Hyper-projection of sex in modern society.

[sid]

Hi Luke

If you search the forum for "sex", you will come across some very informative threads which may help clear your doubts.

Cheers!

Sid

 

[SeekinTruth]

Like Sid said, use the search function with sex and other keywords. Also finish the Wave and check out the Esoteric Glossary. But I'll try to give a brief summary of the issues for you and others. I'm not totally sure about much of this either but I'll try.

Wow, it is probably the biggest and most potent weapon at there disposal with regards to keeping people locked in, into STS-ness. It's quite amazing really, when sex enters the picture, everything else dissappears. You see nothing but it and you go after it like there was nothing else in the world.

Yes, but this can be reduced to a very large degree. If the external influences to increase this in ourselves is reduced, we'll experience that sex will not be so out of proportion with everything else, "everything else won't disappear when sex enters the picture." When one gets to a point where the effects of external (and internal mechanical) influences (and manipulations) are diminished, one can consistently make more STO choices that are probably cumulative. It's like much else, if one does something for the rewards / feel good or just because it's what's in them to do and is available as an unweighted choice to do.

From reading the comments, I can understand how it was used to lock people into STS-ness and how it is used now to keep us in this mode. However, what I dont understand is how it can free people from STS....?

To Quote:

"...the more so since in this law about which I speak, that is in the power of sex over people, are included many different possibilities. It includes the chief form of slavery and it is also the chief possibility of liberation. This is what you must understand."

"'New Birth,' of which we have spoken before, depends as much upon sex energy as do physical birth and the propagation of species."

How can it be a form of liberation in the true-est sense?? I have tried thinking about it but I cant figure it out. As far as I understand it, in this 3D STS WORLD, the only thing it can serve is to get us thinking and acting in an STS way. So I repeat myself again, how can it do the opposite of this and liberate an individual??

Sex: it is the principal motive force of all mechanicalness. All sleep, all hypnosis, depends upon it."

I agree with this aswell. My question is, how can one not act mechanically when sex is involved. Is this even possible?? I mean I know people can say, well if you work on yourself self-observe, eliminate all programs then you're almost free of being a mechanical reaction machine but cmon, I mean surely from that extract of the C's the pre-fall man was living in a 4d kind of world and they were not STS and I also assume they did not have any programs but they still got duped the chief weapon that lead to this deception being sex. If they, themselves could not see through the deception, how are we meant to??

It seems to me that there are many related issues here that we can't be absolutely certain about but I'll try to clarify as much as possible. Again there are degrees of mechanicalness, identification, self absorption, etc. The more pronounced these are the more pronounced the self serving, possessive-possessing aspect of the sex issue, like anything else (sex is just MORE powerful usually - but it still tied to ego / self aggrandizement).

What does Ouspensky mean when he says 'When sex is conscious of itself and does not cover itself up by anything else it is not the mechanicalness about which I am speaking. On the contrary sex which exist by itself and is not dependent on anything else is already a great achievement. But the evil lies in this constant self-deception!'

How can sex not be conscious of itself?? I mean everybody who is under this spell surely is very much aware they are under it and the reason they choose to remain under it is because of the feeling you get and as a result one seeks to pursue, get and maintain more of the same feeling - it is almost a biological drive that animates all centres, the mind is involved, emotions are involved and the body aswell is involved.. Also what does he mean when he says 'sex which exist by itself and is not dependent on anything else is already a great achievement. But the evil lies in this constant self-deception!' ?


Maybe someone can be kind enough to try and explain this to me in a non-complicated way??

Read In Search of the Miraculous and threads covering this issue in great depth -- THE ABUSE OF SEX. The distinction Gurdjieff is making is when sex energy is constantly being usurped by the other centers. There's a difference when one is honest about sexual desire and if it is hidden but drives other activity. G also says that abstinence is useful to the work depending on the person's type, but more importantly, if the abstinence is in all centers -- not just abstaining from sex but letting the other centers steal sex energy and also "giving free reign" to the other centers and fantasies. In other words, there are many ways to be obsessed with and enslaved by sex, it could just as well be by obsessively trying to deny and repress. Again search for "the abuse of sex / sex energy" for a more in-depth understanding.

It is also quite surprising when one hears it is the female energy that was essentially responsible for the fall. This is abit counter-intuitive, surely if any energy would want increased physicality and would be duped by 'sex' it would be the male energy as it is the more self-centred of the 2 as I understand it. Does this even sound plausible at all??

I have been reading the wave series(only covered about a third so far) and from there I think I saw a passage in which the C's were talking about 1000yr period as we measure it in which people who will graduate from 3D to 4D will have to live through am guessing in order to learn about all the different forces and dynamics that are involved in the act of living and I suppose one of this will be on the subject of sex and physical desire.... I'd like to know how they treat this in an STO universe? How is it a liberating force there and the exact opposite here?? Why was pre-fall man dissatisfied so to speak as to well try out what the lizzies were offering??

So many questions, not enough brain power or insight.

Finish reading the Wave and other material. The "female energy" is of a type that "MUST try everything" from my understanding. That is what is meant by "the female energy consorting 'with the wrong side'" The issue of what made the pre-fall humanity "dissatisfied," is related to this "female energy by nature trying all" issue in a larger context of STS and STO Thought Centers / Being vs. Non-Being Thought Centers, etc. The C's have said something like what happened at the time of "The Fall" is an "ongoing / eternal syndrome." In other words, some "soul groups" decide to experience the physicality / material world through "Short Wave Cycle" and others ethereal existence through "Long Wave Cycle." (Look for these terms as well for detailed explications). "The Fall" seems to me to be a process of a "series of falls" in some kind of "natural process" after a choice has been made to experience physical existence.

The sex energy is also indispensable for the "Birth" of the "Higher Bodies" etc. That's what G is talking about. It's all tied to Lower/Coarser vs. Higher/Finer "substances and energies" and densities, etc. The C's have also said (paraphrasing) that "souled"/"Adamic" humans recharge during sleep through the Sex Center which is in direct contact with 7D in its female thought of "Thou I Love, the relief of constriction." These seem all related. You should try to get a better understanding of STS and STO, the Third Force/Law of Three, "Good vs. Evil" and context / situation that decides which is which, etc.

You will come across much information on all these issues in your readings which center around the "core questions of existence," the degrees of Being / Non-Being (aka Creative / Entropic) type of consciousness and how they interact, etc. When you've done enough reading some of these things will become somewhat more clear and better connected in your understanding. Hope this brief summary was helpful for you and others in pointing to directions of how to find some of the answers.

 

[Adaryn]

Hi Luke,

It might help to keep in mind that the problem is not "sex" per se (according to my understanding) but the desire to possess, or use someone else for personal self-gratification -- the anticipation that it entails (expecting to get something for the self). This is pure STS, and left-brain oriented (abstraction, concepts, anticipation) VS right-brain (direct experience, NOW, no anticipation):

Another aspect of science that engages our Right hemisphere is art and music. The numerical structure of music is thought to be the direct link between art and science, and is thus a "conductor" for expression of direct experience into the active Left hemisphere. One can experience music directly, without any thinking or imagining or conceptualizing. And, at the same time, one is "experiencing" mathematics! No words can accurately and completely convey what something "sounds like." It is an act of direct perception.

Now, what does all this have to do with sex?

Well, actually, nothing.

But it has everything to do with making love.

You see, sex as SEX, is Left brain. It is desire and goal oriented. It is loaded with anticipation. When one thinks about "having sex," one has an image in the mind's eye of the "end result." Even if it is not a visual image, it is an abstract image or concept of orgasmic repletion. It is a focusing on a physical act without due consideration of the spiritual connections and implications.

Nowadays Sex comes in a variety of "plans" which relate back to specific "conceptual" purposes. There is the plan of technical performance and variety with the purpose of "being a good lover." There is neurotic celibacy or abstinence to "avoid guilt." There is masturbation that occurs either alone or with a partner with the purpose of "relieving tension." There is submission to a partner for "duty." There is just doing it because it has always been done to "maintain the status quo" or "habit." There is keeping up with the modern trends, to avoid "shame." One can have brief, promiscuous affairs out of schizoid fears of intimacy. One can have sex for reproduction. You can even "make love" just to enjoy sex, for intimacy and pleasure for the idea of "love and affection." In all of these, there is an "abstract audience" and "idea" behind the act.

And that is where the full power of the Right brain is short circuited and caused to release its creative potential to a momentary contraction to voidness that is uncontrolled, undirected, and unusable. And after such an act, one is, indeed, in a condition where Frequency Resonances can be used to chemically or physically alter the DNA, or "put out the eyes." Going after sex with in any of the above ways is a raping of the Right brain function. But, we will come back to this further on.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Thanks, Luthien, that excerpt sure says a lot with few words.

People can search their own experiences and recall the "flavor" of the gist of what Laura is saying in this quote from The Wave. In the common state of mind, right after an orgasm (not every single time but most) do you know that feeling of a certain type of depletion from the orgasmic repletion. A release and loss of the full power of "creative potential to a momentary contraction to voidness that is uncontrolled, undirected, and unusable." It might be a good idea to recall the before, anticipatory, period of orgasmic repletion, to the post orgasmic state in most cases. I think it has a real STS feel to it to me. So it's NOT sex per se that's the "problem" it's like Luthien said: "but the desire to possess, or use someone else for personal self-gratification -- the anticipation that it entails (expecting to get something for the self)."

 

[luke wilson]

Thanks luthien for making the distinction between sex the act itself and 'desire to possess, or use someone else for personal self-gratification -- the anticipation that it entails.' In this thread I was mainly referring to the latter - my thought process had those 2 very different things merged into 1 thing. Also thanks SeekinTruth for taking your time to try and answer the different questions I was asking. Definately food for thought.

 

[ana]

To elaborate a little more maybe we can ask ourselves, why do I have Sex?

 

[Alejo]

Why do I have sex? When I do.. The way I've learned to understand it is as a silent conversation, an expression of trust and intimacy, a communication of emotion.. That is the way I see it.

But of course if I may be honest there's also the pleasure of pleasing someone intimately, for me personally to please my partner is more important than to please myself, but of course this could Be another program of self gratification on a different way as in " it makes me feel good that I have the ability to make you feel good", this is a very interesting and important question, for it can be a program risen out of insecurities and not understanding, and it can make the "altruistic" thought of pleasing someone else in the same STS fashion because what is ultimately sought for is to feed the ego.

Wow... What a great question.

Maybe we can all come to a better understanding of sex and maybe shed some light on the whole subject which seems to me to be of grand importance but very very complex, maybe this is what gurdjieff meant by the cheif form of slavery as well as the cheif possibility for waking up.

My 2 cents here..:)

 

[Nawd]

I have not had a 'sex drive' for many years. I have enough physical pleasure while participating in sex, however it isn't something I think about or dream about or even have fantisies about (anymore at least).

Now there are so many issues that surround this sex issue with me. There was an attempted rape to me when I was 13 by the man I babysat for. At the time I thought 'god' was protecting me, because he just couldn't ...well ... do it. Not because of his conscience, but because of his failure to make his appentage do it's job. He would have taken my virginity. I quit babysitting his kids the next day.

So I have this weird relationship with sex. Aside from creating kids, I don't see the point. I don't have a drive for it, and if I could (be single), I'd be celibate.

Oh well, that is not the way of the world, when in Rome....

Obviously I have a lot of personal work to do still to deal with what in the world my 'problem(s)' is regarding the issue of sex. I still feel shame and a sort of sacrifice of dignity.

 

[ana]

Why do I have sex? When I do.. The way I've learned to understand it is as a silent conversation, an expression of trust and intimacy, a communication of emotion.. That is the way I see it.

It sounds beautiful, now I wonder, can this silent conversation, trust and intimacy, this communication exist without the union of the physical bodies?

 

[ana]

I have not had a 'sex drive' for many years. I have enough physical pleasure while participating in sex, however it isn't something I think about or dream about or even have fantisies about (anymore at least).

Now there are so many issues that surround this sex issue with me. There was an attempted rape to me when I was 13 by the man I babysat for. At the time I thought 'god' was protecting me, because he just couldn't ...well ... do it. Not because of his conscience, but because of his failure to make his appentage do it's job. He would have taken my virginity. I quit babysitting his kids the next day.

So I have this weird relationship with sex. Aside from creating kids, I don't see the point. I don't have a drive for it, and if I could (be single), I'd be celibate.

Oh well, that is not the way of the world, when in Rome....

Obviously I have a lot of personal work to do still to deal with what in the world my 'problem(s)' is regarding the issue of sex. I still feel shame and a sort of sacrifice of dignity.

I'm sorry you went through that, Dawn.

It is just lost of sex drive or also lack of emotions, motivation, creativity...? it seems common to suffer a disconnection with of our inner life in case of depression, anxiety, continued stress, or traumas.

 

[shijing]

So I have this weird relationship with sex. Aside from creating kids, I don't see the point. I don't have a drive for it, and if I could (be single), I'd be celibate.

....

Obviously I have a lot of personal work to do still to deal with what in the world my 'problem(s)' is regarding the issue of sex. I still feel shame and a sort of sacrifice of dignity.

Dawn, I'm really sorry to hear about your experience with the father of the kids you babysat for. In my understanding, your relationship with sex is not weird at all, but the normal outcome of the trauma that you experienced.

I just finished reading a chapter in Saharasia about Wilhelm Reich's analysis of sexuality in society, and it's relationship to what the author refers to as "armoring". To paraphrase, there seems to be a general mechanism in place (also in other primates) where reaction to trauma, and the disruption of otherwise natural physical and emotional energies that result from it, results in these energies being trapped in the body (the musculature for example) and creating a barrier between the experiencer and normally positive stimulus. It can also result in what he calls "pleasure anxiety," where what would otherwise be considered a pleasurable activity is associated, through trauma linked to that activity, with fear, guilt, and shame, resulting in the inability to enjoy an activity that would otherwise be naturally positive. Reich proposes a model where this kind of behavior, once it is perpetuated widely enough in society, becomes endemic (which I think is certainly the case, unfortunately), and creates a cycle of abuse -- the result of this abuse is for people to be estranged from their sexuality, and the two most common responses are to either shut down or otherwise engage in promiscuity, pursuing an ever-elusive reward which can never be claimed due to the armoring. Interestingly, one of the techniques that Reich used with his patients in therapy was deep breathing, to release negative emotions which had become bound up in the body through the process of armoring.

I hope this is helpful to you in some way -- I have known other people who have had traumatic experiences of one kind or another and feel exactly the way that you do, so I think it is not at all uncommon. I hope that you are successful, if you have decided that it is a goal of yours, in making progress in this part of your life. If you were amenable to it and could find a good one, this might be a good thing to work through with a therapist. Just my 2 cents, but remember that no matter what, you have the support and combined input of the forum

 

[truth seeker]

I'm really glad this topic was brought up. I'm so sorry Dawn for the terrible experience you went through. Growing up, I was also in several situations which I escaped by what I can only call grace and I too have had little interest in intimacy.

I also agree with Ana and Shijing that unfortunately this is a common occurrence.

 

[Nienna]

I'm really glad this topic was brought up. I'm so sorry Dawn for the terrible experience you went through. Growing up, I was also in several situations which I escaped by what I can only call grace and I too have had little interest in intimacy.

I also agree with Ana and Shijing that unfortunately this is a common occurrence.

But does intimacy necessarily have to be connected with sexuality? See Ana's question from above.

Why do I have sex? When I do.. The way I've learned to understand it is as a silent conversation, an expression of trust and intimacy, a communication of emotion.. That is the way I see it.

It sounds beautiful, now I wonder, can this silent conversation, trust and intimacy, this communication exist without the union of the physical bodies?

Having had similar experiences as what truth seeker is alluding to, I have had the same reactions to sex.

However, I see "intimacy" as something entirely different from "sexual acts" and would hopefully be able to learn about and enjoy this kind of intimacy with someone in the future. But there is a lot of learning of lessons needed to be done to get to this level, or so I think.

Dawn, I, too, am very sorry you have had to go through this experience. But I think that there are more women/girls that have this kind of sexually violated experiences than there are women/girls who have not. :( It's a very sad thing and speaks loudly about the mindset of the world we live in today.

I also am aware that there are many men/boys who have also been violated sexually.

It is a very sad thing to realize that this is much more common than it is not, and is a symptom of living a world ruled by psychopaths who have ponerized society making it easier for the pathological to find ways to do what they want to do and keep it hidden.

 

[Alejo]

im sorry to hear about your experience Dawn.. i have met many young girls and boys that have been through similar experiences and it does take a toll on how they experience intimacy in their lives.

Why do I have sex? When I do.. The way I've learned to understand it is as a silent conversation, an expression of trust and intimacy, a communication of emotion.. That is the way I see it.

It sounds beautiful, now I wonder, can this silent conversation, trust and intimacy, this communication exist without the union of the physical bodies?

well... this is very good question, i don't claim to have the answers for i am here on 3D and the way you grow in this planet is by being taught that nothing exist if it cannot be measured or touched, same happens with sex and i think that's the reason why no one has the capacity to conceptualize it beyond physical structure.

however, i can try and answer that question with some hypothesizing, and start by saying that whether or not it can be done beyond the physical union seems to me to be a matter of whether you are referring to an OP or a souled individual, i can imagine that for an OP there exist no possibility of achieving that level of intimacy beyond physicality, more over for a souled individual who's not aware of the possibilities seems to be equally impossible.

someone once told me that there's a big difference between sex and intimacy, the latter is achieved with a single person at a given time and is an expression of what i referred myself as higher qualities of humane possibilities (trust, commitment, consideration, respect), intimacy happens all the time outside the bedroom he would say for without this outside-the-bedroom interaction in the right way there can exist no intimacy, intimacy would then become the fruit of your entire relationship, and the symptoms observed in it can be traced to outside-the-bedroom interaction.

so in this way sexual interaction defined as the union of physical bodies is not required in order to have intimacy, but seems to me to be more of a fruit of the relationship. the physical expression of the emotional and intellectual interaction between two polar beings, if i may.

i guess in the context of the work i could say that, this silent conversation requires the work of all centers in unison in order for it to be of higher frequency and if we are talking about higher frequencies as Gurdjieff would explain we start to move away from mere physical expression.

i am trying to understand it as i write it, in other words you would require the work of the intellectual centre for memory, the emotional center for feelings, and the moving center for physical expression, the way that i can create an analogy is comparing it with writing, you need your memory of words and grammatical structure, then you need the emotions which would be what you would intend to express, and then you need the physical hand that is the ultimate tool for expression in this physical world...i don't know if this makes sense but i'm intending to understand my self as i write :P.

sexuality of a higher type can be (or it has come to me to be) understood as the expression of higher emotions and intellect via the physical body, in other words due to the nature of our current state of existence, the physical body becomes your vehicle of expression of either higher or lower emotions and ideas, which makes me wonder if there's such things as sexuality in higher realms of existence and how different can it be?, so i guess that it is possible to express it beyond physical union.

my confusing 2 cents here again.. :P if anyone wants to elaborate or try and complement please feel free....:)

 

[ana]

You started talking of your own experience and now you try to explain it outside your own experience, why?

We are not talking of any higher type of sexuality, we are not imagining or hypothesizing
we are simply trying to find the reason for us having sex, why do we have sex? :)

Maybe we just don't know why