Historical Events Database - History

[shijing]

Re: Historical Events Database

Since two of the types of "guest stars" are supposed to be comets, and yet the Chinese had no problems at all designating comets and "bushy stars" and "broom stars" and "tailed stars" etc, so WHY that distinction?

Not sure how much this will help, but here's some discussion of the cometary terminology from Archaeoastronomy in East Asia (p. 6-8):

The technical terms for comet most commonly encountered in the records are kexing, "guest star" (anomalous astral body, either comet or nova); huixing, "broom star"; xingbo, "fuzzy star" (i.e. a tailless comet); and changxing, "long star," which are uniformly translated this way. In the past, some scholars have been perplexed by the compound xingbo, which appears to defy Chinese grammatical conventions by having xing "star/celestial body" modify bo "be fuzzy/bristle." However, bo has a verbal sense here, meaning "to become fuzzy or bushy." This is entirely consistent with cometary records where it is generally used to describe the appearance of tailless comets or the changed aspect of a comet that has grown a tail. This usage appears in some of the earliest records and probably derives from a conception in which stars were thought to be capable of spontaneously becoming fuzzy, growing a tail, and moving about. Rendering xing bo as "bushy star" by analogy with hui xing ("broom" plus "star"), which is quite properly translated "broom star", is misleading in that it obscures the possibility that bo may imply a change of appearance. Thus, when one reads in a record of the comet of 9 January 595,

14th year of the Kaihuang reign period of Emperor Wen of the Sui Dynasty, 11th month, day guiwei [20]; there was a broom star that became fuzzy in Xu [LM 11] and Wei [LM 12], and then reached Kui [LM 15] and Lou [LM 16]. (Sui shu: Tianwen zhi, ch. 21, 612)

One suspects that it is the comet's reappearance without a tail that is being reported in shorthand. Indeed, comparison with European reports of the behavior of this comet confirms this interpretation (Kronk, 1999).

[...] In the case of the cometary apparitions, although many have been published in the past, there are gaps in the record and a rigorous distinction has not always been made between comets and supernovae, the latter also often denoted by the term guest star.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

I wonder where can I put "atmospheric changes" as in indirect signs of comet dust or cooling of the atmosphere. Also, where could I put indirect impact signs. An example here:

…on the 23rd of the month of October, on Saturday, the sun darkened for eight hours. The earth was covered by dust as if ash or brimstone were scattered over it. And on the same day another sign appeared – in the wall of Edessa: there was a breach in the wall south of the Great Gate, the stones from that place being scattered to a considerable distance from it.

Also in the same year in November, three signs appeared in the sky in the middle of the day, as it were a rainbow appearing in the clouds, their curve(s) being turned downward and their end(s) upward. One of them (was seen) on the southern side, in the middle of the sky, the second to the east of it, and the third to the west (all) pointing towards the sky.

Also in the same year, in the month of January, another sign appeared in the sky, in the south-western corner, resembling a spear, which some people called the “Broom of Perdition”, while others called it the “Spear of War”.

Are these under "Unusual Conflagration"? I don't quite understand what this last one is about.

For the above writing, I created the entries for "Comet" and "Strange Fire" (it is specified that this was no eclipse). But don't know quite what to do with the reversed rainbows and the wall thing. Where would you guys put it?

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I wonder where can I put "atmospheric changes" as in indirect signs of comet dust or cooling of the atmosphere. Also, where could I put indirect impact signs. An example here:

…on the 23rd of the month of October, on Saturday, the sun darkened for eight hours. The earth was covered by dust as if ash or brimstone were scattered over it. And on the same day another sign appeared – in the wall of Edessa: there was a breach in the wall south of the Great Gate, the stones from that place being scattered to a considerable distance from it.

Okay, I'll add a new category "Dust Veil" since it can darken both sun and moon.

Also in the same year in November, three signs appeared in the sky in the middle of the day, as it were a rainbow appearing in the clouds, their curve(s) being turned downward and their end(s) upward. One of them (was seen) on the southern side, in the middle of the sky, the second to the east of it, and the third to the west (all) pointing towards the sky.

That would be an "Unusual Atmospheric Phenomena".

Also in the same year, in the month of January, another sign appeared in the sky, in the south-western corner, resembling a spear, which some people called the “Broom of Perdition”, while others called it the “Spear of War”.

That would be a comet.
[/quote]

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I wonder where can I put "atmospheric changes" as in indirect signs of comet dust or cooling of the atmosphere. Also, where could I put indirect impact signs. An example here:

…on the 23rd of the month of October, on Saturday, the sun darkened for eight hours. The earth was covered by dust as if ash or brimstone were scattered over it. And on the same day another sign appeared – in the wall of Edessa: there was a breach in the wall south of the Great Gate, the stones from that place being scattered to a considerable distance from it.

Okay, I'll add a new category "Dust Veil" since it can darken both sun and moon.

Also in the same year in November, three signs appeared in the sky in the middle of the day, as it were a rainbow appearing in the clouds, their curve(s) being turned downward and their end(s) upward. One of them (was seen) on the southern side, in the middle of the sky, the second to the east of it, and the third to the west (all) pointing towards the sky.

That would be an "Unusual Atmospheric Phenomena".

Also in the same year, in the month of January, another sign appeared in the sky, in the south-western corner, resembling a spear, which some people called the “Broom of Perdition”, while others called it the “Spear of War”.

That would be a comet.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Gaby, take a look at the changes I made to those entries.

I created a Dust/Ash Veil subcategory under Environment, and put the darkening of the sun there. I changed the keywords to "Darkening of Sun, Brimstone" which stood out to me as the significant factors. Brimstone might relate to a volcanic eruption/outgassing, or to comet/asteroid explosion/dispersal of dust. But, in any event, it is in the atmosphere which is part of the environment. We can't say for sure that it is celestial.

I changed the keywords on the comet entry: "Broom of Perdition, Spear of War".

The fire part, I put in "Conflagration" under Environment since it appears to have been on the earth and not specifically in the sky. I'm thinking that the "strange fire" category under "celestial" should be changed to "fire in the sky". Yes, the fire may be caused by falling debris, but they still occur within the atmosphere.

Let's look at the text and number the entries:

1) … many locusts came on the country and destroyed everything. … (Insect entry under Environment)

2) In the same year there was a violent and mighty earthquake. Nicopolis was destroyed by it, except for the church and the bishop’s house, and (Earthquake entry under geological)

3) it buried all its inhabitants…. Mass death entry under "society" (keywords: mass death, earthquake)

4) In the same year a sign like [a spear] appeared in the sky.

5) … And again on the very same day of (the appearance of) the sign and of the earthquake, the warm springs of Abarne stopped flowing for three days, and then returned (to flow) as previously.

6) Also the river Euphrates stopped its flow on the same day. (I've got to make a sub-category for this sort of thing)

Also the great temple of Arsamosata, on the day of a gathering there, fell as a result of the earthquake and caused many people to perish inside it. (Zuqnin) This will not be a separate entry because it is already covered by "Earthquake" and "Mass Death".

I've added a river/water table anomalies to "Geology".

I'm a bit confused because you seem to have double entries for 498 and 500 using the same text. Can you check it out and see what's going on? We have to be careful with this. We KNOW that the historians were confused, but if we can see that the same events were assigned by them to different years, we don't need to make the same mistake. We can pick the most likely year, and give it a +/- value of 1 year. Duplicating stuff like this will really mess up our graphs!!!

At that time there was an earthquake, and the hot spring of Abarnê dried out.

…The city of Nicopolis was destroyed, and buried all its inhabitants, except the bishop and his two private secretaries. We could see a comet for a long time.

…Again came the grasshoppers: they devastated (all), and

7) there was a hard and cruel famine throughout Mésopotamia. (famine under Society)

8) … At the same time we saw a large fire on the north side, which burnt through the whole night.

So, from the two texts, we get 8 separate entries.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

So, from the two texts, we get 8 separate entries.

I counted 8, okay. I'll double check in a moment because I think I got some events confused. I think I'm missing "Mass Deaths".

Then, the rainbow part, I noticed that we are missing the "Unusual Atmospheric Phenomena" as an entry. I have it now under Dust Veil and keyword "Unusual Atmospheric Phenomena".

Okay, I'll fix that.

I'm also thinking that I'll remove "Flora Out of Season" as a subcategory and just put anything along that line under "plant prodigies." Ya'll make sure that nothing is under "Flora out of season" before I delete it.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

In your "strange fire" of Constantinople, the text says:

1) At the time of Leon, there was in Constantinople the biggest fire ever. The fire was from the sea to the sea. The emperor fled beyond Mar Mâma and stayed there for 6 months … (that would be unusual conflagration under Environment. I changed it already.)

2) During the reign of Leon, ash fell like rain from the sky, and agglutinated on the ground and on the roofs, as thick as of a span. (Ash/Dust Veil under Environment)


3) ...At that time, Cyzicus was knocked down by an earthquake: it was completely destroyed (Earthquake)

4) and many of its inhabitants perished. A large number of towns and villages also fell, however they were not as destroyed as Cyzicus. (Mass Death under Society)

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I created "Atmospheric Prodigies" for unusual rainbows, the seeing of three or four suns, colors in the sky, etc. These are phenomena we are becoming familiar with ourselves these days and don't need to think that everything is a comet or comet tail!

Also, you don't need to enter "Mesopotamia" in the keywords. The location is already in a different field and that is too broad. If a specific city is destroyed or something like that, you might include the name. Only enter there such things as might be useful OTHERWISE in sorting the items.

Also, you have the following listed as a "volcanic eruption" with Constantinople as a keyword. That is very confusing. Is there a volcano specifically mentioned anywhere at that time in the text? No. There MAY be a volcanic eruption somewhere that we find from some other source at the time, but since it is not mentioned in this text, do not enter it as such. You are assuming that the effects are from a volcano but we don't know that.

Yes, the footnote says so, but we need to make that a separate entry with no relationship to this one and it should be based on some text like "Historical eruptions of Vesuvius." IF it falls in the same year, it will be a data point from a lateral source.

But Michael the Syrian says no such thing nor do his sources.

At the time of Leon, there was in Constantinople the biggest fire ever. The fire was from the sea to the sea. The emperor fled beyond Mar Mâma and stayed there for 6 months …
During the reign of Leon, ash fell like rain from the sky, and agglutinated on the ground and on the roofs, as thick as of a span. ...At that time, Cyzicus was knocked down by an earthquake: it was completely destroyed and many of its inhabitants perished. A large number of towns and villages also fell, however they were not as destroyed as Cyzicus.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Let me add this: Historians will make all kinds of footnotes in texts to explain away phenomena with no basis in fact whatsoever, just their assumption. "Oh, there was ash falling, must have been Vesuvius." This is what we have to combat, this tendency to normalize things when there is no valid evidence for it.

Most historians would rather blame death and destruction on wars and migrations NOT geological or cosmic events. I think I mentioned that somewhere or other. SO BE ON THE LOOKOUT for that sort of nonsense, not just from the ancient historians who were trying to cover up the "Wrath of God," but also from the recent ones!!!

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Also, you can't always trust archaeologists either. Excellent book:

http://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Earthquakes-Archaeology-Wrath-God/dp/069101602X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1392981022&sr=1-2&keywords=apocalypse+geology

What if Troy was not destroyed in the epic battle immortalized by Homer? What if many legendary cities of the ancient world did not meet their ends through war and conquest as archaeologists and historians believe, but in fact were laid waste by a force of nature so catastrophic that religions and legends describe it as the wrath of god? Apocalypse brings the latest scientific evidence to bear on biblical accounts, mythology, and the archaeological record to explore how ancient and modern earthquakes have shaped history--and, for some civilizations, seemingly heralded the end of the world.

Archaeologists are trained to seek human causes behind the ruins they study. Because of this, the subtle clues that indicate earthquake damage are often overlooked or even ignored. Amos Nur bridges the gap that for too long has separated archaeology and seismology. He examines tantalizing evidence of earthquakes at some of the world's most famous archaeological sites in the Mediterranean and elsewhere, including Troy, Jericho, Knossos, Mycenae, Armageddon, Teotihuacán, and Petra. He reveals what the Bible, the Iliad, and other writings can tell us about the seismic calamities that may have rocked the ancient world. He even explores how earthquakes may have helped preserve the Dead Sea Scrolls. As Nur shows, recognizing earthquake damage in the shifted foundations and toppled arches of historic ruins is vital today because the scientific record of world earthquake risks is still incomplete. Apocalypse explains where and why ancient earthquakes struck--and could strike again.

Thing is, historians are a couple of degrees deeper in the illusions than archaeologists. And even the above book doesn't deal with the cosmic factors, though it is a step away from "the barbarians did it."

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'm learning a lot with these entries...

Also, you have the following listed as a "volcanic eruption" with Constantinople as a keyword. That is very confusing. Is there a volcano specifically mentioned anywhere at that time in the text? No. There MAY be a volcanic eruption somewhere that we find from some other source at the time, but since it is not mentioned in this text, do not enter it as such. You are assuming that the effects are from a volcano but we don't know that.

Yes, the footnote says so, but we need to make that a separate entry with no relationship to this one and it should be based on some text like "Historical eruptions of Vesuvius." IF it falls in the same year, it will be a data point from a lateral source.

But Michael the Syrian says no such thing nor do his sources.

That makes sense, I see. I deleted that entry.

In your "strange fire" of Constantinople, the text says:

1) At the time of Leon, there was in Constantinople the biggest fire ever. The fire was from the sea to the sea. The emperor fled beyond Mar Mâma and stayed there for 6 months … (that would be unusual conflagration under Environment. I changed it already.)

2) During the reign of Leon, ash fell like rain from the sky, and agglutinated on the ground and on the roofs, as thick as of a span. (Ash/Dust Veil under Environment)


3) ...At that time, Cyzicus was knocked down by an earthquake: it was completely destroyed (Earthquake)

4) and many of its inhabitants perished. A large number of towns and villages also fell, however they were not as destroyed as Cyzicus. (Mass Death under Society)

Okay,

1)Mass Conflagration under Environment (done/fixed)
2)Ash/Dust Veil under Environment (created)
3) Earthquake, Cyzicus (done)
4) Mass Death under Society (created)

In this last one I see that the entry is called Pestilence/Mass Death under Society.

Do we want to separate these to differentiate people dying from the plague and people dying from Earthquakes? Or is it best as it is since it can be hard to tell?

Next, I'll continue with my learning curve with the other 8 entry writing...

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'm a bit confused because you seem to have double entries for 498 and 500 using the same text. Can you check it out and see what's going on? We have to be careful with this. We KNOW that the historians were confused, but if we can see that the same events were assigned by them to different years, we don't need to make the same mistake. We can pick the most likely year, and give it a +/- value of 1 year. Duplicating stuff like this will really mess up our graphs!!!

I see. The entries of 498 are from Michael the Syrian and the ones from 500 are from Zuqnin. The only repeating event in both accounts are the "Spear of War", "Broom of Perdition". So I count a total of 10 entries for this event:

498 from Michael the Syrian

1) … many locusts came on the country and destroyed everything. … (Insect entry under Environment)

2) In the same year there was a violent and mighty earthquake. Nicopolis was destroyed by it, except for the church and the bishop’s house, and (Earthquake entry under geological)

3) it buried all its inhabitants…. Mass death entry under "society" (keywords: mass death, earthquake)

4) In the same year a sign like [a spear] appeared in the sky. [This is what Zuqnin refers to as the "Broom of Perdition", "Spear of War"]

5) … And again on the very same day of (the appearance of) the sign and of the earthquake, the warm springs of Abarne stopped flowing for three days, and then returned (to flow) as previously.(River/water table under Geology)

6) Also the river Euphrates stopped its flow on the same day. (River/water table under Geology)

Also the great temple of Arsamosata, on the day of a gathering there, fell as a result of the earthquake and caused many people to perish inside it. (Zuqnin) it is already covered

At that time there was an earthquake, and the hot spring of Abarnê dried out.it is already covered

…The city of Nicopolis was destroyed, and buried all its inhabitants, except the bishop and his two private secretaries. We could see a comet for a long time.it is already covered

…Again came the grasshoppers: they devastated (all), and it is already covered

7) there was a hard and cruel famine throughout Mésopotamia. (famine under Society)

8) … At the same time we saw a large fire on the north side, which burnt through the whole night. (Conflagration under Environment)

And now with Zuqnin's version in 500:

9)…on the 23rd of the month of October, on Saturday, the sun darkened for eight hours. The earth was covered by dust as if ash or brimstone were scattered over it. Dust/Ash Veil under Environment

And on the same day another sign appeared – in the wall of Edessa: there was a breach in the wall south of the Great Gate, the stones from that place being scattered to a considerable distance from it. [? separate entry?]

10) Also in the same year in November, three signs appeared in the sky in the middle of the day, as it were a rainbow appearing in the clouds, their curve(s) being turned downward and their end(s) upward. One of them (was seen) on the southern side, in the middle of the sky, the second to the east of it, and the third to the west (all) pointing towards the sky. Atmospheric Prodigies under Environment

Also in the same year, in the month of January, another sign appeared in the sky, in the south-western corner, resembling a spear, which some people called the “Broom of Perdition”, while others called it the “Spear of War”. Comet under Celestial, point 4)

And then the Chronicle of the Fall continues...

501
… there was a famine, (an attack of) locusts and a severe plague. (Zuqnin)

And so forth.

So from what I understand, if all this is referring to the same event, I should be careful not to repeat.

I also noticed that the entry is called "Pestilence/Mass Death under Society". Maybe we want to separate Mass Death from Earthquakes from Pestilence/Plague?

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Yes, by examining them we can see that they are the same event.

Notice how Zuqnin has avoided mentioning the earthquake and just says "there was a breach in the wall south of the Great Gate, the stones from that place being scattered to a considerable distance from it."

As for Mass Death/Pestilence, I think we'll just keep it for earthquakes too since earthquakes MIGHT be due to cometary bombardment and recall that "pestilence" simply means "death from the stars." We can also use it for mass drownings as in tsunamis for the same reason. The only other one we have is "massacre" where the mass death is clearly inflicted by other humans.

Unless somebody has a good objection.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

As for Mass Death/Pestilence, I think we'll just keep it for earthquakes too since earthquakes MIGHT be due to cometary bombardment and recall that "pestilence" simply means "death from the stars." We can also use it for mass drownings as in tsunamis for the same reason. The only other one we have is "massacre" where the mass death is clearly inflicted by other humans.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Hopefully, all of you making entries can learn from this complex text Gaby was working with and see how careful you need to be when you make the entries. You need to look in the timeline of the table for anything already entered within a couple years either way of what you intend to enter to see if something similar has been described by another source and erroneously given a wrong dating either by that source, or by the historian analyst or translator.

In fact, it may simply be exactly this sort of thing: different sources picking and choosing what they will include and leaving out important elements, and then the dates getting messed up, that have dramatically elongated the timeline of history. After all, five years here, two or three there, ten another place, done by 10 different historians, and we would have our 200+ years accounted for without having to say that somebody arbitrarily added 200 or 300 years at some point. We may just need to close things up like a paper fan or something.

At the same time, we need to realize that there was a LOT going on, from year to year to year. It was just one freaking disaster after another, place after place.