Intense sadness

[salinafaerie]

Any advice anyone?

I don't think anyone here would be comfortable giving you advice on such a personal and obviously emotional issue.

I'm sorry, I thought feedback was given here all the time.

I hope I was clear that I am fine with my decision. It's those around me that are not fine, meaning the in-laws and the extended family. I had made this decision before I met my partner. He was aware of my decision before we got married and he doesn't want children either. His parents knew before, too, but I think they thought we would change our minds. If anything my resolve is stronger than ever.

 

[salinafaerie]

Sorry to hear about your difficulties, salinafaerie. I remember there IS a thread around here somewhere where people recount dealing with societal pressure to have children, but the search function isn't turning anything up at the moment... can anyone else find it?

Is your partner on-board with your decision not to have children? Was this something discussed much during courtship? Perhaps one thing that may help (if his desire to have children only stems from his parents' expectations - which you may have trouble determining at this point) could be to share with him some of the recommended books on Narcissism (if you haven't read these yet I HIGHLY recommend them). It can be a very difficult issue for everyone involved, since it's hard for people to untangle their true motivations and figure out what emotions are true to themselves and what emotions are external programming from parents, peers, society, etc.

Narcissism "Big Five"
Myth of Sanity - Martha Stout
The Narcissistic Family - Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman
Trapped in the Mirror - Elan Golomb
Unholy Hungers - Barbara E. Hort
Character Disturbance: The Phenomenon of Our Age - George K. Simon

Since you've evidently been chewing this over in your head a lot, I'd also recommend reading the Redirect Thread, which talks about how journalling in an objective way can help us work through emotional and personal issues by reshaping our self-narratives. I hope you find some of these resources helpful.

Thank you, whitecoast.

Yes, my partner is on board with no baby-on-board and it was discussed plenty before our marriage. I feel strongly that we are both sure of our decision. But obviously, I had a reaction here on the thread so something is still out of whack. Some of that is surely what I saw as a sexiest comment because I wonder if that would have been said about a man hitting 40, but yes, the more I learn and desire to awaken, the more I want to engage with my extended family and I just can't because they are just not awake, even though because they are "conscious" flower power people they really think that they are. Any feedback on how to deal with that effectively? What I am into is way too "negative" for them.

Thanks, again, and for the reading list, too.

 

[anart]

Any advice anyone?

I don't think anyone here would be comfortable giving you advice on such a personal and obviously emotional issue.

I'm sorry, I thought feedback was given here all the time.

I hope I was clear that I am fine with my decision. It's those around me that are not fine, meaning the in-laws and the extended family. I had made this decision before I met my partner. He was aware of my decision before we got married and he doesn't want children either. His parents knew before, too, but I think they thought we would change our minds. If anything my resolve is stronger than ever.

Then there's really no need for advice, is there?

 

[Mike]

Yes, my partner is on board with no baby-on-board and it was discussed plenty before our marriage. I feel strongly that we are both sure of our decision. But obviously, I had a reaction here on the thread so something is still out of whack. Some of that is surely what I saw as a sexiest comment because I wonder if that would have been said about a man hitting 40, but yes, the more I learn and desire to awaken, the more I want to engage with my extended family and I just can't because they are just not awake, even though because they are "conscious" flower power people they really think that they are. Any feedback on how to deal with that effectively? What I am into is way too "negative" for them.

Thanks, again, and for the reading list, too.

I think the bolded part is what most everyone deals with when they find valuable and important information when they are starting to awaken. I think it is natural to want to share and try to get others that we care about to understand why we feel the way we do about the state of the world, etc. I think you should search and read about ‘strategic enclosure’ and come to understand that if people, such as your extended family, are just not open to exploring what you have discovered then you just have to let them be how they will be and not push to share the information or change them It just doesn’t help them or yourself to push ideas and understandings if they aren’t open to it.

 

[salinafaerie]

I think the bolded part is what most everyone deals with when they find valuable and important information when they are starting to awaken. I think it is natural to want to share and try to get others that we care about to understand why we feel the way we do about the state of the world, etc. I think you should search and read about ‘strategic enclosure’ and come to understand that if people, such as your extended family, are just not open to exploring what you have discovered then you just have to let them be how they will be and not push to share the information or change them It just doesn’t help them or yourself to push ideas and understandings if they aren’t open to it.

I have read some on strategic enclosure but it's new and I'm working with it carefully but I am proud of the recent progress I've made not imposing my beliefs on anyone. It's been a swift lesson and in no small part from what I've read here. In the past, I've had people try to push ideas on me and I've tried to push idea onto others and it's no fun on either side.

But still, I love my in-laws and wish they weren't so disappointed in us, even though they mostly act like everything is fine.

 

[Esote]

Choosing to have a child nowadays doesn't necessarily mean that you are selfish and mechanical, it can be very altruist and conscious too. Choosing not to have a child can also be very selfish and mechanical as well, don't you think ?

Well, think about it: Choosing to have a child, most especially nowadays is indeed selfish and mechanical, if you look at the state of the world. Just read one day of Sott news and that should be enough to bring home the utter madness we're engulfed in. So what could possibly be "very altruistic and conscious" about bringing a child to this world? Do you mean this along a spiritual train of thought a la 'Well, I'm giving a soul the opportunity to learn, and that soul chooses to come to me, and I'm offering my service to that soul'? I think that 'reasoning' of this kind is nothing but concocting a narrative that sounds pleasing and acceptable to the false personality, while hiding the true driving forces behind it: that of programming; i.e., something that's been imposed on us and constantly being amplified from outside and inside - think A influences and how to discern them.

If we're going by what the Cs said about paying attention to objective reality left and right, this means to take what you see and know as your foundation to make choices. Thus, making choices based on the knowledge you have as opposed to "making choices" based on cultural/societal/biological programming, which is really not making choices but merely reacting as programmed.

And I agree with others on that a crucial point to really look into and ponder is the narcissistic drive in this, and how, when taking away all the rationalizations/narratives, having a child is for filling the emptiness inside and giving a purpose. How can one burden a child with such an immense weight he/she cannot possibly ever carry without serious harm? I mean, look at all the trauma that's been and is being created for children growing up in dysfunctional and abusive families (if they have a family to begin with), look at how people here on this forum struggle to work through what growing up in this world did to them in terms of buggy programming and the hangups and suffering it creates.

So, to me, the case is clear-cut.

My personal situation is this: my partners mother is a mid-wife and there is all kinds of pressure on him and me to have a child and I refuse for the reasons in this thread. I am not on the other side of 40 but getting there and I'm just tired of the endless discussions of how wonderful birth is and we better get on it, etc.

My in-laws are educated people but of the flower power generation and are part of large families/communities and think we will be missing out if we choose otherwise. They are conscious on many matters, for example, they didn't circumcise my partner, but on reproduction they are obviously invested due to my mother-in-laws work and their own wants for a grandchild from my partner.

Any advice anyone?

Again, sorry I reacted emotionally earlier. I think this explains some of that.

A clear-cut case for me is that we are all trapped in an hypnotic web, inside which we may be dreaming that we are awake and that the others are asleep...

I understand your emotional reaction salinafaerie. Actually I think Trajan was rather emphasizing that women were not able to have kids for ever, when men can.
Unless there is medically assisted procreation.
Which is getting me to this remark : Gays in the Western world are fighting to have the right to get married and raise their own children through medically assisted procreation.
This goes against nature. Why not, it's a question of will, whether free or automatic ? Is there love ? Is it selfish ?
And not wanting to have children goes against nature too. The same questions apply...
Whatever, in a way going against nature may be a stepping stone outside the matrix. Is that right ? As for everything else, it depends, I suppose.
Now, what's sure is that there is love from most mothers and fathers for their natural children.
But nowadays it's so awful ! Yes, it has always been as far as I know; it may also be delightful. Look, it's a terrible time, we're gonna suffer and die ! As always, yes; and live, too. But now it's so much worst ! Yes; then it depends on the point of view,individual, collective, dimensional, cosmic...
We are presently able to deal with these questions because we have a full stomach, live in a technological society and have some freedom to choose (so much more than before). And because we were procreated with (more or less) love. Mechanical and selfish love may be, but love anyway, and a lot of care, and deep hopes...
At least we owe some gratitude to our ancestors, to our world, to what and where we are. That is simply part of being in service of others imho.
Thank you for your presence and attention

 

[Trajan]

I just know that I do, maybe its a biological urge or something. I do know that I go against the grain versus many peoples thoughts on children.

They want to party like they are in high school well into there 30's, don't want to spend the money, only want one if any at all etc etc. I truly feel that many people who prescribe to the modern Western thought processes in regards to children (especially women) will one day wake up childless and alone on the wrong side of 40.



I am new to this thread and to posting on the forum but this has to be one of the most sexiest statements I've ever read here. Childless and the wrong side of 40?

If this is really how you feel about women who consciously or otherwise choose not to have children, please don't have any yourself. You might actually wind up with a daughter that makes choices you don't approve of.

You are reading that comment incorrectly.

It deals with women (and men to a lesser extent) who want children but put it off indefinitely. I am referring to the fact that people well into their 20's and 30's continue to act as if they are 17 years old.

 

[anart]

Unless there is medically assisted procreation.
Which is getting me to this remark : Gays in the Western world are fighting to have the right to get married and raise their own children through medically assisted procreation.
This goes against nature.

eoste, your homophobia and bigotry is showing again. This forum is not the place for that, as it is ignorant and insulting to many members.

Artificial insemination is not only used by "gays" wanting to have children, it is also used by heterosexual couples with fertility issues - so by your logic that all "goes against nature". The fact that it exists at all suggests that it does not "go against nature", since if it happens, it is in accordance with nature else it would not be possible at all since "nature" is reality itself. Yes, human technology is involved, but if one considers the idea that human technology is also part of the natural world, your statement makes little sense. fwiw.

Personally, I think anyone who brings a child into this world at this point in time is selfish and short-sighted and merely providing more food for the moon - and increasing the sum of the suffering on this planet.

 

[Trajan]

I think choosing to bring a child into the world, when there are so many neglected children in foster care in need of homes, is selfish. What is it about having your own DNA, or rearing a blank psychological state, that appeals to you? That is biological narcissism, and has very little to do with giving back or helping others already in the world.

The good amount of qualifications and exceptions you're developing in your thought appears more to do with your system two trying to rationalize your subconscious impulses to reproduce. A lot of "yes, but" in other words.

If you think you may be wanting to reproduce to help you feel more mature and grown up, maybe consider doing volunteer work. That's been shown to boost people's narratives about themselves in socially beneficial ways. At the very least, if it doesn't alter your desire to reproduce then you can scratch that off as being one of the contributing factors influencing you.

I am not against adopting but yes I do want children that are biologically mine.

I do volunteer a little bit.

 

[anart]

I am not against adopting but yes I do want children that are biologically mine.

Maybe it would help you get clarity on this to explain exactly why it's so important to you that you have children that are biologically yours?

 

[Gimpy]

I have noticed that from time to time (for about the last 12-13 years) I have experienced occasional bouts of intense sadness. When I say intense I do mean absolutely intense. One thing I noticed that triggers it is that after I have spent a day or two hanging out with friends and go back home where I am alone (and currently single against my will) it can hit me like a freight train. It eventually goes away but man to I feel alone/sad/depressed. Its like I see something that other people have and feel I do not and it is a negative emotional trigger. Has anyone else experienced this before?

By nature I am introverted and so I keep a small circle of friends and generally I don't mind/actually enjoy being (left) alone but not always.

Do you have pets? That's an option to consider.

 

[Jono]

I am not against adopting but yes I do want children that are biologically mine.

I also think it's quite selfish to bring a child into this world, unless one has worked long and hard enough to fully attain all that is possible for man in these grim times (including learning all your lessons). Then you would be able to provide adequate guidance and protection for your child.

Do you have pets? That's an option to consider.

I can image more advanced 2D companions, like an intelligent dog, would be great if you feel that sort of void in your life :)

 

[salinafaerie]

I understand your emotional reaction salinafaerie. Actually I think Trajan was rather emphasizing that women were not able to have kids for ever, when men can.

Thank you eoste but I must add this to the conversation.

Although this may have the opposite affect of what I am intending to encourage, which is not having children for the societal pressurized sake of having children, and this information might encourage Trajan to get it on, so to speak, but recent studies have indicated that, although, men may be able to biologically father children well into their senior years, it is older father's (past 40) DNA that is mostly responsible for genetic defects in children, not mother's DNA as was thought.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/02/15/the-dangers-of-older-dads-2/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect

Unless there is medically assisted procreation.

My 2 cents is that medically assisted procreation is absolutely against nature and can't be entirely healthy for any child born from it. The child may look and behave normally but who's to say a child born to those same parents through the "natural" way wouldn't be more beautiful and/or smarter, using all the ways we measure those attributes, ie.. IQ tests for one. And then there are the soul issues to consider, as well. Does the soul seat in the same way as a child born naturally? I honestly don't know enough yet about soul seating but seems logical there may be a difference depending on how the being came into existence, no?

When I put meat in the freezer, no matter how well it is sealed, it does not taste the same to me when I dethaw it and eat it as fresh meat does. I will never believe that frozen sperm or eggs are not affected negatively in some ways, but I maybe digress.

 

[salinafaerie]

I just know that I do, maybe its a biological urge or something. I do know that I go against the grain versus many peoples thoughts on children.

They want to party like they are in high school well into there 30's, don't want to spend the money, only want one if any at all etc etc. I truly feel that many people who prescribe to the modern Western thought processes in regards to children (especially women) will one day wake up childless and alone on the wrong side of 40.



I am new to this thread and to posting on the forum but this has to be one of the most sexiest statements I've ever read here. Childless and the wrong side of 40?

If this is really how you feel about women who consciously or otherwise choose not to have children, please don't have any yourself. You might actually wind up with a daughter that makes choices you don't approve of.

You are reading that comment incorrectly.

It deals with women (and men to a lesser extent) who want children but put it off indefinitely. I am referring to the fact that people well into their 20's and 30's continue to act as if they are 17 years old.

I apologize if I am reading you incorrectly Trajan but I still must be because you first statement still indicates that you have issues with women (and men to a lesser extent) who want to have children but put it off indefinitely. You are still blaming them for something you see they are doing wrong, are you not?

And your second statement, also, takes issue with people you see as not conforming to your idea of what behavior should look like based on biological time on the earth. What's that really all about?

 

[anart]

My 2 cents is that medically assisted procreation is absolutely against nature and can't be entirely healthy for any child born from it. The child may look and behave normally but who's to say a child born to those same parents through the "natural" way wouldn't be more beautiful and/or smarter, using all the ways we measure those attributes, ie.. IQ tests for one. And then there are the soul issues to consider, as well. Does the soul seat in the same way as a child born naturally? I honestly don't know enough yet about soul seating but seems logical there may be a difference depending on how the being came into existence, no?

I don't think there is any reason whatsoever to come to that conclusion based on the thousands of children who have been born this way. I happen to have a family member who is the result of in vitro fertilization and this young person is brilliant and kind and an amazing kid, so, even though that is an n of 1, it still carries a lot of real life, real experience weight.