Historical Events Database - History

[kanader]

Re: Historical Events Database

Here's an article about leprosy that pronounces the Bible extract as incomprehensible in light of what is actually known about leprosy. So they were obviously talking about some other highly contagious, plague-like disease there.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Popular_Science_Monthly/Volume_24/April_1884/Biblical_and_Modern_Leprosy

Now, there are certain affections of the skin, met with at the present day, to which the expression " white as snow " would be applicable, but leprosy is not one of them. Indeed, in this disease, the skin usually becomes dark rather than light in color, and in none of the few score of cases which I have had the oppor- tunity of observing would the phrase " white as snow " be other than highly inappropriate.

The somewhat detailed description of leprosy which is found in the thirteenth chapter of Leviticus is almost unintelligible in the light of our present knowledge, and, after making due allowance for the neces- sarily imperfect translation of the Hebrew scriptures, we are forced to believe that Moses associated leprosy with other diseases, as many dis- tinguished medical writers have done in later years. Indeed, it is only during the past few decades that the disease has been carefully studied in various parts of the world and its identity thoroughly established.

In studying the Mosaic laws respecting leprosy, we find statements made and directions given for its recognition by the priests who could not have referred to the disease which we now call leprosy. For instance, it is stated that if the leprosy cover the whole skin of him that hath the plague, the priest shall pronounce him clean. This would hardly apply to modern leprosy, which never involves the whole skin, as far as my observation goes. But there are other cutaneous affec- tions which frequently do cover the afflicted subject "from his head even to his foot." Why the leper should have been pronounced un- clean while the disease was spreading, and clean when it had reached that point where further spreading was impossible, I will leave for others to determine, merely remarking that a law which permitted only such lepers within the camp as were covered by the disease from head to foot could certainly not have had a sanitary origin. Further- more, the rule that the leper should be shut up for seven days, and then examined by the priest, with a view to noting the change that had taken place in the mean time, would seem to indicate some other dis- ease than modern leprosy, for the latter is extremely chronic in its course, and never presents any noticeable change in so short a time even under the most active treatment. What was meant by the ref- erence to leprosy of clothing and of houses is now difficult to under- stand. There are infectious diseases at the present day, the germs of which may dwell for a time in clothing and the walls of houses, but there is nothing in connection with the modern leprosy which would justify us in believing that it ever infects an inanimate object.

On the other hand, if we assume that the leprosy of ancient times was identical with that of the present day, it seems strange that Moses failed to mention the loss of sensation, the deformity of the hands, and other features which are the most striking characteristics of the dis- ease. That the leprosy which I have described has not changed its type in the course of centuries, as other diseases have done in a com- paratively short time, is shown by the fact that some of the earliest medical descriptions are so correct that they might answer their pur- pose in a modern text-book, and we are therefore led to the conclusion that Moses, though possessing all the learning of the Egyptian priests, including the highest medical knowledge of his age, did not note the distinctive characteristics of leprosy, but classed it under one name with other prevalent diseases.

So, we are still without an answer as to what kind of stuff could get on clothes and then make a person sick so that they died rather quickly unless it is just simply something that falls from the sky.

What about smallpox ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox

The timing of the arrival of smallpox in Europe and south-western Asia is less clear. Smallpox is not clearly described in either the Old or New Testaments of the Bible or in the literature of the Greeks or Romans. While some have identified the Plague of Athens – which was said to have originated in "Ethiopia" and Egypt – or the plague that lifted Carthage's 396 BC siege of Syracuse with smallpox,[2] many scholars agree it is very unlikely such a serious disease as variola major would have escaped being described by Hippocrates if it had existed in the Mediterranean region during his lifetime.[52] While the Antonine Plague that swept through the Roman Empire in AD 165–180 may have been caused by smallpox,[53] Saint Nicasius of Rheims became the patron saint of smallpox victims for having supposedly survived a bout in 450,[2] and Saint Gregory of Tours recorded a similar outbreak in France and Italy in 580, the first use of the term variola;[2] other historians speculate that Arab armies first carried smallpox from Africa into Southwestern Europe during the 7th and 8th centuries.[24] In the 9th century the Persian physician, Rhazes, provided one of the most definitive descriptions of smallpox and was the first to differentiate smallpox from measles and chickenpox in his Kitab fi al-jadari wa-al-hasbah (The Book of Smallpox and Measles).[54] During the Middle Ages, smallpox made periodic incursions into Europe but did not become established there until the population increased and population movement became more active during the era of the Crusades. By the 16th century smallpox had become well established across most of Europe.[24] With its introduction into populated areas in India, China and Europe, smallpox affected mainly children, with periodic epidemics that killed as many as 30% of those infected. The settled existence of smallpox in Europe was of particular historical importance, since successive waves of exploration and colonization by Europeans tended to spread the disease to other parts of the world. By the 16th century it had become an important cause of morbidity and mortality throughout much of the world.[24]

This guy here has an interesting theory....

Smallpox, Exodus, and Troy
by Tom Slattery




How I Found an Ancient Smallpox Pandemic

Something Pretty Awful Happened
In the twelfth century BC, something happened that initiated a long, deep dark age, probably the longest and deepest dark age known to history. Some of the books that I was going through in the open stacks of a university library offered up conjectures like barbarians with new iron weapons overthrowing ancient empires, or Viking-like Sea Peoples raiders destroying them. But the Bronze Age lasted years after this and genuinely useful iron was centuries into the future. And some ancient imperial capitals, like that of the Hittites, were too far inland for Viking-like sea raiders to topple. I puzzled over incongruities like this for years and kept going through books.

Then I came across a book on a variety of ancient mummies from all over the world. And in it was a photograph of the pharaoh Rameses V, who died, according to one of the two main Egyptian chronologies, in 1154 B.C., smack-dab in the middle of the catastrophic 12th century B.C. The photograph showed mummified blisters.

New ideas often seem easy and obvious after they are known. They come easily to our human minds, but they do not come all that easily. If they did, we might have had automobiles, parking lots, traffic signals, noxious exhaust fumes, road rage, traffic deaths, global warming, and other nice things maybe a million years ago.

My new idea of a smallpox pandemic wiping out the Old World civilization of the Bronze Age seemed convincing. But what might there be besides the mummified skin of Rameses V? Well, it turned out that there was very little else. I went back through things, and there was nothing in conventional history of archaeology to suggest a civilization-ending smallpox pandemic in the 12th century B.C.

But this search took me to biblical references. The religion-oriented stories in the Old Testament are not the best historical sources, but fragments of history have clearly been preserved in them. However, there's a problem of dating. History needs dates. When might the Exodus have taken place? When might the fall of Jericho have occurred?

Eclipses, Leprosy, and a Durable Bug
by Tom Slattery





There is a curious astronomical reference in Joshua 10:12, "Sun stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon." And in Joshua 10:13, "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed . . . So the Sun stood still in the midst of heaven and hast not to go down about a whole day." Believe what you may, but this would defy all known physical laws if true.

One can, however, guess that these passages may have originally been references to a solar eclipse. At Gibeon, the visual appearance of the sun may have appeared different from the typical crescent-moon shape seen in an eclipse at Ajalon. Due to the eclipse, darkness could have come, and then the sun rose in the middle of the sky at noon. The event would have been preserved by oral ballads until it was written down in the new Hebrew script centuries later. By then the story had changed, as stories do with repeated tellings. We may have a garbled version of an actual solar eclipse?

There was a solar eclipse in the region on September 30, 1131 B.C.

Few have used this to pin down a date for the Exodus and subsequent events, but in the context of a smallpox pandemic it turns out to be compelling. The flight into the Sinai would have taken place somewhere between a decade and several decades earlier, 1141, 1151, 1161, or maybe more.

If Rameses V died of smallpox in 1154 B.C., the epidemic would probably have been raging for some time before the protected pharaoh came down with the disease. Maybe it struck Egypt as early as c. 1161.

This close correspondence in reasonable dates is bolstered by more. A smallpox epidemic would explain the ease with which a band fresh from surviving in the desert could take over fortified Canaan, a country under at least some additional protection by the powerful Imperial Egyptian Army. Canaan would seem to have been devastated by something like a smallpox pandemic.

Moreover, there are some passages that seem to refer to smallpox. The disease called tsara'at in Hebrew has been translated as "leprosy." No one now knows exactly what tsara'at was. The meaning of the word has been lost. But it is clearly a disease that, unlike leprosy, takes very little time to produce death. Tsara'at is described as a disease of "swelling" (se'et) as used for local inflamations, boils, or mole-like appearances, and "breaking out" (saphahat) as used for rashes.Spies are sent from the Sinai into Canaan. They bring back the dread disease and it would appear to quickly spread through the Sinai encampment. Numbers 14 would seem to graphically allude to "carcasses" wasting in the desert as if from an epidemic. Miriam gets this strange disease. When the tabernacle (probably something like a Bedouin tent) blows open, she is seen as "leprous, white as snow," as if in a stage of smallpox when fluid from the blisters has been absorbed and dead white flesh remains. There are also suggestions of quarantine measures and other strategies against an unknown infectious disease.

One can at least entertain the idea that a smallpox epidemic was raging at this time. And it begins to fit with a larger picture.

Not far from Canaan was Troy. Perhaps a lost metaphor for the famous siege of Troy -- maybe known to Homer, but lost on us -- was that the armed confrontation represented the folly of the last battle before civilization completely collapsed, that only heroic deeds mattered as nature was spreading death and doom to everything that everyone had lived for. The siege may even have been taking place as a smallpox pandemic was spreading into the Aegean.

What, for instance, was the vague "plague" that struck the besiegers? Could a possible lone occupant of the Trojan Horse have been an infected person who would spread havoc throughout citadel Troy? Or maybe no one was in it. Maybe it was just an infected statue? Smallpox stays infectious on something for up to 60 days. In the context of a smallpox pandemic, one can wonder.

At any rate, a smallpox pandemic would appear to have been raging across the Old World within the time frame of the Fall of Troy and the Exodus. Not only did the Achaean Greek civilization collapse after the battle of Troy, the highly sophisticated New Kingdom Egyptian civilization collapsed not long after the death of Rameses V, the Hittites vanished forever, and way over in China, the Shang Dynasty collapsed. In Mesopotamia the picture is a little less clear. But something happened. Within not too many years of this time the old civilizations there collapsed and were replaced by new versions.

And a dark age does appear to have followed this time. Sophisticated civilization gave way to survival society for a long time. Old written languages disappeared. New ones were invented centuries later. And in two of these, Greek and Hebrew, we get an idea of what the people emerging out of a dark age may have retained from the civilizations that had been virtually eradicated centuries earlier.

The Bronze Age did not immediately come to an end. A great many people appear to have died, and there was plenty of metal for the survivors for centuries until population returned to pre-catastrophe levels. During those centuries, experiments with iron-making seem to have been going forward. When demand created an incentive, breakthroughs seem to have occurred and the technical knowledge spread. The Bronze Age was over.
I titled my book The Tragic End of the Bronze Age: A Virus Makes History.

To be honest, i didn't check the author background or read what he wrote as of yet. It could be nothing. I was planning on reading a Little bit more about smallpox tonight when i get home.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

It would probably be best, at this point, that entries from different chronicles should be kept separate UNLESS YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that an entry is exactly the same as another, and you are just adding another witness. If there are enough variations in the event to raise any question, make a separate entry! We'll be able to comb the data later after we have a visual graph of what is there.

This was a little bit of a headache because there are at least 3 other sources which were merged with entries of Michael the Syrian. So for future reference, these are the changes that I did.

In synthesis:

1) Re-created original entries of Michael the Syrian.
2) Clarified that we are assuming that the other sources are related with the events that Michael the Syrian was describing. It sure does look that way, but future checking is appreciated.
3) Polished a little bit the sources and their entries.

For the record...

Now, the entries for 460 AD were modified to specify the following:

About the same time, when the Scythian war was gathering against the Easter, Romans, an earthquake visited Thrace, the Hellespont, Ionia, and the islands called Cyclades, so severe as to cause a universal overthrow in Cnidus and Cos. Priscus also records the occurrence of excessive rains about Constantinople and Bithynia, which descended like torrents for three or four days; when hills were swept down to the plains, and villages carried away by the deluge: islands also were formed in lake {there was a typo here, it said "like"} Boane, not far from Nicomedia, by the masses of rubbish brought down by the waters. This evil, however, was subsequent to the former. The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus

Evagrius dates these events to the time of the Scythian war, i.e. conflict between the empire and the Ostrogoths in 459-60.

Marcellinus Comes, op cit, p21 :

"The town of Cyzicus was shaken by an earthquake and since its surrounding walls had crumbled it mourned for itseld and its people for a long time"

{Created respective earthquake events, landslide event, flood event was updated. The Scythian war could be another entry, but I'm not sure about the location.}
{I took the Cyzicus earthquake from Michael the Syrian's chronicle, see below}

Okay, so these texts were merged with the following one I was working with:

Michael the Syrian, Book IX – Chapter IV, p142

457-474

"At the time of Leon, there was in Constantinople the biggest fire ever. The fire was from the sea to the sea. The emperor fled beyond Mar Mâma and stayed there for 6 months …

During the reign of Leon, ash fell like rain from the sky, and agglutinated on the ground and on the roofs, as thick as of a span. ...At that time, Cyzicus was knocked down by an earthquake: it was completely destroyed and many of its inhabitants perished. A large number of towns and villages also fell, however they were not as destroyed as Cyzicus. "

We have now 1 entry for earthquake: Cyzicus, Thrace, Hellespont, Ionia, Cyclades,Cnidus, Cos. I think I should create one entry per each city? I don't know if it all happened on the same day, if that is the case, it does seem like a hell of an earthquake with so many cities affected all throughout the region. Considering the fire falling from the sky, could this be a Tunguska-like event?

There used to be Mass Death for Cyzicus, but now it is gone. So I'll create that again.

{I re-created these entries as originally made from Michael the Syrian's source: Earthquake and Mass Death for Cyzicus, Falling Fire/Conflagration for Constantinople}

[...]

The events for the fire are still there (entry n. 363), but that entry changed to reflect The Chronicle of John Bishop of Nikiu which is an earlier author:

And after the death of Marcian, Leo the elder became emperor. And in the days of his rule the city of Antioch was polluted owing to the earthquake that befell it. And lightning rained from heaven on Constantinople instead of rain. And it rose high, upon the roofs. And all the people were terrified and offered up prayers and supplications to God; for that lightning had been burning fire; but God out of His love for man had extinguished the fire and made it lightning.

I noticed it is now under Plasma Event with "Conflagration, lightning,burning fire" as keywords. But I think it should be "Falling Fire" (?).

{I left this plasma event.}

{I didn't create a Tunguska-like event, instead, reports for earthquakes, conflagration, falling fire and plasma events are recorded from its sources}

The following entries are from the same time period (entry, user, category, year, source, location, keywords):

449 zadig Environment Atmospheric Prodigies Y457 M5 D28 Hydatius The Chronicle of Hydatius and the Consularia Constantinopolitana Spain Sun light diminished, Spain

149 zadig Geology Earthquake Y457 M9 D14 Anonymous Chronicle to the Year 724 - 640AD Antioch 36.2014 36.1618 Fearful earthquake

731 zadig Geology Earthquake Y460 M6 D19 Anonymous Chronicle to the Year 724 - 640AD Antioch Earth quaked and shuddered

355 gaby Geology Earthquake Y457 Michael the Syrian Chronique de Michel le Syrien Tripoli Shook the whole world

From entry 731 there is this under "other notes":

Hydatius dates an earthquake in 462 in Antiochia in Isauria, probably the same event : (The Chronicle of Hydatius and the Consularia Constantinopolitana, p. 115)

"That day was a Friday. Greater Antioch in Isauria, paying no heed to the warnings for its salvation, was swallowed up when the earth split open, and all that remained above the ground was the tops of the towers."

I can create Sinkhole under Geology for this one.

Sinkhole for this source is still pending, I'm not sure about the chronology in the book

So Zadig and I should probably keep an eye on this since it was his sources from older authors that met with Michael the Syrian's chronicle.

Again, hope it is not confusing.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I've been working on a post for a couple of hours and lost the whole damn thing. I guess I wasn't being entirely coherent with my idea I was having today. So I'll let it cook a little longer and see how I feel about it later.

Meanwhile, this book appears to be impossible to purchase or find except in a library.

The chronicle of John Malalas : a translation
by John Malalas; Elizabeth Jeffreys; et al

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

So Zadig and I should probably keep an eye on this since it was his sources from older authors that met with Michael the Syrian's chronicle.

Again, hope it is not confusing.

Yes. Let's leave the serious editing and combining for later when we have time to pull some stats and look at things more carefully. Right now, let's just make sure we have adequate text in all entries for context, add any notes if you notice things, try to get sources correctly cited as well as possible, check spelling etc. Standardize spelling and try to standardize keywords if possible. Obviously, some things are so bizarre you just have to use the main words that describe it.

It's raining like the dickens here right now and has been raining off and on all day and blowing like crazy too. Makes a ghost sound in the roof. So I'm getting the feeling that I'm living in Gregory's Gaul!

I'm also getting so frustrated about all the confusion within the sources that I'm thinking about setting up the old pschomantium and going time traveling!

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Historical Events Database

So Zadig and I should probably keep an eye on this since it was his sources from older authors that met with Michael the Syrian's chronicle.

Again, hope it is not confusing.

Yes. Let's leave the serious editing and combining for later when we have time to pull some stats and look at things more carefully. Right now, let's just make sure we have adequate text in all entries for context, add any notes if you notice things, try to get sources correctly cited as well as possible, check spelling etc. Standardize spelling and try to standardize keywords if possible. Obviously, some things are so bizarre you just have to use the main words that describe it.

It's raining like the dickens here right now and has been raining off and on all day and blowing like crazy too. Makes a ghost sound in the roof. So I'm getting the feeling that I'm living in Gregory's Gaul!

I'm also getting so frustrated about all the confusion within the sources that I'm thinking about setting up the old pschomantium and going time traveling!

Sounds like a good day for it. ;D Hang in there.

I can't wrap my head around some of these guys, its worse that gossip in an old time church.

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

So Zadig and I should probably keep an eye on this since it was his sources from older authors that met with Michael the Syrian's chronicle.

Again, hope it is not confusing.

The events between 457 and 460 are a big mess.

I am sure of one thing : there was an huge earthquake or cometary impact.

-First problem : dating : the earthquake in Antioch was in 457, 458 or 459.

The primary sources said that it was in September 457 (Nikiu: year of the death of Marcion, i.e. 457 ; and Chronicle to 724 AD in AG 767, i.e. October 456-september 457)

The moderns in September 458. http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/nndc/struts/results?eq_0=116&t=101650&s=13&d=22,26,13,12&nd=display

Malalas is alone, he gives September 459 AD during the the consulship of Patricius.

Second problem: probability that the events in 457/458 and 459-460 are the same event.

Because only Evagrius reports 2 events in 457/458 and a deluge in 459/460.

Others sources talk about one big earthquake in Antioch and a big conflagration in Constantinople one or two years later. (Theophanes, Malalas, and Marcellinus only one earthquake in 459/460).

Also probability that the so-called Deluge of 459/460 is a doubloon of 447, same gegraphical area (see your entry)

330 gaby Geology Earthquake Y447 M1 D26 Whitby, Micheale The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus Constantinople Long Wall of the Chersonese collapsed

331 gaby Geology Tsunami Y447 M1 D26 Whitby, Micheale The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus Bithynia, Hellespont, Phrygia Tsunami, Bithynia, Hellespont, Phrygia

874 gaby Geology Earthquake Y459 1y Evagrius Scholasticus The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus Cnidus, Cos Destruction

875 gaby Geology Earthquake Y459 1y Evagrius Scholasticus The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus Ionia Ionia

365 gaby Geology Earthquake Y459 1y Evagrius Scholasticus The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus Thrace, Hellespont Thrace, Hellespont

879 gaby Geology Landslide Y459 1y Evagrius Scholasticus The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus Constantinople, Bithynia Deluge

381 gaby Environment Flood Y459 1y Evagrius Scholasticus The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus Constantinople, Bithynia Sheets of rain

447 AD
At this period the much-reported war was stirred up by Attila the King of the Scythians. This the rhetor Priscus recorded comprehensively and with exceptional learning, narrating with great elegance how he campaigned against both eastern and western regions, which cities and how many he captured and destroyed, and after how many achievements he departed this world.

Now, while the same Theodosius was wielding the scepters, a very great, extraordinary earthquake, one that surpassed its predecessors, occurred throughtout the whole in habited world, so to speak, with the result that many of the towers at the royal city were laid flat, and the so-called Long Wall of the Chersonese collapsed; the earth gaped and many villages sank into it; again there were many, indeed innumerable misfortunes both on land and at sea; and whereas some springs were rendered dry, elsewhere a quantity of water was sent up where there was none previously, entire trees were upturned roots and all, and numerous mounds were instantly turned into mountains; the sea hurled up corpses of fish and many of the islands in it were swamped; again, sea-going ships were seen on dry land when the waters retreated back. Much of Bithynia and Hellespont and both Phrygias suffered. The disaster gripped the earth for a time, not continuing so violently as at the beginning but gradually weakening until it had completely ceased.

460 AD
About the same time, when the Scythian war was gathering against the Easter, Romans, an earthquake visited Thrace, the Hellespont, Ionia, and the islands called Cyclades, so severe as to cause a universal overthrow in Cnidus and Cos. Priscus also records the occurrence of excessive rains about Constantinople and Bithynia, which descended like torrents for three or four days; when hills were swept down to the plains, and villages carried away by the deluge: islands also were formed in like Boane, not far from Nicomedia, by the masses of rubbish brought down by the waters. This evil, however, was subsequent to the former

Also the earthquakes in 458 and 460 by Chronicle to the Year 724 are also doubloons.

On Hydatius : The earthquake in Isauria is a doubloon of the earthquake of 458. Why? Because Hydatius is a Spanish chronicler, he almost never talks about the East, and when he talks about the East he reports a so-called earthquake in a completely lost town in Anatolia. No western and eastern sources talk about this earthquake. I’m 99% that it’s a doubloon. Why a Spaniard will report an unknown earthquake when there is a huge earthquake four years earlier (80 000 deaths)?

I don't know what you think, but after reviewing the evidence, if the earthquake really "shook the whole world" to quote MtS, I think we are in front of a single event.

Anyway, it's also probable that the same area might have been struck by earthquakes 10 years later.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: Historical Events Database

I've been working on a post for a couple of hours and lost the whole damn thing. I guess I wasn't being entirely coherent with my idea I was having today. So I'll let it cook a little longer and see how I feel about it later.

Meanwhile, this book appears to be impossible to purchase or find except in a library.

The chronicle of John Malalas : a translation
by John Malalas; Elizabeth Jeffreys; et al

Found it. Emailing it to you right now.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Re: Historical Events Database

I've been working on a post for a couple of hours and lost the whole damn thing. I guess I wasn't being entirely coherent with my idea I was having today. So I'll let it cook a little longer and see how I feel about it later.

Meanwhile, this book appears to be impossible to purchase or find except in a library.

The chronicle of John Malalas : a translation
by John Malalas; Elizabeth Jeffreys; et al

Found it. Emailing it to you right now.

Ah, I found it, too, and emailed it to her before seeing your post.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

[...]

It's raining like the dickens here right now and has been raining off and on all day and blowing like crazy too. Makes a ghost sound in the roof. So I'm getting the feeling that I'm living in Gregory's Gaul!

I'm also getting so frustrated about all the confusion within the sources that I'm thinking about setting up the old pschomantium and going time traveling!

Sounds like a good day for it. ;D Hang in there.

I can't wrap my head around some of these guys, its worse that gossip in an old time church.

The wind is blowing like crazy here too. I finished reading last night "Life Between Life" which ends with an exercise on how to do past life regression. I accidentally ended up dreaming that I was entering a big temple with books while working on the historical database. It is surreal, but at least it is fun

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

So Zadig and I should probably keep an eye on this since it was his sources from older authors that met with Michael the Syrian's chronicle.

Again, hope it is not confusing.

The events between 457 and 460 are a big mess.

I am sure of one thing : there was an huge earthquake or cometary impact.

It does look like it is part of the same thing... 447-460AD. An earthquake affecting so many cities spread throughout such a distance sounds fishy. Add the flooding, lightning and the fire falling... And I notice there was a dimming of the sun event in Spain. Your post and my previous one are a good record of the discussions and/or issues with these years. Hopefully this will get clarified.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database


Here's what I think is the best way to deal with it for now:

If it really looks like the same event, take the date of the earliest source and put that date on all the doublets. BUT, put a note in the right hand text box at the top that the source being quoted actually had the date as something else, but because it appears to be a doublet of the first source (give name), it has been reassigned. That's pretty much what I did with my PtD and GoT yesterday. Check to see how I did it.

What this will do is: when we sort by years and start scrolling through, we'll see these things and see how to connect them.

Also, as you can guess, keywords will be important especially if you can use them to match up events. I've got a couple from Gregory yesterday that I'm going to reassign because in both of them, boats were mentioned as being destroyed by a flood. So if you put in the right keywords, things like that will stand out.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

Sounds like a good plan. I can do this tomorrow after a good night sleep.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

Sounds like a good plan. I can do this tomorrow after a good night sleep.

I realized we are talking about doublets by the same source: Evagrius Scholasticus.

I was using Chronicle of the Fall which had "The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus" by Whitby Michael for my entries for the year 447 AD.

Then I noticed that Zadig was using a 2011 kindle version "The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus translated by Edward Walford" which he used for entries related to the years 459-460 which met with Michael the Syrian's chronicle I was quoting. I used Zadig's quoted texts from this kindle version to fix the events related to those years but I actually don't have that book.

I don't have the sources of Hydatius and Nikiu either, so I'll leave those alone too before creating more confusion.

So these events would need more thought:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg477566.html#msg477566
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg477541.html#msg477541

This is what the Whitby Michael translation says regarding the text Zadig used:

At the same time, while a Scythian war was in progress against the
eastern Romans, the lands of Thrace and the Hellespont were shaken, as
well as Ionia and the islands called Cyclades,withthe result that much of
Cnidus and of the Cretan island was levelled. 143 And Priscus narrates
that there were extraordinary rains in Constantinople and the province
of Bithynia, since for three or four days water poured like a torrent from
heaven; and that mountains were levelled into plains, that villages were
inundated and destroyed, and that islands even appeared in the lake of
Boane, not far distant from Nicomedia, from the multitude of rubbish
that was accumulated in it.But these things occurred later.144

Note 143 The date is uncertain. M. Henry, cited in Mango and Scott,
Theophanes 150, n. 1 ad. A.M.5934, speculates that the tremors should be dated to Theodosius II’s reign and linked
with the quake on Crete recorded by Malalas 359:15-18; this is possible, although there is no
reason to doubt that the same area might have been struck by earthquakes a couple of
decades apart. The Scythian war may refer to attacks by Attila’s son, Dengizich, who was
fighting the Romans in 467 and again in 469. Festugière (271n.88, following Stein) attributed
the destruction in Thrace to these Huns and that in the Aegean area to Vandals who raided
the eastern Mediterranean in 467; but there is no mention here of Vandals, and the language
of shaking and levelling is more appropriate to an earthquake. The chapter continues with
other natural disasters, which also suggests that the first part describes an earthquake.

Note 144 Blockley, Historians II. 354-6 printed the whole of this chapter as Priscus fr. 48.2, though admitting (397) that, strictly, Evagrius’ reference to Priscus only relates to the deluge; there is no other evidence to allow the deluge to be dated.

I don't know what Edward Walford's translations says. For now, at least the entries in the database have the different sources quoted: Michael the Syrian, Evagrius by Michael Whitby (447 AD), Evagrius by Walford (459-460 AD), Hydatius, Nikku... It should make sense.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database


I'm still slogging through a comparison between GoT, PtD and now, adding in Malalas since it seems obvious that Gregory had access to eastern chronicle information. I'll be back to making entries soon, hopefully with something to show for the analyses.

Meanwhile, I was cleaning my mail folders and came across the email from Walter Goffart, author of "The Narratives of Barbarian History" and other works. He was responding to my GoT problem.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: The gap filled by Gregory of Tours - a strange coincidence
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:30:29 -0400
From: Walter Goffart <redacted>
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk <redacted>


Dear Laura:
Thank you for your message.
As to your question, I see what your table tells and can't account for it except by the obvious supposition that other sources are lacking for the years that Gregory describes. That doesn't seem wholly satisfactory, to say the least, but is there anywhere else to go? It stands to reason that there were plenty of natural occurrences elsewhere than in Gaul.
So, I really can't help you. Good luck with your research.
Best wishes,
Walter

Walter Goffart
{Address etc. redacted for privacy}

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

So these events would need more thought:

I found the Whitby's edition.

If anyone is interested, I found Michael the Syrian in English : http://rbedrosian.com/Msyr/msyrtoc.html

There is an additional problem with Evagrius : he talks about 3 flood in the same area in 447 – 455 and 460. It looks like a triplet.

455:

During these times a dearth of rainwater occurred in Phrygia and Galatia and Cappadocia and Cilicia, so that from shortage of necessities men partook even of more harmful nourishment; consequently plague too arose. They fell sick from the change of diet, and as their bodies became bloated from excess of inflammation they lost their sight, coughing supervened, and on the third day they departed life. And for the time being it was impossible to discover a remedy for the plague, but the universal savior Providence granted relief from the famine for the survivors, by pouring down nourishment from the sky in the unproductive year, as for the Israelites (that was called manna), while in the following year granting that crops be brought to fruition of their own accord. These things were allocated also to the province of Palestine and many other, indeed innumerable places, since the afflictions were traveling around the earth.

You add :

Evagrius is the only source for these disasters. I’ve placed it in the year 455 because the very next paragraph opens with: While these things were progressing in the East, in the elder Rome Aetius was removed from men in cowardly fashion; also Velentinian, the emperior of the western regions, and along with him Haraclius were killed by some of Aetius’ bodyguards. Valentinian III, died 16 March 455.

Marcellinus

: In this consulship (Varanes and John) countless swarms of locust destroyed the crops of Phrygia.

I add

There is no other evidence for this plague of locusts, but congruent with the destruction in Evagrius Scholasticus.

Anyway, I tried to find the best dating for the events between 458 – 472 and my best proposition is :

457 : Spain, darkness of the sun.

September 458, earthquake Antioch. I take the modern date :

September 11, 458, 4th hour of the night. Antioch, also felt throughout Asia Minor, and in Thrace. (reference #521)

September 458, Antioch, 80,000 victims, intensity IX. (reference #1222)

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/nndc/struts/results?eq_0=116&t=101650&s=13&d=22,26,13,12&nd=display

Evagrius, MtS, Malalas, Agapius, Theophanes, Nikiu say all the same thing.

The earthquake was also felt throughout Asia Minor and Thrace, so I put the earthquake in Cyzicus in 458.

Marcellinus Comes,

"The town of Cyzicus was shaken by an earthquake and since its surrounding walls had crumbled it mourned for itseld and its people for a long time"

MtS
At that time, Cyzicus was knocked down by an earthquake: it was completely destroyed and many of its inhabitants perished. A large number of towns and villages also fell, however they were not as destroyed as Cyzicus.

In the beginning I thought that the earthquake in Tripoli was the same event than the earthquake in 458. But Malalas and Mts talk about two events, one earthquake during Marcian's reign, i.e. 450-457, and the other during Leo’s reign, i.e. 458.

MtS
In Marcianus time there was a violent earthquake that shook more or less all the inhabited earth. In this earthquake the Phoenician city of Tripoli was completely knocked over.

Malalas
During his reign the city known as Tripolis in Phoenice Maritima suffered from the wrath of God, at night, in the month of Gorpiaios. He restored the summer bath known as the Ikaros, which had collapsed. There were two bronze statues in it, which are also a wonderful sight, of Ikaros and Daidalos and of Bellerophon and the horse Pegasos. He also reconstructed the Phakidion and several other buildings in the city, as well as the-aqueduct.

I didn't find an earthquake in Tripoli during this period, except in 450 in Constantinople maybe congruent with the constant earthquakes in Spain (see year 451 and 452)

450, January. Constantinople. Violent shocks. Lycosthenes gives the date 454. (reference #521)

450. 41.04 N, 28.98 E, intensity V. Vicinity of Istanbul. (reference #1071)

450, January. Sea of Marmara, Constantinople (tsunami intensity iii). Many Historians of the time mention an earthquake in Constantinople which occurred in January 450. From their narrations it appears that the shock was not very severe and that no damage of any magnitude was caused. Except Lycosthenes none of the authorities consulted mentions a seismic seawave. Lycosthenes, most probably referring to the earthquake at Constantinople of 447, says that: <<... the earth opened in many chasms, and many cities in Asia were overthrown. The sea abandoned its shores and fire appeared in the sky. The earthquake lasted for six months ...>> (reference #23)

...evidence points strongly to an earthquake on Sunday 26 January. The only year during Theodosius's reign in which the 26 January fell on a Sunday was AD 447, which would indicate that this event was not a later event on 26 January AD 450... (ref #9116)

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/nndc/struts/results?eq_0=9972&t=101650&s=13&d=22,26,13,12&nd=display

459 AD : Doubloon of 447 and maybe 455.

Then, conflagration in Constantinople: primary sources are unclear. Scholars date the event in 464 :

This fire was one of the most devastating of all the disasters which Constantinople experienced in its early centuries. The fire was commemorated annually with a litugy on 1 september.
Wednesday 2 Sept. of indiction 3 according to Chron. Pasch. 595. 2-3, which makes the year 464 (given as 465 by Chron. Pasch. as also in Marcell. com). This combination is more likely to be right than Theophanes' version, even though his indiction and AM data do correspond. The most detailed description of the fire is in Evagr. ii. 13, probably taken from Priscus, via Eustathios of Epiphaneia (though cf. AM 5961). Theod. Lect., however, is cer-tainly Theophanes' source here. The fire, one of the worst to affect Constantinople, burned eight of the city's regions according to Chron. Pasch., although the fire also shows similarities with the one dated by Chron. Pasch. to 469. For a list of ancient references to fires in Constantinople, see A. M. Schneider, BZ 41 (1941), 383-4.

Evagrius :

There were occurrences similar to this,or even more terrible, in Constantinople, the beginning of the evil being in the seaward part ofthe city, which they call Bosporon.
The story is that at the hour for lighting lamps a certain wicked and vengeful demon in the likeness of a woman (or indeed a real woman, a paid worker, stung by a demon ^ forboth versions are current) carried a lamp to the bazaar to buy somepickles, but when the lamp had been put down the woman slipped away.
The ¢re caught hold of some hemp, it sent up a huge £ame and burnt thebuilding quicker than the telling. From there the adjacent buildingswere easily obliterated, with the ¢re engul¢ng not only what was highly in£ammable but even buildings of stone; since it continued until the fourth day and overcame all resistance, all the most central part of the city from the northern to the southern region was consumed, as much as ¢ve stades in length and fourteen stades in breadth.
As a result,nothing in between was left [65] of either public or private buildings, neither columns nor stone arches, but all hardened materials were burnt up as if they had been something highly combustible. In the northern region, where the city’s dockyards are also situated, this misfortune occurred from the so-called Bosporon as far as the ancient temple of
John of Nikiu, op.cit, p109 :
"And after the death of Marcian, Leo the elder became emperor. And in the days of his rule the city of Antioch was polluted owing to the earthquake that befell it. And lightning rained from heaven on Constantinople instead of rain. And it rose high, upon the roofs. And all the people were terrified and offered up prayers and supplications to God; for that lightning had been burning fire; but God out of His love for man had extinguished the fire and made it lightning."

MtS

At the time of Leon, there was in Constantinople the biggest fire ever. The fire was from the sea to the sea. The emperor fled beyond Mar Mâma and stayed there for 6 months …
At that time, Cyzicus was knocked down by an earthquake: it was completely destroyed and many of its inhabitants perished. A large number of towns and villages also fell, however they were not as destroyed as Cyzicus.

Malalas

There occurred in his reign a great. conflagration in Constantinople, such as had never been experienced before. The flames spread from sea to sea, and the emperor Leo, fearing for the palace, left the city and crossed over to St Mamas. He spent six months there on a proce., He built. a harbour there and a colonnade, which he called the New Colonnade, as it is called to the present day.

Theophanes

In this year a great fire occurred in Constantinople on 2 September of the 15 th indiction. It began in the Neorion and spread as far as the church of St Thomas in the district of Amantius. Marcianus, the oikonomos, went up on to the roof-tiles of St Anastasia holding the gospel and preserved that church from harm by his prayers and tears.

Chron Pasch,

"After 30 days, 8 regions of the city were burnt as result of God’s wrath."

Ash: idem, sources are unclear. Scholars think that it was the eruption of Mont Vesuvius in 472.

MtS (a month after the conflagration, so 464)

In Leo's day, for a month after the conflagration, the air was full of particles of ash which covered the ground to the depth of a palm, and especially in Constantinople. The land was terrified, since there was also an earthquake and flames escaped from the ground where it had been torn asunder. Many places were burned down, and the end of the world was anticipated. From the earthquake and the fires, the city of Cyzica disappeared and many cities and villages in Thrace were ruined. Emperor Leo died of an affliction of the bowels. He died after [reigning for] 18 years. During this reign there was never an end to disturbances and destruction in the land and in the Church. All wise folk realized that it was due to the Council of Chalcedon and its unholy profession of faith that the Holy Spirit of God had become angry.

Malalas, idem 464

During his reign there occurred in Constantinople a fall of ash instead of rain, and the ash settled on the tiles to a depth of four fingers. Everyone was terrified and went on processions of prayer saying, "It was fire, but through God's mercy it was quenched and became ash".

There occurred in his reign a great. conflagration in Constantinople, such as had never been experienced before. The flames spread from sea to sea, and the emperor Leo, fearing for the palace, left the city and crossed over to St Mamas. He spent six months there on a proce., He built. a harbour there and a colonnade, which he called the New Colonnade, as it is called to the present day.

Theophanes the Confessor, for the year 473/74

"In this year dust came down from clouds that seemed to be burning, so that everyone thought it was raining fire. . Everybody performed litanies in fear. The dust settled on roofs to the depth of one palm. Everybody said that it was fire and that it was put out and became dust through God's mercy.

Marcellinus for the year 472.

Vesuvius the volcanic mountain of Campania, roared with internal fires as it spat out boiling debris and nocturnal darkness overshadowed the day, and it showered the whole surface of Europe with fine particles of dust. The Byzantines celebrate the memory of this fearful ash on 6 November each year.