Historical Events Database - History

[Voyageur]

Re: Historical Events Database

Forgot to mention that I bought the new QFG translation of Carl Zohren's Valerius Antias and Caesar book on amazon Kindle version today. Is this one of the texts that can we can use to enter data from too?

Me too, however, I ordered the paperback as the Kindle version did not come up here.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I think the data entry form is going to be really great to start the process of gathering everything together. Then, there will be many useful, informative ways to generate different uses, as mentioned. Exciting! How and when are the texts going to be chosen/listed for people to pick for reading and data entry - is it decided yet?

I'll create a list of the texts and I'll take Livy since I've already gone through a pile of that. I'll also do the Latin Fragments since I have the text. I'm trying to negotiate with Brill for access to their online English translation of the Greek Fragments, but maybe Shijing could do that one instead since his institution probably has access.

We have Michael the Syrian in French, so Pierre can do that one, translating as he goes (it's not in English).

Anyway, I'll make the list and ya'll can pick your text other than the above. Some of them are richer in material than others, and some have the material disguised. So if there is a questionable passage, we can consult here about it. I suppose that we ought to split off this line of discussion into it's own thread so maybe one of the mods can do that.

Forgot to mention that I bought the new QFG translation of Carl Zohren's Valerius Antias and Caesar book on amazon Kindle version today. Is this one of the texts that can we can use to enter data from too?

No. As you will see, the book about Antias is ABOUT Antias, not necessarily about history except that Antias was a historian. It is mainly about the date of writing, and what he did in his project of re-writing history, how he introduced certain corruptions that were then followed by many historians after him.

 

[Mikey]

Re: Historical Events Database

I suppose that we ought to split off this line of discussion into it's own thread so maybe one of the mods can do that.

We are now in a new thread.

I'll start working on the database.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Re: Historical Events Database

This is exciting! :D

Maybe I missed it, but is there a certain time period that we should focus on or we'll go with whatever source we have from start to end?

I'm familiar with English chronicles and Calendar of the Fine Rolls when I was doing a research paper on the impact of the Black Death on the Benedictine Houses in Kent County, England and tracked the number of deaths by the plague (I still have the paper). I work at an university to which I can research the chronicles at the library (especially those marked as rare and library-use only) if not available online.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'm with Petrarch's translation, which is supposedly from more sources than Suetonius alone. So I'll probably can't contribute with the bigger time line, though would be cross checking with several texts for proofreading and learning purposes. Maybe I might stumble with something.

Right from the start, Petrarch mentions that Cesar's father was called Lucius Julius Caesar and that he makes it known for those who didn't knew. I don't know if we want stuff like that in the timeline for "genealogical" purposes or to see if the story holds up.

It is also mentioned that Caesar had the "quartan fever" in his youth and he suffered much for it.

Perhaps as the database gets expanded with information, we will begin to see a pattern in diseases and cosmic events which are given importance and details such as the above could make more sense. Right now, as I understand it, it could have been any "normal" infectious disease.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Historical Events Database

I think the data entry form is going to be really great to start the process of gathering everything together. Then, there will be many useful, informative ways to generate different uses, as mentioned. Exciting! How and when are the texts going to be chosen/listed for people to pick for reading and data entry - is it decided yet?

I'll create a list of the texts and I'll take Livy since I've already gone through a pile of that. I'll also do the Latin Fragments since I have the text. I'm trying to negotiate with Brill for access to their online English translation of the Greek Fragments, but maybe Shijing could do that one instead since his institution probably has access.

We have Michael the Syrian in French, so Pierre can do that one, translating as he goes (it's not in English).

Anyway, I'll make the list and ya'll can pick your text other than the above. Some of them are richer in material than others, and some have the material disguised. So if there is a questionable passage, we can consult here about it. I suppose that we ought to split off this line of discussion into it's own thread so maybe one of the mods can do that.

Forgot to mention that I bought the new QFG translation of Carl Zohren's Valerius Antias and Caesar book on amazon Kindle version today. Is this one of the texts that can we can use to enter data from too?

No. As you will see, the book about Antias is ABOUT Antias, not necessarily about history except that Antias was a historian. It is mainly about the date of writing, and what he did in his project of re-writing history, how he introduced certain corruptions that were then followed by many historians after him.

OK, thanks, Laura. I'm going to start reading the Antias book shortly. I'll wait for the list of texts later to see what to choose. But, it would also probably be best to start reading those when the database form is ready, so we can all just start entering data as we're reading, right?

 

[Andromeda]

Re: Historical Events Database

As many properties as possible can be entered. If a property is not known, it can be left empty or zero. I've added to the mockup as many characteristic properties that I could think of. Which properties to be used to present the data, and how the actual presentation of the data will be (maps, graphs, lists, filtered lists, etc.) we can decide later, after the data has been entered.

Would it be helpful to add a field to track the scale of the event? Such as 80% crop failure or 1 in 10 mortality, in case there is no specific count? Maybe something for the size of area affected too, where all of Europe would get a higher number than a smaller region?

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

As we embark on this project, it might be useful to keep in mind the following post by Data in another thread:

I came across an interesting passage in Gurdjieff's book Meetings with Remarkable Men. It is a fascinating book and would encourage everyone to get a copy and read it.

Gurdjieff excerted tremendous efforts, often under great danger and with great cunning, to visit places in eastern countries where no European could go, in the search for secrets that could not have been learned otherwise. This book is a chronicle of his adventures, with direct quotes of several remarkable men that he and his fellows met during the journeys.

The following excerpt is about Father Giovanni, a former Christian priest who entered the 'World Brotherhood' (in Kafiristan), which was a fellowship unifying a number of adepts coming from various religious origins (Christians, Jews, Mohammedans, Buddhists, Lamaists, Shamanists).


The interesting part is about "studying events of the past" as a prerequisite to grow a soul. This is interesting in respect to the work we do on this forum, of which a large part is studying history.

Many extraordinary questions which never enter the heads of contemporary people were then aroused in us and elucidated by this rare man, Father Giovanni, the like of whom is scarcely ever met with in contemporary life. One of his explanations, which followed a question put to him by Professor Skridlov two days before we left the monastery, is of enormous interest for everyone, owing to the depth of the thoughts it contained and its possible significance for contemporary people who have already reached responsible age.

This question of Professor Skridlov was torn from him as from the depths of his being, when Father Giovanni had said that, before counting on really coming under the effects and influences of the higher forces, it was absolutely necessary to have a soul, which it was possible to acquire only through voluntary and involuntary experiencings and information intentionally learned about real events which had taken place in the past. He convincingly added that this in its turn was possible almost exclusively in youth, when the definite data received from Great Nature are not yet spent on unnecessary, fantastic aims, which appear to be good owing only to the abnormally established conditions of the life of people.

At these words Professor Skridlov sighed deeply and exclaimed in despair: 'What, then, can we do; how can we live on?'

In answer to this exclamation of Skridlov, Father Giovanni, having remained silent for a moment, expressed those remarkable thoughts which I consider it necessary to reproduce, in so far as possible, word for word. I shall place them, as relating to the question of the soul, that is, the third independently formed part of the common presence of a man, in the chapter entitled 'The divine body of man, and its needs and possible manifestations according to law', but only in the third series of my writings. [Note: This is Life is only real when I Am] [...]

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'm with Petrarch's translation, which is supposedly from more sources than Suetonius alone. So I'll probably can't contribute with the bigger time line, though would be cross checking with several texts for proofreading and learning purposes. Maybe I might stumble with something.

Right from the start, Petrarch mentions that Cesar's father was called Lucius Julius Caesar and that he makes it known for those who didn't knew. I don't know if we want stuff like that in the timeline for "genealogical" purposes or to see if the story holds up.

No, we are searching for large scale events that might show up in ice cores.

It is also mentioned that Caesar had the "quartan fever" in his youth and he suffered much for it.

Perhaps as the database gets expanded with information, we will begin to see a pattern in diseases and cosmic events which are given importance and details such as the above could make more sense. Right now, as I understand it, it could have been any "normal" infectious disease.

I think that "quartan fever" is a form of malaria and thus would not be something we are particularly concerned with.

 

[Scottie]

Re: Historical Events Database

This is nifty!

I was talking with Data about this data (project), and we were lamenting the fact that there is no "Google Maps for Ancient Rome" where you could enter an ancient location name and it would return a latitude/longitude (a bit off-topic, but you never know when the extra data could come in handy).

Well, there sort of is:

_http://orbis.stanford.edu

It appears to be more for calculating travel routes and stuff, and not for getting lat/lang for a particular location... but it's still pretty wild!

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Hmm... putting lat and long data in when it is available or can be found might be useful. Could we have a thing with a drop down menu that we could add to as we go? Or would that be too difficult? Part of the problem is that some cities/locations changed names depending on period or chronicler so we may need some location names that are like "name/name/name".

 

[mcb]

Re: Historical Events Database

This idea is not entirely unlike a genealogical database idea that I have begun to develop that would facilitate "fuzzy" querying of historical data (in my case, personal genealogical events).

While there are many genealogy database applications already available, none of them that I have reviewed so far does an adequate job in either of these areas:

• Connecting events by approximate location and date, when other information is not available
• Considering "multiple versions of the truth" in parallel, since conflicting accounts seem to be the norm rather than the exception

All my current software seems to want me to merge the conflicting accounts into a "consistent" story -- a fool's errand in my opinion. On top of that, while they do have geospatial (location) features, they seem to want me to invest large amounts of time in cannonicalizing the location data before they will tell me anything useful, and they aren't specifically geared toward finding historical "touch points," which is what I am looking for.

If any of this is relevant to your project, I might be able to contribute something at some point. Right now, think about what you want out of the database, establish the high-level, logical entities and relationships according to your needs (i.e. construct your "business data model"), and don't be sidetracked by implementation details.

 

[Muxel]

Re: Historical Events Database

BTW I've been meaning to post this:

As we noted, depopulation of the Frisian salt-marshes is said to have occurred between 250 and 400 AD due to the rising sea levels and flooding. Later, undoubtedly, the cometary destruction of Europe led to tribes long settled going on the march. Most probably, this is the ultimate reason for the almost total depopulation of the Frisians in North Holland.

As the experts note (though they can't come up with a real reason for it unless they look at the ideas of cometary destruction), this depopulation did not just affect Frisian areas. In the Baltic and northern European coastal regions, the population retreated to the higher areas inland during the second century AD, and certainly were on the move when the comets came. So, either there were two periods of depopulation, or only one and the dating is incorrect.

Antonine Plague (a.k.a. Plague of Galen) : 165–180 AD
Plague of Cyprian : 250–? AD

 

[shijing]

Re: Historical Events Database

I'll create a list of the texts and I'll take Livy since I've already gone through a pile of that. I'll also do the Latin Fragments since I have the text. I'm trying to negotiate with Brill for access to their online English translation of the Greek Fragments, but maybe Shijing could do that one instead since his institution probably has access.

Sure -- is this the one you have in mind?:

http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/browse/brill-s-new-jacoby

Just give me whatever additional details I may need to know, and I'll see what I can do about getting access. The copy of Abbots of Wearmouth and Jarrow also came yesterday -- it's only a little over 200 pages long.

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Sure -- is this the one you have in mind?:

http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/browse/brill-s-new-jacoby

That's it.

Just give me whatever additional details I may need to know, and I'll see what I can do about getting access. The copy of Abbots of Wearmouth and Jarrow also came yesterday -- it's only a little over 200 pages long.

Abbots of Wearmouth and Jarrow MIGHT have something interesting since the description is:

Offers a new edition, translation, and commentary of the major texts on the monasteries of Wearmouth and Jarrow: works that are vital for our understanding both of the context in which Bede was writing and also of the nature of monasticism in Northumbria in the pre-Viking period

This volume contains Latin texts, facing translations, and full commentary on four texts which are key to an understanding of the development of monasticism in early medieval Northumbria: Bede's History of the Abbots of Wearmouth and Jarrow, his Homily on Benedict Biscop, and his Letter to Ecgbert, Archbishop of York, together with the anonymous Life of Ceolfrith. The texts are based on a fresh collation of all available manuscripts, and a complete apparatus criticus is included. The translation is as close to the original as possible while communicating its sense clearly. A series of essays in the introduction examines the importance of the texts, the picture they paint both of Bede and his monastic milieu, and the Latinity of the texts included in the volume.

As the major texts on the monasteries of Wearmouth and Jarrow, these works are vital for our understanding both of the context in which Bede was writing and also of the nature of monasticism in Northumbria in the pre-Viking period.

Look particularly for any clues about relations with the Franks, Frankish people, environmental things (I doubt there will be much), etc. With an idea of what the situation was as I've outlined it, you should be able to catch it if something stands out as odd.

Also, if it's possible to scan it and make a PDF, that would be helpful.