Intense sadness

[anart]

Turgon you are making very good points.

If you are able to take responsibility by not having children because of what you know about you and the present state of the world, that's really great, I mean it.

Now, most people are not able to reach such a point of view. The flow of life doesn't care about it either, somehow.

Yesterday I met a few toads in the snow, because the ice is melting, the sun's warming, the days are getting longer. If they go the wrong way, which is pretty easy to do, they'll get frozen, eaten by a bird of prey... But nevertheless they go, and only some of them will reach their daisy pond.

A few decades ago I didn't want to have children for the very same reason as you, seeing it as a selfish act in an insane world. And because it appeared as a trap to me, which wouldn't allow to have the freedom needed for a change. Then I realized that I wasn't meant to live as some kind of a monk; and that children were an essential part of life.

OK, this is like creating more food for the Matrix. That's the way of life actually. Everything is food for something else, and life goes on.

That is mechanical life. Don't you want more? If not, why are you here?

Nature is acting through us, but we generally identify to our false egos, thinking they are the ones who are acting. Refusing or indulging are part of the game, thanks to our free will and consciousness, even if limited, conditioned etc.
It all depends on our level of awareness eventually. Being of service to others may happen through having or not having children, following who we are in harmony with what life is waiting from us. Still nowadays, even if it seems much wiser not to give birth to anybody.

What about the outcome ? Being frozen, eaten by a predator ? Some new genius may be ? Who knows ?..

The root of suffering comes from desire and ignorance. There is so much to learn, one way or another

fwiw

I'm not sure you're really making a point, or, if you are, it's not very clear. It sounds like you're basically saying that people should have children just because that's what people do - and 'people' wonder why the world is on the edge of a precipice...

 

[Esote]

Yes, anart, that is more or less mechanical life I was writing about. Wanting more ? Better, higher, of course !

I am not at all "saying that people should have children just because that's what people do". My point is that it's a personal concern related to one's evolution and purpose in life. Choosing to have a child nowadays doesn't necessarily mean that you are selfish and mechanical, it can be very altruist and conscious too. Choosing not to have a child can also be very selfish and mechanical as well, don't you think ?

It's not a matter of having a child is black, the opposite being white, you know that. And sure it is very important to warn people and raise their consciousness about what's going on...

I have been a child, that's why I'm here

 

[whitecoast]

Yes, anart, that is more or less mechanical life I was writing about. Wanting more ? Better, higher, of course !

I am not at all "saying that people should have children just because that's what people do". My point is that it's a personal concern related to one's evolution and purpose in life. Choosing to have a child nowadays doesn't necessarily mean that you are selfish and mechanical, it can be very altruist and conscious too. Choosing not to have a child can also be very selfish and mechanical as well, don't you think ?

It's not a matter of having a child is black, the opposite being white, you know that. And sure it is very important to warn people and raise their consciousness about what's going on...

I have been a child, that's why I'm here

I think choosing to bring a child into the world, when there are so many neglected children in foster care in need of homes, is selfish. What is it about having your own DNA, or rearing a blank psychological state, that appeals to you? That is biological narcissism, and has very little to do with giving back or helping others already in the world.

The good amount of qualifications and exceptions you're developing in your thought appears more to do with your system two trying to rationalize your subconscious impulses to reproduce. A lot of "yes, but" in other words.

If you think you may be wanting to reproduce to help you feel more mature and grown up, maybe consider doing volunteer work. That's been shown to boost people's narratives about themselves in socially beneficial ways. At the very least, if it doesn't alter your desire to reproduce then you can scratch that off as being one of the contributing factors influencing you.

 

[Esote]

I think choosing to bring a child into the world, when there are so many neglected children in foster care in need of homes, is selfish. What is it about having your own DNA, or rearing a blank psychological state, that appeals to you? That is biological narcissism, and has very little to do with giving back or helping others already in the world.

The good amount of qualifications and exceptions you're developing in your thought appears more to do with your system two trying to rationalize your subconscious impulses to reproduce. A lot of "yes, but" in other words.

If you think you may be wanting to reproduce to help you feel more mature and grown up, maybe consider doing volunteer work. That's been shown to boost people's narratives about themselves in socially beneficial ways. At the very least, if it doesn't alter your desire to reproduce then you can scratch that off as being one of the contributing factors influencing you.

What you say is great, whitecoast.
Actually my previous writings are not about me. I just wanted to share about a fundamental issue, giving a perspective which might help to clarify the subject, specially for those who are feeling an intense sadness partly related to the urge to have children...

 

[whitecoast]

[quote author=eoste] What you say is great, whitecoast. Actually my previous writings are not about me. I just wanted to share about a fundamental issue, giving a perspective which might help to clarify the subject, specially for those who are feeling an intense sadness partly related to the urge to have children...
[/quote]

Sorry maybe that should have been directed at Trajan...

 

[Esote]

[quote author=eoste] What you say is great, whitecoast. Actually my previous writings are not about me. I just wanted to share about a fundamental issue, giving a perspective which might help to clarify the subject, specially for those who are feeling an intense sadness partly related to the urge to have children...

Sorry maybe that should have been directed at Trajan...
[/quote]

No need to be sorry whitecoast :)
It was directed not only to Trajan but to anybody interested

 

[cubbex]

Yes, anart, that is more or less mechanical life I was writing about. Wanting more ? Better, higher, of course !

I am not at all "saying that people should have children just because that's what people do". My point is that it's a personal concern related to one's evolution and purpose in life. Choosing to have a child nowadays doesn't necessarily mean that you are selfish and mechanical, it can be very altruist and conscious too. Choosing not to have a child can also be very selfish and mechanical as well, don't you think ?

It's not a matter of having a child is black, the opposite being white, you know that. And sure it is very important to warn people and raise their consciousness about what's going on...

I have been a child, that's why I'm here

I'm sorry but I think you are distorting some concepts. First of all we don't really know what living in service of others really is, and even in this forum pretty few people may be closer to that style of life. Of course people come with different purposes, that doesn't mean that they are doing the correct thing, and of course depending on the circumstances something can either be the correct thing to do or the incorrect.

Choosing to have a child nowadays is of course and frequently something mechanical and selfish, it can't be altruistic and conscious, unless you know that the soul of your children is gonna completely enjoy or take the benefit of the life you are going to offer, some people suffer and can take the best of it, and some just live painfully, commit suicide, or contribute to the suffering of others. Lot of new parents today can be reading about all the suffering going on earth, turn to the other side and say "life is terrific... well let's have children", tell me where is the altruistic and conscious part about it?

And how choosing to not have children can be selfish and mechanical? because your wife or husband gets angry? as far as I know this planet is over populated, lots of children are given into adoption.

I really think having children would be an interesting and very wonderful experience, but in the present days doesn't look like a good idea.

 

[salinafaerie]

I just know that I do, maybe its a biological urge or something. I do know that I go against the grain versus many peoples thoughts on children.

They want to party like they are in high school well into there 30's, don't want to spend the money, only want one if any at all etc etc. I truly feel that many people who prescribe to the modern Western thought processes in regards to children (especially women) will one day wake up childless and alone on the wrong side of 40.

I am new to this thread and to posting on the forum but this has to be one of the most sexiest statements I've ever read here. Childless and the wrong side of 40?

If this is really how you feel about women who consciously or otherwise choose not to have children, please don't have any yourself. You might actually wind up with a daughter that makes choices you don't approve of.

 

[mkrnhr]

I'm not sure aggressively is necessary here. When one is confused, many conflicting thoughts, especially those induced by social pressure, may manifest. The issue with the thread is to clarify those inner conflicts in order sort out a rational direction that applies to the individual in that special case. There is no need of an emotional reaction to a situation that is emotional enough.

 

[salinafaerie]

I'm not sure aggressively is necessary here. When one is confused, many conflicting thoughts, especially those induced by social pressure, may manifest. The issue with the thread is to clarify those inner conflicts in order sort out a rational direction that applies to the individual in that special case. There is no need of an emotional reaction to a situation that is emotional enough.

My apology. I was very surprised by the comment and I did react emotionally. Again, my apology to all.

 

[Esote]

I'm sorry but I think you are distorting some concepts. First of all we don't really know what living in service of others really is, and even in this forum pretty few people may be closer to that style of life. Of course people come with different purposes, that doesn't mean that they are doing the correct thing, and of course depending on the circumstances something can either be the correct thing to do or the incorrect.

Choosing to have a child nowadays is of course and frequently something mechanical and selfish, it can't be altruistic and conscious, unless you know that the soul of your children is gonna completely enjoy or take the benefit of the life you are going to offer, some people suffer and can take the best of it, and some just live painfully, commit suicide, or contribute to the suffering of others. Lot of new parents today can be reading about all the suffering going on earth, turn to the other side and say "life is terrific... well let's have children", tell me where is the altruistic and conscious part about it?

And how choosing to not have children can be selfish and mechanical? because your wife or husband gets angry? as far as I know this planet is over populated, lots of children are given into adoption.

I really think having children would be an interesting and very wonderful experience, but in the present days doesn't look like a good idea.

Hi Prometeo, I'm glad to see that "we don't really know what living in service of others really is".
Therefore, how choosing to not have children cannot be selfish and mechanical ?
Fear of taking responsibilities, of engaging in a long lasting relation...

There have always been a lot of suffering going on earth. And a lot of love too, or we wouldn't be here. Conditioned, mechanical love for most, sure. But what isn't conditioned and mechanical ? And love doesn't care about reason, logic; it's confident and accepting what is and how it is...

I agree anyway that it doesn't look like a good idea to have children nowadays. Then I suspect that it has never been a good idea. It's not even an idea either; it's just the strongest life appeal we know of...

 

[Aiming]

Choosing to have a child nowadays doesn't necessarily mean that you are selfish and mechanical, it can be very altruist and conscious too. Choosing not to have a child can also be very selfish and mechanical as well, don't you think ?

Well, think about it: Choosing to have a child, most especially nowadays is indeed selfish and mechanical, if you look at the state of the world. Just read one day of Sott news and that should be enough to bring home the utter madness we're engulfed in. So what could possibly be "very altruistic and conscious" about bringing a child to this world? Do you mean this along a spiritual train of thought a la 'Well, I'm giving a soul the opportunity to learn, and that soul chooses to come to me, and I'm offering my service to that soul'? I think that 'reasoning' of this kind is nothing but concocting a narrative that sounds pleasing and acceptable to the false personality, while hiding the true driving forces behind it: that of programming; i.e., something that's been imposed on us and constantly being amplified from outside and inside - think A influences and how to discern them.

If we're going by what the Cs said about paying attention to objective reality left and right, this means to take what you see and know as your foundation to make choices. Thus, making choices based on the knowledge you have as opposed to "making choices" based on cultural/societal/biological programming, which is really not making choices but merely reacting as programmed.

And I agree with others on that a crucial point to really look into and ponder is the narcissistic drive in this, and how, when taking away all the rationalizations/narratives, having a child is for filling the emptiness inside and giving a purpose. How can one burden a child with such an immense weight he/she cannot possibly ever carry without serious harm? I mean, look at all the trauma that's been and is being created for children growing up in dysfunctional and abusive families (if they have a family to begin with), look at how people here on this forum struggle to work through what growing up in this world did to them in terms of buggy programming and the hangups and suffering it creates.

So, to me, the case is clear-cut.

 

[salinafaerie]

Choosing to have a child nowadays doesn't necessarily mean that you are selfish and mechanical, it can be very altruist and conscious too. Choosing not to have a child can also be very selfish and mechanical as well, don't you think ?

Well, think about it: Choosing to have a child, most especially nowadays is indeed selfish and mechanical, if you look at the state of the world. Just read one day of Sott news and that should be enough to bring home the utter madness we're engulfed in. So what could possibly be "very altruistic and conscious" about bringing a child to this world? Do you mean this along a spiritual train of thought a la 'Well, I'm giving a soul the opportunity to learn, and that soul chooses to come to me, and I'm offering my service to that soul'? I think that 'reasoning' of this kind is nothing but concocting a narrative that sounds pleasing and acceptable to the false personality, while hiding the true driving forces behind it: that of programming; i.e., something that's been imposed on us and constantly being amplified from outside and inside - think A influences and how to discern them.

If we're going by what the Cs said about paying attention to objective reality left and right, this means to take what you see and know as your foundation to make choices. Thus, making choices based on the knowledge you have as opposed to "making choices" based on cultural/societal/biological programming, which is really not making choices but merely reacting as programmed.

And I agree with others on that a crucial point to really look into and ponder is the narcissistic drive in this, and how, when taking away all the rationalizations/narratives, having a child is for filling the emptiness inside and giving a purpose. How can one burden a child with such an immense weight he/she cannot possibly ever carry without serious harm? I mean, look at all the trauma that's been and is being created for children growing up in dysfunctional and abusive families (if they have a family to begin with), look at how people here on this forum struggle to work through what growing up in this world did to them in terms of buggy programming and the hangups and suffering it creates.

So, to me, the case is clear-cut.

My personal situation is this: my partners mother is a mid-wife and there is all kinds of pressure on him and me to have a child and I refuse for the reasons in this thread. I am not on the other side of 40 but getting there and I'm just tired of the endless discussions of how wonderful birth is and we better get on it, etc.

My in-laws are educated people but of the flower power generation and are part of large families/communities and think we will be missing out if we choose otherwise. They are conscious on many matters, for example, they didn't circumcise my partner, but on reproduction they are obviously invested due to my mother-in-laws work and their own wants for a grandchild from my partner.

Any advice anyone?

Again, sorry I reacted emotionally earlier. I think this explains some of that.

 

[anart]

Any advice anyone?

I don't think anyone here would be comfortable giving you advice on such a personal and obviously emotional issue.

 

[whitecoast]

My personal situation is this: my partners mother is a mid-wife and there is all kinds of pressure on him and me to have a child and I refuse for the reasons in this thread. I am not on the other side of 40 but getting there and I'm just tired of the endless discussions of how wonderful birth is and we better get on it, etc.

My in-laws are educated people but of the flower power generation and are part of large families/communities and think we will be missing out if we choose otherwise. They are conscious on many matters, for example, they didn't circumcise my partner, but on reproduction they are obviously invested due to my mother-in-laws work and their own wants for a grandchild from my partner.

Sorry to hear about your difficulties, salinafaerie. I remember there IS a thread around here somewhere where people recount dealing with societal pressure to have children, but the search function isn't turning anything up at the moment... can anyone else find it?

Is your partner on-board with your decision not to have children? Was this something discussed much during courtship? Perhaps one thing that may help (if his desire to have children only stems from his parents' expectations - which you may have trouble determining at this point) could be to share with him some of the recommended books on Narcissism (if you haven't read these yet I HIGHLY recommend them). It can be a very difficult issue for everyone involved, since it's hard for people to untangle their true motivations and figure out what emotions are true to themselves and what emotions are external programming from parents, peers, society, etc.

Narcissism "Big Five"
Myth of Sanity - Martha Stout
The Narcissistic Family - Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman
Trapped in the Mirror - Elan Golomb
Unholy Hungers - Barbara E. Hort
Character Disturbance: The Phenomenon of Our Age - George K. Simon

Since you've evidently been chewing this over in your head a lot, I'd also recommend reading the Redirect Thread, which talks about how journalling in an objective way can help us work through emotional and personal issues by reshaping our self-narratives. I hope you find some of these resources helpful.