Hating My Mother and Merry Christmas - Two of my *I*s

lilyalic Laura is right. "Do you want to want to grow up to be a real girl" to become psychologically healthy? Dig deep lilyalic.....it is not easy but if you are prepared to do the work it is worth it. To get your head around being raised in a narcissistic family with the implications, is to say the least, mind boggling.

A website that helped me initially is www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com. I stumbled across this before I found this Fourm and I found it helpful. I have yet to read The Narcissistic Family as Im in the process of "writing a letter" about the effects on me being raised by a narcissist mother and enabling father. This therapy alone has given me insights to my own behaviour.

Good luck.
 
Ok, so before I looked at these posts I thought I'd do EE, to stabilise my emotions and attempt to think more clearer. (Saving the 'prayer of the soul' for before I go to bed)

Laura said:
Why did you feel that you were in any kind of position to make a thread about Christmas when most readers already are aware of the fact that you cannot possibly have a clue about Christmas considering the background you come from? Did you think that everyone would just forget all about it and brush it under the rug?

No, I don't think it was a way of "making it OK for you too", it was another way of making yourself the center of attention.

If anything I was really reluctant to post about my mother to begin with, I was advised otherwise and decided to after a massive realisation from an attack happened that day.

There's no conscious part of me that enjoys being the centre of attention. I assure you that wasn't my intention. - It was simply just to bring some joy, I genuinely wanted to know what others where doing around the holidays, and wanted to post up some nice pictures.

Laura said:
I'm not sure you are capable of being honest at all, reluctantly or not. I think you just make up narratives to make yourself feel and look good in your own eyes/mind.

By narratives do you mean different I's?
I am not trying to feel or look good.. If anything I'm really upset, and that isn't just me being the 'victim', or trying to be, it's just how I feel and how I am thinking. I'm upset because the harsh reality hit me 'big time' after this has been brought about -- and my "I's" are going insane.

Laura said:
All of this is just a narrative because you've been spotted covertly manipulating to get attention.

Again, the whole intention of the post wasn't to get attention, I really believe you have me all wrong.

It really wasn't an intentional 'narrative' it was just what I was thinking (and YES it was one of my I's but one I listen to, and the one that effects the most in terms of acceptance)

Laura said:
The question is, do you want to grow up to be a "real girl"? Stop being a Pinnochia?

That goes without saying, of course I want to grow into this 'realistic being' trying to wash away the mechanics, the ego states, loops, etc. That is why I'm here, I want the truth about myself, and the whole world.

French Marigold said:
A website that helped me initially is www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com. I stumbled across this before I found this Fourm and I found it helpful. I have yet to read The Narcissistic Family as Im in the process of "writing a letter" about the effects on me being raised by a narcissist mother and enabling father. This therapy alone has given me insights to my own behaviour.

Good luck.

Thank you for the link, will take a look.
 
I would really like to know how it came across that I covertly manipulated in order to get attention, I am baffled by it.

I know I need to start taking the Work on myself more seriously, I'm just finding it difficult to let go of attachments I.e. my previous friends (who aren't interested in 'the work' and the truth), family, previous world for that matter)

I need to accept a few more emotional barriers, need to let the pain settle without stopping myself with the voice of "you're pathetic".
 
You need to read "Strangers to Ourselves" and the thread on that topic and related topics. You think you know your mind? I can assure you that you lie to yourself all the time about everything.
 
When I juxtapose these two responses of yours:

lilyalic said:
Laura said:
All of this is just a narrative because you've been spotted covertly manipulating to get attention.

Again, the whole intention of the post wasn't to get attention, I really believe you have me all wrong.
.
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lilyalic said:
Laura said:
The question is, do you want to grow up to be a "real girl"? Stop being a Pinnochia?

That goes without saying, of course I want to grow into this 'realistic being' trying to wash away the mechanics, the ego states, loops, etc. That is why I'm here, I want the truth about myself, and the whole world.

I'm moved to ask what is your preferred method of learning if you're going to dismiss a potentially valuable perspective?


lilyalic said:
There's no conscious part of me that enjoys being the centre of attention. I assure you that wasn't my intention. - It was simply just to bring some joy, I genuinely wanted to know what others where doing around the holidays, and wanted to post up some nice pictures.

Sometimes I find myself in a situation that wasn't consciously planned but that benefits me nonetheless. I suspect there's a deeper part of me...maybe more aware than my conscious self is and that knows how to practice 'correct timing' for something I really need.

Do you think that could be possible for you, or possible in general? You might come to know for sure if you familiarize yourself with the recommended reading.
 
I've been reading Strangers to Ourselves for the past few weeks along with "Why we love" and "How to make friends and influence people" and I've just started "The Wave"

--Well of course I may have something 'deeper inside' but my conscious intentions weren't for attention, I'm not dismissing possibilities, ANYTHING is possible when it comes to our minds -Horse, Rider, Adaptive Unconscious, etc.. But to me, and what I knew, the original post was just for help, not for energy draining.

Maybe you're right and I don't know my mind AT ALL, but there must be a part of us that knows SOMETHING.
 
I keep just trying to justify SOMETHING. - maybe whatever is manipulative inside me, seizes to believe it.

I need to do some serious work on myself; narcissistic traits, and what DOESN'T want to know the truth and doesn't want to see a Therapist.
 
lilyalic said:
There's no conscious part of me that enjoys being the centre of attention.

But there are probably subconscious parts that enjoy it. Without knowing your machine well, the only outcome is to remain a slave to these parts.

lilyalic said:
I assure you that wasn't my intention.

Even without your intention it happened nevertheless. In the terminology of the Work, this is what is called "mechanicalness".

lilyalic said:
It was simply just to bring some joy, I genuinely wanted to know what others where doing around the holidays, and wanted to post up some nice pictures.

This is a narrative made up for the purpose of excusing your subconscious parts. See Strangers to Ourselves.
 
lilyalic said:
I keep just trying to justify SOMETHING. - maybe whatever is manipulative inside me, seizes to believe it.

I need to do some serious work on myself; narcissistic traits, and what DOESN'T want to know the truth and doesn't want to see a Therapist.

Not wanting to see a therapist because you are afraid of what they will think of you is, basically, internal considering. You are more concerned with how others perceive you than you are with wanting to get to the bottom of your programs and to have someone help you to see yourself. You cannot really do the Work by yourself because, as Laura said, you lie to yourself all of the time.

This is a good time for you to read the following. It is part of The First Initiation by either Gurdjieff or Jeanne de Salzmann.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

What you are doing by defending and deflecting what is being shown to you shows just how much you are not doing the Work.

Learning that you are already reading Strangers to Ourselves and still thinking that you know your own mind and know yourself better than others who are getting a really good look at you seems to indicate that you may be reading the book, but you are not understanding anything that it is saying.
 
lilyalic said:
Maybe you're right and I don't know my mind AT ALL, but there must be a part of us that knows SOMETHING.

Read that text very carefully (and more than one times) and you may find some answers to your questions:

The 'First Initiation' written by Mme Jeanne de Salzmann:


You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! ...

You live exclusively according to "I like" or "I don't like," you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you-theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your "appreciation of yourself" blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further.

This test divides men into two kinds: the "wheat" and the "chaff." No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life.

The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

... If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures - talent, education, culture, genius-are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see - I see myself - by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your "I like" and "I don't like." Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying "sincerely" to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others - lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions - lies. Your teaching - lies. Your theories, your art- lies. Your social life, your family life - lies. And what you think of yourself - lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day.

You will see that you are different from what you think you are.

You will see that you are two.

One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

http://www.gurdjieff.org/salzmann3.htm
 
lilyalic said:
Again, the whole intention of the post wasn't to get attention, I really believe you have me all wrong.

Sure, everyone believes that at first. It's really up to you. But I think this just shows that therapy might be much more beneficial for you than trying to do this by yourself, and here. Sometimes we need to work on some basic things before we can actually look at ourselves more seriously.


It really wasn't an intentional 'narrative' it was just what I was thinking (and YES it was one of my I's but one I listen to, and the one that effects the most in terms of acceptance)

Narratives aren't intentional. What you describe is exactly what happens with narratives. For example. your thinking behind wanting to talk about Christmas, or you not wanting to be the center of attention. Who does consciously think "let' me post on the forum so that I can feed on everyone and be the center of attention"? Some might, but it's rare. Most commonly, they'll be thinking "I need help sorting this out. I have the answers, but let me just get a confirmation, or honest feedback." But then, when they do get that, they defend themselves and run away from the real issue. In some cases, this means that what others see in you is kind of what you are criticizing others of doing, or that your problem is actually the fact that you yourself are feeding whatever "problem" you shared. And that is hard to accept if you aren't ready.
 
Ok, so after accepting all the mirroring and perceptions that I SERIOUSLY needed, I am disgusted in myself, I've written so many traits about myself that others had seen and I didn't, and they are all true. It hit me hard realising that I know NOTHING, even if doing The Work, or attempting, about myself.

Reading back over this thread made me realise how little I know myself, and how much I tried to justify myself (massively narcissistic!), how much my defence system just didn't want to realise the cold hard truth! I took some comments as attacks (because the thought of not knowing myself in anyway shape or form is actually terrifying) rather than compassionate, rational and intellectual responses.

Even after all I've read, and thought about our minds and our subconscious', our thought loops, programmes, how mechanical we are as a race, there must have been something subconscious that disregarded the "not knowing" from myself.

So, I apologise, and thank all those that responded even when I seemed like a 'little girl'.
 
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