ways)

I think I understand the all is illusion concept too (I'm not able to walk through walls or anything, but theoretically I understand that it's not a spoon and that once you understand that, you can bend it)

I dreamed once I was killed by a Japanese version of Lee Van Cleef, and became a small light in the universe, and was just being, without being anything, and all strangely didn't matter, though I can't even say I was indifferent as that is a human emotion, and I just was. So I think I maybe understand that stage too, though I'm not a meditating yogi type.

But though it might be that "all ultimately is not real", I don't think it works for a real understanding here in 3D, as the unreal is very real to at least 1D to 3D, and it seems rather arrogant to me to tell someone being tortured not to worry cause it ultimately isn't real (same goes for the "just live in the now" theory) Perhaps it is what you speak of, about first go through "looping through the intensive process of lesson engagement" and I will end up not finding it arrogant. But from where I stand it seems to me that those who teach that "all ultimately is not real, so nothing ultimately matters" though they can accumulate a lot of energy, and some perform magic tricks, and obviously are feeling great basking in the oneness with god feeling, and have great control over themselves, that they are not what I'm interested in. -I get a irksome feeling, that makes me not want to follow their way, no matter the benefits. It seems to me as only caring about getting one self out of torture, and let the rest rot in hell, and excusing it by, that they too one day will realize that being tortured don't matter cause all ultimately don't matter. I never got that feeling it with this group..(I can doubt something at times, but no irksome feeling) This way here, seems to me to be more a way of reaching a higher level without excuses if that makes sense.

The stage where I'm at so far, about if all ultimately is real, I think is something like that story of the boy who was throwing stranded jellyfish back into the ocean, and as the beach was full of them, and it would be impossible to make a real difference in dying jellyfish, a by passer asked him why he did it as it made no difference, and the boy answered while throwing a jellyfish back into the ocean "to this one it does"

I'm rather sleep deprived today, as had to get up before the devil puts his shoes on as they say in my homeland, so I'm sorry in case I'm not making sense, or making noise. I'm trying to not think to much before posting, as that lead to years of being a lurker...

 

[sitting]

But from where I stand it seems to me that those who teach that "all ultimately is not real, so nothing ultimately matters"

Hi Miss.K,

I hear you. But that observation came from the horses' mouth. :)

The C's said it--and in no uncertain terms. They said everything that exists is an illusion.
I'm sure goyacobol can pull up tens of such references. If not more.

But more importantly, is what they did NOT say. Like "so nothing ultimately matters." You said that. And it's a common problem. Being not real (in our understanding of real) does not mean it's not important. On the contrary, the experiential process transcends the physical realm ... hence carrying even greater import.

As I repeatedly stressed, it's not an easy concept to work through. And I'm not even sure if it's right, having gone back and forth a few times. The C's illusion remark is the tenuous but important link to this controversial idea of detachment.

A magnificent illusion--to achieve an even greater non-illusory end.
Maybe there's some truth to this. FWIW.

PS
For those wondering what possible lesson could be in store for Warren B, a man with $50 billion to his name, think of this ... "money will soon be worthless."

 

[Cosmos]

Hello HighFive.

This little poem describes a 'higher level' person. Do you think he/she could be on a 'number 4' or a 'number 5'?

When I chose to forget, my mind was set free
I unlearnt all the junk that I got from thee
I squashed my wants, got rid of my needs
I battled desires and dueled with greeds

I also stopped doing the mortgage time
The banks got TARP money, I am keeping my dime
The books of law I flushed down the drain
I don't need the shit that these books contain

It is hard to break from a virtual prison
It is useless to beg, there is no one to reason
One needs the courage to oppose the machine
Its powers – enormous, its forces – unseen.

But little by little I achieved my goal
I am totally free, I can't be controlled
I am sorry to say, but the joke is on you
So long, suckers, Good buy and adjeu!

Sincerely,
SlavaOn

Who says it describes a 'higher level' person?

Looks like some sort of a hippie philosophy to me. Ignoring the reality that surrounds you is not the best strategy for someone who aims to have a meaningful life and grow up. First thing that comes to mind is this:

Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the 'past.' People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.'

Thought you might want to watch that video to see what happens when we sweep an important part of our reality under the rug:

Jordan Peterson on Slaying the dragon within us

Great video Possibility of Being! Highly recommended...

That information goes right hand in hand with what Gurdjieff tried to explain way back then and is now supported by modern since as well, and explained in the following books:

Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious by Timothy D. Wilson
The Angry Book by Theodore I. Rubin
Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High by Kerry Patterson
Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

Ignoring reality both within and outside of ourselves is exactly the opposite of doing "spiritual work". You have to confront it, feel it and try to change it, which is hard and uncomfortable work and is thus quite the opposite of what some here in this thread try to suggest. And we are talking about right down to earth stuff here which is the true "spiritual work".

 

[Laura]

If everything is, ultimately, Information, then yes, it is ultimately illusion. But our experiences and how we think/feel about them is Information, too. In the cosmic scheme, we may be just puffs of smoke, but a lot of puffs of smoke add up to some serious information.

 

[Miss.K]

But from where I stand it seems to me that those who teach that "all ultimately is not real, so nothing ultimately matters"

Hi Miss.K,

I hear you. But that observation came from the horses' mouth. :)

The C's said it--and in no uncertain terms. They said everything that exists is an illusion.
I'm sure goyacobol can pull up tens of such references. If not more.

But more importantly, is what they did NOT say. Like "so nothing ultimately matters." You said that. And it's a common problem. Being not real (in our understanding of real) does not mean it's not important. On the contrary, the experiential process transcends the physical realm ... hence carrying even greater import.

As I repeatedly stressed, it's not an easy concept to work through. And I'm not even sure if it's right, having gone back and forth a few times. The C's illusion remark is the tenuous but important link to this controversial idea of detachment.

A magnificent illusion--to achieve an even greater non-illusory end. FWIW.

PS
For those wondering what possible lesson could be in store for Warren B, a man with $50 billion to his name, think of this ... "money will soon be worthless."

I think maybe the difference, as you say is that "all is illusion", don't mean "all doesn't matter",
and also I think "all is illusion" is not particularly helpful when being tortured, ...hm...well OK, thinking about it, maybe it is, but then not so helpful if you watch your children being tortured. So even though it is ultimately true, it is not so useful here/now (whatever that is)
The thing is that the concept "all is illusion" is not so difficult to understand, and it's not so difficult to gain enough energy to have a comfy life, and bask in the light of connection with divine love, but it is really difficult to understand what to do with this reality in an objective way, no matter if it's ultimately real or not. Or even attempting to figure out what is right and wrong, instead of shaking it off with "all is ultimately as it should be"

I heard a lecture by this guy Stuart Wilde once, who said things I agreed with, and that was even inspiring, but then while talking about freeing one self from limitations used the example of that if he wanted to go fishing for a month he just did, and as far as I'd understood he had children, but did not mention for a second what it felt like for them when daddy thought he should not be limited by anything, or what would happen if his wife at the same time not wanted to have limitations, and that made him lose all credit in my view, and it is kind of the same feeling I get with many so called spiritual teachers (eastern or western).

I think that many skip that complication that it is to be limited by reality and responsibility while bettering themselves (no matter how unreal reality is, and no matter if it's everybodys own choice to fall to earth because they want the pot of gold so that it is their own responsibility if they don't like it) and those who do skip that, I can't admire, and I wouldn't want to follow someone I don't admire (even if I'm very much into comfort, and feeling good in a Winnie the pooh kinda way, who some say is Taoist)

hehe yes, goyacobol would be handy to have at hand at times :D

But I see Laura posted while I wrote, and that's an excellent explanation IMO:

If everything is, ultimately, Information, then yes, it is ultimately illusion. But our experiences and how we think/feel about them is Information, too. In the cosmic scheme, we may be just puffs of smoke, but a lot of puffs of smoke add up to some serious information.

 

[mrelectric91]

But from where I stand it seems to me that those who teach that "all ultimately is not real, so nothing ultimately matters"

Hi Miss.K,

I hear you. But that observation came from the horses' mouth. :)

The C's said it--and in no uncertain terms. They said everything that exists is an illusion.
I'm sure goyacobol can pull up tens of such references. If not more.

But more importantly, is what they did NOT say. Like "so nothing ultimately matters." You said that. And it's a common problem. Being not real (in our understanding of real) does not mean it's not important. On the contrary, the experiential process transcends the physical realm ... hence carrying even greater import.

As I repeatedly stressed, it's not an easy concept to work through. And I'm not even sure if it's right, having gone back and forth a few times. The C's illusion remark is the tenuous but important link to this controversial idea of detachment.

A magnificent illusion--to achieve an even greater non-illusory end.
Maybe there's some truth to this. FWIW.

PS
For those wondering what possible lesson could be in store for Warren B, a man with $50 billion to his name, think of this ... "money will soon be worthless."

Maybe the whole illusion thing is a test, to weed out those not willing to make super efforts.

Will money really be worthless or will it symbolic value simply be transferred to something else.

These perspectives personally I think are for later stages of development, its too use easy to use them as a cop out when your just getting started.

Focus in my humble opinion should be given towards the fact we cannot DO.

 

[Richs]

Agreed Richard, and axj,
yes, I know that joy and yes it can be hard to explain to someone who hasn't tried it, but I think that joy goes hand in hand with pain of compassion,

Well yes, we do need to see and understand everything we can in an objective way. This includes the 'bad' as well as the 'good'. Most of us here do feel the pain of the many who are suffering and have compassion for all of them. We also need to acquire and maintain 'balance', and not dwell singularly on either the good or the bad, but to see and remain aware of both at the same time.

and the frustration of trying to figure out objective solutions for the suffering of the world,

I'm not sure why you think it is our job to "figure out objective solutions for the suffering of the world". If the reality we live in was supposed to be different than it currently is it most likely would be. The way it IS reflects our current lesson-plan and the conditions we need to work through. Also, the C's have recently told us that the only way left to unite humanity is through "suffering", and this appears to be what is going on these days.

It seems to me that you have a different idea of how things should progress than the Cosmos has in mind for us. Unfortunately, we students don't get to set the curriculum.

The joy alone is very passive, and a little pathetic at best and Lizzie like at worst

I have no idea why you would claim such a thing.

Oh I don't think it's my job to "figure out objective solutions for the suffering of the world" (but I think I should try nevertheless, as in trying one is forced to see, and understand the world)
I'm trying to express (perhaps poorly) what I see as the difference of people who are doing the work, and making a page like Sott that takes a stand on right and wrong,

Yes, you gave entirely the wrong impression with your previous post. Thanks for this clarification as it totally straightens me out as to what you really meant. Don't be too discouraged that you gave the wrong meaning in your post as writing in a way that your actual thoughts in any matter are clear takes time and practice.

and people who work on them selves, but only on themselves, and might feel the joy of the oneness with cosmos, but chant along with Hilary that Putin is Hitler, and generally seem to not care to much about understanding what goes on in the world, as they know that the universe is perfect as it is.

I don't think that passive suffering and not trying to figure out solutions is what the cosmos has in mind for me. I don't think trying to figure out objective solutions for the suffering of the world is the same as having a different idea of how things should progress than the Cosmos has in mind for us.
To me it has always seemed as the kind of enlightened people, who typically have some eastern yogi for teacher, might be enlightened, but that the message is "all is perfect so nothing matters" so that the individual don't have to pay attention to left and right (the navel is enough to pay attention to) because all is as it is supposed to be, and one can just sit here and feel great in ones enlightened state while the wold is screaming in pain.
This has made me not so interested in becoming enlightened, though I understood the truth that "the universe is perfect as it is"
When I found Lauras writings, it was the first time I felt I had come across a way to "enlightenment" that was not the passive "all is perfect so nothing matters" way, though it is in agreement that "the universe is perfect as it is"
And I think that it is because the group has been trying to "figure out objective solutions for the suffering of the world" that for example light has been shun on the problem of psychopaths, that I see as essential knowledge, and that I don't see the "all is perfect so nothing matters" ways manage to figure out.
So when I call it pathetic at best and Lizzie like at worst, I mean navel gazing at best, and high level STS self pleasuring at worst, when one becomes enlightened in the "all is perfect so nothing matters" way. (I might be wrong, but it is my impression so far)

Does that help explain what I was trying to get at?

 

[Miss.K]

Yes, you gave entirely the wrong impression with your previous post. Thanks for this clarification as it totally straightens me out as to what you really meant. Don't be too discouraged that you gave the wrong meaning in your post as writing in a way that your actual thoughts in any matter are clear takes time and practice.

Thanks Richard, yes I understood later how it souded

I really admire those who master the art of talking clearly and precisely,
I hope to one day get there with practice, but until then, thank you all for your patience, and I'm sorry that I sound like a complete idiot at times

 

[sitting]

Will money really be worthless or will it symbolic value simply be transferred to something else.

Hi mrelectric91,

On the money thing. It's hard sometimes to know if they meant it in a literal sense or not. And the difference of course matters a great deal, for us 3rd D creatures who survive on transactions--presently based on money.

But putting together all that they've said, I would take it literally. And barter may be the eventual outcome. And what then is Warren B gonna say? I trade you 10,000 shares of Berkshire stock for 100 loaves of bread?

 

[Low Five]

Hello,

I know a man who lives in Assisi, the beautiful town where St.Francis and St.Clare hailed from. He fasts on bread, water and honey, twice a week. He prays a very great deal, mostly for women and children.

Perhaps all here will automatically ascribe him to 'the way of the monk' but experience of things and people is the key, isn't it?. I see in this man not just a great Love but the beginnings of Objective Conscience even, having talked with him about his plans and his activities in the future, which he talks of as if they were inevitable for him. He really knows who he is, this man, although I do not feel he is perfect.

Of all things I think that Christ gave, humility and the value of meekness to one's interior spiritual health and progress, is for me the most apposite thing to mention on this thread, considering all that I have here read. Like honesty, and honesty with oneself, it is a great Pearl, perhaps priceless.

Ciao x

 

[Konstantin]

Hello,

I know a man who lives in Assisi, the beautiful town where St.Francis and St.Clare hailed from. He fasts on bread, water and honey, twice a week. He prays a very great deal, mostly for women and children.

Perhaps all here will automatically ascribe him to 'the way of the monk' but experience of things and people is the key, isn't it?. I see in this man not just a great Love but the beginnings of Objective Conscience even, having talked with him about his plans and his activities in the future, which he talks of as if they were inevitable for him. He really knows who he is, this man, although I do not feel he is perfect.

Of all things I think that Christ gave, humility and the value of meekness to one's interior spiritual health and progress, is for me the most apposite thing to mention on this thread, considering all that I have here read. Like honesty, and honesty with oneself, it is a great Pearl, perhaps priceless.

Ciao x

Hello, Low Five.

I'm glad to see that you have made your first post on this forum. However, all new members usually make a short introduction about themselves and how they found this forum in the newbie section, so the other members know who they are little more.

 

[Low Five]

Hello, My apologies - I did not notice that. I will consider doing so.

 

[gnosisxsophia]

Hi Team,

Interesting thread.

I would not limit myself to anything. Not to a teaching, not to a group, and not to a teacher. Because you never know where excitement will lead you, and therefore if you put conditions on it you can hold yourself back.

G'day Highfive, nice to see you here.

May I also add that as all roads lead to Rome, we could consider there is thus only one path?

That of Service to Others.

Being a master of a craft does not mean being a master of oneself.

And further to Nienna's statement, we perhaps analyse which 'Self' we are discussing.

The 'Me' or the 'I'?

For if we are seeking to subjugate the 'I', then this by definition identifies the 'I' as other than 'self' (Me).

Which would then be an act of 'Service to Self' (Me or the Ego).

May I suggest therefore that one 'work' towards knowing 'Thyself' (The 'I') from which may come the opportunity to BE Thyself.

As opposed to seeking mastery.

But if it's also nothing but "illusion", then ultimately all of it isn't real. No matter how horrifying it seems. (And this part is not easy. It is in fact gut-wrenchingly hard, for those with a conscience). But it is what it is.

Hi sitting, perhaps in place of viewing the 'illusion' as something that isn't real.

Reframe it as a 'Glamour'-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glamour_(presentation)

And therefore it's 'realness' then relies only on your perception.

Buddha also says something along the lines of 'The clear man views Nirvana with disinterest'.

The saying: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" is very true in my experience.

I agree, and the teacher may well be neither external nor corporeal.

But it may be 'I'.

I am totally free, I can't be controlled
I am sorry to say, but the joke is on you
So long, suckers, Good buy and adjeu!

And bonjour SlavaOn, ca va?

In regard to the final stanza of your poem, may I also comment that you could extend the Gallic flavour to something akin to -

A tout le monde
A tous mes amis
Je vous aime
Je dois partir

Because everything really does sound better in French imo :).

Vive la revolution

J