Historical Events Database - History

Re: Historical Events Database

seek10 said:
seek10 said:
Eboard10,
you mentioned you are looking at the cassius Dio Books 71-80; I made some entries from Dio Cassius remaining books, though it was not in my initial plan. I have some entries from book 71-80 too, if you want me to enter them, I will enter.
I entered the findings from all Dio cassius books 1-80. I may enter some more as I dig further.

Hi seek10, thanks for bringing that up. I actually put the data entry on hold since I have a few exams coming up in the next couple of weeks which is taking most of my time on top of work. Please do add all your entries to the database, I'll enter or add to yours if I feel there is anything missing later.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

I haven't been doing much data entry lately, but I continue to read and mark texts. I made it through Pseudo-Methodius, I think I already mentioned, and it's a load of superstitious nonsense with nothing of real value there except to see how the truth got twisted.

I got hold of a translation of all the excerpts from Theophilus of Edessa which the translator got from the redactors including Theophanes Confessor, Michael the Syrian, Agapius, etc. It makes an interesting read all stitched together that way. I'll be filling in some gaps from that text. Also, John Lydus. This last is very interesting because he wrote an entire book "On Celestial Signs". I searched the database for "John Lydus" but didn't pull up anything and also searched some of the crucial periods and didn't see him.

Anyway, he begins his book in an interesting way and the following is from the entry I added to event # 903:

John Lydus, a 6th century antiquarian (490 - 570)wrote:

The learned men of the Hebrews divide the teaching about prediction into two parts, into signs and wonders, and they maintain that signs are events which are formed in midair, whereas wonders are events which appear on earth as contrary to nature, such as that which is reported about Moses himself in the so-called Exodus of the Hebrews. {here quotes Exodus from the Septuagint, 3:2, 4:3, 4:6, 4:9,} And not only did these things occur, but besides another more frightful wonder was the conversion of all of the water of Egypt into gore {Ex. 7:20}, also the multitude of frogs {Ex. 8:2-9}, the so-called gnats, the horse-flies, {8:20}which they themselves call dog-flies, the death of cattle, {9:3-6} the sore-producing dust, pustules, and locusts. {9:9} All these events rightly would be called wonders, but signs are events which appear from the upper regions, as that which is recorded in the same scripture: "And the Lord rained hail over all the land of Egypt. It was surely hail and blazing fire in the hail". {9:23-24} And again, "Moses extended his hand to the sky and darkness, gloom, and storm occurred over the whole land of Egypt". {10:22}

Such then is the teaching of the Hebrews about signs, from whom, I believe, also the rest of the nations decided to call these portents celestial signs. For according to the natural philosophers the air, because it is life-producing, is called Zeus so that the sign from the air is a celestial sign, just as the mild and calm condition of the air is called fine weather. The simpler people, therefore, although troubled by the names, must not recoil from learning them, for the Lord says, "I shall give signs in the sky and wonders on the earth below, blood, fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun will be converted into darkness and the moon into blood." {Septuagina, Joel 2:30-31: NT, Acts 2:19-20}

[...], having promised to do this. I also, then, formerly happened to be of the opinion of the many and I used to consider the statements written by the ancients about these things as mere writings, but after experience had demonstrated the truth about them, namely, the appearance of the comet which had occurred lately (it was surely the so-called shape of a horseman) and on account of this appearance the occurrence of the attack by the evil-spirited Persians, which althought it had extended up to the regions of the Orontes, sustained the quickest retreat, so far as possible, for it clearly indicated also our most mighty emperor's victory. Because of these very events and the testimony therefrom I was induced finally to write about such matters, partly thinking that the subject would be commendatory to the remembrance of me and partly believing it preposterous and replete with envy to let so many labors, which had been set down by the ancients for their teachings about these matters, to remain continuously hidden. (John Lydus, On Celestial Signs, (De Ostentis) trans. and ed. by Anastasius C. Bandy, (2013) The edwin Mellen Press, Lewiston-Queenston-Lampeter, pp. 51-53, excerpts)

The thing that strikes me about this text is that the introduction to the topic by John Lydus suggests that something rather dramatic had occurred to change his mind on the subject of celestial signs. The lacuna indicated by the ellipse in brackets may reveal that there was more on this event than has survived in the text. His reference to the star appearing as a "horseman" may relate to it's appearance in the astrological sign, Sagittarius.

Why would he begin with a recitation of the Exodus and then just go on to mention a comet as though seeing a comet was going to change his mind about the relationship between such things and events on the earth???

He dates this to just prior to the attack of the Persians which occurred in 540. Now, let's compare what he wrote above to what Procopius wrote:

"At that time also the comet appeared, at first about as long as a tall man, but later much larger. And the end of it was toward the west and its beginning toward the east, and it followed behind the sun itself. For the sun was in Capricorn and it was in Sagittarius. And some called it "the swordfish" because it was of goodly length and very sharp at the point, and others called it "the bearded star"; it was seen for more than forty days.

Now those who were wise in these matters disagreed utterly with each other, and one announced that one thing, another that another thing was indicated by this star; but I only write what took place and I leave to each one to judge by the outcome as he wishes.

{Here's where it gets weird because he goes on about the Huns, but notice that John Lydus makes NO MENTION of the Huns!!! I'm going to put in bold some words and phrases that could have originally been part of a description of cosmic catastrophe but was later redacted to be an "attack of the Huns". These places could have been those destroyed by a rain of fireballs and some action from the sea as well.}

Straightway a mighty Hunnic army crossing the Danube River fell as a scourge upon all Europe, a thing which had happened many times before, but which had never brought such a multitude of woes nor such dreadful ones to the people of that land. For from the Ionian Gulf these barbarians plundered everything in order as far as the suburbs of Byzantium. And they captured thirty-two fortresses in Illyricum, and they carried by storm the city of Cassandria..., never having fought against walls before. And taking with them the money and leading away one hundred and twenty thousand captives, they all retired homeward without encountering any opposition. In later times too they often came there and brought upon the Romans irreparable calamity. This same people also assailed the wall of the Chersonesus, where they overpowered those who were defending themselves from the wall, and approaching through the surf of the sea, scaled the fortifications on the so-called Black Gulf; thus they got within the long wall, and falling unexpectedly upon the Romans in the Chersonesus they slew many of them and made prisoners of almost all the survivors. Some few of them also crossed the strait between Sestus and Abydus, and after plundering the Asiatic country, they returned again to the Chersonesus, and with the rest of the army and all the booty betook themselves to their homes. In another invasion they plundered Illyricum and Thessaly and attempted to storm the wall at Thermopylae; and since the guards on the walls defended them most valiantly, they sought out the ways around and unexpectedly found the path which leads up the mountain which rises there. In this way they destroyed almost all the Greeks except the Peloponnesians, and then withdrew. {Here the text of Procopius comes back into alignment with John Lydus on the topic of the Persians but coming after that description of the Huns, it simply doesn't make any sense.} And the Persians not long afterwards broke off the treaty and wrought such harm to the Romans of the East as I shall set forth immediately." (History of the Wars II. iii. 57-iv, Loeb, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, London, p. 287)

That bit about finding the back way at Thermopylae has been used in several stories of battles there. It's probably true in one of them, but its a worn out theme. Heck, it was even used in respect of the alleged sack of Rome by the Gauls!
 
Re: Historical Events Database

14 events have been gleaned from Ammianus, so I'll take a final look-through this week and I'll be done with him. There's another project on the table that I'll be focusing on for a while and a life event that's coming up that will take priority. I'll try to come back to do database work after that.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Interesting passage in John Lydus' "On Celestial Signs":

We are eager to speak about both solar and lunar obscurations, for thus the aforesaid (Etruscans referred to in prev. para.) call the defections of the luminaries caused by eclipses, both comets and their difference, both their trailings and dartings, both lightning flashes and thunderbolts, also the other aerial wonders and finally manifestly earthquakes and conflagrations and the presaging therefrom, not so as to recount their natural causes or the speculations about them, for the particulars about these things clearly should be reserved for the philosophers, but to learn perhaps beforehand how it is possible naturally from these celestial signs the occurrence of future events. For it is possible to comprehend from most erudite history that several suns or moons have appeared at the same time, this phenomenon occurring in reality from reflection. Accordingly, the so-called doublings of the disk happens to be seen not above the sun or the moon, but at their side even when they rise or when they set, and this betokens uprisings of powerful kings against one another, as it is possible to comprehend from the attack of Cambyses against the Egyptians and at the time of Nero's death, during which Vespasianus was being elevated to the supreme command of the Romans, as he was tarrying in Iudaea, whereas elsewhere in the West Vitellius, Galba, and Otho were rising up in rivalry. Apuleius, when writing about such matters, says that during the reign of Claudius Caesar also three suns were seen but similarly also that many moons at the time of the consuls Gaius Fannius and Gnaeus Domitus by which fact it was being made quite clear that both Galli and Sauromatae would ravage the empire of the Romans and that the greater part of its army would be destined to be utterly destroyed.

Often also a fiery star resembling the shape of a shield dashes across from the East to the West emitting sparks, presaging an attack by the Parthians. .... pp. 60, 61

What I note is that Lydus was perfectly aware that when "three suns" appeared, it was a "reflection", that is, an optical phenomenon. Also, notice that he distinguishes between lightning and thunderbolts. Notice also that he apparently intends to talk about two kinds of comets... ones with trails and others that "dart" which is an odd way to describe a comet. He also pairs earthquakes with conflagrations which is interesting since that is an issue that Amos Nur argues in "Apocalypse" - something that historians often reject: that fires go together with earthquakes.

He mentions items reported by Apuleius, but those same items are found in Pliny's "Natural History" which is where we have them covered (as well as most of what is in Lydus that is prior to his own time), and I think that, in some cases, I've included Lydus as a witness for Pliny.

The Theophilus of Edessa text is interesting since it has a lot of material from the Persian/Arab side of things, but his starting point was 590 AD and it is thought that he was continuing Menander Protector. However, he covers much of the same period that is covered by Paul the Deacon in Italy, so it will be interesting to compare any parts that might overlap.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

seek10,

You have made entry # 1612 which is the same comet as entry 253.

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! when you make an entry, SORT BY DATE AND MAKE SURE YOU AREN'T DOING A DUPE!

YES, you could/should ADD your entry to the already existing entry - just click "edit" and scroll to the bottom of the text box, make some kind of indication that a new entry is starting (just check what others do to see), and add it in there.

It is NOT going to help us to have false signals!

Also, when using Dio Cassius, it is not necessary to include his name in the title... It's just "Roman History" And put the volume number where the volume numbers belong, not in the title, please.
 
Re: Historical Events Database


Zadig, do you have the publishing information (translator, vol., page, etc) for your entries from Cassiodorus? Can you enter it please?

All of that sort of info will be automatically put into footnotes and bibliography and we need it for every entry.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Seek10, in entry 1764, you have:

8 While he was behaving in this way, evil omens occurred. A comet was seen, and the moon, contrary to precedent, appeared to suffer two eclipses, being obscured on the fourth and on the seventh day. Also people saw two suns at once, one in the west weak and pale, and one in the east brilliant and powerful. 2 On the Capitol many huge footprints were seen, presumably of some spirits that had descended from it. The soldiers who had slept there on the night in question said that the temple of Jupiter had opened of itself with great clangour and that some of the guards had been so terrified that they fainted.

While WHO was behaving? When you utilize a text such as this, cut out of a larger text, please include identifying factors like the name of the individual in question in parentheses. And that name and whatever it is about the behavior, might be better for keywords instead of just repeating "comet" in the keywords when it is already in the event type field.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Zadig, do you have the publishing information (translator, vol., page, etc) for your entries from Cassiodorus?

No, I don't have the publishing information. It comes from Chronicle of the Fall, and there is no reference. Maybe you quote from David Keys.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Laura said:
seek10,

You have made entry # 1612 which is the same comet as entry 253.

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! when you make an entry, SORT BY DATE AND MAKE SURE YOU AREN'T DOING A DUPE!

YES, you could/should ADD your entry to the already existing entry - just click "edit" and scroll to the bottom of the text box, make some kind of indication that a new entry is starting (just check what others do to see), and add it in there.
I am sorry for the Duplicate Laura. I generally check, but it seems to have missed this. I am going to cross check my other entries. Also ambiguous pronouns like 'he'.

Also, when using Dio Cassius, it is not necessary to include his name in the title... It's just "Roman History" And put the volume number where the volume numbers belong, not in the title, please.
Initially I was reading from a website things were categorized as Dio's Book Nbrs [1-80]- one web page per book. I put the Book Nbr in Volume ; Page number blank. Later, I realized the need to find the original books and found the Loeb's original pdf books which grouped 80 books into 9 Volumes [1-9]. TO accommodate volume and book nbr, I put every thing in title. Now all are corrected .

Since I copy pasted it, some times page number paragraph numbers are in the text. I kept it them some thing like markers. If you want me to clean that up, let me know.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Zadig said:
Zadig, do you have the publishing information (translator, vol., page, etc) for your entries from Cassiodorus?

No, I don't have the publishing information. It comes from Chronicle of the Fall, and there is no reference. Maybe you quote from David Keys.

Oh. Then it comes from Cassiodorus and I have the book!
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Thanks seek10. No, you can leave paragraph numbers and such. Sometimes it helps.

We just need to think about it this way: Suppose we just dump the whole database to the printer in chronological order: would a reader who does NOT have a whole lot of historical knowledge be able to read each entry and know what's going on? That's why it is sometimes necessary to put in some background historical info in the notes.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

I'm happy to announce that I finished reading Wars of the Jews a couple of days ago and that I’m planning to start with Antiquities of the Jews shortly. In the meantime I seem to have got stuck upon a few issues about which I really would like some guidance.

My problem is that up until now, I only harvested just a handful of entries for the database from this whole work, mainly because I didn't pay due consideration yet to the event type category of Society with some of its given specifications, like: Massacre, (Slave) Rebellion, Assassination, War, Mass Death, Famine, Sack or Destruction of City, and Mass Migration. Obviously, a work about a war has plenty of those types of events in it, but most of the ones Josephus succeeds in mentioning either seem of minor importance in the grander scheme of things or/and lack the necessary specifics to fill in the data entry forms properly.

The main thing I need to know now is, what level of detail should I be striving for and how many of all these numerous raids, skirmishes, minor battles, fleeting alliances, palace intrigues, outright murders and so on, would really qualify for entrance? The majority of them is strictly related to, and embedded in the narrative about the Jewish rebellion and the military crushing of it, and they have no bearing whatsoever on the main focus of the database as I understand it – but I could be wrong with that assumption.

To give others an inkling on my difficulties, I now submit the very last chapter of the whole work as an illustration of what I mean exactly (Wars of the Jews, Book VII, Chapter XI, §§ 1-5; Loeb 7, 437-455). In all its shortness, it shows all the hallmarks as to why this work of Josephus is so problematical as a historical source:

437 1. And now did the madness of the Sicarii, like a disease, reach as far as the cities of Cyrene; 438 for one Jonathan, a vile person, and by trade a weaver, came thither and prevailed with no small number of the poorer sort to give ear to him; he also led them into the desert, upon promising them that he would show them signs and apparitions. 439 And as for the other Jews of Cyrene, he concealed his knavery from them, and put tricks upon them; but those of the greatest dignity among them informed Catullus, the governor of the Libyan Pentapolis, of his march into the desert, and of the preparations he had made for it. 440 So he sent out after him both horsemen and footmen, and easily overcame them, because they were unarmed men; of these many were slain in the fight, but some were taken alive, and brought to Catullus. 441 As for Jonathan, the head of this plot, he fled away at that time; but upon a great and very diligent search, which was made all the country over for him, he was at last taken. And when he was brought to Catullus, he devised a way whereby he both escaped punishment himself, and afforded an occasion to Catullus of doing much mischief; 442 for he falsely accused the richest men among the Jews, and said that they had put him upon what he did.

443 2. Now Catullus easily admitted of these his calumnies, and aggravated matters greatly, and made tragical exclamations, that he might also be supposed to have had a hand in the finishing of the Jewish war. 444 But what was still harder, he did not only give a too easy belief to his stories, but he taught the Sicarii to accuse men falsely. 445 He bid this Jonathan, therefore, to name one Alexander, a Jew (with whom he had formerly had a quarrel, and openly professed that he hated him); he also got him to name his wife Bernice, as concerned with him. These two Catullus ordered to be slain in the first place; nay, after them he caused all the rich and wealthy Jews to be slain, being no fewer in all than three thousand. 446 This he thought he might do safely, because he confiscated their effects, and added them to Caesar’s revenues.

447 3. Nay, indeed, lest any Jews that lived elsewhere should convict him of his villainy, he extended his false accusations further, and persuaded Jonathan, and certain others that were caught with him, to bring an accusation of attempts for innovation against the Jews that were of the best character both at Alexandria and at Rome. 448 One of these, against whom this treacherous accusation was laid, was Josephus, the writer of these books. 449 However, this plot, thus contrived by Catullus, did not succeed according to his hopes; for though he came himself to Rome, and brought Jonathan and his companions along with him in bonds, and thought he should have had no further inquisition made as to those lies that were forged under his government, or by his means; 450 yet did Vespasian suspect the matter, and made an inquiry how far it was true. And when he understood that the accusation laid against the Jews was an unjust one, he cleared them of the crimes charged upon them, and this on account of Titus’s concern about the matter, and brought a deserved punishment upon Jonathan; for he was first tormented, and then burnt alive.

451 4. But as to Catullus, the emperors were so gentle to him, that he underwent no severe condemnation at this time; yet was it not long before he fell into a complicated and almost incurable distemper, and died miserably. He was not only afflicted in body, but the distemper in his mind was more heavy upon him than the other; 452 for he was terribly disturbed, and continually cried out that he saw the ghosts of those whom he had slain standing before him. Whereupon he was not able to contain himself, but leaped out of his bed, as if both torments and fire were brought to him. 453 This his distemper grew still a great deal worse and worse continually, and his very entrails were so corroded, that they fell out of his body, and in that condition he died. Thus he became as great an instance of Divine Providence as ever was, and demonstrated that God punishes wicked men.

454 5. And here we shall put an end to this our history; wherein we formerly promised to deliver the same with all accuracy, to such as should be desirous of understanding after what manner this war of the Romans with the Jews was managed. 455 Of which history, how good the style is, must be left to the determination of the readers; but as for its agreement with the facts, I shall not scruple to say, and that boldly, that truth hath been what I have alone aimed at through its entire composition.

The first problem that arises here, is about the date of these events which Josephus doesn't give us outright. The placement of this chapter at the very end of his narrative suggests that they happened after the mass suicide in, and the fall of Masada as described in previous chapters of Book VII, which have been dated (by other sources, mind you) in the second half of 73 AD or the first quarter of 74 AD. There's no unanimity among scholars about that date.

However, such a date would be rather problematical for the reason that the governor Catullus mentioned here seems to have been Lucius Valerius Catullus Messallinus. That person is the only one I could find anywhere who roughly answers to this description, and moreover the single source is in French wikipedia (which I can read). According to that wiki entry, this Catullus was consul in Rome during 73 AD together with Vespasian's son Domitian and this list confirms that consulship. The identity of the Catullus mentioned by Josephus as the one who was consul is by no means certain though, because I’ve also found some google results which seem to contest this equation, like for instance in here somewhere. So basically we draw a blank on the dating for the time being.

Jonathan the Weaver appears to have been just one instance of a long list of so-called Messianic Claimants. The Libyan Pentopolis aka Cyrenaica comprises of the eastern part of modern day Libya. After the fall and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (70 AD), some of the surviving rebels were thought to have dispersed as fugitives throughout the surrounding regions and beyond and this Jonathan might have been one of them, although Josephus doesn’t offer any proved details about his religious affiliation nor any specifics about his short lived exploits which may have happened from 71 AD onward, or thereabout. How many persons took part therein and how much of those were killed remains uncertain, whilst not specified.

The main thing relevant for the database would be the ensuing pogrom initiated by governor Catullus among the rich Jews in Cyrene, of whom about 3000 were killed and dispossessed.

Nevertheless, one gets the strong impression that this whole story was compiled only after the facts had happened (Josephus resided in Rome while they came about) and that these wouldn’t have made it into his narrative anyway, were it not for the simple fact that Josephus himself was somehow implicated by this treacherous plotting, pogrom loving and self enriching governor Catullus.

In doing so, he gave Josephus a welcome opportunity to insinuate himself into the ranks of “…the Jews that were of the best character…”, to shine some favorable light upon an apparently careful, suspicious and justice loving Vespasian, and in passing to also mention Titus appreciatively who had no discernible part in any of it.

He then ends this short story with stating that Jonathan got what he deserved from the emperor, but that Catullus succumbed to Divine Providence in a protracted, life consuming and exemplary miserable manner. As such maybe the latter could enter the database under the heading of a human prodigy of sorts. What he doesn’t tell is, that Catullus probably only died somewhere in the nineties AD which is about twenty years later.

Except maybe for some clear cut cases that form the backbone and the main stations of his long winded narrative, all the other events Josephus tells us about in his Wars of the Jews are similarly vague in composition with comparable flaws in their elaboration. It’s a bit of a riddle to me why he seems to have such a high standing as a historian especially in circles of biblical scholars. Anyway, I sincerely doubt whether all these events deserve to be mentioned as separate entries in the database, but that’s precisely what I need guidance on.

Sorry for the length of this post and thanks for reading.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Laura said:
Regarding Huns, Avars, Hungarians, yes, that is a CAN OF WORMS. I tell ya, I'm not even sure I believe in the battle of 451 where Attila was defeated by the Goths and Franks. That just happens to be right around the time that England sorta disappears off the face of the Earth, for all intents and purposes, so I'm thinking that's when some impacts hit in the North and then, around 100 years later, the next biggy wiped out Gaul and Italy, though there was stuff going on for all that time in between. It may also be that it all happened in a rather shorter period of time. Well, maybe once we get things in the database, we'll be able to look at it and figure things out.

Thank you very much for your answer, Laura. I will keep the Huns / Avars in my mind. I put in the keyword "Huns" to all entries mentioning Huns or Avars. Entry 1822 is still without quote - I will include its quote asap. I just wanted to have another instance of this to check something.

It is a little bit early to say but the "Huns/Avars" in our database "act" very strange. They come from the east, then there are some war / destruction for a relatively short time (1 to 3 years) and then they vanish again for about a century. They do this with "quite" similar intervals.... :huh:

When I go to the charts of the database and put in for years 400 to 1000 and search for Huns for one chart and Halley for another I find them astonishingly similar. :/
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Dirgni said:
It is a little bit early to say but the "Huns/Avars" in our database "act" very strange. They come from the east, then there are some war / destruction for a relatively short time (1 to 3 years) and then they vanish again for about a century. They do this with "quite" similar intervals.... :huh:

When I go to the charts of the database and put in for years 400 to 1000 and search for Huns for one chart and Halley for another I find them astonishingly similar. :/

Oh boy! Now that's one thing that the database charts will be useful for. Same thing for Franks and Lombards. "Long-haired Franks/comets" and Long beards and bearded stars anyone?

Methinks the whole "barbarians dunnit" thing was a big snowjob and we JUST might be able to provide some evidence for that.

Palinurus, regarding Josephus, it really sounds like he's a dud. I've got one entry from him that I put in today and it's in 71 AD - Fall of Jerusalem. Open it and read and the related entry that is noted. Notice that Titus refused to take credit for the Fall of Jerusalem. Well, how interesting is that? Maybe he was telling the truth: he didn't do it, the "Wrath of God" did.

Anyway, if there is anything big or important in Josephus, note it, but otherwise, just stick to any environmental mentions.
 
Re: Historical Events Database


It just occurred to me that if these barbarians are invented mostly, somebody may have been having a really good laugh inventing "long haired Franks" and Longobards to take the place of Hairy stars and Bearded stars. I bet they thought they were incredibly clever.
 

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