Introduction to Beelzebub's Tales 'Deconstruction'/Study Group

[Dracount]

Interesting thoughts. In my personal development being aware and sort of picking up when I begin to move towards gravitational pulls in my own being was a great step and I am connecting that to the law of falling.

Now I am trying, when I am able to, from the outset define my goals and path, and be aware when something exerts a gravitational pull on me. The next step I imagine would be to, from the outset anticipate those forces and use them or steer clear instead of reacting only once they have come into my awareness and I am already reacting to their influence on me.

I don't know if I am incorrectly projecting my own ideas onto the ships, well that I most certainly am doing, rather are those ideas correct is the burning question.

I haven't got to book two yet. I have been going through parts of book 1 again but maybe I should complete all 3 before going too far in depth into book 1.

Are the other authors worth spending time on when there is so much in BT? But thanks will definately check them out.

 

[RflctnOfU]

Interesting thoughts. In my personal development being aware and sort of picking up when I begin to move towards gravitational pulls in my own being was a great step and I am connecting that to the law of falling.

Now I am trying, when I am able to, from the outset define my goals and path, and be aware when something exerts a gravitational pull on me. The next step I imagine would be to, from the outset anticipate those forces and use them or steer clear instead of reacting only once they have come into my awareness and I am already reacting to their influence on me.

I don't know if I am incorrectly projecting my own ideas onto the ships, well that I most certainly am doing, rather are those ideas correct is the burning question.

I haven't got to book two yet. I have been going through parts of book 1 again but maybe I should complete all 3 before going too far in depth into book 1.

Are the other authors worth spending time on when there is so much in BT? But thanks will definately check them out.

Reading the secondary literature can give context regarding the teaching, of which the Tales is a sort of bible. There are also important clues in Meetings as well as Life is Real that can aid in understanding Beelzebub's Tales. It is a bit like chemistry. There are various 'elements' scattered throughout the three series, and it is up to us, or, if you will, our efforts in struggling with the material, that make possible the 'chemical reactions' that create new 'compounds'. Gurdjieff said: "My job was to write the book. Yours is to understand it.", in response to a question about what BTs meant.

I recommend familiarizing yourself thoroughly with all of Gurdjieff's writings, as well as first hand accounts of how he taught. He said of BTs "All the keys are there, but they are nowhere near the doors".

Hope this helps. :)

Kris

 

[RflctnOfU]

A thought that just occurred to me, as I was almost asleep, is that another meaning of the three systems of ships in BT are connected to the laws of accident, fate, and destiny/will that G talks about in ISotM.

Kris

 

[RflctnOfU]

A thought that just occurred to me, as I was almost asleep, is that another meaning of the three systems of ships in BT are connected to the laws of accident, fate, and destiny/will that G talks about in ISotM.

Kris

Should have been accident/personality, fate/essence, and destiny/will...

Kris

 

[Dracount]

Should have been accident/personality, fate/essence, and destiny/will...

I think I understand the first and last but can you please explain the fate/essence idea? And where that fits into the ships?

Some more thoughts... The law of falling: this is the natural state of all things. It happens to everyone and everything and is always exerting it's influence.

The second ship by Venoma is perfect in"empty" space and is designed to generates itself to create the a vacuum. This allows it to move without having to fuel itself.

The key is the fuel I think. It doesn't need energy to generate momentum anymore. It needs electromagnetism to create a vacuum.

So less raw fuel is needed: using nature to our advantage to save energy. However we are risking being sucked in to the forces that exert a force in nature. We push ourselves in 1 direction but great care is needed so that this forces don't overtake us and control us.

A key idea also is the atmospheres and gasses. These seem to be parts of reality which would normally stop us from moving by gravity and so a vacuum is created. I think the vacuum is our focus. We ignore things that we would otherwise be forced to stop and consider. This sounds like tunnel vision. I see something and I want it. The fact that it may put a dent in my wallet is ignored. But it is not practical to consider every thing going on otherwise I would never get anywhere so I focus internally on my direction and externally on my goal.

The law of falling is a law. We can't to anything about it. It is always there. So we make use of it at a risk of being sucked into its pull. So great care is needed and the ship must be slowed. This slowing is so we can make it past the gravity field without being pulled in.

 

[RflctnOfU]

I think I understand the first and last but can you please explain the fate/essence idea? And where that fits into the ships?

According to G fate is astrology, which only deals with essence. I think all of your questions are good. However, without being familiar with the rest of his written material, you won't find the answers. Analysis comes later. Acquire data first.

Kris

 

[obyvatel]

Some more thoughts... The law of falling: this is the natural state of all things. It happens to everyone and everything and is always exerting it's influence.
...................
So less raw fuel is needed: using nature to our advantage to save energy. However we are risking being sucked in to the forces that exert a force in nature. We push ourselves in 1 direction but great care is needed so that this forces don't overtake us and control us.
....................

We ignore things that we would otherwise be forced to stop and consider. This sounds like tunnel vision. I see something and I want it. The fact that it may put a dent in my wallet is ignored. But it is not practical to consider every thing going on otherwise I would never get anywhere so I focus internally on my direction and externally on my goal.

The law of falling is a law. We can't to anything about it. It is always there. So we make use of it at a risk of being sucked into its pull.

My understanding is on similar lines as yours, Dracount. We start with an aim, study the environment and utilize its forces as best we can to serve the aim. The Stoics advised to benefit from every situation in the context of self development - which was echoed by Gurdjieff's 4th Way principle of using daily events in regular life to build the soul. You may find this thread
Was Gurdjieff a Stoic interesting.

To bring this type of understanding from abstract to practical, examples are needed. Otherwise we tend to fall into wiseacreing - we tend to say things which sound lofty but does not touch our lives in meaningful ways.

Regarding aim and how to use the environment to serve that aim - the life of Julius Caesar is a shining example. Reading his biography to start with and then following some of the forum discussions on him and the radio show
julius-caesar--deceitful-demagogue-or-the-peoples-champion may be useful in grounding some of the concepts you outlined above.

 

[naorma]

I just started reading Beelzebubs Tales and am very impressed about his language.

I am reading this book in German and it is very seldom (especially nowadays) that you find a text that forces you to think and follow the language patterns exactly. I often have to read a sentence three times - - -

Also I can see his intentions in writing that book. The C's had mentioned that Gurdijeffs problem was that he had no follower. I think one can see this in his first chapter when he describes how he comes to write.

Very remarkable! Very interesting! I have to read slowly. Normally I am a very quick reader, but this time - after 20 pages (maximum) it is enough. And I stop for the next day.

Thanks to all for the interesting links about secondary literature, too!