RflctnOfU said:
I didn't mean to come across as snide to you. I'm actually quite pleased someone decided to spearhead an organized deciphering of that old tome in this thread and others. :)
Introduction to Beelzebub's Tales 'Deconstruction'/Study Group
- Thread starter RflctnOfU
- Start date
I didn't mean to come across as snide to you. I'm actually quite pleased someone decided to spearhead an organized deciphering of that old tome in this thread and others. :)
whitecoast said:
It's okay. Your joke managed to 'tickle' my self importance. I thought about this today during a break between rehearsals. The thing is, this is my first 'real' thread, and I am more emotionally engaged/attached to the idea of this "being taken seriously", than I realized. I was just being touchy, which is quite unusual, as well as informative. I do request that you hold off, at least for a while, on "running ahead" in individual sections until more are posted, for the purpose of cross-links. I think I may combine Ch. 4-6 though, as they are basically one idea, split into three (g was consistent with application!)
Kris
Beelzebub's Tales 'Deconstruction'/Study Group -- Chapter 1 - p. 19-36
Before reading this thread, please take the time to read the intro thread here.
With this chapter, I will only be posting, to start with, a brief section that has given me pause since I started studying this book in 2006/7ish. I would like other members involved in this effort to tackle chapter 1, whatever sections stand out to you/tickle your 'flag-o-meter', with the addendum that this Chapter is, according to Orage, "as an overture is to an opera, in which all the themes are touched upon lightly."
The brief section mentioned:
What is really being said in this brief passage??
Kris
Before reading this thread, please take the time to read the intro thread here.
With this chapter, I will only be posting, to start with, a brief section that has given me pause since I started studying this book in 2006/7ish. I would like other members involved in this effort to tackle chapter 1, whatever sections stand out to you/tickle your 'flag-o-meter', with the addendum that this Chapter is, according to Orage, "as an overture is to an opera, in which all the themes are touched upon lightly."
The brief section mentioned:
What is really being said in this brief passage??
Kris
Re: Beelzebub's Tales 'Deconstruction'/Study Group -- Chapter 4 - The Law of Falling
Here is the thread on Ch. 5 and 6, which are part of the same idea.
Kris
Here is the thread on Ch. 5 and 6, which are part of the same idea.
Kris
Re: Beelzebub's Tales 'Deconstruction'/Study Group -- Chapter 4 - The Law of Falling
I think AI is right in the suggetion that Venoma's 'ship' is the way of 'fakir/monk/yogi', in light of bolded in quoted section above. Elekilpomagtistzen is 'a totality composed of two independant parts of the Omnipresent Okidanokh.' The Okidanokh is a three fold 'thing'. These 'shutters' are blinding regarding two parts (Elekilpomagtistzen) of the threeness (body/heart/mind). In other words, ONLY body, or heart, or mind.
Does this make sense??
Kris
RflctnOfU said:
I think AI is right in the suggetion that Venoma's 'ship' is the way of 'fakir/monk/yogi', in light of bolded in quoted section above. Elekilpomagtistzen is 'a totality composed of two independant parts of the Omnipresent Okidanokh.' The Okidanokh is a three fold 'thing'. These 'shutters' are blinding regarding two parts (Elekilpomagtistzen) of the threeness (body/heart/mind). In other words, ONLY body, or heart, or mind.
Does this make sense??
Kris
Just want to make a short post pointing out that studies of Gurdjieff's writings (as opposed to his teachings, primarily via Ouspensky) have kind of taken off in recent years. Here's a list of all the books on his writings published that I'm aware of.
Orage's "Commentaries" (based on talks from 1926-1930) (published in full in 2013)
Bennett's "Talks on Beelzebub's Tales" (based on talks from 1950-1974, published in 1977)
1990 - Challenger's "Philosophy and Art in Gurdjieff's Beelzebub"
1993 - Smith's "Gurdjieff: Cosmic Secrets"
1997 - Buzzell's "Man: A Three-Brained Being"
2000 - Lonsdale's "Gurdjieff and the Arch-Preposterous"
2002 - Hunter/Pogson's "The True Myth"
2002 - Wellbeloved's "Gurdjieff, Astrology & Beelzebub's Tales"
2003 - Tereschenko's "Mister Gurdjieff's Hapax Legomena"
2003 - Holmes's "The Slugs"
2005 - Buzzell's "Perspectives on Beelzebub's Tales"
2006 - Buzzell's "Explorations in Active Mentation"
2007 - Henderson's "Hidden Meanings and Picture-form Language…"
2007 - Taylor's "Philosophy of G.I. Gurdjieff"
2009 - Tamdgidi's "Gurdjieff and Hypnosis"
2011 - Defouw's "Enneagream in the Writings of Gurdjieff"
2012 - Buzzell's "Reflections on Gurdjieff's Whim"
2013 - Buzzell's "New Conception of God"
2013 - Bloor's "To Fathom the Gist, Vol. 1"
So, we had one published in the 60s (Orage's commentaries), one in the 70s (Bennett's), none in the 80s, three in the 90s, 10 in the 00s, and 5 so far in the 10s (including the complete talks by Orage). Just in time for G's 'grandchildren'!
Orage's "Commentaries" (based on talks from 1926-1930) (published in full in 2013)
Bennett's "Talks on Beelzebub's Tales" (based on talks from 1950-1974, published in 1977)
1990 - Challenger's "Philosophy and Art in Gurdjieff's Beelzebub"
1993 - Smith's "Gurdjieff: Cosmic Secrets"
1997 - Buzzell's "Man: A Three-Brained Being"
2000 - Lonsdale's "Gurdjieff and the Arch-Preposterous"
2002 - Hunter/Pogson's "The True Myth"
2002 - Wellbeloved's "Gurdjieff, Astrology & Beelzebub's Tales"
2003 - Tereschenko's "Mister Gurdjieff's Hapax Legomena"
2003 - Holmes's "The Slugs"
2005 - Buzzell's "Perspectives on Beelzebub's Tales"
2006 - Buzzell's "Explorations in Active Mentation"
2007 - Henderson's "Hidden Meanings and Picture-form Language…"
2007 - Taylor's "Philosophy of G.I. Gurdjieff"
2009 - Tamdgidi's "Gurdjieff and Hypnosis"
2011 - Defouw's "Enneagream in the Writings of Gurdjieff"
2012 - Buzzell's "Reflections on Gurdjieff's Whim"
2013 - Buzzell's "New Conception of God"
2013 - Bloor's "To Fathom the Gist, Vol. 1"
So, we had one published in the 60s (Orage's commentaries), one in the 70s (Bennett's), none in the 80s, three in the 90s, 10 in the 00s, and 5 so far in the 10s (including the complete talks by Orage). Just in time for G's 'grandchildren'!
BotB
A Disturbance in the Force
Thank you for posting that list Approaching Infinity. There does seem to be a lot of new research.
The shutters themselves are, as you say, on the one hand "blinding" in the sense that they block Elekilpomagtistzen, however, they also "freely slide in any direction", which allows control over Elekilpomagtistzen (electrogmagnatism?). In this sense the shutters almost seem like a third force in relation to the two represented by the substance elekilopmagtistzen. In any case, the shutters are definitely having a big impact on the flow of substance which apparently has a huge impact on the way a ship can fly through the universe.
what do you think about some of the apparent inexactitudes in the chapter:
-"saint" Venoma is "promoted" to purgatory; isnt one a saint AFTER purgatory?
-venoma apparently finds a way to overcome the law of falling or gravitational pull of planets:
then we find out that :
my point here being that venoma's ship system is deficient exactly where it is supposed to be efficient!
I guess I've made three points in this post:
-the shutters as having two interpretations: unconscious buffers or intentional controls of some sort
-oddity that a saint is put in purgatory despite being a saint and that his name contains the word "venom", a word that occurs elsewhere
-oddity that the ship system is bad at what it is supposed to be good at, particularly in light of the fact that this saint was just promoted! maybe he should be demoted?
Thoughts?
The shutters themselves are, as you say, on the one hand "blinding" in the sense that they block Elekilpomagtistzen, however, they also "freely slide in any direction", which allows control over Elekilpomagtistzen (electrogmagnatism?). In this sense the shutters almost seem like a third force in relation to the two represented by the substance elekilopmagtistzen. In any case, the shutters are definitely having a big impact on the flow of substance which apparently has a huge impact on the way a ship can fly through the universe.
what do you think about some of the apparent inexactitudes in the chapter:
-"saint" Venoma is "promoted" to purgatory; isnt one a saint AFTER purgatory?
-venoma apparently finds a way to overcome the law of falling or gravitational pull of planets:
then we find out that :
my point here being that venoma's ship system is deficient exactly where it is supposed to be efficient!
I guess I've made three points in this post:
-the shutters as having two interpretations: unconscious buffers or intentional controls of some sort
-oddity that a saint is put in purgatory despite being a saint and that his name contains the word "venom", a word that occurs elsewhere
-oddity that the ship system is bad at what it is supposed to be good at, particularly in light of the fact that this saint was just promoted! maybe he should be demoted?
Thoughts?
BotB
A Disturbance in the Force
In reply to another of your posts:
This section you mention is very intersting to me because it shows some of the same qualities our Ship System chapters seem to show. That is, although you didnt quote this part of the section about the pigeon snaring, in that section Gurdjieff presents two seemingly opposite and completely contradictory and yet totally understandable opinions. On the one hand, you go for the big toe because that is where the pigeons strength is and what you want to control; on the other hand, you dont go for the big toe because that is, well, again, where its strength is and you wont be able to control it. This is a very interesting dilemma which relies on information which we dont have such as the exact strength of the pigeon toe or the horsehair snaring it.
I bring this up because there seems to be a very similar situation in the description of venoma's ship system in that it both appears to be a workable idea and yet also does not appear to work at all, being "torturous" and "complicated" to handle and requiring very high Reason. (on a side note, I wonder whether the "torturous-ness" of venoma's ship isnt related to his promotion to purgatory in some way) Though his system has drawbacks it does displace previous ones, though we have a convoluted picture painted in which we can in no way be sure this is really any kind of "breakthrough" at all. So its both great and displaces previous systems and yet is quite cumbersome and complicated. This seems an almost impossible situation, impossible in a very similar way to Beelzebub's description of perpetual motion machines:
Though this kind of perpetual motion "makes sense", its obviously impossible. Energy has to come from outside at some point. Again, very similar to the pigeon toe dilemma of opposites.
One last quote which seems related to this topic, from Beelzebub's Fifth Flight. Beelzebub has descended and befriended Hamolinadir, one of many learned beings collected in Babylon by the crazed Persian King, all of whom have become ensconced in the "burning question" of whether man has a soul or not.
This section you mention is very intersting to me because it shows some of the same qualities our Ship System chapters seem to show. That is, although you didnt quote this part of the section about the pigeon snaring, in that section Gurdjieff presents two seemingly opposite and completely contradictory and yet totally understandable opinions. On the one hand, you go for the big toe because that is where the pigeons strength is and what you want to control; on the other hand, you dont go for the big toe because that is, well, again, where its strength is and you wont be able to control it. This is a very interesting dilemma which relies on information which we dont have such as the exact strength of the pigeon toe or the horsehair snaring it.
I bring this up because there seems to be a very similar situation in the description of venoma's ship system in that it both appears to be a workable idea and yet also does not appear to work at all, being "torturous" and "complicated" to handle and requiring very high Reason. (on a side note, I wonder whether the "torturous-ness" of venoma's ship isnt related to his promotion to purgatory in some way) Though his system has drawbacks it does displace previous ones, though we have a convoluted picture painted in which we can in no way be sure this is really any kind of "breakthrough" at all. So its both great and displaces previous systems and yet is quite cumbersome and complicated. This seems an almost impossible situation, impossible in a very similar way to Beelzebub's description of perpetual motion machines:
Though this kind of perpetual motion "makes sense", its obviously impossible. Energy has to come from outside at some point. Again, very similar to the pigeon toe dilemma of opposites.
One last quote which seems related to this topic, from Beelzebub's Fifth Flight. Beelzebub has descended and befriended Hamolinadir, one of many learned beings collected in Babylon by the crazed Persian King, all of whom have become ensconced in the "burning question" of whether man has a soul or not.
