How to deal with Fear?

[Leo40]

Thank you go2 for the quote from Mme. de Salzmann and all others who have contributed to
this thread. It has made clear to me many things. I think fear und uncertainty are somehow
linked. Which leads directly to knowledge as the only tool of support.
Also the fear of rigorously exploring oneself is central; the fear being to discover that there is
"nobody home".

 

[cubbex]

Jumping from a snake is one thing. But recognizing that a letter from the bank is another kind of snake requires involvement from higher thinking centers, and so the fear is flavored differently. . ?

In which way requires higher thinking centers to do that?

 

[Woodsman]

Jumping from a snake is one thing. But recognizing that a letter from the bank is another kind of snake requires involvement from higher thinking centers, and so the fear is flavored differently. . ?

In which way requires higher thinking centers to do that?

Seeing a snake (or any creature with a face, implying teeth) moving in the shadows causes an automatic, almost knee-jerk response due to our internal wiring, as I understand things, in our old, reptilian brain. Whereas, a slip of paper sitting in the bushes does not have this same immediate effect.

The slip of paper (a bank statement, in this example) must first be recognized as being a communication from a financial institution, and the mind must then understand how this is relevant to oneself. The dangers linked to it, in order to be understood, require abstracting thinking, imagination, logic, etc., before the rest of the brain can properly react. I equate this with the higher thinking centers.

I suppose, with enough time and repeated experiences of pain, one could start to associate the sight of a slip of paper which looks like a bank statement with an automatic fear response, but I'm not at the point yet. I think it would take a lot to make me automatically jump at the sight of a piece of paper the same way I do when part of the forest floor suddenly starts moving unexpectedly. :)

 

[Buddy]

Also the fear of rigorously exploring oneself is central; the fear being to discover that there is "nobody home".

Why would this discovery be something to fear? What do you think it would mean? Would you even be able to "think" a meaning? And "who" would this discovery be significant to?

The biggest problems we cause ourselves in this Work seem to arise from circularity in the intellectual center. This appears to be the situation the The First Initiation was intended to address: To awaken essence to sublimate the personality.

Paradoxically, or ironically as the case may be, this point we're afraid of reaching is the very point where we can actually gain some ground in the Work. That is, the point where we approach our lowest state or condition of lucidity - when something of our awareness that is not identified with the personal pronoun "I" (persona - lity) actually notes this "nothingness" as a (linguistic) fact.

At this point it becomes plain enough to re-cognize in feeling terms that there is no "somebody" in linguistic terms to be "home". That was all illusion caused by the need to "speak" from a "place" in the left hemispheric language center.

So, if there were anything real to fear, how do you explain your existence as an adult? Apparently you made it through the time of childhood before any reason was needed to be concerned with "who" was home - the time before the language took hold and like the moon, personality waxed to sublimate essence.

As an associated aside, have you thought much about the "cosmology" in G's or Ibn 'Arabi's work? As without, so within and suchlike. :)

 

[cubbex]

:P Well the higher centers are working on, but I thought that was really hard at least to make contact with the emotional higher center, now making contact with the two it doesn't seem to be in that case, at least for me. Maye is instinct, I remember something the cs' said about knowledge filtering in that gut feeling, and maybe because of the higher thinking centers.

 

[mabar]

Although I still get lost with the centers concept –need to read more about it- thanks for this thread, it had help me to understand what had happend back then (anxiety/fear everytime I drove in highways, freeways, tunnels, bridges… mostly at night) and how to take (fear/anxiety) it with another perspective (Knowledge-applying it rightly? and pipe breathing), in fact last time I began to experience those sensations of fear/anxiety (solar plexus sensation, feeling too warm, cold sweat) while driving, they went away with a few pipe breaths. I do not drive often lately but it is due to other circumstances, last time I did those sensations did not came.

Of curse, it helps to be in another state of mind, having acquired more knowledge and self-steem, to talk about it, I did not do it, it last for almost then years.

 

[Leo40]

Bud: I have difficulty understanding your reasoning. The fear I described refers to the effort to
deconstruct the personality. Since I have some experience in acting I have used personalities
effectively in dealing with "the outside world"; this personality adjustment sometimes works almost
automatically. I could observe this when travelling on business and working with different peoples and
cultures. At this time I consider the persona some kind of tool or interface between the Self and the
world.
I am still reading and learning and recapitulating. In that context I am surprised meeting my persona
of earlier years and have difficulty recognising this person as me.Recapitulation is a work in
progress and when I achieved some clarity I will post the results.

 

[obyvatel]

Though not connected with the topic of "how to deal" with fear, it may be helpful to see how fear/anxiety can change as one goes through the process of personality disintegration and subsequent reintegration. Here is a post that talks about Dabrowski's view on fear.

 

[Buddy]

Bud: I have difficulty understanding your reasoning. The fear I described refers to the effort to deconstruct the personality. Since I have some experience in acting I have used personalities effectively in dealing with "the outside world"; this personality adjustment sometimes works almost automatically. I could observe this when travelling on business and working with different peoples and cultures. At this time I consider the persona some kind of tool or interface between the Self and the world.
I am still reading and learning and recapitulating. In that context I am surprised meeting my persona of earlier years and have difficulty recognising this person as me.Recapitulation is a work in progress and when I achieved some clarity I will post the results.

Thanks for the clarification, Leo. I interpreted this:

Also the fear of rigorously exploring oneself is central; the fear being to discover that there is "nobody home".

...to mean feeling a 'fear' of discovering that the Self is ultimately just another false construct like any imagined 'role'.

To clarify my reasoning a bit, I might add that for convenience at the moment, I am assuming that my Real self is integrated or blended with the embedding system (other 'selves', human relationships, nature, the universe). It's hard enough to tell where Self "ends" and the "rest of the system" begins, so until it is necessary to do so, I am experimenting with not even bothering to 'draw a line', or make that distinction. Even so, the linguistic convention of that personal pronoun is not so easily avoided, is it now? :)

 

[obyvatel]

To clarify my reasoning a bit, I might add that for convenience at the moment, I am assuming that my Real self is integrated or blended with the embedding system (other 'selves', human relationships, nature, the universe). It's hard enough to tell where Self "ends" and the "rest of the system" begins, so until it is necessary to do so, I am experimenting with not even bothering to 'draw a line', or make that distinction.

Hi Bud,

What is the "Real self"? The way you have written the term seems to indicate that you mean Real I but from reading your previous post it would seem that you are talking about essence . The two terms - Real I and essence have different meanings in 4th Way terminology.

I could be mistaken but I would think Leo40's statement
[quote author=Leo40]
Also the fear of rigorously exploring oneself is central; the fear being to discover that there is "nobody home".
[/quote]
is related to essence. This may tie in to a comment of Gurdjieff from ISOTM

[quote author=ISOTM]
"Moreover, it happens fairly often that essence dies in a man while his personality and his body are still alive. A considerable percentage of the people we meet in the streets of a great town are people who are empty inside, that is, they are actually already dead.
[/quote]

 

[ana]

Bud: I have difficulty understanding your reasoning.

Since you initially said: "the fear being to discover that there is nobody home", I think Bud gave a very good point here:

Paradoxically, or ironically as the case may be, this point we're afraid of reaching is the very point where we can actually gain some ground in the Work. That is, the point where we approach our lowest state or condition of lucidity - when something of our awareness that is not identified with the personal pronoun "I" (persona - lity) actually notes this "nothingness" as a (linguistic) fact.

These I's must die in order that the big I may be born. But how can they be made to die? They do not want to die. It is at this point that the possibility of awakening comes to the rescue. To awaken means to realize one's nothingness, that is to realize one's complete and absolute mechanicalness and one's complete and absolute helplessness.

Here he will see his impotence, his helplessness, and his nothingness; or again, when he begins to know himself a man sees that he has nothing that is his own, that is, that all that he has regarded as his own, his views, thoughts, convictions, tastes, habits, even faults and vices, all these are not his own, but have been either formed through imitation or borrowed from somewhere ready-made. In feeling this a man may feel his nothingness. And in feeling his nothingness a man should see himself as he really is, not for a second, not for a moment, but constantly, never forgetting it.
"This continual consciousness of his nothingness and of his helplessness will eventually give a man the courage to 'die,' that is, to die, not merely mentally or in his consciousness, but to die in fact and to renounce actually and forever those aspects of himself which are either unnecessary from the point of view of his inner growth or which hinder it. These aspects are first of all his 'false I,' and then all the fantastic ideas about his 'individuality,' 'will,' 'consciousness,' 'capacity to do,' his powers, initiative, determination, and so on.

"The study of the chief fault and the struggle against it constitute, as it were, each man's individual path, but the aim must be the same for all. This aim is the realization of one's nothingness. Only when a man has truly and sincerely arrived at the conviction of his own helplessness and nothingness and only when he feels it constantly, will he be ready for the next and much more difficult stages of the work.
"All that has been said up till now refers to real groups connected with real concrete work which in its turn is connected with what has been called the 'fourth way.'

That is why I say that there are many things worse than 'black magic.' Such are various 'occult' and theosophical societies and groups. Not only have their teachers never been at a school but they have never even met anyone who has been near a school. Their work simply consists in aping.

But imitation work of this kind gives a great deal of self-satisfaction. One man feels himself to be a 'teacher,' others feel that they are 'pupils,' and everyone is satisfied. No realization of one's nothingness can be got here and if people affirm that they have it, it is all illusion and self-deception, if not plain deceit. On the contrary, instead of realizing their own nothingness the members of such circles acquire a realization of their own importance and a growth of false personality.

 

[Lycan]

Interesting topic to say at least. Trough my life I also noticed at least two forms of fear. One that acts as warning that is something going on, just like gauge in the car that we use so we would have more knowledge about the state of a car, and second one that has its roots in imagination. The first one, sure a useful one , second not so much more of like nightmare of wakeful state and sure product of our past, stories, movies, some events, etc.

Someone mentioned Green Lantern back few posts and it has good point in that which says that it is not fear our greatest downfall but rather not acknowledgment that we fear. Here we come to that one how most obstacles in our life are putted there by ourselves.

When I was kid (8-9 years old) I used to search for snakes and observe them what they do. My father noticed that and took me on a little chat, that will prove to be crucial point of my imaginary fear against snakes. Movies, documentaries, stories had influence on that part too, but it started with father's little chat, and from that moment on I run every time I saw a snake.

Only few years back I understood what the heck was going on with that, when I had face to face (literally) with the snake. After that hit me and I was able to process all that subconscious data that had an effect to induce that imaginary fear. Today I do the same thing when I was kid, I like to watch snakes and there is no more of that imaginary fear. Yes there is still that form of fear which says to me that I need to be on alert because you never know what can trigger snake to attack and I'm ok with that because its useful one, I understand it.

Yes even then that form of fear, if one does not understand it can stall you and that's when shit hits the fan.
And it proved to be of most value that I do not fight fear, or run from it but rather try to understand it, shred some light upon it as some would say. There is wast amount of energy in it and it would be pity to discard it or fight it, because that energy is my own and we do not blame hammer when we hit our selves with it, or do we... hehe

Here's an analogy to this above. If we think of fear as energy than every wave at the sea is only a potential and one who has no knowledge of the sea and waves will be "eaten for breakfast" by that waves, while other will surf on that same waves and use potential of the waves to enjoy, discover something deeper, self improve, etc.

I am traceur and there is many encounters with both forms of fear mentioned here, and ones that practice Parkour do know how gravity can be a bi*ch let alone how many people get seriously hurt because they ignore that first form of fear.

So the only problem is to distinguish between these to fears and I thing solution lies in knowledge and the understanding of it. But most of people will go easy path, fight or flight without giving it little deeper insight into backbone of that fear they have... Only conscious effort will bring results to one, that has been a great lesson for me and more and more it proves to be crucial in one self improvement, the Work if u like it.

 

[Leo40]

Hi, Ana:

The quotes from ISOTM are very helpful. Time to read it again.
In my post I primarily tried to identify the different kinds of fear.
The realization that one's carefully constructed personality is an
utter illusion and totally worthless can certainly be frightening.

One needs to live through and experience moments of despair and
pain to find one's core; this inner knowing that one will never give up
the search. At these times one's true self can reach one's awareness
and can become an anker of faith.

 

[Buddy]

@obyvatel: Thanks for the terminology reminders you linked. I discovered I was using Real I, Real self and essence interchangeably. I see that "Real I" should be reserved for the internally unambiguous and conscious one (what I have previously referred to as the unified personality or self-consistent, non-contradictory self - a product of the Work).