Helping others and networking

[Keit]

That's one of the main issues I have with participating in any conversation or discussion, not just here in the forum. I need to write the perfect post, make the perfect comment, be untouchable. To me it sometimes feels like being a monster or silly fool wearing the costume of a decent human. I think it has something to do with the way I judge myself, the way I have been judged in my childhood. If I were to just express myself right away, the way I truly am, everyone would be shocked and reject me for what I am. That is the underlying fear, isn't it? This imagination is exaggerated. It's the fearful child in me, that thinks it can't handle any friction, any irritation or controversy, the consequences of being myself.

I am going over various quotes that I left in my notebook, and since what you write is similar to what I have been going through before (even if not exactly similar), perhaps some of them could help you or others.

Not all of them are specifically related to communication with others or difficulty of sharing on the forum. But in the end, from the Work point of view, they all are related, since they deal with topics like feelings of shame, inner programs and various fears.

"Every acknowledged attitude has as its counterpart an equally substantial polar opposite. The more extreme the attitude, the more exaggerated, undifferentiated, and out of touch its hidden equivalent. Unless we become acceptingly aware of those unconscious shadow sides of who we are, we are certain to find ourselves at the mercy of their powerfully primitive demands".

"Together, you and your shadow make a complete self. Though your shadow may contain some destructive potential, it also embodies lost vitality, highly personal creative abilities, and everything you always wanted to know about yourself but were afraid to ask".

"..."Could it be that what she feared most was learning that she was no different than anyone else? The lifelong burden of maintaining multiple false selves was ultimately unrewarding. Even so, it was not easy for Elly to relinquish her chronic sense of personal peculiarity. Accepting her true self would necessitate transforming her craziness into creativity, her secret savagery into nondestructive aggressiveness, and her isolated emptiness into a hunger for risking close personal relationships. Acceptance of her ordinary aspect would require that she give up her martyred secret superiority as well"".

"Shame is a learned piece of personal pathology, a kind of needless suffering to which children do not have to be subjected. Those who have been shamed can some day learn to overcome feeling unworthy.[...] Shy people who have a well-developed sense of self understand that it is the external situation that contributes to embarrassment, rather than some defect in their own character.[...] Now the enemy is within. It is only my own overblown ego that shames me. It is only I, still sometimes arrogantly insisting on having higher standards for myself that I would impose on others.[...] We must make our inevitable mistakes, force our foolishness, forgive ourselves as best as we can, and go on".

"The transformation first required that he grieve his losses. Only then he would be able to identify and reclaim as his own much of what he had previously projected."

And speaking of reading posts with particular voice in our heads...

"Distinguishing the extent of projection in our perceptions requires our paying attention to disproportionate emotional reactions they evoke in us. When we are not projecting, we can observe the personal characteristics of others free of moralistic condemnation, worshipful admiration, or enthralling fascination."

 

[Alada]

And speaking of reading posts with particular voice in our heads...

"Distinguishing the extent of projection in our perceptions requires our paying attention to disproportionate emotional reactions they evoke in us. When we are not projecting, we can observe the personal characteristics of others free of moralistic condemnation, worshipful admiration, or enthralling fascination."

That’s a great quote, the reminder that it is projection is really helpful. One way to approach the problem it is to remind ourselves of that fact every time it crops up, and reinforce the observation with as much detail as necessary in order for the emotional centre to get and admit that "oh yes, you do have a point". So every time it runs, you flag up for the emotional centre that it has NO data to back up what it’s trying to send your way! "Okay then emotional centre, you have no data – again!. Where’s your evidence?!"

Meanwhile we can fully engage the intellectual centre and deploy counter measures, present evidence from things we know to be true, and offer counter arguments to highlight how silly it is to worry or go off into imagination where there is NO data. Especially within the context of networking here.

A better use of all that energy going into projection and imagination would be to use it to consider what caused those programs to manifest in the first place, rather than wasting it like that. It’s an interesting exercise to come at it from the angle of "okay, so if I have a habit of jumping into these kind of thought patterns with person x, and those kind of thought patterns with person y, so how could they have formed in the first place? What purpose did they serve then? What was the earlier me trying to do by creating these narratives or in what ways had the earlier me been induced to think that way?". It can provide useful insights as to whose shadows are being projected into the scene.

 

[Solie123]

Thank you all for such an amazing thread! Honestly, I think this thread will hit a bone with most members here on the forum.

I just want to add, even though I am not an example of this as I find myself at times, typing up a response to a thread and then not posting it! :( But none the less, I would like to share...

Networking is truly a mutually beneficial processes. There's a saying, that I'm sure most of you are familiar with by Albert Einstein that goes, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

There have been countless time that I have an idea that I want to share and in the process of typing it up and sharing it with others, I find that I come to an even greater understatement of the concept. Or I have two separate ideas that upon typing them in the same response I find a connection between them. It's kind of like an 'Aha!' moment.

It's as if writing truly does integrate knowledge, concepts and ideas.

:) Just my 2 cents.

 

[nicklebleu]

Thank you all for such an amazing thread! Honestly, I think this thread will hit a bone with most members here on the forum.

I just want to add, even though I am not an example of this as I find myself at times, typing up a response to a thread and then not posting it! :( But none the less, I would like to share...

Networking is truly a mutually beneficial processes. There's a saying, that I'm sure most of you are familiar with by Albert Einstein that goes, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

There have been countless time that I have an idea that I want to share and in the process of typing it up and sharing it with others, I find that I come to an even greater understatement of the concept. Or I have two separate ideas that upon typing them in the same response I find a connection between them. It's kind of like an 'Aha!' moment.

It's as if writing truly does integrate knowledge, concepts and ideas.

:) Just my 2 cents.

Then posting your idea seems even more important, as other members could then have the same "Aha!" moment ...
:)

 

[Alejo]

Thanks you so much for sharing this.

This thread has hit me right in the inaction. And it was perfect timing.

I was thinking about this on my way to work and it occurred to me that sometimes as we read posts by other members, we not only take in the concept or idea they're presenting. But we're also running a small unconscious program of comparing ourselves, or what we'd have to say to what's been said.

And one of the things I've realized is that most of the times you compare yourself, regardless of objective reality, you end up on the loosing end. and this feeling of inadequacy usually starts this downward spiral of all sorts of feelings and validations that one come up to further justify the inaction.

Regarding the example given at the beginning of the post. This experiment, occurs to me, is also related to cultural programming. And this cultural programming might even filter in to this network.

In most cases, at least in the west, people have been taught that it's only an authority the one that can deal with certain issues. Be it political, judicial, medical, spiritual. We're always taught that, someone will take care of things. You see a crime or accident? Don't worry, just call 911 and wait it out. And while at some level it is appropriate to wait for the appropriately trained professional to deal with it. I also feel that to a great extend people are trained to not be responsible or to shy away from responsibility.

Don't research your own symptoms and look for a holistic approach, all you have to do is go to the doctor and buy what he tells you to. Don't question the news, all you have to do is agree with the worldview presented therein and act accordingly. Don't question your diet, all you have to do is follow the guidelines and so on

I hope that makes sense, and that I didn't take the thread into a way off direction.:)

 

[Miss.K]

And speaking of reading posts with particular voice in our heads...

"Distinguishing the extent of projection in our perceptions requires our paying attention to disproportionate emotional reactions they evoke in us. When we are not projecting, we can observe the personal characteristics of others free of moralistic condemnation, worshipful admiration, or enthralling fascination."

I have because of the voice in the head/"moralistic condemnation, worshipful admiration, or enthralling fascination" at some point started to make an effort not to look at the name/picture of the poster. Though "who" is shown in the corner of the eye, the conscious shifting focus away from who says it to what is being said, helps my mind some to not make voices while I read.

Still working on not making voices on sentences from my own posts replaying in my mind after posting, telling myself it is not nice or fair to mock ;)

 

[Alada]

Regarding the example given at the beginning of the post. This experiment, occurs to me, is also related to cultural programming. And this cultural programming might even filter in to this network.

In most cases, at least in the west, people have been taught that it's only an authority the one that can deal with certain issues. Be it political, judicial, medical, spiritual. We're always taught that, someone will take care of things. You see a crime or accident? Don't worry, just call 911 and wait it out. And while at some level it is appropriate to wait for the appropriately trained professional to deal with it. I also feel that to a great extend people are trained to not be responsible or to shy away from responsibility.

Don't research your own symptoms and look for a holistic approach, all you have to do is go to the doctor and buy what he tells you to. Don't question the news, all you have to do is agree with the worldview presented therein and act accordingly. Don't question your diet, all you have to do is follow the guidelines and so on

I hope that makes sense, and that I didn't take the thread into a way off direction.:)

Not at all, I think it’s part of the problem. What the above describes is that our conditioning encourages us to shirk responsibility and through doing so the effect is to keep us in a sort of child-like state I think. Especially notable where it comes to figures of authority. If our upbringing and social surroundings don’t encourage us to think and behave as adults, then perhaps we’re more likely to hesitate, or resist taking any action. Which then boils down to our "less than optimal" levels of emotional maturity, we shy away through fears inculcated into us as children.

So I think we have to do the 'scary' thing sometimes and jump on in even when we’re not sure. Otherwise we move forever in very tiny circles I think, all the while imagining we’re making progress while actually doing nothing. I find that prospect scarier than the thought of trying but making mistakes in the process of doing so.

 

[Alejo]

Not at all, I think it’s part of the problem. What the above describes is that our conditioning encourages us to shirk responsibility and through doing so the effect is to keep us in a sort of child-like state I think. Especially notable where it comes to figures of authority. If our upbringing and social surroundings don’t encourage us to think and behave as adults, then perhaps we’re more likely to hesitate, or resist taking any action. Which then boils down to our "less than optimal" levels of emotional maturity, we shy away through fears inculcated into us as children.

So I think we have to do the 'scary' thing sometimes and jump on in even when we’re not sure. Otherwise we move forever in very tiny circles I think, all the while imagining we’re making progress while actually doing nothing. I find that prospect scarier than the thought of trying but making mistakes in the process of doing so.

Precisely, regarding that 'scary' thing, it reminded me of something I came to realize something a little while back. And it started with the idea that i was so terribly afraid of making mistakes, yet my life had been filled with them. And that's when i realized that making mistakes implies a choice. If you strive to never ever make a mistake then you're essentially giving up your will to an external structure of rules that you don't bother to question. But if you make mistakes, and become responsible for them then chances are you've made a choice, even if it might have had adverse consequences.

By this i don't mean to condone carelessness or recklessness. But rather, to not be afraid of being wrong. When we post here, we have to do so with the idea firmly set of perhaps being somewhat or absolutely wrong about what we expose. And once you act despite this fear of being wrong, you're then more able, humbly, to learn from being wrong.. whenever you're wrong.

As in, the best way to get rid of a fear is to "play your hand". If you are afraid of posting because you might be wrong, then the best approach, perhaps, is to dive in and find out whether you are or you aren't. And once you find out, then you have nothing left to loose. And chances are that the reality, of being wrong or not, teaches you something.

 

[Voyageur]

Not at all, I think it’s part of the problem. What the above describes is that our conditioning encourages us to shirk responsibility and through doing so the effect is to keep us in a sort of child-like state I think. Especially notable where it comes to figures of authority. If our upbringing and social surroundings don’t encourage us to think and behave as adults, then perhaps we’re more likely to hesitate, or resist taking any action. Which then boils down to our "less than optimal" levels of emotional maturity, we shy away through fears inculcated into us as children.

So I think we have to do the 'scary' thing sometimes and jump on in even when we’re not sure. Otherwise we move forever in very tiny circles I think, all the while imagining we’re making progress while actually doing nothing. I find that prospect scarier than the thought of trying but making mistakes in the process of doing so.

Precisely, regarding that 'scary' thing, it reminded me of something I came to realize something a little while back. And it started with the idea that i was so terribly afraid of making mistakes, yet my life had been filled with them. And that's when i realized that making mistakes implies a choice. If you strive to never ever make a mistake then you're essentially giving up your will to an external structure of rules that you don't bother to question. But if you make mistakes, and become responsible for them then chances are you've made a choice, even if it might have had adverse consequences.

By this i don't mean to condone carelessness or recklessness. But rather, to not be afraid of being wrong. When we post here, we have to do so with the idea firmly set of perhaps being somewhat or absolutely wrong about what we expose. And once you act despite this fear of being wrong, you're then more able, humbly, to learn from being wrong.. whenever you're wrong.

As in, the best way to get rid of a fear is to "play your hand". If you are afraid of posting because you might be wrong, then the best approach, perhaps, is to dive in and find out whether you are or you aren't. And once you find out, then you have nothing left to loose. And chances are that the reality, of being wrong or not, teaches you something.

Yes, and the lessons are valuable. Perhaps like others, I've some drafts that I never posted. The lesson might have been to reflect on them and see that they would not add to a discussion or the discussion moved so fast that it might become just more noise; an ongoing lesson. However, there are also drafts that might have taught me something had they been posted; so that is a lost lesson too.

 

[Faith]

So I think we have to do the 'scary' thing sometimes and jump on in even when we’re not sure. Otherwise we move forever in very tiny circles I think, all the while imagining we’re making progress while actually doing nothing. I find that prospect scarier than the thought of trying but making mistakes in the process of doing so.

Interesting. That's how I understand conscious suffering, doing the scary thing, going to the limits of your comfort zone. It's the point where you can challenge your programs, your demons, whatever it is, that holds you back, that holds you captured. It's the only way you can grow and get rid of limitations. That's how I understand Gurdijefs story about his dying grandmother, who encouraged him to do everything differently and not like others do. It's in Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandsons. It's one of the major influences that made him the man he was as he tells us. As a child he exercised this principle to the extreme, making a 'fool' of himself and learned to live with the friction that goes along with it. I guess if you practice this often enough you get closer to expressing yourself in a more authentic way. It's like a cold shower. But that's something I am afraid of, being different in a conflicting way. Maybe I make a mistake. Maybe I make a fool of myself. Maybe I misbehave. Maybe I hurt someone. When you do something new or throw in your point of view or act, you may risk conflict and if you are not used to it, you tend to avoid it and remain in your comfort zone, unless you work on yourself. Sometimes the exercise is just to fall down if you want to learn how to stand up.

Hmm. The fool really is an interesting role model in that regard.

 

[Faith]

By this i don't mean to condone carelessness or recklessness. But rather, to not be afraid of being wrong. When we post here, we have to do so with the idea firmly set of perhaps being somewhat or absolutely wrong about what we expose. And once you act despite this fear of being wrong, you're then more able, humbly, to learn from being wrong.. whenever you're wrong.

Yes exactly. If you can imagine what 'carelessness or recklessness" does to someone, it hurts yourself so much, that you do everything you can to avoid it or if it still happens, do everything to undo the damage. Men are like hedgehogs, sometimes they hurt each other :P

 

[Alada]

It's the point where you can challenge your programs, your demons, whatever it is, that holds you back, that holds you captured. It's the only way you can grow and get rid of limitations.

Exactly, it's doing the things that can take us out of our comfort zone, or at least to the boundary, which can show us where our programs are. That's one of the important aspects I think, that to challenge programs and conditioning we have first to be able to see and identify them. Takes time and a lot of thinking through to work out what buttons are being pushed and why that may be so, to then dig down to what may have created them in the first place. Sometimes it takes while going through the uncomfortable process of feeling those programs run so that we can really learn to see them.

The usual process is avoidance and/or self calming as a way for our system to deal with it, when that happens, nothing in us is able to change then. We're all made like this though, it's just how we are and what we have to work with, which is in part why the work is sometimes described as 'going against god/nature' I think. Everything internally and externally is set up to keep things working in the usual way, and so we need to find ways to work differently.

 

[Faith]

Great quotes, Keit! Gives me food for thought. I always underline sentences in a book I read, but it's better to write them down, as you did. Maybe a quote journal would be a good idea

 

[Faith]

The usual process is avoidance and/or self calming as a way for our system to deal with it, when that happens, nothing in us is able to change then. We're all made like this though, it's just how we are and what we have to work with, which is in part why the work is sometimes described as 'going against god/nature' I think. Everything internally and externally is set up to keep things working in the usual way, and so we need to find ways to work differently.

Hehe. The General Law, isn't it? I guess we need a certain resistance in order to overcome it, like weight lifting. A good challenge makes you stronger. :)

 

[Cyre2067]

Really interesting thread. As I was reading it I found everyone's descriptions pretty useful and see a lot of the same symptoms in myself. When I think about my posting behavior it was much greater in the past, and reading some of those old posts definitely makes me wince on occasion. I feel like now I've come to the point where I only jump in when I have something to add whereas before I just had to get my two cents in.

The usual process is avoidance and/or self calming as a way for our system to deal with it, when that happens, nothing in us is able to change then. We're all made like this though, it's just how we are and what we have to work with, which is in part why the work is sometimes described as 'going against god/nature' I think. Everything internally and externally is set up to keep things working in the usual way, and so we need to find ways to work differently.

Hehe. The General Law, isn't it? I guess we need a certain resistance in order to overcome it, like weight lifting. A good challenge makes you stronger. :)

That's how it feels. Forum presence is like a muscle we need to exercise regularly, and if we stop, it atrophies.