Historical Events Database - History

[Dirgni]

Re: Historical Events Database

Did some of you also read that the name Huns / Avars / Hungarians (/ Goths) are somewhat used as synonyms for tribes living in Pannonia or approaching from Pannonia to Middle/Western Europe?

There seem to be a certain tendency of the some authors during the 8th to 10th centuries to use Avars and Huns etc as synonyms. Nowadays those two tribes are distinguished but then not always.
Other tribes do only have one name, Franks are Franks, Saxons are Saxons, Saracens are Saracens, Greek are Greek, Northmen are Northmen etc. The name is always used consistently. But with Huns, Avars (and sometimes Hungarians) there seem to be more than one name kind of used interchangeably. Maybe these tribes are coming and going and the same tribe name from the former visit is used for the latest tribe, too. Or there is some very different reason for this (maybe these tribes are "not tribes" or they are "tribes bringing disaster with them"). And there are strange little stories in which they are connected with rings - ring hedges or a ring wall. This is weird.
Huns ~ Avars ~ Hungarians ~ Goths

I found 4 sources so far.

Einhard: The Life of Charlemagne (He uses Huns instead of Avars.):
"11. Tassilo and the Bavarian Campaign
At this time, on a sudden, the Bavarian war broke out, but came to a speedy end. It was due to the arrogance and folly of Duke Tassilo. His wife [Liutberga], a daughter of King Desiderius, was desirous of avenging her father's banishment through the agency of her husband, and accordingly induced him to make a treaty with the Huns, the neighbors of the Bavarians on the east, and not only to leave the King's commands unfulfilled, but to challenge him to war."
"13. War with the Huns
The war against the Avars, or Huns, followed [791], and, except the Saxon war, was the greatest that he waged; he took it up with more spirit than any of his other wars, and made far greater preparations for it. He conducted one campaign in person in Pannonia, of which the Huns then had possession. "
"20. Conspiracies Against Charlemagne
By one of his concubines he had a son, handsome in face, but hunchbacked, named Pepin, whom I omitted to mention in the list of his children. When Charles was at war with the Huns, and was wintering in Bavaria [792], this Pepin shammed sickness, and plotted against his father in company with some of the leading Franks, who seduced him with vain promises of the royal authority."

The Annals of Fulda (Avars not mentioned before 890):
"894
The Avars, who are called Hungarians, penetrated across the Danube at this time, and did many terrible things. They killed men and old women outright, and carried off the young women alone with them like cattle to satisfy their lusts, and reduced the whole of Pannonia to a desert."
"895
The Avars [Hungarians] invaded the lands of the Bulgars and were driven off by them, and a great part of their army was killed."

Widukind of Corvey: Res gestae Saxonicae /Die Sachsengeschichte/The Deeds of the Saxons:
"Book I (18) As some believe Avars were the remnants of the Huns. The Huns are from the Goths, the Goths however are from the island Sulza, as Jordanes says. After her own duke named Gotha they have been called the Goths."
"Book I (38) The king now had an army ready for a battle on horseback, and so he dared to begin a campaign against his old enemies, the Hungarians. ... [Now] we face a further challenge – we must rise up together against our common enemy, the Avars."

The Monk of Saint Gall: The Life of Charlemagne, 883/4 (He uses Huns instead of Avars.):
"17. This same bishop was left to take care of Hildigard, when the most warlike Charles was engaged in campaigns against the Huns."
"Whereupon the race of the Huns, (21) who had already often ravaged Francia [106] and Aquitania (that is to say the Gauls and the Spains), now poured out with all their forces, devastated the whole land like a wide-sweeping conflagration, and then carried off all their spoils to a very safe hiding-place.

(21) It is unnecessary to disentangle the Monk's strange perversion of history; but it may be noted that he identifies the Avars, whom Charlemagne subdued, with the Huns who followed Attila. But the Huns and the Avars, though allied in race, where two quite distinct nationalities."

"27. The foolish may accuse me of folly because just now I made Charles say that the sea, which that mighty emperor called playfully a little pool, lay between us and the Greeks; but I must tell my critics that at that date the Bulgarians and the Huns and many other powerful races barred the way to Greece with forces yet unattacked and unbroken."

These are stories about Huns/Avar connected with "rings":

Widukind of Corvey: Res gestae Saxonicae /Die Sachsengeschichte/The Deeds of the Saxons (my translation :/):
(18) As some believe Avars were the remnants of the Huns. The Huns are from the Goths, the Goths however are from the island Sulza, as Jordanes says. After her own duke named Gotha they have been called the Goths. When some women in his army were accused as poisoner before him, he interrogated them and found them guilty. Since there were many, he refrained from the deserved punishment, but banned all from the army. But the outcasts went into the nearby forest. As this was surrounded by the sea and the maeotic marshes, there was no possibility to escape. But some of them were already pregnant and gave birth here. As their descendants offspring was born, a powerful tribe emerged. As they lived like wild animals, uneducated and undisciplined, they became very eager hunters. They lived there many centuries and knew no other part of the world. Then it happened that they pursued a doe on the hunt, and when following her they found the way and crossed through through the maeotic swamps, which was impassable for all earlier people. There they saw castles and towns, and a previously unknown people. They returned on the same path and reported this to their companions. A lot of them departed out of curiosity to check what they heared. The inhabitants saw the unknown crowd and their statures, terrible in clothes and movement; they thought they were evil spirits, and fled. But those were amazed and astounded due to the novel appearance of things and initially abstained of murder and robbery. But when no one offered resistance, they were packed by human greed and murdered the inhabitants and spared no one any more. And they returned to their homes with great booty. Because they saw that they had success they came back with their wives and children and the farm equipment, looted all-around the neighboring tribes, and finally began to settle in Pannonia.

(19) Defeated by Charlemagne, driven across the Danube and enclosed within a large ring wall, they had to discontinuee their usual raids of other tribes. But the wall was destroyed under the reign of Arnulf and their way was cleared to do damage. This was because the the Emperor was angry with Moravian king Svatopluk. Which destruction and disaster they thereupon brought to the Frankish Empire is testifyed today by the ruined castles and landscapes. ...

The Monk of Saint Gall: The Life of Charlemagne, 883/4:
Book II
Concerning the Wars and Military Exploits of Charles
As I am going to found this narrative on the story told by a man of the world, who had little skill in letters, I think it will be well that I should first recount something of earlier history on the credit of written books. When Julian (20), whom God hated, was slain in the Persian war by a blow from heaven, not only did the transmarine provinces fall away from the Roman Empire, but also the neighbouring provinces of Pannonia, Noricum, Rhætia, or in other words the Germans and the Franks or Gauls. Then too the kings of the Franks (or Gauls) began to decay in power because they had slain Saint Didier, Bishop of Vienna, and had expelled those most holy visitors, Columban and Gall. Whereupon the race of the Huns (21), who had already often ravaged Francia [106] and Aquitania (that is to say the Gauls and the Spains), now poured out with all their forces, devastated the whole land like a wide-sweeping conflagration, and then carried off all their spoils to a very safe hiding-place. Now Adalbert, whom I have already mentioned, used to explain the nature of this hiding-place as follows: -- "The land of the Huns," he would say, "was surrounded by nine rings." I could not think of any rings except our ordinary wicker rings for sheepfolds; and so I asked: "What, in the name of wonder, do you mean, sire?" "Well," he said, "it was fortified by nine hedges." I could not think of any hedges except those that protect our cornfields, so again I asked and he answered: "One ring was as wide, that is, it contained as much within it, as all the country between Tours and Constance. It was fashioned with logs of oak and ash and yew and was twenty feet wide and the same in height. All the space within was filled with hard stones and binding clay; and the surface of these great ramparts was covered with sods and grass. Within the limits of the ring shrubs were planted of such a kind that, when lopped and bent down, they still threw out twigs and leaves. Then between these ramparts hamlets and houses were so arranged that a man's [107] voice could be made to reach from one to the other. And opposite to the houses, at intervals in those unconquerable walls, were constructed doors of no great size; and through these doors the inhabitants from far and near would pour out on marauding expeditions. The second ring was like the first and was distant twenty Teutonic miles (or forty Italian) from the third ring; and so on to the ninth: though of course the successive rings were each much narrower than the preceding one. But in all the circles the estates and houses were everywhere so arranged that the peal of the trumpet would carry the news of any event from one to the other."
For two hundred years and more the Huns had swept the wealth of the western states within these fortifications, and as the Goths and Vandals were disturbing the repose of the world at the same time the western world was almost turned into a desert. But the most unconquerable Charles so subdued them in eight years that he allowed scarcely any traces of them to remain. He withdrew his hand from the Bulgarians, because after the destruction of the Huns they did not seem likely to do any harm to the kingdom of the Franks. All the booty of the Huns, which he found in Pannonia, [108] he divided most liberally among the bishoprics and the monasteries.

(20) Julian's death took place in 367. It need scarcely be pointed out that the Monks' historical narrative is here of the very wildest description.
(21) It is unnecessary to disentangle the Monk's strange perversion of history; but it may be noted that he identifies the Avars, whom Charlemagne subdued, with the Huns who followed Attila. But the Huns and the Avars, though allied in race, where two quite distinct nationalities.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

I still can't get access to the database website as I'm confronted with the same message over and over. Have tried more than a dozen times over two days to no avail.

The only explanation I could think of overnight would be, that somehow my logging out on Sunday evening didn't get processed properly. That way I would still be registered as logged in and could therefore not be allowed back in again on the same login data -- although I'm not really logged in at the moment.

Data, would you please look into this and possibly try to fix it? If necessary, provide me with a brand new password?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Regarding Huns, Avars, Hungarians, yes, that is a CAN OF WORMS. I tell ya, I'm not even sure I believe in the battle of 451 where Attila was defeated by the Goths and Franks. That just happens to be right around the time that England sorta disappears off the face of the Earth, for all intents and purposes, so I'm thinking that's when some impacts hit in the North and then, around 100 years later, the next biggy wiped out Gaul and Italy, though there was stuff going on for all that time in between. It may also be that it all happened in a rather shorter period of time. Well, maybe once we get things in the database, we'll be able to look at it and figure things out.

 

[Mikey]

Re: Historical Events Database

I still can't get access to the database website as I'm confronted with the same message over and over. Have tried more than a dozen times over two days to no avail.

The only explanation I could think of overnight would be, that somehow my logging out on Sunday evening didn't get processed properly. That way I would still be registered as logged in and could therefore not be allowed back in again on the same login data -- although I'm not really logged in at the moment.

Data, would you please look into this and possibly try to fix it? If necessary, provide me with a brand new password?

Thanks in advance.

There was a bug (introduced by my recent upgrade), preventing anybody to view the listings page. It's been fixed - thanks for reporting! You now should be able to log in as before.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Indeed, I am. Thanks Data.

 

[Mal7]

Re: Historical Events Database

I've just been reading a recently published book that collects a number of Mary Beard's book reviews of titles on the Classics. The book reviews were originally written for the Times Literary Supplement, the London Review of Books, and the New York Review of Books.

I thought this passage about Livy might be of interest:

Add to this the fact that, on the orthodox view, Livy was a very poor historian indeed, whether by ancient or modern standards. He did no primary research, but relied exclusively on earlier histories. That was not necessarily unusual in antiquity, but Livy was worse than most: he often did not fully understand his sources or manage to reconcile them into a single coherent narrative. There are notorious occasions where he relates the same event twice, presumably because he found the same story told slightly differently in two different sources and did not spot that they were describing the same thing (so, as Levene notes, the cities of Croton and Locri are reported as falling to the Carthaginians twice, in two different years). And there are clear signs that his Greek was not good enough to understand properly one of his major sources, the Greek historian Polybius, who also covered the war in his account of Rome's rise to power in the Mediterranean. Enough of Polybius survives for us sometimes to be able to compare Livy's version with the text on which he depended. It can be a nasty surprise.

One notable Livian howler comes from his account of the Roman siege of Ambracia in Greece in 189 BC, after the end of the war. A complicated struggle is going on, within a series of underground tunnels, dug both by the Romans and the Ambracians. At one point, Livy refers to the fight going on 'with doors put in the way' (foribus positis). Where were the doors from? And what are they doing in the tunnels? If we go back to Polybius' text we find a significantly different story. He has 'shields' put in the way. The most plausible explanation is that Livy has mistaken the standard word for 'Roman shields' (scuta in Latin), which is in the original Greek (thureous) for a similar word (thuras) meaning 'doors'. To be fair to Livy, the words are etymologically related: the Roman shield was 'door shaped' [. . .]"

- from Confronting the Classics: Traditions, Adventures and Innovations, by Mary Beard. London: Profile Books, 2013. page 76.

 

[Alana]

Re: Historical Events Database

Alana, you did your first entry fine. You should include your other entries IMHO.

Here is my feedback (and I am still a beginner with this, too :/):

If Leo provided a year I would mention it in the quote box. I would also include Leos year in the occurrence year box with appropriate uncertainty - 2 years. But you could also choose the authors year and mark uncertainty. Then you put in a remark in other notes box to explain this - you already did this extensively.

Thank you Dirgni, I did what you said above regarding the date. I put the date Leo gave, then 2 years uncertainty, and then corrected date.

I am still struggling with keywords myself. For keywords I sometimes search for entries with the same event type and check the keywords especially at Laura's entries. My choice for your entry would be maybe: "city/towns destroyed, people killed and buried under ruins, God's wrath". Keywords are for searching so they should be general. And they could be used to find potential doubles. Therefore they have to be general, short but descriptive.

You could also read this thread to check Laura's comments how to include entries in the database. And I think that at least I will sometimes go over my own entries to check if I could improve them in keywords, etc... :)

I see that Laura changed my keywords already. I'll check through previous entries to get the idea.

When you have got a question about database entries you could include your quote and other information in this thread. This makes it easier to answer it...

Entry 1404
Occurrence Year: 967

Quote:
During the same year, when summer was just turning to autumn, God shook the earth greatly, so that buildings and towns were destroyed. It happened then that Klaudioupolis, the most prosperous town of the Galatians, was demolished by the irresistible quaking and trembling,and became a sudden grave for its inhabitants, and many visitors who happened to be there were also killed instantly.

[...]

In any case, all Klaudioupolis was at that time destroyed from its foundations by the force of the earthquake, and obliterated, draining the cup of God's untempered wrath.

Keywords:
city demolished,people buried under ruins,inhabitants and visitors killed instantly,

Just my 2 cents

You are right, I am sorry. I will do it from now on. Your 2 cents were good advice :)

Yes it’s good. But can you put the name of the author, not the name of the translator?

I put Leo's name in the box of the ancient writer. But do you think it's best I put it in the Author field on top? You might be right, because it is still Leo's work, even if translated by somebody else. I will do it. Thank you!

 

[Alana]

Re: Historical Events Database

I wonder if my next entry should be two instead of one. The quote:

Also during this year, around the middle of summer, just as the sun was entering the sign of Cancer, a storm burst forth in Byzantium and its environs, such as had never occurred before; for the disaster began as the day was drawing to a close (it was Friday), and ended at the ninth hour. The rain poured down so violently that one could not see drops of rain as usual, but it was like streams overflowing with water. There was no church or renowned building that was not filled with water from above, through the roof, although the inhabitants laboriously drained it off into the streets; but as much as they poured out, poured in, and the flood was unconquerable. For three hours the rain poured down continually, and one could see overflowing rivers in the narrow streets of the city, destroying whatever living thing they carried along with them. The people wailed and lamented piteously, fearing that a flood like that fabled one of old was again befalling them. But compassionate Providence, which loves mankind, thrust a rainbow through the clouds, and with its rays dispersed the gloomy rain, and the structure of nature returned again to its previous condition. It so happened that there was a later downpour, which was turbid and mixed with ashes, as in the soot from a furnace, and it seemed lukewarm to those who touched it.

The bolded part is about a second incident, although we don't know when but can suspect that it was probably the same year, and at Byzantium. The translator makes a note that Loretto (Nikeforos Phokas, 173 n.70.1) tentatively suggests that this might have been the result of a volcanic eruption of Bithynian Olympos or Mt Argaios near Caesarea, but it's hard to verify. It could be something to do with celestial activity.

Downpour mixed with ashes. Would that be under unusual weather if it get's its own entry?

Also, for the non-bolded part above for keywords I used:

Flood,storm,streams overflowing with water, rivers in the streets,

For the bolded: downpour mixed with ashes.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I put Leo's name in the box of the ancient writer. But do you think it's best I put it in the Author field on top? You might be right, because it is still Leo's work, even if translated by somebody else. I will do it. Thank you!

Yes. If you will notice, all the ancient texts I work from have the ancient author listed AS THE AUTHOR. It is not always necessary to put the translator for such things though I did on one or two where the translation was exceptional and not in every case.

Just remember: a translation is still a book BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR.

Would you list any of my books that have been translated as being by the translator? No.

Just poke around a bit and look at how I've done certain entries to get ideas. Mine aren't perfect since I'm figuring things out as I go along and as I work with the material, some things emerge as important, and others recede and need to be adjusted.

 

[Alana]

Re: Historical Events Database

I put Leo's name in the box of the ancient writer. But do you think it's best I put it in the Author field on top? You might be right, because it is still Leo's work, even if translated by somebody else. I will do it. Thank you!

Yes. If you will notice, all the ancient texts I work from have the ancient author listed AS THE AUTHOR. It is not always necessary to put the translator for such things though I did on one or two where the translation was exceptional and not in every case.

Just remember: a translation is still a book BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR.

Would you list any of my books that have been translated as being by the translator? No.

Just poke around a bit and look at how I've done certain entries to get ideas. Mine aren't perfect since I'm figuring things out as I go along and as I work with the material, some things emerge as important, and others recede and need to be adjusted.

Good points. I am now going through the database and checking the previous entries.

 

[Muxel]

Re: Historical Events Database

I can do Tacitus's Annals and Histories. The older translations by Church & Brodribb are available online, but I have Wellesley's translation of Histories and Grant's translation of Annals in print. Can I go with any one of them?

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I can do Tacitus's Annals and Histories. The older translations by Church & Brodribb are available online, but I have Wellesley's translation of Histories and Grant's translation of Annals in print. Can I go with any one of them?

Newer translations are usually better. I've got Loeb's Moore and Jackson so after you get a few entries in, I can compare them. You'll want to read through carefully and sometimes may have to do research to get dates and stuff. Also, put in any interesting data about characters or some events in the notes section.

What I usually do is to just read the entire text first. As I read, when I find something interesting, I put a little sticky tab marker on the page so as to find it easily. Then, once I have a whole "feeling" for everything, I start back through pulling out the noted excerpts. The reason for this is that sometimes, there are items in the text that relate to each other, or the historian refers back to something written previously with another detail. If there has been redaction, this will often show up in this way - contradictions, references to something previous that somehow has "disappeared" etc.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Shijing, I noticed that your entry 899 duplicates zadig's entry 197. If you had been checking by date before making entries, you would have caught it and could then have added data to the same entry.

And example. Today I'm going through John Lydus but am finding that most of what he has - at least in the early part of his work - is derived from Pliny the Elder. Since those things are already entered, then I only add from Lydus the reference and possibly, any additional info he may include. But I sort by date first to make sure that the event isn't already covered.

 

[shijing]

Re: Historical Events Database

Shijing, I noticed that your entry 899 duplicates zadig's entry 197. If you had been checking by date before making entries, you would have caught it and could then have added data to the same entry.

OK, sorry about that Laura -- I'll be merging the entries when I have a chance.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

I think I need some help sorting out some issues with Flavius Josephus' Wars of the Jews notably Book VI, Ch.5 § 3-4 (Loeb 6, 288-315).

At the pinnacle of his narrative when the Temple in Jerusalem is set on fire, he takes a time out as it were to relate to his readers the portents, prodigies and prophecies which would have allowed the Jews to know beforehand that their city was in great danger and might as well perish completely -- if they only would have taken due note of them.

This is a rare occasion as Josephus almost never gave any remarks of this kind in his narrative so far.

According to this table the date of the start of the Temple fire was August 10, 70 AD.

The following is what Josephus has written without giving any clues as to when these events took place (I numbered them into separate lines with my remarks in blue):

288 3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.

<1>
289 Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.

I checked the wiki page about Halley's comet and the HED list (Chronology of the Fall) to find that "the comet that continued a whole year" might have been Halley in 66 AD but for the other one (if a separate event) I have no clue yet.

<2>
290 Thus also before the Jews’ rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which light lasted for half an hour. 291 This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.

It seems impossible to date this conclusively because the commotions started with the census of Quirinius (6 AD) and have been simmering ever since until the real revolt broke out into an all out war (66 AD).

<3>
292 At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

Idem

<4>
293 Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. 294 Now, those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. 295 This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. 296 So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

Same

<5>
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar], 297 a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, 298 and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen 299 running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

Don't have a clue as to what to make of this phenomenon.

<6>
Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, 300 and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.”

Again impossible to date, I think.

<7>
But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for everyone to make tabernacles to God in the temple, 301 began on a sudden to cry aloud, “A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!” This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. 302 However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say anything for himself, or anything peculiar to those that chastised him, but still he went on with the same words which he cried before. 303 Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, 304 where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!” 305 And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. 306 Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!” 307 Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. 308 This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; 309 for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, “Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!” And just as he added at the last, “Woe, woe to myself also!” there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

Albinus was procurator from 62-64 AD, so adding "seven years and five months" brings us right into the heart of the War period. The War started in 66 AD and "four years before the war began" would give 62 AD also.

IMO, this Jesus story bears all the hallmarks of a nucleus for the propaganda version about Christ which are contained in the Gospels. I will copy/paste this section into the Caesar thread shortly for wider discussion over there.

310 4. Now, if anyone consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves;

<8>
311 for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple foursquare, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, “That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become foursquare.”

I'm not familiar with this quote so I guess it's not from the Bible but from some other Jewish source, but I don't have a clue which one.

<9>
312 But now, what did most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, “about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth.” 313 The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now, this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. 314 However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. 315 But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.

Josephus is the original author of this interpretation as far as I can tell. He already has used it once before in his narrative when he got captured after the siege of Jotapata (Yodfat) in 67 AD and foretold Vespasian that he would become emperor according to this oracle -- which indeed happened two years later.

My overall question would now be: what can be used from this list and in what form should it be entered into the database?